Talk:Cultural Judaism

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• Jewish culture
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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

keep, 31 January 2013, see discussion.
delete, 10 June 2006, see discussion.

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Example section[edit]

Can this section be removed, at least temporarily? It is not sourced, except for the dead link. And it is focussed on just one "example", namely that of kashrut. Is the reader supposed to derive the lesson from this example that what applies to "kashrut", applies to all other areas of observance in Judaism? Is any source asserting this? Bus stop (talk) 17:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this example section is not supportable by any movement or stream of Judaism or any Jewish community, it appears to read just how one secular Jew decides what he will cherry pick in calling Jewish living. Chana Maven (talk)Chana Maven —Preceding undated comment added 16:46, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The "Example" section has been removed. Bus stop (talk) 19:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Latest edits[edit]

I added the categories Asian culture and Middle Eastern culture because Jewish culture originated in the Middle East, and is most commonly associated with Israel.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:43, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First, this article is not Jewish culture, but Cultural Judaism. Second, Jewish culture is not an Asian culture or Middle Eastern culture. That is original research (Jews originated in the Middle East, hence Jewish culture originated there.) Your obsessive need to mark every article about Jews with these Asian and Middle Eastern categories is growing tiresome and will land you at WP:AN/I if it continues. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Second, Jewish culture is not an Asian culture or Middle Eastern culture."

My edits are original research, and this isn't? I don't understand.

Anyway, it's not OR, it's common sense. Just as every other culture originating in Asia or the Middle East is classified in this way, why shouldn't Jewish culture?Evildoer187 (talk) 00:27, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need more opinions in here.Evildoer187 (talk) 00:34, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:No original research, and pay close attention to the section on synthesis. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the request for more opinions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism [1]. I agree with Malik Shabazz; the article in its current form does not support categorization of this subject as Asian or Middle Eastern. As IZAK's comment at the recent AfD pointed out, the most substantive material within Wikipedia on the subject of cultural Judaism may be the content at Center for Cultural Judaism, which is in large part about American conceptions of culturally-focused Jewish identification. More broadly, I'll add that, while I agree with the "keep" result of the recent AfD, this article would benefit from finding a clearer focus. --Arxiloxos (talk) 18:44, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the "debate" resulting in the decision to keep and on calling "Jewish culture" Asian or Middle Eastern

The discussion on Asian culture and Middle eastern culture is yet another illustration of the confusion of this misleading entry of Cultural Judaism. There is no singluar Jewish culture and that's been the case since the First Diaspora. The culture of Jews in Hong Kong is different than the culture of Jews in Israel or Yemen.

