Talk:Barabar Caves

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A Passage to India[edit]

The fictional Marabar Caves in the novel and later film, A Passage to India are based on the Barabar Caves. (Coachtripfan (talk) 11:40, 13 October 2013 (UTC))[reply]

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These archive links all go to a 'Page has moved' page. I have not been able to track down the references by searching on the British Library site. Leschnei (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Persian import[edit]

the article claims the following

Import

Monumental Achaemenid polish, 5th century BCE. This remarkable and large-scale polishing technique, and in many ways without parallel, seems nevertheless to have been derived from polishing techniques in Achaemenid statuary, the stone-working techniques having spread in India after the destruction of the empire by Alexander the Great in 330 BC and the displacement of Persian and Perso-Greek artists and technicians [16]. This know-how seems to have disappeared again after the Maurya period, none of the later caves such as the Ajanta caves having this characteristic of polished surfaces [16][17].

The very act of digging artificial caves in the rock, of which the Barabar caves represent the oldest case in India, was probably inspired by the caves dug in the rock of the Achaemenids, as is the case in Naqsh-e Rostam.[18]. It seems, however, that in India there had been an ancient tradition of ascetics using caves.[19].

Local development

Polished stone ax, India, 2800-1500 BCE. According to Gupta, the polishing of rocks could have a local origin, citing the existence of polishing technologies of the neolithic, as visible in various stone tools such as axes. There is, however, no trace of evolution from these neolitical tools to polished stone architecture, and the Barabar caves are essentially a sudden technological break with no local history, suggesting the import of these techniques from another culture. Nor are there any known examples of stone architecture in India before the Maurya period. [20]. According to Gupta, the Son Bhandar Caves could be such an intermediate step, although relatively unique, and subject to questioning its chronology, since it is generally dated to the 2nd-4th centuries of our era

Persy brown's book on ancient indian architecture clearly states that the technology was purely indian and had nothing to do with the persians, the article itself states that This remarkable and large-scale polishing technique, and in many ways without parallelderived eventually from the persians, how can persians achieve a mirror polishing which was not even achieved in their own homeland, secondly, persian empire had already collapsed well before the date of these caves, so why are persian artisans been given credit for this. Persy brown's book gives few examples of widespread use of indian polishing techniques by stating piprahwa's crystal fish bowl reliquery not to mention the other gem stones and beads which were made with the same level of polishing showing, it was a very local affair, and most certainly indian artisans were involved, this article doesnt seem to be taking all the info into account before making persian claims to be responsible for these techniques. I think persians themselves heavily relied on egyptian artisans for this polishing technique because there is also no president and evolution of persian polishing in persian artifacts, they just appear suddenly after persians capture egypt. The article also makes misleading claims that the polishing art disappeared which is very false, the art continued to exist well after mauryas and can be see in several indian temples more than a thousand years later. Even persy brown's own book fails to mention that buddha's reliquary from piprahwa stupa dating from the time of Buddha himself made from soapstone was dug out and it was made in the very similar way the later mauryan reliquaries were made and were also polished in the same fashion, not to mention the stone masonry of the rajgir era remains which date to pre mauryan times. This totally falsifies any assumption of stone working techniques being imported into india. 115.135.130.182 (talk) 21:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Regarding Tourism Aspect Section Deletion.[edit]

Hi, We have noticed that you deleted Whole tourism section . We as team are working on project to promote tourism to barabar & nagarjuni caves. So we have also done field visit and currently we are working on tourism aspect with every thing and n consideration . So could you please elaborate why you deleted ? Abhisal2408 (Diskussion) 12:37, 24. Nov. 2021 (CET)

Hello dear @Abhisal2408: this is concerning this edit here, right? As you may see from version diff:
  • I renamed the paragraph, because we don't really do CAPSLOCK SCREAMING in our headlines - that is mostly considered bad style;
  • I removed the coordinates and the link to Google, because the coordinates are already available at the top right of the page, where it links to the neutral Geohack page that allows you to choose your mapping platform;
  • I removed the blatant copyright violation of the picture of the GoogleMap which is not open source (if a map is really that much needed here, please upload a screenshot from free open source OSM.org, but I don't really think it is necessary);
  • I condensed the accessability information and provided correct links towards the wikipedia articles about the national roads and the nearby towns.
However, if you wish to improve tourist information on the destination, you may add an external link towards the website that shows information on guiding tours, opening times and fares. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a platform to promote any cause, so this should remain a link to an external site of such value. Furthermore, I am not personally a user of the Wikivoyage site, but to promote tourism a guide for your whole region on that platform might be even more valuable, than in Wikipedia itself which is an encyclopedia and not a travel guide. That said, here is a link to the Eastern India page, and Barabar is mentioned in passing in the article about Gaya.
I do hope this satisfies your request, and wish you well and best of luck in all your endeavors. --Enyavar (Diskussion) 13:40, 24. Nov. 2021 (CET)
thank you so much for your valuable insight, will keep it in mind. my concern is that without having tourism section the barabar caves wikipedia is incomplete ,after reading this people will crave for the it's tourism sustainibility .AS we have done field visit of barabar caves we have exclusive pictures & and on ground information .and we as group think that we can add value to this page.
we are still compiling information on historical & tourism of barabar caves. we are making portfolio of it. so i think there should be tourism section. And if you can please suggest other name than tourism aspect you are welcome. And we do think onsight information is more valuable than bookish one.
At last we request you to please consult us before deleting our addition. Will need your help in addition as we are new to wikipedia not fully aware rules & regulation.
Thank you so much for valuble advices on the behalf of project my group. --Abhisal2408 (Diskussion) 11:08, 27. Nov. 2021 (CET)
dear @Abhisal2408:, I moved the discussion here, so that everyone who is involved with the Barabar Caves article may see it. My only concern was the removal of a copyrighted Google-Map, and the other corrections just made sense to me in context. I have to point again to the Wikivoyages site. If you collate tourism-related material in an article on Wikivoyages, that article would then be linked from the Wikipedia page. --Enyavar (talk) 10:19, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Precision.[edit]

Just a question. Listening to a discussion on these caves, and some discussion of the precision of the geometry. Variously either fraction of a mm, or fraction of a degree. Not finding any source that approaches these types of claims. 23.235.75.234 (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

These claims seem to be flying around. I'm not sure where they come from, either - possibly from somewhere credible or possibly out of thin air. Wombat140 (talk) 11:43, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stone axes[edit]

Apparently, this section was unclear - during a fringe-historical-theories discussion on Reddit, multiple people have been reading it as saying that the Barabar Caves were polished in Neolithic times with stone axes, and understandably laughing like drains. Maybe the edit has clarified it a bit! Wombat140 (talk) 11:39, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maurya or Sunga, etc.[edit]

User:Rishikaditi It looks like, you've made a lot of edits (claiming that the caves were made during the Sunga dynasty rather than the Maurya dynasty, for instance) without citing any references for them (in fact, you left the original references for it being the Mauryas in place!), and Wikipedia's rules do require information to be supported by references. Do you have any references supporting the edits you've made? If so, what are they? Possibly, it'll be clearer how this is supposed to be done if you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability .

It seems like, what you said may be true for all I know (I hesitate to contradict an Indian about an article about India!), but judging by your contributions history you haven't quite got the hang of how Wikipedia works. Wombat140 (talk) 14:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's worse than that, as he has at points changed dynasties but left the dates in brackets just after! Hopeless - I've reverted. Johnbod (talk) 14:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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