Talk:Fedor Emelianenko

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Fedor was KO'd. Where are the sources to dispute this other than sherdog?[edit]

I have cited numerous sources that conflict with sherdogs tko. MEanwhile you are content to merely cite sherdog. Who is a more legitimate news source, sherdog or ESPN saying it was a KO?. The referee for that fight Herb Dean is on record saying Fedor was unconscious, and that is was subsequent strikes from Hendo that woke fedor up. But at that point the fight was over Herb Dean says. You can cite the controversy all you want but these sources are calling it a knockout, and all I have seen to the contrary is a statement saying sherdog essentially has the final say on all matters fight related. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Sherdog is used by WP:MMA. We put here what they say. --LlamaAl (talk) 23:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
You know I did not see that. If the other person had taken five minutes to point that out it could have solved this weeks ago (although I do disagree). PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 00:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I know, just look the time of my comment. I also disagree, but we should follow consensus since we are under general sanctions. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:11, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
This article is full to the brim with statements that picture Fedor as a persecuted individual. Are all the vanity points like his entrance music really neccessary? PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 00:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I also think the line about fedor falling face first into the mat needs to mention something about the fact that he goes unconscious. I think this is neccessary because it is possible to fall face first into the mat without going unconscious; so I think it should be changed to mention the fact that he was unconscious, albeit for a moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PortlandOregon97217 (talkcontribs) 22:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I also dispute that fedors loss was due to an illegal elbow. There are no refs to prove it. and without them I will delete this assertion. Even if elbows without elbows pads was the reason how do you know that this was the reason for this? Is there a reliable second party source for this? Currently we are relying on his employer, and a youtube statement from himself to assert that the elbows were illegal. Even if they were illegal, he still lost, and that is on the record. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 05:12, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
I challenge the claim from noguiera saying fedor is the fastest heavyweight. This is a lofty claim, and an interview with a fighter is not a reliable source on the matter. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 06:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Fedor and RTT[edit]

How is an interview of Fedor on Fedor's own official site not a reliable source? You'd rather have a media outlet like MMAJunkie as a source instead of the DIRECT source itself?Delinquent1904 (talk) 17:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Please see WP:PRIMARY for why the source may not be ideal, and WP:BLP for why the content may not be ideal (regardless of what source is used). GiantSnowman 17:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Delinquent: You have no evidence to support that Fedor and his brothers manager denied them higher ranks in Sambo as a way to control their career. Other than Fedor's word. I'm not saying Fedor is a liar, I am just saying that you do not have the WP:SOURCES] to back up that claim, and the claim is potentially libelous to boot. I feel the same way about the part where you assert that Dana White went on a "slander" campaign against Fedor. While this may be true, the article that is given as a ref mentions nothing about Dana and slander. That would make your assertion WP:OR, and this not acceptable. Even if Dana White did engage in a slander campaign, currently there is no proof. And a Wiki mantra is verifiability over truth WP:NOTTRUTH. So, I will be removing the parts about their manager trying to control them, and the part about Dana White launching a slanderous campaign to devalue Fedor. But please do feel free to add them back the moment that you find reliable sources, then we can talk about it again. I also presume (in good faith) that you have no objection to the parts I have objection with above.

PS:MMAjunkie is a part of USAtoday, and shoudl be presumed notable. I left a question in the reliable sources noticeboard about this and (except for a lone dissdenter) it was deemed generally reliable. I also hear that Bleacherreport is going to be handling sports for CNN now so keep a lookout for good articles from them in the future. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Fedor nationality/ethnicity[edit]

93.72.158.176 continues to post that Fedor is Ukrainian, despite this issue having already been addressed once and twice. I don't want to get into an edit war but this is ridiculous. Someone should either tell Comrade Putin that Fedor is Ukrainian or block this IP. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

GOAT?[edit]

There's been ongoing editing back and forth about Fedor being the "greatest of all time", which got started with this edit by Dkspartan1. I recommend the IPs that think this is an issue come up with text based on some reliable sources. I think it's more reasonable to assert that prior to Anderson Silva, Fedor was considered by some to be the greatest. Ultimately it doesn't matter because it's a matter of opinion. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

List of Accolades and Citations:

An overview:

Fedor Status as the GOAT was somewhat challanged after his three loses, this was happening while Anderson Silva's winning streak remained unbroken. http://www.mmaweekly.com/greatest-of-all-time-anderson-silva-or-fedor-emelianenko

