Talk:Bossa nova

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Contradiction[edit]

This article seperately names "Bim-Bom" and "Chega de Saudade" as the first Bossa Nova song. >>The first bossa nova song was titled "Bim-Bom". Later.. >>The first bossa nova song, "Chega de Saudade," They can't both be the first. A fairer account would be that BimBom is the earliest known Bossa Nova compoisition, whist Chega is the first recorded Bossa Nova song.

Needs embedded music examples[edit]

This page needs an embedded music example if people feel it's appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.202.1.193 (talk) 16:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC) Absolutely -- NEEDS audio samples to demo the diff with samba, etc. sheesh ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.203.66.118 (talk) 17:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Lyrics[edit]

How many lyrics can be displayed without violating copright?

As far as I know, the copyright law in Brazil doesn't consider a crime to provide the lyrics if there isn't any form of monetary gain, so, I'd say this isn't a problem. (but, of course, I could be wrong)Diana Prallon (talk) 22:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
US copyright law is in effect because Wikimedia's servers reside there. 77.250.97.191 (talk) 00:47, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Image[edit]

If someone would like to fix the image for me, I can't get it right and must sleep now.Hyacinth

  • Image:Basic bossa-nova guitar rhythm.bmp
  • Image:Basic bossa nova guitar rhythm.bmp

I'm not sure what the problem is, but anyway, I've trimmed it and reuploaded as a PNG: Image:Basic bossa nova guitar rhythm.PNG Both of the above images are BMPs -- Tarquin 09:37, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC) Yes, trimming would have been part of the problem, thanks for that. The picture actually won't display on my computer, and I would have no idea why. Hyacinth 09:41, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC) Hey whats the easiest way to create an image of music anyways, becuase I'd like to add some music on several pages. Nathan Wonnacott 01:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Dance[edit]

This text was added to the page Bossa Nova (dance) but it is not about dance. I don't know enough about it to integrate it into this page smoothly.

"Bossa Nova(dance)often referred to simply as bossa or bossa nova jazz/bossa nova lounge is often grouped with Acid Jazz(Nu-Jazz). In slang the genre is referred to as bossa nil beat(nil= NL for Nossa Lounge) or 'the bossa som beat' or embossa. This type of dance music is the remixing of music by Brazilian Jazz artist of the 60's and 70's. The name Bossa Nova, which in Portuguese means New Way, is jazz style music from Brazil that for a time replaced samba music.

To some extent djs like Mark Farina have used the bossa nova sound on their mix cds to form part of the mushroom jazz sound. Other artist that are more identified with the bossa som beat are Nicola Conte, Pablo Casiguez, Ranier Truby Trio, Bossa Nostra, Paul Emetrez, Vegas Lounge, Jazzanova..." Rmhermen 21:46, May 25, 2004 (UTC)

Jazz vs Debussy[edit]

