Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 6

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Previous use of Hebrew variations: Samaritan Hebrew

Here are some examples of Samaritan Hebrew being provided as primary introductory explanations, and then twiddled with (See history at ):

First (it's in "first" place):

And then (it's put in "second" place):

On what basis are these changes and decisions being made? Neither of which is very helpful necessarily. Question: How practical or relevant is it to have "Samaritan Hebrew" as one of four "explanations" of one Hebrew word or phrase? Furthermore, how consistent is it with other articles where Samaritan Hebrew is NOT put in, or is it a harbinger of future additions, when the previously agreed upon amount of names was only TWO Hebrew ones with NO need for an Arabic, Latin, or other possible choice. This just adds to the merry-go-round of dizzying eye-sores that these Hebrew-worded Wikipedia articles are being subjected to, when nothing of the sort happens to other such articles in other languages. IZAK 07:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

RESULT/s of this debate: The "birth" of: Wikipedia:WikiProject Hebrew languages

Please join Wikipedia:WikiProject Hebrew languages. Your input will be crucial.

Hebrew Wikisource and Open Mishnah Project

Sometime ago our good friend User:Jfdwolff remarked (half-seriously) how nice it would be to have a "WikiGemara". ("Just click on Abayye" :-). Well, it hasn't happened quite yet, but we are actually getting there!

I explored the possibility of setting up a Hebrew-domain Wikisource (for source texts), and I am happy to announce that it is now up and running at ויקיטקסט. Any and all kinds of Hebrew (and Hebrew-related) texts can be uploaded there (as long as they are digital and not copyrighted). For those of us who believe in Torah study, if you want you can study and review by typing in what you are learning and making your wiki-edition user-friendly! (For those of you who don't know how to type in Hebrew this probably sounds like a bit much - so learn to type in Hebrew! :-)

Not only that, but Wikisource provides several other opportunities (besides just loading texts):

  • Sources can be linked to relevant encyclopedia articles.
  • In the process of typing-in texts, open-source translations and commentaries can be written too, collaboratively, with a kind of group study taking place on the talk pages.

For an example of the latter possibility, I urge everyone to look at "The Open Mishnah Project," which I have begun in Hebrew and in English. (See the English version for a bit of explanation and the Hebrew version for a Mishnah chart.)

The Hebrew version already has most of Berakhot and the first chapter of Peah. Each Mishnah is formatted for clarity, supplemented by the version of the Rambam (the version he wrote in his own manuscript) and the commentary of the Bartenura (with punctuation). For some mishnayot I've added other commentaries when I had time. For two very special mishnayot that I chose as examples of what can ultimately be done in a project like this, I've added a brief commentary, vowelized text, and extra commentaries. The two special examples in Hebrew are:

Each of these two mishnayot has a link at the bottom to the parallel English version:

I plan to try to add two mishnayot a day (on average) with Hebrew text of the Mishnah (typed in from the Vilna edition and formatted), Rambam's text, and Bartenura. I haven't the time for more than that, but I hope other people too will join in to add other things, including (and especially) a first-draft open English translation, done mishnah-by-mishnah.

Keep in mind that the "daily mishnah" study cycle starts anew this coming Sukkot.

Would love to get feedback!Dovi 13:08, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

All I can say is amazing work, Dovi! Jayjg 15:21, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Dovi, I hope you realise the commitment you've made, but I also hope you realise how big a service you're doing the community. IMHO, MediaWiki is fantastic for hyperlinked online seforim, and I'm looking forward to checking my mar'ei mekomos on he-wikisource in the future. Do you do everything manually, or do you have access to other digital versions (e.g. Kantrovitz' Davka Judaica Classics, possibly subject to copyright). JFW | T@lk 18:48, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In terms of commitment: yes and no. Yes, it took a lot of work to get the thing set up. But no, now that it is up it is not very much work. Even adding two mishnayot per day is only about 15 minutes of work; to study them without typing would take 5-10 minutes anyway. For everybody else, the "wiki" system takes care of the "commitment" problem: just type in whatever you want, when you want, and add it.
As for texts, everything has to be done manually from old editions, because all of the electronic texts are copyrighted. Though perhaps at some point permission could be requested - who knows? (The two mishnayot for which I added niqqud, I used the old Dagesh program's "Auto-nikkud" function.) Typing this manually without a proofreader will mean that there are probably lots of mistakes. But since this is "wiki" - don't complain; if you find a mistake just fix it. The reader is the proofreader.
I think the English-speakers (and typers) here could add two main things (which I don't plan to work on myself):
  • Create good overall introductions to the individual tractates here in Wikipedia, one-by-one beginning with Berakhot, and link them to Wikisource.
  • Translate a mishnah every so often. If a dozen people were to translate, say, just one or two mishnayot each per week, that would be enough to get the ball rolling, and eventually create the world's first "free" (open) translation of the Mishnah. The rough draft could then be improved over time.