But later Silva lost his last two fights in a row, in brutal fashion (KO and Compound fracture to the leg) - so it negates the above. http://www.bjpenn.com/anderson-silva-fights-for-his-legacy/

There is a difference between Pound-for-pound ranking (P4P) and the accolade; Greatest fighter in MMA history (GOAT). A fighter can be number 1 P4P for a while (while active) but still not considered GOAT. it's usually the fighters that Reigned long as top P4P, that are considered in the GOAT discussion. (Fedor and Silva)

When Fedor had his first loss he dropped immediately in the P4P rankings. "Fedor Emelianenko dropped like a rock in various pound-for-pound polls after losing to Fabricio Werdum, and his win streak as twice as long as Silva's." http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/7/12/4511984/sb-nation-pound-for-pound-mma-rankings-where-do-silva-and-weidman-rate

The same thing happened to Anderson Silva after his first and second losses. He used to be number 1 P4P, he is currently number 7. http://www.ufc.com/rankings

So the playing field is leveled in that sense. And those two are the ones that are brought up in the GOAT discussions.

Used accolades in mma and their differences:

  • The best in a certain aspect of mma [informal, current active fighters]: Ground-and-Pound, Striking, wrestling, submission etc.
  • The best in his weight class [is an official ranking for an active fighter]: Current champion of a division - Lightweight, welterweight, middleweight, light-heavyweight, etc.
  • The best pound for pound (P4P) fighter [is an official ranking for active fighters]: across all weight classes (imagining everybody was the same size, and had their current skill, who would be best)
  • The greatest in a certain aspect of mma in the sport history: doesn't have to be active anymore. considered the greatest in a certain aspect of mma fighting skill in the history of the sport.
  • The greatest in his weight class in mma history: doesn't have to be an active fighter. usually it is given for the longest reign and dominance in a specific division among champions.
  • The greatest fighter in mma of all time (G.O.A.T): doesn't have to be an active fighter. a fighter that is considered the best ever, across the board and weight classes. Usually it is assumed by the length and dominance of reign as a P4P fighter Bigbaby23 (talk) 06:17, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Fedor currently has Six known accolades:[edit]

1) The Greatest Master Of Ground-and-Pound in MMA History

  • “The Emperor,” fallen though he might be of late, takes the No. 1 spot as the greatest ground-and-pound artist in MMA history..."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/979984-ufc-140-results-tito-ortiz-and-the-5-best-ground-and-pound-artists-ever/page/6

  • "...What Fedor will always be remembered for by fans who saw him compete in his prime, however, was his revolutionizing of ground and pound..."

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/6/3/3059390/analyzing-fedor-revolutionizing-ground-and-pound

2) The Greatest Heavyweight Of All Time:

  • "#1 - Fedor Emelianenko"

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/MMAs-AllTime-Heavyweights-35201

  • "Fedor Emelianenko: Tribute to the Greatest Heavyweight of All Time"

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1427485-fedor-emelianenko-tribute-to-the-greatest-heavyweight-of-all-time

  • "Emelianenko - regarded as the greatest heavyweight in MMA history"

http://www.espn.co.uk/ufc/sport/story/248959.html

  • "At this moment, Fedor Emelianenko still deserves the moniker of greatest heavyweight MMA has ever seen."

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/10/20/4859064/ufc-166-aftermath-cain-velasquezs-path-to-becoming-all-time-best-is

3) The Longest reigning Top Pound-For-Pound fighter (P4P) in MMA History

  • Number 1 P4P between July 01, 2004 to January 01, 2010

http://www.fightmatrix.com/historical-mma-rankings/generated-historical-rankings/?Issue=33&Division=-1

  • "Ranked number one in his division and pound-for-pound longest time out of anyone in MMA at seven years"

http://www.mmamania.com/2011/7/28/2247829/ungodly-numbers-a-look-at-fedor-emelianenko

  • "The mystique surrounding the world's top pound-for-pound fighter quickly faded when Fedor Emelianenko suffered three straight setbacks in Strikeforce between June 2010 and July 2011."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1885872-ben-askren-fedor-emelianenko-and-the-5-best-fighters-to-never-fight-in-the-ufc/page/7

  • "Fedor Emelianenko and Dan Henderson are Sports Illustrated No. 1 and No. 4 pound-for-pound fighters of the last decade respectively."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/692384-5-reasons-fedor-emelianenko-vs-dan-henderson-is-fight-of-the-year — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbaby23 (talkcontribs) 20:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