  • "In the sphere of what could be called more popular arts, bossa nova mixed Debussy, Cole Porter, and traditional samba to send the 'Girl from Ipanema' swinging around the world."
    • Hallam, Elizabeth ed. (2000). "Rephrasing identity in Brazil", by Reynaud, Ana in Cultural Encounters: Representing Otherness. Routledge. ISBN 0415202795.
  • "It is often claimed that Jobim was inspired by cool jazz and bebop. Not true; he actually preferred the Glenn Miller Orchestra to the experimentations of Charlie Parker. According to Jobim himself, his major influences were Debussy, Villa-Lobos, Stravinsky, Chopin - and samba."
    • Draffen, Andrew (2001). Lonely Planet Rio De Janeiro, p. 130. Lonely Planet Publications. ISBN 1864503068.
  • "One of the musicians he [Claudio] listened to, as did Jobim and Gilberto, was Gerry Mulligan. In 1959, Claudio said, the Brazilian label called Musidisc was issuign the Pacific Jazz records in Brazil.
  • 'Everybody was into West Coast jazz then,' he said. 'These records were issued by Musidisc there. Any other stuff would be imported and harder to find. That's why West Coast jazz influenced the bossa nova people that much. I am quite sure that Chet Baker was an influence. The arrangments of the period all sound as if they were influenced by Bud Shank or Gerry Mulligan or those cats. And mainly Mulligan.' Virtually every musician involved in the bossa nova movement attests to this North American influence.
  • Jobim, however, late in his life, tended to minimize the American influence. He told an interviewer that Debussy and Villa-Lobos were very strong influences on him. He continued: 'As for jazz, real jazz, I never had much access. What we listened to here were those big bands. Real jazz here was something for collectors, for rich playboy types....'
  • 'I'm not much of a connoisseur of jazz.' Maybe. But he liked working with American jazzmen such as Ron Carter and Urbie Green. 'Later on, I saw that purists here were saying that bossa nova was a copy of American jazz. When these people would say bossa nova's harmony was based on jazz, I thought it was funny because this same harmony already existed in Debussy. No way is it American. To say a ninth chord is an American invention is absurd. These altered eleventh and thirteenth chords, with all these added notes, you can't say they're an American invention. This kind of this is as much South American as it is North Ameridcan. Americans took to bossa nova because they thought it was interesting. If it was a mere copy of jazz, they wouldn't be interested. They're tired of copies of jazz. There's Swedish jazz, French jazz, German jazz--Germans are full of jazz.'...
  • ...He was right, of course, that this kind of harmony was not an American invention. But what he told that interviewer is at variance with what he told me in earlier years, particulary about the influence of Mulligan. A simple example: Roberto Menescal's charming "O Barquinho" is based on the chord changes of Ralph Burns' "Early Autumn". And the chart on it in the JoAo Gilberto record, which I have always assumed Jobim wrote, sounds like the Stan Kenton band.
  • And Dori Caymmi (guitarist, arranger, composer, and son of Dorival Caymmi), said: 'Shorty Rogers for me was the inventor of bossa nova because he played the way JoAo and Tom played.'...
  • ...One is forced to reflect that JoAo Gilberto's soft vibratoless singing may have been influenced by that of Chet Baker. It was also influenced--and he told me this long ago--by the French singer from Martinique, Henri Salvador, as well as some earlier Brazilian singers. And so in the longer genealogy, one is forced to conclude that Gil Evans and Claude Thornhill were among the important influences on bossa nova, because of their influence on Mulligan.
  • ...Jobim met Gil Evans just once. Gil's widow, Anita, recalled the encounter. 'Gil and I,' Anita said, 'were at a party at the apartment of a painter we knew. Jobim was there. When he saw Gil, he got down on his knees and walked across the room on his knees and kissed Gil's feet.'
  • 'Gil was blown away.'"
    • Lees, Gene (1999). Singers and the Song II, p.229-30. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195122089.
  • Anyone listening to the Chet Baker recordings (especially the vocals) can hear a remarkable similarity to the style of Astrud Gilberto! Can someon please explore this possibility or bring to light any research? thanks--Tednor 09:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Bossa nova = samba + Debussy?[edit]

The anonymous user's assertion (in jazz and Latin jazz) that "bossa nova = samba + Debussy" is absurd. The "Debussy and Ravel vs. Chet Baker and Gerry Mulligan" bossa nova debate has simmered for years, but it should be clear that bossa nova's debt to the French romantic impressionist composers is strictly through Jobim, because he was classically trained in the piano. But he was basically the only one with that background, and people tend mention the Debussy reference just to give bossa a pedigree.
Granted, the influence is legitimate, and those familiar 7(13)-7(b13)-m7 progressions can be clearly heard in the classical stuff. But Joao Gilberto, Carlos Lyra, and Roberto Menescal weren't into Debussy, they dug Barney Kessel. Even pianists Sergio Mendes, Johnny Alf, and Joao Donato dug Stan Kenton. And everyone liked Sinatra. -- Paul Richter 03:25, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That information, as well as, or through, the quotes above, would be great in the article as it settles any dispute regarding the equation in my opinion. Hyacinth 04:19, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See also "The Diminished Seventh Chord as Prolongational Agent in Bach, Chopin and Jobim" (Norman Carey, Eastman School of Music). For an in-depth and well researched analysis of bossa nova, choro and links between France/French composers and Brazil/Brazilian composers see writings of Daniella Thompson (e.g., http://www.joaogilberto.org/daniella.htm and http://daniellathompson.com/). The influence, direct or indirect (as a conduit), of Villa-Lobos on bossa nova should not be underestimated. With respect to Debussy: "Tom Jobim’s “Chovendo na Roseira” was influenced by Claude Debussy (it quotes his famous Rêverie and La plus que lente) to such an extent that its original title before it had acquired lyrics was “Children’s Games,” in honor of the French composer’s Children’s Corner." (see daniellathompson.com). Gasparotti mauro (Above comment written 03:42, 15 March 2006 by 66.236.28.6)

