Category talk:Cyberpunk films

Category:Dystopian films

This category should have the Category:Dystopian films set. For some reason User:Taeyebaar keeps on reverting my addition however.
@Taeyebaar: I have now explained multiple times that postcyberpunk is not cyberpunk -> it's post cyberpunk; a cyberpunk derivative/spin-off (not a subgenre or anything).
Where ALL cyberpunk movies are dystopian; postcyberpunk films aren't necessarily. That's why they should be removed from this category and moved over to Category:Postcyberpunk films if they aren't dystopian or simply be removed from this category as they're not cyberpunk...haven't spotted any such faulty categorized article though.
I already told you this over and over. When reverting you need to actually go into the arguments I've made instead of simply restating the previous rationale which I already said is about postcyberpunk and not cyberpunk. (e.g. the last edit-summary "not according to the section I linked" [the section is about postcyberpunk])
Also cyberpunk is not centered on "humanoid cybernetics". --Fixuture (talk) 09:58, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

And I explained in an edit summary and provided a link to the section that affirmed cyberpunk films not necessarily being dystopian. I am not arguing about post-cyberpunk here. Cyberpunk is to do with cybernetics and other artificial intelligence, not necessarily dystopians, though they commonly overlap. --Taeyebaar (talk) 17:02, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Another source for my arguments [1]--Taeyebaar (talk) 17:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

@Taeyebaar:

And I explained in an edit summary and provided a link to the section that affirmed cyberpunk films not necessarily being dystopian.

Yea and that article you keep citing is not the Cyberpunk-article but the Cyberpunk derivatives one. You keep ignoring what I'm saying, I addressed exactly that here:

I have now explained multiple times that postcyberpunk is not cyberpunk -> it's post cyberpunk; a cyberpunk derivative/spin-off (not a subgenre or anything).

You have not cited any other article than the one above.

Cyberpunk is to do with cybernetics and other artificial intelligence, not necessarily dystopians, though they commonly overlap

It has do with all of them. Cyberpunk is necessarily dystopian and if it isn't dystopian it isn't cyberpunk.

But thanks for the source for...well actually my argument:

A conclusion is reached that cyberpunk is necessarily dystopic, and that trying to remove the dystopia from cyberpunk would be like trying to separate the words "cyber" and "punk" from their compounded whole.

and (in the conclusion): Cyberpunk itself is necessarily dystopic. The entire concept of cyberpunk is so deeply rooted in dystopian themes that were one to strip them away one would be left with essentially nothing recognisable as cyberpunk.

--Fixuture (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah, genres. I agree here that cyberpunk isn't necessarily dystopian -- or at least, certain views of cyberpunk aren't. Genres, especially one like cyberpunk, are hard to define, which is why film noir for instance is really hard to nail down. So even between cyberpunk and postcyberpunk, there's more blur than would be ideal, since while some would call cyberpunk a subgenre of dystopian fiction, others might simply call dystopias as one frequent trait of cyberpunk. I've seen sources distill it to simple slogans like "high tech, low life", and the Ghost in the Shell film has been cited fairly frequently as cyberpunk despite being a fairly loose fit as dystopia fiction.

My preferred option would be to avoid the dystopia category here, unless there is very broad support for it being dystopia and very little against. Similarly, I'd only really include films in the category that have outright been called, by reliable sources, cyberpunk. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 01:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

@The Millionth One: Cyberpunk as a artistic genre is necessarily dystopian. As a cultural movement it isn't which is why that movement has ushered in postcyberpunk which is an artistic genre which isn't necessarily dystopian. Not sure what you're referring to with "certain views of cyberpunk" but certain views of cyberpunk aren't relevant when cyberpunk films are concerned. All genres are hard to nail down and all words' boundaries are blurred, which is why one needs to exercise much caution when being active in the realm of Wikipedia.

since while some would call cyberpunk a subgenre of dystopian fiction, others might simply call dystopias as one frequent trait of cyberpunk

imo dystopian fiction is less really a genre than a property or trait of fiction. But either way that doesn't change anything about cyberpunk being necessarily dystopian - all works of the cyberpunk genre, because otherwise they'd miss a defining trait of cyberpunk which would make them if anything "cyberpunk-inspired" or "postcyberpunk".

Ghost in the shell is an interesting and rare case as it's just when postcyberpunk began to emerge (with it being part of that split off). It's still dystopian enough to be cyberpunk (consider how humans get hacked and used as pawns by puppet players etc.) but also a cyberpunk with a new kind of "realism" so to say and with a kind of "subtle euphorism" for what's becoming real and possible.

If a film isn't dystopian enough it's not cyberpunk. If you think that's already the case for Ghost in the shell move it over to Category:Postcyberpunk films (but I don't think that's needed).

Also see the website Taeyebaar posted above which also calls cyberpunk necessarily dystopian (as countless other people, papers and sites).

--User:Fixuture (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• User:Fixuture, I don't have enough time to debate this, but when I come back I will sort this out. Cyberpunk and Dystopian fiction are two separate genres that commonly overlap but are definitely not the same. I suggest you read definitions of both. One is about cybernetics and other cyber-related stuff. The other is about societies gone bad but not necessarily on cyber technology. It's just as social science fiction overlaps with dystopia, but they're not necessarily the same.--Taeyebaar (talk) 19:02, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• @User:Fixuture I think this is the best definition of cyberpunk:

Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.

— Lawrence Person

--Taeyebaar (talk) 18:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)