Talk:Harmful algal bloom

Merge with Red tide

So I think this should be merged with red tide. Red tide is a colloquial term for a scientific phenomenon. We should redirect red tide to here. What say the rest of you guys? OptimistBen 04:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The red tide page is rather limited right now, because lots of other HAB related issues link there, even though they are not red or tidal. -Gomm 20:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gomm (talk • contribs)

"I think they should remain separate for clarity of understanding. Red tides are regional, mainly marine, (salt water) and are caused by various organisms clearly named in that article. Harmful algal blooms refer to a much broader category, can be fresh or salt water and are caused by a much wider variety of organisms. The existing links from one article to the other are more than adequate to enable a person to focus on the most appropriate area of study." Photojack53 08:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree they should remain separate. Although the terms 'harmful algal bloom' and 'red tide' are often used interchangeably, this usage is incorrect and there is a trend among the HAB community to move away from this.--Bosco911 16:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the strong reasoning above that red tide and HAB should not be merged. While at first glance the terms appear synonymous, there are important differences that merit each having its own article. This discussion has been around for a few months, and I believe consensus exists not to merge. I'm removing the merge tags accordingly; if anyone disagrees please revert my changes and keep discussing. -FrankTobia (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

These are two terms referring to the same phenomenon, and they should definitely be merged, regardless of any terminology nitpicking. The "Red tide" article is bigger and more comprehensive, while the HAB article is a mere stub created to advance a particular viewpoint (that the term "Harmful algal bloom" is allegedly "more scientific"). There are no citiations substantiating this alleged superiority, and Google yields only 103K hits for "harmful algal bloom" as opposed to 722K for "red tide"--a clear indication that "red tide" is the more common term. While you may personally feel that it is inaccurate, please do not use Wikipedia as an instrument for pushing your agenda.

See also the Wikipedia guideline about merging, and note that the article in question fulfills not merely one, but all four of the criteria listed for merging articles--this is more than enough. The proper way would be to mention the alternative name and its rationale in the article (this has already been done), merge, then recreate the HAB page as a redirect to the merged article.

I replaced the appropriate merge tags; I'll wait a week or two for input, then I'll go ahead with the merger. Freederick (talk) 11:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

HAB is definately more correct scientifically-this refers to blooms of algae that are harmful or potentially harmful. About 300 species of microalgae are reported to form mass occurrences, so-called 'blooms', and nearly one-fourth of these species are known to produce toxins (from Hallegraeff et al. 2003. Manual on Harmful Marine Microalgae. UNESCO). Red tide is a term used colloquially to describe blooms of non-toxic species as well: Noctiluca being one example that produces fine red coloured blooms. Halfsnail (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC).

I guess things haven't moved on much!  ;-) As HAB is now the favoured scientific term, I'd favour merging red tide into HAB rather than the other way round. Even the red tide article explains why red tides are really just one example of a wider phenomenon. Cheers, --PLUMBAGO 17:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I'll try to remember to pop back here in a week or so to perform the merge. Looks like it's long overdue judging from the date that Gomm first proposed this.

Fully agree. As a 'non specialist' user who just came in here to understand what's going on off the coast of Oman at the moment, there does not appear to me to be any need for two separate articles. Just make Red Tide a subset of HAB and be done with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.231.245.5 (talk) 14:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC) sure why not you

HAB is a diffrent phenomenon than Red Tide, so lets just give red tide a more scientific name and get it over with.

I fully and compleatly agree! They are two related, but seperate subjects that should be kept apart! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.54.197 (talk) 22:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC) While not exactly the same it would be better to have both together. Most will look them up for the same reasons - the toxins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.18.119 (talk) 03:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I think both should be seperate for clarity and understanding Preyus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.227.89 (talk) 10:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

New merge discussion

So here's the current situation. We have three articles:

• Algal bloom: About algal blooms in general, whether or not they produce harmful toxins.
• Harmful algal bloom: About algal blooms which produce harmful toxins.
• Red tide: About algal blooms and the term "red tide."

I don't know what a more appropriate organisation is, but the current organisation is clearly counterproductive. For example, all three of them describe causes of algal blooms:

• Algal bloom: "Algal blooms are the result of an excess of nutrients, particularly phosphorus. The excess of nutrients may originate from fertilizers that are applied to land for agricultural or recreational purposes, these nutrients can then enter watersheds through water runoff."
• Harmful algal bloom: "The frequency and severity of HABs in some parts of the world have been linked to increased nutrient loading from human activities. In other areas, HABs are a predictable seasonal occurrence resulting from coastal upwelling, a natural result of the movement of certain ocean currents."
• Red tide: "Red tides are caused by increase in nutrients that algae need, usually from runoff from a farm, causing an overpopulation. Their occurrence in some locations appear to be entirely natural,[1] while in others they appear to be a result of human activities."

This redundancy is a problem. I'm going to boldly propose that all three of these articles be merged into a single article, with sections for the "red tide" term and harmful blooms in particular, unless there is significant disagreement. If you disagree, please suggest a different organisation. It may be that three articles is fine, but the content needs to be reorganised to eliminate redundancy. Dcoetzee 01:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there is a problem with merging red tide with algal bloom. All red tides are algal blooms, though only some algal blooms are red tides, and the only thing special about a red tide that differentiates it from other algal blooms is its colour. However, that is not the case with harmful algal blooms. It is true that a harmful algal bloom is a special case of an algal bloom, but it is a particularly special case. A normal algal bloom is a benign event that nourishes zooplankton and forage fish. A harmful algal bloom is toxic, with radical consequences, leading to the opposite effects. If you are going to merge, then for consistency you should also consider merging dead zone and eutrophication into algal bloom as well. But all of these are substantial topics in their own right. --Geronimo20 (talk) 21:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I would support merging all three pages. I think the segregation that exists at the moment is a hindrance to understanding algal blooms (in all their forms), which must surely be the primary function of the articles. As a marine biologist, I'm also a little concerned about the distinction between what are being termed "harmful algal blooms" and "algal blooms", as the articles tend to imply that "algal blooms" are always benign. I would like to see these distinctions emerging in the combined article:

• Red Tide is a colloquial term for a bloom of red or brown pigmented algae. Depending on the algae concerned, it may be an HAB or an AB.
• Algal Bloom is a generic term for a short-term over-abundance of algae. It is often very harmful to the ecosystem due to anoxic conditions as the algae decay (basically the rapid decomposition of a huge algal mass consumes all the oxygen in the water column, killing everything that can't move out of the area).
• Harmful Algal Bloom is a term generally referring to a bloom of toxic algae (such as dinoflagellates Alexandrium spp. and Karenia spp.). The variant of algae concerned becomes important because it can have knock-on toxicity impacts dues to absorption of toxins by fish, shellfish, etc and their subsequent consumption by seabirds, larger marine organisms and humans, as well as the anoxia problems of other algal blooms.

In a combined article, I think these distinctions would be clearer and there would be far less redundancy and confusion. Mikespoff (talk) 02:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

In terms of naming convention, I think that "Red Tide" should definitely redirect to the main article, which (in the interests of the most generic naming) should probably be titled "Algal Blooms". Mikespoff (talk) 02:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)