Talk:Christopher Dorner shootings and manhunt

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Article title[edit]

I think the title should be changed because "2013 Southern California shootings" is not specific to the Dorner case and can mean any or all shootings in Southern California. Please comment. If we determine that there is a consensus for change, then we can consider possible new titles. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

From the above "suggested move" discussion, I got the impression that the move might have gotten approved, if the proposed title had been "Christopher Dorner Shootings and Manhunt" instead of "Christopher Dorner shooting spree". People tended to object to the use of the term "shooting spree", rather than the idea that the article should be renamed because the current title is too vague. – Herzen (talk) 01:18, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • probable strong support for change - Without knowing the proposed change, I cannot make a definitive comment but I know I am probably for a change. First of all, this title will allow inclusion of other major shootings, which I will start to add if the title is kept. I know of another major shooting. Second of all, I can find no reliable source that uses this title. Therefore, it is improper and against Wikipedia rules, mainly "no original research". Auchansa (talk) 04:54, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Possible new titles[edit]

Please add your own suggestions to the following list if you feel they are as good or better than what is on the list. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Christopher Dorner Shootings and Manhunt — Suggestion from Herzen's message above. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Concise. Neither ambiguous nor vague. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Completely out of the box thinking....Dorner Manifesto and related shootings This can deal with the manifesto and how out solved the first shootings and then cover subsequent shootings and issues. It also does not violate wikipedia's ban on original research. Many suggestions are not used by reliable sources but are just made up by us, which is original research. In contrast, the Dormer Manifesto is used by many reliable sources.Bamler2 (talk) 04:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

This proposed title is vague since it assumes knowledge of Dorner's first name, and it focuses on the least important act Dorner is alleged to have performed: writing a letter. It's akin to renaming an article, "Krueger metalwork and related teen slashings." I'm also confused by this line: "This can deal with the manifesto and how out solved the first shootings and then cover subsequent shootings and issues."" Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
At first Quan was killed, nobody knew who did it. Then the manifesto came out and the police suspected Dorner. Coverage of the manifesto could explain the grievance and Dormer's killings. The article could then cover the killings. Wp's article could be called Christopher Dorner Manifesto and shootings but reliable sources don't use the word Christopher. Bamler2 (talk) 06:51, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Reliable sources don't use the word "Christopher"? So Dorner is such a cultural icon that he only gets referred to using his last name? The last I heard, the only people who get referred to just by their last name are philosophers and classical music composers (also painters and writers). (This is not difficult to show. For example, if you don't give any context, if you bring up Washington or Jefferson, people won't have a definite idea of whom you're talking about. But mention Hume, Kant, Hegel, Bach, or Beethoven, and it's immediately clear whom you're talking about, even if you bring the name up out of the blue.) Wikipedia's not using Dorner's first name in the title of an article having to do with him would be absolutely perverse. – Herzen (talk) 07:23, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Suggested move II[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 16:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

2013 Southern California shootingsChristopher Dorner shootings and manhunt – The present title is not specific to the Dorner case and can refer to any or all shootings that occur in Southern California in 2013. The new title specifically refers to Dorner and the most significant events. Bob K31416 (talk) 01:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

(Please see discussions in previous survey and section immediately above.)

Survey II[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Support - Current title implies coverage of all notable shootings in Southern California, which is beyond the scope of this article. Proposed article title, Christopher Dorner Shootings and Manhunt, references unambiguously Christopher Dorner as the subject of the article, as well as the activity that led to his notability. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support – The current title is too vague. – Herzen (talk) 01:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support, with "shootings and manhunt" in lower case per the usual standards for titles. A specific title about the specific incident in the article is better than the present generic one, and the scope of this particular article is clear: it is about Dorner's actions and the response to them, not about all shootings in California this year. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 13:31, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment I would prefer Christopher Dorner shootings , but any move is better than the current title. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 04:26, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
At least two people suggested just "Christopher Dorner manhunt" for the title, without "shootings", in earlier Talk sections. This is because a substantial portion of the article is about the manhunt, not the shootings. Thus, the new title being considered here is basically a compromise/synthesis. – Herzen (talk) 04:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose, just merge to Christopher Dorner. He isn't famous for anything but this episode, and if it is going to be so closely associated with his name that having Christopher Dorner in the title is warranted (which I strongly believe it is), then it is pointless to have two articles about the same events. —rybec 05:12, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
The survey is about a proposal to rename the article, not to merge it. Your opposing the renaming, given that you say "Christopher Dorner in the title is warranted (which I strongly believe it is)", doesn't make any sense. – Herzen (talk) 05:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion II[edit]

Any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Victims' names edits.[edit]

I'm mostly neutral on the subject of Mr. Dorner. I'm not neutral on the subject of his victims. They have far too little attention and their names have been swept under the rug. Let's give them and their surviving families at least the closure of their names being mentioned somewhat prominently on Wikipedia. I'm not certain whether the heading for Mr. Crain's death should read "murder" or "ambush", but for consistency I put murder, as it was premeditated to some degree, and ambush is more a tactical term than legal. The deaths of Mr. MacKay and Mr. Dorner I left as "deaths" as the various degrees of premeditation are disputed, involving radio intercepts and police terminology that has been interpreted variously.Pär Larsson (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Re "Let's give them and their surviving families at least the closure of their names being mentioned somewhat prominently on Wikipedia." — I don't think that's a consideration when editing an article and mentioning them in the headings didn't seem to work well. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Indeed. The "Manual" says, "Keep headings short". – Herzen (talk) 21:37, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Police dispatch logs released[edit]

The LA Times has a story about the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department releasing dispatch logs related to the Dorner manhunt. The article contains a link to the logs themselves. It doesn't say anything we didn't already know or that is not in the Wikipedia article.

Still, our article might mention that the logs have been released, although I don't know where to work that in. Also, someone might want to look through the logs (I haven't) to see if there's anything there that might be used in the article. – Herzen (talk) 20:39, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Special Forces combatant[edit]

Dorner was never a "Special Forces combatant." First of all, "Special Forces" refers only to the United States Army Special Forces, which he could not have been a part of as a member of the Navy. Secondly, neither of his units were Special Operations units. As such, I have removed the erroneous information. 208.40.242.41 (talk) 02:45, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

June 2013 report by LAPD re Dorner firing[edit]

LAPD: Firing of Christopher Dorner 'sound and just' CNN
Police Commission questions why Christopher Dorner was ever hired by LAPD Southern California Public Radio
LAPD's firing of Christopher Dorner was justified, report says LA Times
--Bob K31416 (talk) 01:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)