Talk:Bai Chongxi

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Bai Chongxi. -- Kjkolb 11:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC) Pai Ch'ung-hsi → Bai Chongxi – noncontroversial move to standard pinyin spelling per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles) but edit history requires an admin. -AjaxSmack 17:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Votes[edit]

  • Oppose, according to
    Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Names
    , you should not use pinyin because it is a Taiwan related article. 132.205.44.134 23:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bai was not a "personage from Taiwan" and the article should therefore follow Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Names. - AjaxSmack 02:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
  • As an officer of the Republic of China, this seems to be an inappropriate romanization of his name to use. As a high ranking one, he was most likely noted in places in the West using the Wade-Giles representation when he was still in uniform. 132.205.44.134 23:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Other "officers of the ROC" such as Wang Jingwei, Zhang Xueliang, or Du Yuming are listed according to pinyin spellings unless they are "personages from Taiwan" or are better known for their actions or career in Taiwan. - AjaxSmack 02:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Any officer that fought the Communists might object to be rendered using a communist invented romanization. Further his son uses Wade-Giles. 132.205.44.134 01:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rise to power[edit]

The article doesn't say how he managed to accrete any soldiers in the first place. Did he just join Li Tsung-Jen's army, or did he possess his own troops beforehand (as implied by allying)? Did he inherit them? Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 02:05, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pinyin vs. Wade-Giles[edit]

  • Oppose use of HYPY - though born in China, he was indeed a personage of Taiwan (or of the Republic of China); such people's names rarely conform to Hanyu Pinyin. Most conform to Wade-Giles, with various exceptions. Just as Sun Yat-sen should not be categotized under Sun Yixian, Pai's name should not be spelled in HYPY. {Bubbha 02:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)}[reply]

Since 1979 (the official adoption of Pinyin), three-quarters 55% of references in books to the individual in question use the Pinyin spelling rather than some form of the Wade-Giles spelling.

The closer you get to the present, the more lopsided this ratio gets. 93% 91% of references in the last 10 years use the Pinyin spelling:

The article should remain at the up-to-date common name. cab 02:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment above modified to include "pai ch'ung hsi" spelling figures as well; the conclusion remains the same. cab 02:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV in article[edit]

"Muslims do not believe in superstition (see Shirk (Islam)) and his religion may have influenced Bai to take action against the Idols in the temples and the superstitious practices rampant in China."

This is clearly someones POV and not properly sourced information. I think someone should fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.197.105 (talk) 08:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Bai chongxi.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Page 517

http://books.google.com/books?ei=pOOlUMbnI4Tl0QGazYCADw&id=1vwZAAAAYAAJ&dq=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&q=++socialism+resembles#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=pOOlUMbnI4Tl0QGazYCADw&id=1vwZAAAAYAAJ&dq=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&q=Kwangsi++socialism#search_anchor

Title Current Biography Yearbook, Volume 3 Contributor H.W. Wilson Company Publisher H. W. Wilson Co., 1942 Original from the University of Virginia Digitized May 1, 2008

http://books.google.com/books?id=bLSDTRdhgKMC&q=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&dq=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pOOlUMbnI4Tl0QGazYCADw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg

Title Current Biography: Who's News and Why, 1942 Authors Maxine Block, E. Mary Trow Edition reprint Publisher Hw Wilson Company, 1942 ISBN 0824204794, 9780824204792 Length 940 pages

In November 1935 Li Tsung-jen and Pai Tsung-hsi did not even attend the Fifth National Kuomintang Congress, and at the ... Li Tsung-jen used to call the system of government introduced in Kwangsi "national socialism," although it resembles ...

Page 23

http://books.google.com/books?id=XG1xAAAAMAAJ&q=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&dq=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pOOlUMbnI4Tl0QGazYCADw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBw

http://books.google.com/books?ei=pOOlUMbnI4Tl0QGazYCADw&id=XG1xAAAAMAAJ&dq=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&q=national+socialism+quite#search_anchor

Li Tsung-jen calls the politico-economic set-up "national- socialism" — though it is quite different from the Nazi brand. Under this benevolent administration Kwangsi became known to foreigners as the "model" province. A well trained and ...

Title The Chinese army: its organization and military efficiency, by Evans Fordyce Carlson ... I.P.R. inquiry series Inquiry series, Institute of Pacific Relations Authors Evans Fordyce Carlson, Yuquan Wang Publisher International secretariat, Institute of Pacific relations, 1940 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Sep 10, 2008 Length 137 pages


Page 208

http://books.google.com/books?ei=a-alUIaAAqm70QH_1IH4Cg&id=MLQTAAAAIAAJ&dq=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&q=li+tsung+jen+national+socialists#search_anchor

National Socialists of Kwangsi Provii led by two of China's topnotch n men : Generals Li Tsung-jen an Chung-hsi. These men are intense tionalistic, and have the interests ( people at heart. General U has siit since the Communists gave up thi ...