Delisted GA[edit]

Only one reference given, which isn't even an inline citation, doesn't even indicate whether it even references the article at all, much less references it well, which is a requirement for Good Article status. Great expansion of references will be necessary. Homestarmy 19:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

External Links[edit]

I was reading this article and although I'm a Pixies fan it just doesn't make sense to put Bossanova in the external links. The album has no meaningful reference to Bossa Nova (except the verse "I want to bossanova with you" - from memory). And the album is already listed in the disambiguation page.

Mainstream popularity[edit]

"Significant in Brazil, but not as popular there as it was in the United States, Western Europe, and Japan." That's the greatest stupidity I've ever read in Wikipedia. Bossa Nova is clearly more popular in Brazil than anywhere else. Changed. --El Chemaniaco 14:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

One has to note that it was exceedingly popular in Eastern Europe as well. --Humanophage 09:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Facts[edit]

"To this day in Brazil, the word "bossa" when used alone can still be a reference to "style" or "flair", as it was in the days when "bossa nova" was created." There's no need for a citation here. El Chemaniaco 14:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think "attitude" is a good translation. In a Brazillian podcast by BBC's Gilles Peterson most all of the Brazillian artists translate the term to mean a "New Attitude" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.22.19.194 (talk) 17:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
I agree completely with El Chemaniaco. The slang "bossa" was used in early 2000's, only in a few places, and it is neither in use anymore. Definitely, there is no need for a citation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zezojardim (talkcontribs).
I've never heard anyone under seventy (at least) saying "bossa" meaning "style" or "flair", or in any sentence where it wasn't a short term for Bossa Nova. So I find it a bit hard to believe it is still in use. So this information really doesn't apply at all. Diana Prallon (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

"First Single"[edit]

The sentence about the first Bossa single makes that claim for "Girl from Ipanema". While that was a smash in the United States, making lots of people aware of Bossa Nova for the first time, Stan Getz had an American hit single two years before with "Desafinado" (according to allmusic.com). And Caetano Veloso has talked about the impact on Brazilian musicians of João Gilberto's first single ca. 1959, 'Chega de Saudade.' Not to split hairs, but while "Girl from Ipanema" can be described as the first American bossa nova hit featuring a vocal, it's not the genre's first single, in America or elsewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.85.228.129 (talk) 20:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC). That's not splitting hairs, and it doesn't even hold the distinction of being the first vocal bossa nova single in the U.S., unless one insists on the authenticity of a Brazilian musician's involvement. "The Girl from Ipanema" reach the American top 15 in July, 1964, and was preceded by three top-15 singles which actually included "bossa nova" in their titles: "Bossa Nova Baby" by Elvis Presley in November 1963; "Fly Me to the Moon, Bossa Nova" by Joe Harnell and "Blame It on the Bossa Nova" by Eydie Gorme, both February 1963. I'm inclined to edit the statement out, or correct around it, but it is so well embedded in the surrounding text that it's difficult. Any suggestions? Fcgier (talk) 01:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Failure for 0.7[edit]

This article, at this time, has failed for inclusion in Release Version 0.7 due to the weasel words tags and neutrality tags. If the article can properly be edited to satisfy those tags, please resubmit for inclusion. --Ozgod 03:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.bitencourt.net/en/5-bossa/index.html[edit]

Dear moderators, Please take a deep breath and go to this page http://www.bitencourt.net/en/5-bossa/index.html Now please tell me in the name of God: is this page spam, yes or no??? It's a unique slideshow about Bossa Nova with many rare photos of artists which you won't find anywhere else on the internet and with important information about this musical movement!!! I'm a brazilian musician, expert in Bossa Nova, and know what I'm talking about. So please, not because you have the power to delete or block things here you should do this all the time just because it may be fun or so. 1. Inform yourself about Bossa Nova 2. Visit this page 3. Compare 4. See that it's for God's sake NOT spam!!! If you delete this link again then know that YOU and not me are destroying the wikipedia idea, just because you think you have the power to delete things. Bossa Nova is my life and I want the world to know as much as possible about it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.17.64.245 (talkcontribs).

