Talk:Dashavatara

Dashavatar - Regarding buddha avatar

Buddha avatar

In "Vaswani, J.P. (2017), Dasavatara[1], Jaico Publishing House, ISBN 9789386867186()" Book there is clear mention of Vishnu-buddha avatar i.e he is son of Anjana, and born in Kikata( Gaya), while Gautama Buddha is son of Mayadevi, indicates Gautam Buddha is not avatar of Vishnu Ritij Paudel (talk) 8:08, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

See note 13. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:28, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

You have to remove that buddha is founder of buddhism as ""Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24". Srimadbhagavatam.com. Archived from the original on 2007-09-26. Retrieved 2012-08-14.|Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24]]". Srimadbhagavatam.com. Archived from the original on 2007-09-26. Retrieved 2012-08-14." said clearly that Lord Buddha(Vishu-avatar) mother name is Anjana while Gautama Buddha mother name is Mayadevi. If not Justify? Ritij Paudel (talk) 20:57, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS and WP:OR, and try to get a grip on the basics of Wikipedia editing before you continue to contribute to Wikipedia. And try to give working links: Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24, Bhagavata Purana 1 Chapter 3: Krishna is the Source of All Incarnations, line 24. The only conclusion I can draw from this line is that this text gives another name for Buddha's mother than does the Buddhist tradition. We don't interpret primary sources; we give an overview of what relevant secondary sources state. And even that website, in a note to line 24, explicitly declares this Buddha to be Gautama Buddha. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 02:49, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

The Puranic Buddha not only has different parents. He also has a different birthplace . The Puranic Buddha was born in Bodh Gaya while the founder of Buddhism was born in Kapilavastu.

Do you still think it's the same Buddha ? Bodhiupasaka (talk) 05:00, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I have read the link that you provided. Neither does line 24 nor it's corresponding note declare that the Buddha they have mentioned is Gotama Buddha.

It is clear that they are not talking about the same Buddha. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 05:03, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I have a source from our Garuda Purana, It is clearly written (in english also), that he( Vishnu-buddha avatar) born in kikat(i.e Bodha-gaya) (not in Lumbini) pg 872, line 26.

Ritij Paudel (talk) 7:01 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Ritij Paudel, you are absolutely right. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:18, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Therefore , the wikipedia article claiming that Gotama Buddha, the 'founder' of Buddhism being the avatar of Vishnu is completely false. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:20, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Joshua Johnson, even the sources that you have given, clearly implies that Puranic Buddha and Gotama Buddha are completely different people. So please correct the wikipedia article accordingly. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS and WP:OR. The Puranic Buddha you're referring to is deduced from mythology; at best you can say that some people believe that there were two different Buddhas. That's already mentioned in a note. Note also that at 1800 BCE there were no Aryans nor Vedic culture in India; ergo, there wasn't a "Puranic Buddha" either. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Of course Puranic Buddha is mythological. I agree with you. And Gotama Buddha is an actual historical figure. That still does not justify why Gotama Buddha is included as an avatar of Vishnu in this article. Even your own sources(cannot stress that enough) implies that the Buddha they are mentioning about is not same Buddha who founded Buddhism. Your source does not even mention the founder of Buddhism by his first name, 'Gotama', and your source all states that the Puranic version of Buddha has a different mother named Anjana ! The historical founder of Buddhism, Gotama Buddha was given birth to by a woman named 'Mayadevi' . Your own link, mentions that Puranic Buddha is born in Gaya(Bodh Gaya). The historical Buddha, Gotama Buddha was born in Lumbini ! The link that you have provided does not mention anything about a 'Gotama Buddha' who was born in 'Lumbini' to a mother named 'Mayadevi;. That is, the link that you have given does not mention the historical founder of Buddhism, Gotama Buddha. All the more reason to correct the misleading article. And why are you mentioning the failed Aryan invasion theory ?