4) The Greatest MMA Fighter Of All Time. GOAT

4.1) Most fans overwhelmingly consider Fedor as the GOAT. Fedor wins Fans polls by a huge margin over Anderson Silva

  • Polls in English

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/1/2/5264884/bes-baddest-mma-greatest-of-all-time-tournament-fedor-emelianenko-mma-goat-ufc-pride

http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/toughest-professional-fighters-in-history

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f40/who-g-o-t-w-poll-2503923/

  • Even a major poll in Brazil (Anderson silva's home country)

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/9/4/3291524/fedor-emelianenko--greatest-fighter-brazilian-mma-news

4.2) Many Fighting champions consider Fedor to be the GOAT:

http://www.mmabay.co.uk/2010/12/15/cain-velasquez-names-fedor-emelianenko-as-the-best-of-all-time-would-love-to-fight-him-down-the-line/ Bigbaby23 (talk) 21:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/7/19/4535462/morning-report-jose-aldo-says-fedor-emelianenko-is-the-greatest-fighter-all-time-ufc-nick-diaz

  • Former heavyweight champion Bas Rutten ("I am just saying that Big Foot has upset the world before and stopped Fedor (Freaking Fedor people!! In my book still the greatest)")

https://www.facebook.com/BasRutten/posts/442653112471726 Bigbaby23 (talk) 20:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Former Lightweight and welterweight champion BJ Penn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6V5Pf1sR5M

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1355001-junior-dos-santos-fedor-is-the-greatest-of-all-time

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/54789-the-top-10-myths-about-fedor-emelianenko — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbaby23 (talkcontribs) 08:23, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/54789-the-top-10-myths-about-fedor-emelianenko — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbaby23 (talkcontribs) 08:17, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

http://www.mmamania.com/2011/2/18/2000864/ufc-quick-quote-shane-carwin-twitter-defends-fedor-emelianenkos-legacy

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jeff_wagenheim/02/15/strikeforce/

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/3/23/2897477/mike-tyson-mma-rosie-odonnell-fedor-faber

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/54789-the-top-10-myths-about-fedor-emelianenko

4.3) Among analysts it's a close call between Fedor and Anderson:

  • "I think to be honest we've kind of come to the crux of why it's so difficult to choose between Anderson and Fedor as the GOAT. It really does just come down to where you put the most value."

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/12/31/5259296/anderson-silva-vs-fedor-emelianenko-debate-mma-goat-greatest-of-all-time-ufc-168

  • "You can argue the point either way, and people have, and will, and I don't have any fixed opinion on the matter other than that I would like to see the two fight at light heavyweight. What's actually interesting is that when you run down their records the two are even closer than you might think."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tim_marchman/02/10/silva.fedor/

  • "What we can agree on is that both of these men changed the game. In a sport where everyone loses, these men beat the best of the best and held off the inevitable for the longest. Few men in any field can lay claim to such accomplishment and influence over their own sport. That is something to be applauded, examined and appreciated—not bickered over."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1909904-fedor-emelianenko-vs-anderson-silva-who-is-the-goat Bigbaby23 (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

5) MMA Legend

  • "MMA legend Fedor Emelianenko retires"

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/22/sports/la-sp-sn-mma-fedor-emelianenko-20120622

  • "Ronda Rousey Wants to Have '57 Babies' with MMA Legend Fedor Emelianenko"

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1917087-ronda-rousey-wants-to-have-57-babies-with-mma-legend-fedor-emelianenko

  • "UFC on FOX 11 headliner Fabricio Werdum needed just over a minute to halt MMA legend Fedor Emelianenko‘s 28-fight unbeaten streak when they fought on June 26, 2010, in Stikeforce."

http://www.mmaweekly.com/one-from-the-vault-fabrico-werdum-ends-fedor-emelianenkos-28-fight-winning-streak

  • "Fedor Emelianenko is a mixed martial arts legend, considered by many the greatest fighter in the history of the sport."

http://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/fedor-emelianenko-the-last-emperor Bigbaby23 (talk) 16:17, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

6) Humble

  • "M-1’s vice president of fighter relations says, “He doesn’t want to speak English. He’s forced to. He has to.” When I ask if Fedor realizes how much that limits his drawing potential in the West, Echteld shrugs. “He doesn’t want to be a star,” he says."