Title The China Monthly Review, Volumes 88-89 Publisher J.W. Powell, 1939

Page 208

http://books.google.com/books?ei=a-alUIaAAqm70QH_1IH4Cg&id=7ylQl35VwhkC&dq=li+tsung+jen+national+socialism&q=li+tsung+jen+national+socialists#search_anchor

The National Socialists of Kwangsi Province are led by two of China's topnotch military men : Generals Li Tsung-jen and Pai Chung-hsi. These men are intensely nationalistic, and have the interests of the people at heart. General Li has said ...

Title China Monthly Review, Volume 88 Publisher Millard Publishing Company, Incorporated, 1939 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Jul 30, 2009

Page 459

http://books.google.com/books?ei=u-OlUOyeLMu_0QH9y4DQCA&id=7gUWAQAAMAAJ&dq=Pai+chung+hsi+national+socialism&q=Pai+chung+hsi+national+socialists#search_anchor

The facts show that the Communists and the National Socialists (led by Li Tsung- jen and Pai Chung-hsi) have been among his most loyal supporters, and have made monumental contributions to the successful Chinese resistance. It is the ...

Title Amerasia, Volume 3 Editor Philip J. Jaffe Publisher Amerasia, Incorporated, 1940 Original from Indiana University Digitized Dec 2, 2010

Page 138

http://books.google.com/books?ei=3umlUKSQC5S60AHi_YHgDA&id=fB3pAAAAIAAJ&dq=Pai+chung+hsi+national+socialism&q=Pai+chung+hsi+national+socialist#search_anchor

And when the special train drew alongside it contained not only General Li but General Pai Chung- hsi, Deputy Chief of ... their administration in Kwangsi was called a rightist government, and in others it was termed national socialist ( though ...

Title Twin stars of China: a behind-the-scenes story of China's valiant struggle for existence, by a U.S. Marine who lived & moved with the people Author Evans Fordyce Carlson Publisher Dodd, Mead & Company, 1940 Length 331 pages

Page 324

http://books.google.com/books?ei=3umlUKSQC5S60AHi_YHgDA&id=t-XVAAAAMAAJ&dq=Pai+chung+hsi+national+socialism&q=Pai+chung+hsi+#search_anchor

Pai Chung-hsi leads a revolt of the Chinese southwest against the Central Government. Acting on the orders of Chiang Kai-shek and a Party Congress which had assembled in Nanking.

Title World Affairs Interpreter, Volume 7 Contributors Los Angeles University of International Relations, University of Southern California Publisher Los Angeles University of International Relations, 1936 Original from Indiana University Digitized May 21, 2009

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/csmonitor_historic/access/289605912.html?dids=289605912:289605912&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=Sep+03%2C+1936&author=&pub=Christian+Science+Monitor&desc=China's+Troubled+Waters&pqatl=google

Rajmaan (talk) 07:06, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

World war ii and civil war[edit]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=kTUdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HCMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5801,722627&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=lzwaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GA0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5777,5417232&hl=en

In recent weeks General Pai Chung-hsi, vice-chief of the general staff and ... The moving of Ma Pu-chung, thelocal Kansu Mohammedan leader,and his army ...

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/csmonitor_historic/access/278408032.html?dids=278408032:278408032&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=Aug+29%2C+1942&author=By+Norman+Soong&pub=Christian+Science+Monitor&desc=China+Builds+In+Northwest+While+Fighting&pqatl=google

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00816F6345D1B7A93C5A81789D85F4C8385F9

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10715FD3E5A12718DDDA00894DA415B868AF1D3

Rajmaan (talk) 02:11, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Early Career[edit]

http://books.google.com/books?id=tCA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA35#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tCA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA37#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bai's plan to colonize Xinjiang

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00C1EFB3A5B167A93C0A81789D95F4C8285F9

Rajmaan (talk) 02:09, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Expired references[edit]

This article is one of many that cites sources such as Time magazine articles from the 1920s, or John Gunther's travel books from the 1930s. These sources, all popular journalism, are long past the 'best used by' date, and should be carefully avoided. Recent biographical studies of Bai do not say that he 'released' Zhou Enlai during the April 12 Shanghai Incident, and the Time reference to Bai as 'hewer of communist heads' is limited to the one Time article. I've deleted these antediluvian sources and claims, please try to find more current materials, unless you are really familar with the period or the subject. Rgr09 (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the entire article has been put together from period news articles and popular histories. It seems as if previous editors have been trying to write the history of the period themselves, rather than find a reliable secondary source on Bai. The article needs a total rewrite, which I unfortunately do not have the time to do. Sorry! Rgr09 (talk) 13:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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