Perhaps this article which is joint agreement between Hindu and Buddhist leaders will clear up everything:https://circumsolatious.blogspot.com/2010/07/joint-declaration-buddha-is-not-9th.html I implore you to please go through this article. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:53, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

See also WP:TRUTH, and stick to WP:RS, instead of hammering down your personal beliefs and interpretations. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:20, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

What about in Skanda Purana in line 255-256.--Om Ram Sharma (talk) 11:28, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Please try to understand that you're interpreting a WP:PRIMARY source, which is WP:OR. See also WP:DONTGETIT. Anyway, I've added some info on the two Buddhas. This should suffice. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:35, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Let me make one thing clear. These are not my personal beliefs. These are scriptural facts. Your own links have not refuted my arguments. Instead they support them .

Please give the exact verse number of any Puranic text where it states that 'Gotama Buddha', son of Mayadevi, born in Lumbini , that is the historical founder of Buddhism is the avatar of Vishnu and I will promise not to take this discussion any further. ::::Bodhiupasaka (talk) 13:11, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

One more time: you're interpreting primary sources; at Wikipedia, we use secomdary sources, of which plenty are given. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:31, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that's true, scriptures say otherwise and also why they are using the interpretations and commentaries of foreign authors/writers as the sources here ?, would they not mind if we were to interpret the sayings of Bible based on the sources by Indian or more particularly Hindu writers/authors ? NerdyRas007 (talk) 10:14, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to add the conclusions of non-"foreign" writers as you see fit. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:43, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Old tricks

Not contributing to article improvement. Abecedare (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

user:Joshua Jonathan Still up to your old tricks, I see. First, you know full well primary sources are acceptable on wikipedia (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses for a clear statement supporting this fact). Second, we also both know that if user:Bodhiupasaka were to provide a secondary source, you would just dismiss it anyway by making something up such as it being "too old" or whatever (just like you did on the Rig Veda talk page). Third, since you so blatantly want to own this article (against WP policy, not that anyone will do anything about it), could you at least show some basic competency and fix all your errors (which I told you about after you reverted my edit, see above)? Carlduff (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2020 (UTC) Regarding "basic competence," it would be helpfull if you refer to Wiki-policies, not to Wiki-articles. WP:PRIMARY: Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[d] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Statements like "Gautama Buddha was not an avatar, because this specific text mentions another name for his mother," c.q. "Gautama Buddha was not anavatar, because this specific text refers to him as sugata, which is a name, and different from the Buddha's name," are statements of faith, and interpretations. A statement like "Some Hindus argue that the Buddha was not an avatar because [arguments above]" is a statement of fact, though this too would need a secondary source. Regarding 'fixing my errors', feel free to fix what you deem wrong, but take notice of my explanations of the faults in your edits, instead of complaining about the fact that you were corrected. Cheers, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:22, 25 April 2020 (UTC) Joshua Jonathan, you do realise that secondary sources are derived from primary ones ? The hint is in the name. You do realise that the link you have given all of us pertaining srimad Bhagavatam proves that Gotama Buddha is not the avatar of Vishnu ? Have you even read your own sources ? Bodhiupasaka (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC) You still have not given any Hindu scriptural reference that supports your argument that Gotama Buddha, historical founder of Buddhism, son of Mayadevi, is undisputably the avatar of Vishnu. Instead you try to throw distractions by citing wikipedia rules. And avoid answering that question all together . Bodhiupasaka (talk) 06:23, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Wiki-policies are not distractions, but the basic rules of Wikipedia. Please understand that this is not about Gotama Buddha, historical founder of Buddhism, son of Mayadevi, is undisputably the avatar of Vishnu but about "Gotama Buddha, the historical founder of Buddhism, is regarded as an avatar of Vishnu," as mentioned in a multitude of sources, listed in note 1. Read those policies, and stop your WP:OR and pov-pushing. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:32, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Joshua Jonathan If you were competent enough to read the WP:PRIMARY article you like throwing about, you would know it links to exactly the same article I provided. I had already corrected your mistakes but you reverted my corrections and tried to bullshit me. Seriously, if you put a fraction of the effort into actually improving this article as you do into reverting other people's edits and quacking bullshit at them as its self-appointed gatekeeper, at least it would be a semi-competent article, even for you. Carlduff (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Yes, to explain what a primary source is, not to encourage original research and pov-pushing. Could you now please stop your WP:TENDENTIOUS comments? Talkpages are meant to discuss improvements to the article, not as a WP:FORUM for personal frustrations. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC) user:Joshua Jonathan I have already told you how to improve the article. How many times must it be pointed out, for example, that there is no such being as 'Hiranyakashyapa', that word is a dead (i.e. red) link, and Hiranyakashipu - the proper spelling - is NOT a Rakasha? Or where in your secondary sources does it say anything about cyclones in the myths of Matsya? And so on. There's some improvements you can make right now to stop spreading misinformation to people. I can't do anything, because I already tried and got reverted by a genius that thinks the Puranas - the very texts from which the Dashavatara originates - aren't as reliable as academics' books about them! Carlduff (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