http://www.fightmagazine.com/mma-magazine/king-without-a-crown-fedor-emelianenko-co-find-their-own-way-535/

  • "Tony: When people call you the greatest heavyweight fighter in the world or the greatest ever. Do you agree or disagree with them? Fedor: I try not to give these characterizations any thought and try not to attach importance to them. A man becomes complacent if he considers himself great. I try to live a normal human life. But I also appreciate the fact that martial arts fans get very excited about fighters and enjoy talking about them. And I do not want to offend my fans. I very much appreciate all of the kind words people say about me."

http://www.mmasportsmag.com/interview_fedor_emelianenko.htm

  • "To the Russians who know him, Fedor is not a god of MMA, but a humble man of God. Neither Fedor nor his fellow Russians will put him above God. That is very wise of them. American MMA fans, or perhaps I should specify, UFC fans, make gods out of men whom they feel are unstoppable. To my knowledge, Fedor Emelianenko has never claimed to be a great or unstoppable man. He is devoutly Russian Orthodox."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/286837-fedor-fights-in-chicago

  • "Having spoken with Fedor, through all the fame and fan response, the man still remains humble and aware that he is simply human. He is aware that on any day he can lose a fight just as easily as the next man. I think the persona and presence which he brings to the sport is what catches the attention of the fans. We all connect with Fedor because he fights the fight and still points out his flaws and remains humble. "

http://www.mmasportsmag.com/interview_fedor_emelianenko3.htm

  • "I was at the hotel's lobby," said [BigFoot] Silva, "and I talked to him and asked him not to stop fighting because he still have many things to show to the fans and that people still wanted to see him on the cage. And, after that, the guy came and kissed my forehead. Get it? He's a wonderful guy, and everybody wants to see the best of all times in a good shape. He's all about being humble." "

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jeff_wagenheim/02/15/strikeforce/

  • "“I am human like everyone else. I don’t consider my achievements as a ‘legacy.’ I’ve never considered myself as a ‘legend’ – just a simple man with heart,” "

http://www.mmaweekly.com/fedor-emelianenko-talks-retirement-his-legacy-and-possible-drop-to-light-heavyweight Bigbaby23 (talk) 14:57, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

@Bigbaby23: That's some impressive work. I would now recommend you draft a "legacy" paragraph based on this information. Once we work the wording out here on the talk page I think we'll have a viable solution.
To answer some other points of yours:
  1. My point about Anderson Silva was meant to highlight the issue of recentism. I would posit that we shouldn't be assessing legacy till long after that person is dead. I understand, though, that this is a point people want to discuss. A legacy paragraph about Fedor should not make a contrasting argument about Anderson because it doesn't have to be one or the other.
  2. Despite the sources you've found, we'll have to be clear that some commentators and fighters think Fedor is the GOAT, as the assessment is not universal. We've had edit warring over this issue already so please couch your draft paragraph based on the facts, not assertions.
Thanks for your well-thought reply. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
@Chris troutman:. This subject is in the heart of every MMA fan, and people take it very seriously. Trust me lol . In order to avoid world war 3, I recommend you also delete the current and similar paragraph in Anderson Silva Lead, until we we make everything clear here regarding phrasing etc. Bigbaby23 (talk) 16:25, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Suggested Paragraph for Lead #1[edit]

"Emelianenko is Widely considered the greatest MMA heavyweight of all time, and the greatest master of the Ground-and-Pound fighting strategy in MMA History. MMA fans, overwhelmingly, also consider him to be the greatest MMA fighter of all time (GOAT), and so do many mma champions. Experts and analysts find it difficult to choose between him and Anderson Silva, for the accolade of GOAT. Though all consider him an MMA legend."

