Talk:History of special relativity

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Physics: Relativity / History Mid‑importance

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In a certain sense

@JFB80: in this edit, you wrote that Minkowski later, in his 1908 "Space and Time" lecture, noted that space-time is "in a certain sense" a four-dimensional non-Euclidean manifold. I checked both the original source and the translations, but couldn't find exacly where and how Minkowski noted this. Can you clarify? Thx. - DVdm (talk) 10:36, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing this out. Writing from memory I thought the quotation came from the Space and Time lecture but it is from the introductory remarks to the earlier Goettingen lecture of 1907. This was mentioned by Scott Walter on p.6 of his much quoted article on the non-Euclidean style of Minkowskian relativity There is also a mention of non-Euclidean geometry later in the lecture (equation 3)) which Scott Walter also comments on. I'll have to correct what I wrote. I see that Minkowski's velocity 4-vector w is different from what is now called the Minkowski velocity 4-vector. So the resulting non-Euclidean space will not agree with its later interpretation. JFB80 (talk) 19:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thx! - DVdm (talk) 20:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The hyperboloid model of hyperbolic geometry explains the relevance to relativity.Rgdboer (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is something in this section which should be pointed out. It says the non-Euclidean style had little to show in the way of creative power of discovery This is surely rather ridiculous since the non-Euclidean form enabled Borel in 1913 to predict the Thomas precession many years before its discovery by Thomas. Any comments? If not I will delete it JFB80 (talk) 11:19, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That was certainly an attempt to explain why the non-euclidean style didn't gain much support in the early days of relativity. Despite of the "long and winding" history of the hyperboloid model... --D.H (talk) 11:43, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It was not only in the early days that the non-Euclidean theory didnt get support, it never ever got support - not for over 100 years now. Can you quote one respectable present-day physics textbook (e.g. used in university courses) which gives a good description? It is not in Landau & Lifshitz for example (even though these authors were from the same circle as Smorodinski who had shown how useful hyperbolic geometry was in a particle physics) The history of the hyperboloid model is mainly something separate in pure mathematics but there are not many references to it. JFB80 (talk) 04:44, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Later: In saying never ever I should have mentioned the one exception of Silberstein 1914 Theory of Relativity. Also that Whittaker 1951 History .... made systematic use of hyperbolic trigonometry. But no-one more recently described the geometrical ideas of the theory which have been ignored in mainstream literature.JFB80 (talk) 05:04, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

3.2.2 Kaufmann and Bucherer Experiments

The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

WhiteBeard120 (talk · contribs) This user has declared a connection. (declared here)

This section does not distinguish between experiments done with radium as the source of electrons (beta rays) and cathodes as sources of electrons.

Earlier work by Kaufmann (not cited here) and the cited work by Bucherer used radium. The cited work by Kaufmann used cathodes.

The distinction is material because the electrons from radium have velocities approaching 90% of c. Velocities from cathodes are limited to much smaller velocities discharges from dielectric breakdown. The relativistic effects are much easier to detect at the higher velocities.

Also, Lorentz's 1904 paper reanalyzed Kaufmann's results with a radium source.

WhiteBeard120 (talk) 14:32, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

I am requesting this edit because the proposed edit cites work that I authored. I am disclosing this COI.

Note also that the changes in this proposed edit bring it into consistency with Kaufmann–Bucherer–Neumann experiments

Kaufmann-Bucherer-Neumann experiments

Kaufmann (1903) presented results of his experiments on the charge-to-mass ratio of beta rays from a radium source, showing the dependence of the velocity on mass. He announced that these results confirmed Abraham's theory. However, Lorentz (1904a) reanalyzed results from Kaufmann (1903) against his theory and based on the data in tables concluded (p. 828) that the agreement with his theory "is seen to come out no less satisfactory than" with Abraham's theory. A recent reanalysis of the data from Kaufmann (1903) confirms that Lorentz's theory (1904a) does agree substantially better than Abraham's theory when applied to data from Kaufmann (1903).^[1] Kaufmann (1905, 1906) presented further results, this time with electrons from cathode rays. They represented, in his opinion, a clear refutation of the relativity principle and the Lorentz-Einstein-Theory, and a confirmation of Abraham's theory. For some years Kaufmann's experiments represented a weighty objection against the relativity principle, although it was criticized by Planck and Adolf Bestelmeyer (1906). Other physicists working with beta rays from radium, like Alfred Bucherer (1908) and Günther Neumann (1914), following on Bucherer's work and improving on his methods, also examined the velocity-dependence of mass and this time it was thought that the "Lorentz-Einstein theory" and the relativity principle were confirmed, and Abraham's theory disproved. Kaufmann–Bucherer–Neumann experiments A distinction needs to be made between work with beta ray electrons and cathode ray electrons since beta rays from radium have a substantially larger velocities than cathode-ray electrons and so relativistic effects are very substantially easier to detect with beta rays. Kaufmann's experiments with electrons from cathode rays only showed a qualitative mass increase of moving electrons, but they were not precise enough to distinguish between the models of Lorentz-Einstein and Abraham. It was not until 1940, when experiments with electrons from cathode rays were repeated with sufficient accuracy for confirming the Lorentz-Einstein formula.[74] However, this problem occurred only with this kind of experiment. The investigations of the fine structure of the hydrogen lines already in 1917 provided a clear confirmation of the Lorentz-Einstein formula and the refutation of Abraham's theory.[78]

WhiteBeard120 (talk) 22:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Heartmusic678 (talk) 11:14, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Popp, Bruce D. (2020). Henri Poincaré : electrons to special relativity : translation of selected papers and discussion. Cham: Springer International Publishing. pp. 178–83. ISBN 978-3-030-48038-7.

Nomenclature: when did it become called "special relativity"?

As part of the history, I'm interested in the now-standard term "special relativity." When did this theory become known as the "special" version of relativity; once the theory of "general relativity" had come out? And, when did the term "relativity" become associated with both theories? -- Dan Griscom (talk) 00:27, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Anachronism in the Introduction

"This can be stated as: as far as the laws of mechanics are concerned, all observers in inertial motion are equally privileged, and no preferred state of motion can be attributed to any particular inertial observer."

This sentence is Einsteinian jargon, Newton would never have said something like this. Newton would not have used the word "observers" in this context. I think that this sentence needs to be restated without the relativistic jargon. Zeyn1 (talk) 12:07, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that in this context we can confidently interpret an observer as a person who is making observations, which Newton certainly could have easily conceived. Furthermore, this phrasing has the advantage of paving the way for the more strict jargon that is used in special relativity, which after all is the subject of the article.

Also, note that this phrasing is directly taken from Poincaré. See &4 in section History of special relativity#Lorentz's 1904 model.

So, i.m.o. there is no problem — on the contrary actually. - DVdm (talk) 12:45, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Popp, Bruce D. (2020). Henri Poincaré : electrons to special relativity : translation of selected papers and discussion. Cham: Springer International Publishing. pp. 178–83. ISBN 978-3-030-48038-7.

[1]