Adding external links is not improving the wikipedia, adding links only is, under the wikipedia definition, spamming. Please read our spam guideline. We are writing an encyclopedia here, not a linkfarm. --Dirk Beetstra T C 23:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


Gal Costa[edit]

Please stop removing Gal Costa's name from the list. Like it or not, Bossa Nova is, and always has been part of her repertoire. In fact, during her appearances in the United States (spanning 30+ years), she has sung nothing but Bossa Nova. I would suspect the same is probably true for her concerts in Japan and Israel, too, or at least a large part of those concerts. Consequences2 02:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Tom cigar.jpg[edit]

The image File:Tom cigar.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --16:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Latin Rhythms master article?[edit]

It'd be great if someone would create, or at least start, a general article with notated (and, ideally, audio) examples of the major Latin rhythms, each of which could link to specific articles about it. It seems like such an obvious idea, but I've never seen anything like this anywhere. There are so many wonderful Latin American rhythms, and traditions associated with them---but this very richness can baffle even professional musicians, many of whom don't even know a samba from a bossa nova. A "master" article like this would be a valuable resource and starting point for anyone who wanted to understand what distinguished these rhythms from each other, and to learn more about them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeAvailableName (talkcontribs) 23:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Standards[edit]

The old list of bossa nova standards was just merged&redirected to (the now fully-referenced) List of jazz standards (per discussion at talk). You may wish to incorporate a small/referenced part of the old/new lists in this article. Just a note. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Wrong translation[edit]

"Bossa Nova" does not translates to portuguese as "new trend". "New trend" in portuguese is "novas tendências". "Bossa" means literally hump or protuberance in portuguese. "Bossa" was also used in the old days as a synonymous to the word craft/hability (a slang not used anymore). And the word "Nova" means new. Hence, Bossa Nova = New Hability, New Craft. Bossa Nova = Novo jeito de fazer musica which means Bossa Nova = A new way to do music.(link here:[1]) Thats the meaning behind the word formation, but the word itself does not have any special meaning in Portuguese. Bossa Nova is an invented expression it doesn't have any meaning other than refering to a genre of music. Its like a play of words that put together the word "New" and "Bossa". So saying that the word Bossa Nova has a meaning in the Portuguese language is incorrect. Bossa Nova means Bossa Nova an expression that refers to a genre of music. The lede of the article should be corrected. Tacv (talk) 04:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Notated "Bossa nova rhythm" vs rhythm described under "Structure"[edit]

The "Structure" section defines explains how to play bossa rhythm on a guitar:

When played on the guitar, in a simple one-bar pattern the thumb plays the bass notes on 1 and 3, while the fingers pluck the chords in unison on the two eighth notes of beat one, followed by the second sixteenth note of beat two. Two-measure patterns usually contain a syncopation into the second measure.

This description seemed a little cumbersome, but when I notated it out it does look like the basic bossa nova pattern I learned from my guitar teacher once, and at least more or less like what Jobim or Gilberto would play on the guitar.

But the "Bossa nova rhythm" given in notation near the top of the article is a pretty different rhythm, at least at first glance. To me it sounds less like a bossa guitar part and closer to being a clave rhythm.

Is there a contradiction here? Can both rhythms be bossa nova? Maybe the two rhythms are supposed to be played by different instruments, the one on guitar and the other on percussion?

--Ryguasu (talk) 22:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

There isn't a single bossa nova pattern. Notice though, that if you subtract the bass part from the example guitar pattern above, you get (essentially) the second measure of the famous clave pattern in the box. TheScotch (talk) 12:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The Sidebar[edit]

  • Origin date given as 1957, should be 1958 according to the release of "Chega de Saudade". And why are there two dates (1963)?
  • Instruments: "electronic organ"? Electronic organ? Seriously? From this and the entry on "dance" I fear somebody made this up after listening to "Blame it on the Bossa Nova" by Eydie Gormé.
  • Can we remove "Tropicalismo" from the "subgenre" listing, since Bossa Nova and Tropicália have zero to do with each other?

External links[edit]

The URL for "History of the Bossa Nova" by Brazilian musician Paulo Bitencourt has changed to (new domain) http://music-photo.org/en/bossa-nova (content of the page remains the same). Old domain will expire soon and page will become unavailable if link is not changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.113.209.51 (talk) 13:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)