Suggested tweaks and ideas are welcome. Bigbaby23 (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Obviously, none of that is going to fly. (See WP:PEACOCK and WP:WEASEL.) It goes against exactly what I suggested. If you're not going to take this seriously I won't bother engaging with you. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:26, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
This is a joke right? Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 17:27, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Instead of watching me do all the work (citations and wording suggestion), and lecturing me, how about you suggest a paragraph?
WP:PEACOCK is irrelevant here, because everything is "with attribution". and so does WP:WEASEL no "vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated" here.
Why don't you insist on this in the Anderson Silva lead as well? are you a fan of his? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbaby23 (talkcontribs) 17:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
@Bigbaby23: I was willing to work with you but I don't think either article should have a legacy paragraph. I'm in the business of chasing vandals and POV warriors off this article; I don't care about the article about Silva. You want to make a change here, you have to justify it or no change will be made. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:01, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Chris, I don't appreciate your unconstructive and condescending tone. You are not an administrator. Bigbaby23 (talk) 18:32, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Both Peacock and Weasel are very relevant here. Additionally, Troutman is being extraordinarily patient in this situation, and providing the right information for you in developing content for Wikipedia. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 18:38, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Jeremy, i don't appreciate the atmosphere of WP:GANG as well. I put real effort in collecting WP:RS citations, and presenting the material in a very coherent fashion. all I've received here so far have been condecending remarks with a dash of WP:OWNER . If anyone has another suggestion on how to summarize the information above - please do. Bigbaby23 (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
WP:Gang does not prevent more than one person from disagreeing with someone, in fact the entire point of Wikipedia is voicing different opinions and coming up with consensus. It is not up to anyone else to assemble your references into prose; if you want new content, draft it. But if it is not compliant with Wikipedia policy, reversion is almost always going to happen on articles which have multiple editors watching them. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 19:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
As a caveat, I do think some of your sources are appropriate, and that Fedor was considered GOAT at a certain point in time, in addition to the best at several things, is a fact that can be included. But the way you are looking to do it is not neutral. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 19:20, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Ok. this is much better collaboration. your assertion that "Fedor was considered GOAT at a certain point in time" is WP:POV and WP:OR. and is not true. All my citations declaring him GOAT are recent. Perhaps you are confusing top P4P (pound-for-pound) with GOAT? It is true he used to be top P4P before Silva became top P4P see my "overview" on the top of the section, for explanation regarding both accolades. Bigbaby23 (talk) 20:10, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Finding 3-5 sources that say one thing, when another 3-5 say another thing, doesn't make a firm permanent fact--you can't say everyone, ever, and forever, considers Fedor better than Silva. I can find sources that can name any one of 7 fighters as the greatest ever at one point or another, and others that say MMA all-time rankings ignore Karate champions from the 70s, the 80s dominance of certain Brazilian fighters, and dominant Olympic martial arts champions. It is all subjective. So you have to ensure that you treat every source as subjective. To take it to most simplistic of levels, consider articles like this or this, that clearly show the kinds of publications you cited as believing only Fedor is #1, are split in other articles about the situation. There are other articles that leave Fedor out of the conversation entirely in favour of GSP or even Jones at this point. WP:OR would be saying Velasquez is bigger and badder than anyone Fedor ever fought. Or that Fedor never fought in the UFC, so his competition was consistently lower than the fighters who did. But I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Wikipedia does not make pronouncements based upon a section of what the press says; it treats all sides as valuable. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 20:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── My goodness. i specifically made subsections, in order to make everything clear. Go to 2) The Greatest Heavyweight Of All Time : Fedor is unquestionably #1 Heavyweight of all time. Now go to 4) The Greatest MMA Fighter Of All Time. GOAT subsection (which means considering all weight classes, Silva is a middleweight), you'll see it is divided into three parts 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 . I specifically do not make a POV. 4.1 = Fan Views (totally in favor Fedor), 4.2 = Fighting champions views (most on record cite fedor) 4.3 = Analysts (they are divided on the matter / cannot chose between the two). Hope things are getting clearer Bigbaby23 (talk) 21:46, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, it is not up to anyone else to complete your desired prose. However, that prose must be Wikipedia compliant. The prose you have is currently not. Also, you are ignoring the dozens of articles that do not say what you are saying. That's cherry-picking. Try something more along the lines of "x stated " ... " about Fedor; y state " ... " about Fedor", and only place items in the lead if they are a substantial part of the text below. No one is arguing against your sources. They are stated that your prose is not neutral and ignores other sources that conflict with yours. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 22:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Jeremy, I have multiple very mainstream sources backing every section. Do you have sources that contradict :
  • Fedor = Greatest Master Of Ground-and-Pound in MMA History,
  • Fedor = Greatest Heavyweight Of All Time,
  • Fedor = Longest reigning Top Pound-For-Pound fighter (P4P) in MMA History
  • Fedor = (By vast majority of fans views, Many Champions opinion, + analysts consider either him or Anderson Silva or both) The Greatest MMA Fighter Of All Time. (GOAT) .
I did my research. have some WP:AGF. This is the WP:NPOV data, or show me otherwise please, and sources that will tip the point of WP:Undue. Thanks Bigbaby23 (talk) 22:38, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Naturally once the facts are accepted, i can work on an appropriate paragraph. Bigbaby23 (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate that you've done research. But at this point your text is not neutral. You've fought half the battle to a good contribution, but you still need to develop the neutral prose. You've now had two different experienced editors try and help you with your prose, if you want to add this kind of content, please revise it. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 22:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Suggested Paragraph for Lead revision #2[edit]