The arguments to keep the entry there appears to ignore evidence that I gave in the request to delete and shows precisely the type of confusion the "Cultural Judaism" article creates. There is no singular Jewish culture as their own references actually note. And more importantly the studies of Jewish cultures cannot be designated as a secular Jewish movement. There was never an argument put forth that it wasn't recognized that there are secular Jews by religious Jews. It is a non-Jewish notion that religious Jews do not recognnize that there are Jews who do not practice Judaism In fact, it often angers Christian missionaries that Judaism (of all movements) does not rescind membership to Jews who become atheist, but that Jewish law designates a Jew who converts to Christianity as estranged and left the Jewish people. And that is because it is Jewish law that does not remove an atheist from membership but does remove the Jew who leaves Judaism for another religion. AdventerousSquirrel says "Whether or not it is recognized in some (particularly more religious) circles, the fact of the matter is that it's very clear in many places of the world that many people who, while no longer practicing Judaism, still self-identify as "nonobservant" or "cultural Jews". This is not an argument to support keeping the article. There is no movement of Judaism called Cultural Judaism. In addition, Non-observant Jews may or may not be atheist or agnostic, they may simply be Jews who don't live near any Jewish community. I know of NO movement of Judaism that does not recognize that there are non-practicing, secular or atheist Jews. The secular Jews who still identify with their people are only Jews because they qualify by the standards of Jewish law to be members of the Jewish community, no matter whether the culture is in North America, Israel, the UK, or in any other country, and Jews in those different places have vastly different Jewish cultural attributes. It is only adopting a foreign religion that renders one born a Jew apostate/estranged/outside the Jewish community. This is yet another reason why it is redundant to try to come up with a name for a non existent, unnecessary "movement". There is already the controversial Humanistic Judaism. That is more likely what this article could be "merged" with to show the studies of Jewish cultures. Note the plurality there.. there is NO singlular Jewish culture. If you say this, then you're ignoring the very references given if you read them. The studies of Jewish cultures designate these differences, but the article here is putting forth a completely false notion that there is a movement of Judaism that is called Cultural Judaism. Judaism *is* ONLY a religion. Jewish identity or membership can be independent of the religion and that isn't something new, but has been the case for thousands of years and recognized by all movements. Those who claim to want to keep the article mistakenly are arguing a point that I am not in disagreement, that there are Jews who do not follow Judaism, stating in one sentence they are "no longer practicing Judaism" when it could also be the case they may never have practiced it. Yet, the next phrase is that they have connection to the "culture of Judaism" when there is no such exclusive entity.( see the confusion with "Jewish culture") Judaism is the religious laws the culture of isolated Jewish communities is not Judaism, but is influenced by Judaism, by its laws and customs the particular community developed in the surrounding culture to honor those laws. Secular Jews are often not involved in any Jewish culture but still can identify as Jews because they're Jews by standards of membership criteria of Jewish law. It is community practices and foods that secular Jews will identify with as well as the ethical precepts that they will call Jewish culture. Ashkenazi, Mizrahi and Sephardim are quite different culturally than the secular Jew who grew up as a third generation Jew in the Southern US Delta, for example. This explanation may read "thesis" like, but it appears necessary to go into such detail since the reasons people want to "keep" something above appear to be supporting the very reasons why it is not a legitimate movement by any remote stretch of definition of a movement of Judaism. Some may not recognize that Humanistic Judaism is a legitimate movement, but it clearly exists *AS A MOVMEMENT * of Jewish people, UNLIKE the entry's claim of "Cultural Judaism". "Cultural Judaism" as it is studied is not a separate movement of Judaism but the studies of different Jewish cultures and it includes religion as the link to the hillel site shows. They support why the entry is wrong in being claimed as a secular Jewish movement. Humanistic Judaism is somewhat of a misnomer only because it is not an actual religion, meaning belief in a deity with dogma, though it has a distinct effort to strive to adhere to stated ethical prcepts of Judaism without acknowledging God. Therefore, IT is the secular Jewish movement. Judaism is already humanistic, with God, but the Humanistic Judaism is a secular movement specifically focusing upon ethical precepts of Jewish law. And likewise, there is no different form of atheism among the Jewish people, there is no distinctly Jewish way to not believe that there is such a thing as a deity.

The comment that we have many articles that offend someone is out of line, this isn't well documented as I already showed using the very references given within it, that do not support its claims, and if that is merely dismissed out of hand, I wonder, was that comment made because the intent is to offend?

It is precisely because unlike Christiaity, the unbeliever is not removed from the community..that this topic does not equate to the example of the "cultural Catholic"..who is considered an apostate. The secular Jew is not considered an apostate. They are considered to be sinning, but they are not estranged from their people. I wish they would stop using an argument to keep this article that does not apply to the situation or to my reasons for recommending deletion for a non existent movement of Judaism that is being used across the internet on several forums by an aggressive missionary campaign to purposely confuse people and claim that anyone studying Jewish culture is member of "Cultural Judaism". Chana Maven (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

The recent tagging the article seems to be a drive-by tagging, as I can find no previous edits by this person on either article. Editor2020 (talk) 20:34, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Therefore, and given that there has been no subsequent support, merge proposal closed (no merge). Klbrain (talk) 10:45, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]