Dovi 02:31, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Wow; thank you for this effort. Jdavidb 18:23, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Comments moved from main page

I'm pretty sure these belong here: Jdavidb 18:16, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

    • If it going to be done to Christianity, it is only fair that it is done to Judaism according to Wikipedia's standards. Wikipedia cannot play favorites and label one set of religious beliefs as mythology, and ignore another one. --Josiah 05:49, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Whoa, don't sweat, man! Some of us are on the job from nearly every different religion and POV. The same standards proposed for this issue in WikiProject Judaism are to be applied for Christianity, as well. NPOV is for everyone! Jdavidb 18:16, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • There's a reason those books are called "Apocrypha" - because they aren't generally accepted! I see no problem with how the category is set up.--Josiah 05:56, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • It's from the secular perspective. Not neccessarily anti-semetic. However, it could use improvement since the way it is written if you're looking for anti-semetic material, you'll read a lot of it in it.--Josiah 05:56, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Siddur and Jewish services

I am operating under the idea of siddur be about the history of the siddur, while the article on Jewish services is on the services and siddurim as they exist today (hence, the references on this page to liturgical history.) Yet see my note today; this distinction is up for grabs. Maybe all the content on Jewish services and modern-day siddurim should be moved to Siddur, and a separate article be set up with a more appropriate title, something like Historical development of the Jewish liturgy? RK 17:28, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

Jewish services is to the organisation of the prayers, and siddur about the content. Liturgical history should go under siddur and piyyut, while the institution of thrice-daily prayers in Judaism goes under Jewish services. Wikipedia does not need a seperate article on the historical development of either - these subjects can be covered in the articles with a minimum of overlap. JFW | T@lk 19:05, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. RK
WOW! We agree on something :-) JFW | T@lk 07:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I've been fine with nearly all of the edits you have made on nearly all of the Judaism articles. RK 14:06, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism isn't really real, is it?

Are Nazi's and the KKK really anti-Semitic, or is that just a Zionist/Jew claim? Once again we have someone making the outrageous claim that any use of the word "anti-Semitic" is a POV violation, and that the Nazis and KKK are not really anti-Semitic. For some time we have had trouble with articles on the Anti-Defamation League, Jew and Holocaust denial, with people repeatedly rewriting these articles to make proven instances of anti-Semitism out to be merely Jew accusations. Fortunately these edits have been fought back each time. But we again have a problem with someone damaging the Anti-Defamation League article. Please help out...but be careful. This is not about NPOV policy; this is about someone trying to whitewash Nazis, the KKK, people who spread the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc. This is about someone's agenda to whitewash anti-Semitism, and make it look like those silly Jews are just whining about things wich probably aren't really real. RK 02:52, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

Revert all nasty edits by anons and refuse to talk to them on Talk pages (and perhaps even reverting them). Eventually, they will go away and go terrorise some blog somewhere. JFW | T@lk 08:03, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I philosophically oppose editing Talk: pages to remove discussion one disapproves of, and in the case of anti-Semites, their own words are often the best weapons against them. Jayjg 16:32, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well, we each choose our own best weapons. RK 19:06, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is suprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four**Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again. (Exit and exeunt)
Source -The Spanish Inquisition Sketch from "Monty Python's Flying Circus"

Jews & Greece

Hello from Thessaloniki, Greece, the city once famous for its Sephardic majority. I'm particularly interested in writing articles about the history, the life & the culture of Greek Jews, and I'd invite you to review my articles including Yevanika.

A short question: What's Hebrew for "Greece"? "Yevan-" or something? Can you provide the name both in Hebrew and Latin alphabets? Thank you. Etz Haim 11:41, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • Hi Etz Haim: Traditionally, Greece has been known as Yavan in Jewish history and scholarship. I am placing your question on Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism where it will get more attention. Please join. Best wishes, IZAK 03:30, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Indeed, Yavan, in Hebrew letters [יון]. Gadykozma 11:59, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A non-controversial topic :)

Have an easy fast and a Joyous Sukkot :) --Josiah 09:31, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)


People here might want to take a look at the recent contributions by editor, especially the Melchizedek article. Jayjg 22:54, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Changes on the Holocaust article

The Holocaust article has undergone some changes in the Revisionists and deniers section that don't look right to me. Please review them. Etz Haim 20:44, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A more sophisticated attempt to slip in denial theology. Now reverted. Jayjg 22:21, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it was reverted back to Srrostum's version. BTW, is it denial theology or politics? I'd say it's rather the second, with most of deniers being of the far right. Etz Haim 09:32, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ladino conference

I'm attending the 3rd International Conference on Judeo-Spanish Studies, here in Thessaloniki. The last day is tommorow. If you have any requests, let me know in time. (I'd post this earlier, but the damn database was locked.) Etz Haim 19:06, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to lots of source material and references in the Ladino and Judeo-Spanish entries! JFW | T@lk 19:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)