Emelianenko status in the world of mma is that of a legend. From December 22, 2000 until June 26, 2010, he was unbeaten in his 28 appearances, including wins over five former UFC champions and five former K-1 champions, In the rare moments where an opponent seemed to be getting the better of him, his resilience became legendary. The first time he truly tasted defeat was in 2010. Major mma publications consider him to be the greatest mma heavyweight of all time. He is quoted as the longest reigning top pound for pound ranked fighter in mma history, with experts, analyzing his fighting style, depicting him as a complete fighter who was also the greatest master of the ground-and-pound fighting technique. Seven-time world karate champion and judo and brazilian jiu-jitsu Black Belt, Chuck Norris, asserted in December 2007: "Fedor is the best and greatest fighter and Martial Artist of all time". In March 2012, Boxing Hall of Fame inductee, Mike Tyson, also stated that Emelianenko is the greatest fighter in the history of the sport. According to multiple opinion polls; by a large margin, mma fans, vote Emelianenko to be the greatest mma fighter of all time (G.O.A.T). Many current and former mma champions hold this view as well. Among mma analysts there is no consensus on the subject, and many of them note it is difficult to choose between Emelianenko and middleweight mma fighter Anderson Silva for the title of G.O.A.T.

Emelianenko is also notable for being a very humble fighter. "“I am human like everyone else. I don’t consider my achievements as a ‘legacy.’ I’ve never considered myself as a ‘legend’ – just a simple man with heart,”". When asked if he agrees or disagrees with all the positive accolades bestowed upon him, He answered: "I try not to give these characterizations any thought and try not to attach importance to them. A man becomes complacent if he considers himself great. I try to live a normal human life. But I also appreciate the fact that martial arts fans get very excited about fighters and enjoy talking about them. And I do not want to offend my fans. I very much appreciate all of the kind words people say about me." Bigbaby23 (talk) 14:55, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

If the above two paragraphs are accepted, in order to avoid WP:CITEKILL, i will conduct citation merging, and place them in their appropriate place within the paragraph. Bigbaby23 (talk) 05:46, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