POVPUSH

@Gotitbro: regarding this revert, which removed

and some Hindus argue that there were two Buddhas, a Puranic Buddha mentioned in Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24 who was the incarnation of Vishnu, and the historical Buddha, who according to them was not an incarnation of Vishna.

what makes you think that this is an WP:POVPUSH? Although it's a minority view, for some it is important, and it is a gesture of compromise to include it in this way. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:16, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: The singular note suffices here, the user above who added that was clearly trying to POVPUSH the fringe theory he is trying to paste all over the article with multiple notes and additional prominence. Gotitbro (talk) 07:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Some sources

Wasn't sure what sub-section to add this is, so decided to start a new one where secondary reliable sources can be added and discussed. Hera are a couple to start:

• On Puranic Buddha being the Buddha of Buddhism: P.V. Kane discusses Vishnu avataras on pages 717-724 of his History of Dharmasastra, vol 2.2 and in particular how Buddha (the founder of Śākyadharma) was increasingly accepted as a canonical avatara of Vishnu in Puranic literature between the seventh and tenth century. Kane also notes early opposition to Buddha's inclusion from eg. Kumārila Bhaṭṭa because the texts and teachings he promulgated were contrary to Vedic teachings, which shows that there was a contemporaneous linking of the 'Buddha the Vishnu avatara' and Buddhist teachings. Kane further postulates that such absorption of Buddha/Buddhism into the Hindu canon and Puranic literature contributed to the dwindling of Buddhism in India. This reference and (at least, some of the) content may be useful additions to the article.
• The two Buddha theory: Philip C. Almond discusses the historiography of the theory that the (historical) 'Buddha who founded Buddhism' was different from 'Buddha the avatara of Vishnu in Hinduism' in considerable detail in his book The British Discovery of Buddhism (see pages 15-33 etc). Per Almond, this idea was promulgated by and popular among 19th c British scholars who were just discovering that Buddhism was not simply a sect of Hinduism. Note that Almond himself regards the two Buddha theory as incorrect. We can mention this briefly in the wikipedia article.
• Apparently, from sources removed in this edit by Gotitbro, the two Buddha theory may be seeing a modern revival in some Hindu-circles. If that can be supported by reliable sources then that too can be mentioned in the article, but if all we have is writings of Stephen Knapp and random websites then the idea would be too fringe to include IMO.

Feel free to add more sources on the subject, below. Abecedare (talk) 08:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Reading this book may help Dasavatar.--Ritij Paudel (talk) 09:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Almond is a good source; thanks! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

What's with the third paragraph in this page? It has no citations and is a dubious claim. Please look into it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.58.96.189 (talk) 11:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Wrong Buddha

The Dashavatars does not include the founder of Buddhism(Gotama Buddha). It instead includes Sugata Buddha or just Lord Buddha who is a completely different person, being born in a different place(Gaya) as opposed to Kapilavastu and also having a different mother(Anjana) as opposed to Mayadevi. This Puranic Buddha is said to have been born into a family of Brahmins as opposed to the Shakyans that Buddhism's founder, Gotama Buddha was born into.