This text is pretty far from neutral and definitely not something that could appear on Wikipedia. Try:
"Emelianenko was undefeated as an MMA fighter for nine years, with wins over five former UFC champions and five former K-1 champions. He is the longest reigning top pound for pound ranked fighter in MMA history, and considered an innovator of the ground-and-pound fighting technique. Fighters in other sports, such as Chuck Norris and Mike Tyson, have stated they believed he is the best MMA fighter of all time, in addition to some fan and opinion polls. Among MMA analysts there is no consensus on the subject."
It is neutral, keeps the facts, avoids substantial WP:Coatracking, and doesn't attempt to puff the subject up in a cloud of promotional phrasing. Words like "legend" are peacock words that should always be avoided. After all, hundreds of thousands of biographies on this site refer to "legends" in their fields--if it were used in every case it could be cited, the word would lose its meaning pretty quickly. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 14:31, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. you are diminishing an mma Icon who would be equaled to the status of Pele in soccer, Jordan in basketball etc. I'm guessing you don't follow the sport of mma.
The word "Legend" is not WP:Peacock, because it is attributed. (i can cite multiple references)
WP:LEAD "The lead is the first part of the article most people read, and many only read the lead. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article". You are making it very dry. It's a long article, it deserves more than few lines in the lead. I believe your pre-conceived ideas about how a lead should look are in fact clashing with WP:NPOV.
Everything i added is a Neutral point of view and gives Due weight to published material in Reliable sources Bigbaby23 (talk) 15:46, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
You can argue against the reality of neutrality on Wikipedia until you have carpel tunnel, but there is no way of adding non-neutral material. That you do not understand what neutral material is, does not really matter unless you actually want to make a contribution to the site. What you are proposing will never work, and you will never convince anybody that it will work. Wasting your energy on trying to wiki-lawyer the community is only going to be increasingly frustrating for you. I suggest you move on to another article, or reduce your level of rhetoric here. On a personal note, no, Fedor is not anywhere near the level of Pele or Jordan. He did not increase the visibility of MMA single-handedly, and is not considered to be a fighter whose feats will never be challenged. His place in the ranking is a matter of debate; for individuals like Jordan, Pele, Gretzky, there is no debate, however this situation is closer to finding the greatest QB or MLB pitcher, where there are only a handful of individuals that can be seen as the best, but there is no clear answer. Also, having a source that uses peacock language does not override WP:Peacock. It still can't be used. It may annoy you that Fedor is not being treated with the same acclaim in the lead as a Jordan or Pele, but that is because Fedor is not quantifiably the same as per his place in the sport of MMA. Lastly, I would not presume the level of knowledge that another person has of MMA or sports in general on a site of anonymous editors. WP:Civility is the most important rule here. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 16:35, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I had a feeling our debate has reached a dead end, hence i conformed to wikipedia guidelines to request an RfC which you seem to call wiki-lawyering. I don't appreciate your snarky "carpel tunnel" remark. that is for sure not WP:Civility.
Concerning relevant issues you have raised. WP:NPOV: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." I have meticulously followed this guideline, with multiple citations from different mainstream mma sources that come to the same conclusion on each fact. I have added non controversial facts. You have yet to demonstrate a volume of same caliber sources that contradict the facts I have stated. I honestly feel your suggestions are in conflict with this very policy. and i would like other editors (RFC) give their opinion on the matter.
Some people think Pele is number one and others Maradona . but these two are the only ones discussed as far as soccer GOAT. the same with NBA, Kobe Bryant is in the picture of GOAT along with Jordan. In MMA the only two discussed on that caliber are fedor and anderson silva, the only difference is mma is a much younger sport. I disagree with the comparison of "greatest QB or MLB pitcher", this would be comparable in mma to "greatest striker" or "greatest grappler" etc in mma.
Unless we can move along with the constructive discussion, I prefer we wait for other editors input on the matter. Thank you Bigbaby23 (talk) 17:41, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Just to back up my last point. This is what one of the most respected mma analysts (Jack Slack) had to sum up about fedor and anderson silva status in mma "What we can agree on is that both of these men changed the game. In a sport where everyone loses, these men beat the best of the best and held off the inevitable for the longest. Few men in any field can lay claim to such accomplishment and influence over their own sport." Source Bigbaby23 (talk) 19:32, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
You opened an RFC. The appropriate place to continue an argument is there. You have been unable to convince me of your POV, and your text is clearly non-neutral. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 20:07, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Suggested Paragraph for Lead revision #3[edit]

Emelianenko's impact on the combat sport of mixed martial arts has been compared to the likes of Michael jordan impact on basketball, Muhammad Ali impact on professional boxing, Wayne Gretzky impact on Professional ice hockey, Pele impact on soccer and Babe Ruth impact on professional baseball.[1][2][3][4][5]

From December 22, 2000 until June 26, 2010, he was unbeaten in his 28 appearances, including wins over five former UFC champions, five former K-1 champions and a former Olympic medalist. Sports Illustrated named him the top mma fighter of the decade. [6] Sports and mma publications; Espn [7] Bleacher report, [8] Sherdog.com [9] , mmafighting.com [10] FightMatrix.com [11] list him as the greatest mma heavyweight fighter of all time. Emelianenko is also the longest reigning top Pound for Pound ranked fighter (7 years) in mma history. [12][13] When looking at his fighting accomplishments statistically - Emelianenko clearly comes out the greatest mma fighter in the history of the sport.[14]

Fighters in other combat sports, such as Chuck Norris and Mike Tyson have stated they believed he is the greatest MMA fighter of all time. Nine current and former mma champions share this view as well. Opinion polls show that the majority of mma fans, share this opinion. Views of mma pundits vary between him and middleweight mma fighter Anderson Silva for the title "Greatest of all time". Bigbaby23 (talk) 19:33, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd take out "When looking at his fighting accomplishments statistically - Emelianenko clearly comes out the greatest mma fighter in the history of the sport." as, well, ya just can't do that on Wikipedia. Also rewrite the entirety of the third part as it's NPOV. Much closer though. One other thing: this isn't lead material, it is subsection material that could lead to adding a similar sentence in the lead to what Silva has. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 20:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Suggested Paragraph for Lead revision #4[edit]

I will simply make that final line exactly of Anderson Silva text and caliber of references (i have checked all of them):

From December 22, 2000 until June 26, 2010, he was unbeaten in his 28 appearances, including wins over five former UFC champions, five former K-1 champions and two former Olympic medalists. Sports Illustrated named him the top mma fighter of the decade. [15] Sports and mma media; Espn, [16] Bleacher report, [17] Sherdog.com, [18] , mmafighting.com [19] and FightMatrix.com [20] list him as the greatest mma heavyweight fighter of all time. Emelianenko is also the longest reigning top Pound for Pound ranked fighter (7 years) in mma history. [21][22] Martial artist Chuck Norris and boxing hall of fame inductee Mike Tyson and other publications have called Emelianenko the greatest mixed martial artist of all time.[23][24][25][26][27][28][29] Emelianenko retired from fighting on June 2012,[30] and is now president of the Russian mma union.[31] Bigbaby23 (talk) 22:43, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I have no issue with any of this content; though you should be careful not to add anything to the lead not already in the body. So adding the content may require some to go into the lead, with others put into the body. That said, you did open an RFC, so you'll have to get consensus there at this point to add anything, rather than beforehand, where a more simple consensus on the talk page could have been possible. So I'd recommend presenting the precise text and method you are looking to employ in the RFC itself so that it is properly updated. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 22:28, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
(And yes I do recognize the ridulousness of the procedural need to move your comment here a few comments down for that to happen). Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 22:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Caveat: my agreeance is restricted to this version: here. Additional items such as adding descriptions to the name of Norris or Tyson has been added, re-adding promotionalism to the paragraphs. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 22:52, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
What seems to be the problem? in the Silva article the style of text is "UFC president Dana White" a description + wikilink. Bigbaby23 (talk) 23:01, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
@Jeremy112233:. Jeremy lets finish this, and be done with it. The RfC is history now. Lets not turn this into an unnecessary tedious affair. Bigbaby23 (talk) 23:31, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
You can't just cancel an RFC on your own. Please ensure you return it and leave it up until it is complete. You were the one who wanted it up, but you need consensus to remove it. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 23:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Should the lead contain the suggested paragraphs ?[edit]

Consensus appears to have been reached outside of this RFC. Number 57 11:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the suggested paragraphs in the GOAT (greatest of all time) section in talk page, be in the lead of the article ? Bigbaby23 (talk) 15:44, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Strong oppose - after speaking to two different editors, both of which disagreed with him, Bigbaby23 decided to open this RFC instead of work with the other editors on toning down the non-neutral aspects of their desired contribution. Their text is promotional, non-neutral, and efforts to help them amend their text have been met with little cooperation. While there is a way to include some of their facts and sources, this is not a constructive contribution. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 20:13, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose BigBaby23 did fair research only to write biased nonsense. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:52, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems, our differences have come to an end with version #4, and the RfC i started is not needed. As advised in Ending RfCs. i'm simply removing the RfC template Bigbaby23 (talk) 22:57, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

  • I have applied for a review and acceptance in the article, of my definitive Paragraphs addition suggestion to the lead (under the current first paragraph). There seems to be dispute regarding the policy of closing this RfC. So for the protocol, the following is the paragraph to be commented on here:

From December 22, 2000 until June 26, 2010, Emelianenko was unbeaten in his 28 mma fights, including wins over five former UFC champions, five former K-1 champions and two former Olympic medalists. Sports Illustrated named him the top mma fighter of the decade.[1] He is considered the best ground-and-pound artist in the history of sport.[2] Sports and mma media; Espn,[3] Bleacher report,[4] Sherdog.com,[5] mmafighting.com[6] and FightMatrix.com[7] list him as the greatest mma heavyweight fighter of all time. Emelianenko is also the longest reigning top Pound for Pound ranked fighter (7 years) in mma history.[8][9] Former combat sports fighters Chuck Norris and Mike Tyson and other publications have called Emelianenko the greatest mixed martial artist of all time.[10][11] Emelianenko retired from fighting on June 2012,[12] and is now president of the Russian mma union.[13]

Emelianenko's impact and legacy in mixed martial arts has been compared to the likes of Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Wayne Gretzky, Pele and Babe Ruth, and their status in their respective sports.[14]

The raw format with the listed cited references, in available in my sandbox, or the article History page (my 3 request together there, make up the above paragraph). Bigbaby23 (talk) 12:18, 17 May 2014 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.