Unfortunately the Wiki Article, especially in the avatar's description section wrongly states the founder of Buddhism , Gotama Buddha to be one of the Dashavatars. Hoping someone would correct this inaccuracy.

Bodhiupasaka (talk) 07:39, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Gautama Buddha was incorporated into Vaishnavism as a response to the succes of Buddhism. "Sugata" is an epithet for this Buddha, and some traditions argue that this is a different Buddha. This is already explained in the text. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

There are numerous references in Gautama Buddha in Hinduism that agree that it is the founder of Buddhism who was included in the avatars. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Description of first image in article

The description says that the ninth avatar is Krishna, but in the image, it is written as Buddha.
Anish Viswa 08:21, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you're right! Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

It is Parashurama, Sreerama, Balarama, Sree Buddha, Kalki as pe the image. Krishna is not there as per image. Artist may be considering Krishna = Vishnu.
Anish Viswa 10:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Images in lead

To solve this confusion among versions of Dashavatara, images of the three major versions followed by sects are added.
Vithoba and Jagannath are considered Krishna by sects outside Warkaris.
Vithobhas wife Rukhmai is Rukmini wife of Krishna and Jagannaths companions are Balabhadra (Balram) and Subhadra, Krishna's siblings.
Omitting versions will lead to generalisation.
The earliest available image is the ivory version in Delhi 2001:4490:48F:C275:0:0:0:1 (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Three images is too many for the lead. By all means include your information (and/or the image) in the body of the text, but it should not be the main image; the other two are far better and more illustrative. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 14:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The deleted image is more authoritative and ancient. Still you want to press on your ISKCON POV pushing. 2001:4490:487:3913:0:0:0:1 (talk) 00:01, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Restored older image. Capitals00 (talk) 02:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Why? The other image is (slightly) older but it's in no way for illustrative or instructive. It's much harder to see the various avatars, and three images is still too many. I am reverting pending further discussion. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 15:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I am finding them illustrative enough. The IP editor has limited the lead to just 2 images now so your concern has been addressed at large. Capitals00 (talk) 02:46, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Please be specific, and mention the version-name ("Balarama-Krishna," etc.). Obviously, the age of the pictures/statues is not a relevant criterium; the fact that Krishna-Buddha is called the most used list is more relevant. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:50, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

most used list - POV pushing by this editor or not? 2001:4490:48F:31EF:0:0:0:1 (talk) 09:19, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Huh? Giving the most used list the most prominent position seems like a good interpretation of WP:DUE:

Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to [...] prominence of placement

I fail to see how following Wiki-policies would be pov-pushing. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:55, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no set opinion on one, two or three images in the lead, but I do notice that the statues are poorly visible, due to their size. I can imagine that some people prefer to have more images, to have various variants included, but for esthetical reasons I think one image should be preferred. A gallery could added, to have various lists included. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

From Amar Chitra Katha

This is a children's book published in the 80's as per this book the avatars (Dashavatar) of Vishnu are

1. Matsya

2. Kurma

3. Mohini

4. Varaha

5. Narasimha

6. Vamana

7. Parashurama

8. Rama

9. Krishna

10. Kalki

I have come across different variations like for example taking out Mohini and adding Balarama or Buddha to fill the space.

As per my understanding Balarama is avatar of Anant Nag and Buddha although mentioned in texts is not specified as an avatar of Vishnu whereas Mohini is specified as Vishnu's avatar.

49.207.5.35 (talk) 13:15, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Adi Sankara's Prapanchasara follows the Linga Purana which has Balarama and Krishna but not Buddha.

This is taken by the majority while Freemasons like Ravi Varma & Amar Chitra Katha Uncle Pai popularised the Buddha version 2001:4490:48B:4134:0:0:0:1 (talk) 06:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)