Talk:Israel at the 2024 Summer Olympics

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Yuval Freilich - Fencing[edit]

What does his win at the Epee Grand Prix event in Qatar do in terms of him qualifying for Paris? MaskedSinger (talk) 12:08, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Artistic Swimming - duets[edit]

Believe the duet made it - could someone please confirm and add. TIA. https://insidesynchro.org/2024-olympic-games-qualification/ MaskedSinger (talk) 08:17, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmed. https://www.worldaquatics.com/news/3891106/artistic-swimming-at-the-paris-2024-olympics-qualified-noc-quota-positions MaskedSinger (talk) 08:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Calls to ban due to invasion of Gaza[edit]

There are sources needing to be covered in this page. Like [1], [2], [3] and [4]. --Mhhossein talk 21:32, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Politics and sport[edit]

I get that there's a need for some to besmirch Israel as much as possible and while we wouldn't want to deprive them of this opportunity - this page is about Israel's athletes and how they perform at the 2024 Olympics. If there are other issues that come up, they can be added to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Summer_Olympics#Participation_of_Israeli_athletes but i don't see any reason why it should be added to this page. Thoughts?? MaskedSinger (talk) 09:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given what Thomas Bach just said - https://apnews.com/article/paris-olympics-ioc-bach-israel-russia-8b6005213cb0e680bf533c0454ece216 - there is no reason for this nonsense to stay here. If people feel the need to add it to Wikipedia they can add it to Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics. Knock yourself out. MaskedSinger (talk) 06:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we are not waiting for verification by Thomas Bach from AP news or so. The page is not only on "Israel's athletes and how they perform at the 2024 Olympics." Controversies may always arise during the various incidents and unless they are not backed by reliable sources, they should not be excluded from the pages they belong to. The wholesale removal of a well sourced section which directly address the topic of Israel at the 2024 Olympic game. The suggested page by is also another suitable destination for the material under discussion. --Mhhossein talk 10:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also there are other pages with similar sections (all good articles); Israel at the 2016 Summer Olympics#Controversy 2022 Winter Olympics#Concerns and controversies, 2008 Summer Olympics#Concerns and controversies. --Mhhossein talk 10:30, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
im not sure why this is so hard to understand.
1) the content is already on wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_and_controversies_at_the_2024_Summer_Olympics#Participation_of_Israeli_athletes
There is no need for it to be here twice.
2) With regard to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_at_the_2016_Summer_Olympics#Controversy, apart from the facebook thing, its about controversy that happened once the games started
3) Your double standards are atrocious. You stand behind well sourced content needing to stay...but yet when Thomas Bach comes out and says Israels participation at the Games isn't even a question, you dismiss it. You can't have it both ways unless your hate of Israel allows it. Right?
But what I find interesting is that you haven't made any edits Iran at the 2024 Summer Olympics which shows that you don't care about sports or the Olympics. 99% of your edits since October 7 have been anti-Israel in nature and so you come here to troll. How would you think if I start editing pages about Iran and what not? You'd probably think same.
Ive got no interest in fighting or whatnot. What I care about is sport and Israel and so I enjoy editing this page. You coming here and doing what you're doing is bad form and definitely not in the Olympic spirit. MaskedSinger (talk) 17:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is better if you avoid making personal attack against me. Whether I "care about sports or the Olympics" is not relevant to our discussion and you should not comment on the editors. Also referencing to "double standards" is another personal attack. I suggest you refer to Wikipedia policies and guidelines when discussing at the talk pages. See the following:
1-Well, that does not mean we should remove the content from other pages as long as it matches the topic and does not violate the WP core content policies.
2-This is not the only one instance, you may find more in my comments. So please don't remove them.
3-I don't dismiss Thomas Bach. I say we don't remove content because of his comments. You may even proceed to insert his comments in the article if it is backed by reliable sources.
4-This page is not only for Sport aspects of Israel participation in 2024 Olympics game. What ever the reliable sources publish regarding "Israel at 2024 Summer Olympics game" can be included here. Mhhossein talk 20:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to dignify your trolling with a response. What I will say is that it's great that you want to return to Old-fashioned Wikipedian values, it would be even better if you actually followed these values in practice. MaskedSinger (talk) 06:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MaskedSinger It is not a good language. Will you remove the personal attacks you just made against me? Calling others comments as "trolling" is way above the WP:PA threshold. But instead of going to admins, given the pervious warning I made, I prefer to ask you avoid it and remove your attacks. Also, you should not juge others behavior. Whether or not I abide by OFWV in practice, is not something you are encouraged to comment on. It can be another PA. --Mhhossein talk 21:27, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to go to admins. You're someone who doesn't like Israel editing pages that have to do with Israel. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see what's going on here. MaskedSinger (talk) 22:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So after you went to ANI and it went as expected, you're back to edit warring here....You have a clear COI in making the edits you're making here. As has been said to you repeatedly, the same content you're trying to add is on the Olympics controversy page. No need for it to be here as well and in the interests of making this a friendly, conflict-free place, you should just stop. MaskedSinger (talk) 05:14, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MaskedSinger: You are again making personal attacks by accusing me of having COI. Anyway, is there any guidelines stating that the discussed content should only be used in Olympics controversy page? Your revert is just edit war in face of the policy-based arguments I raised. --Mhhossein talk 10:00, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Answering here for the benefit of @Bishonen as well :)
The content in question is WP:NOTNEWS. Some people suggested Israel be kicked out of the 2024 Olympics and the IOC very quickly and emphatically dismissed this. Done. Case closed.
Be that as it may, it's on Concerns_and_controversies_at_the_2024_Summer_Olympics#Participation_of_Israeli_athletes but this isn't sufficient for Mhhossein who also wants to add it here, when there is no reason for it to be here. WP:INCONSIDERATE
This is where the question of optics comes into play - Mhhossein is a proud Muslim and proud Iranian who doesn't like Israel. This isn't an accusation but an observation based on his edits, especially since October 7. Nothing wrong hating on Israel - plenty do. Many israelis do! But when you have an agenda with your edits, it becomes an issue. Coming to an Israel-related page and adding questionable anti-israel edits again and again and again, even though the content is already on wikipedia is incendiary and provocative. It's a matter of Common sense
Now another editor may say, ok, it's already on wikipedia, if people are upset with me adding it in another place as well, in the interests of making wikkipedia a conflict free place, ill let this go. Otherwise its WP:POINT
That would be cool and we can all get on with our lives.
Salaam MaskedSinger (talk) 11:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MaskedSinger Please clarify. How is this a WP:COI rather than simple WP:Advocacy which says "Advocacy is closely related to conflict of interest, but differs in that advocacy is a general term for promotional and agenda-based editing, while conflict of interest primarily describes promotional editing by those with a close personal or financial connection to the subject."? {{WP:COI]] says "If a user's edits lead you to believe that they might have a COI (that is, if they have an "apparent COI"), and there has been no COI disclosure, consider first whether the issue may be simple advocacy. Most advocacy does not involve COI. Whether an editor is engaged in advocacy should first be addressed at the user's talk page, then at WP:NPOVN, the neutral-point-of-view noticeboard." Doug Weller talk 11:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cause I didn't know about WP:Advocacy ;) not coi then. ignore and replace with advocacy. There's a lot more i dont know that i do! MaskedSinger (talk) 11:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i apologise to you kind sir, Mhhossein. i said COI when i meant WP:advocacy. Please forgive my error. MaskedSinger (talk) 11:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(After several edit conflicts.) Thanks, Doug Weller. Being a proud Muslim and a proud Iranian is by no means a COI, MaskedSinger. If you had looked at the links I gave you on your page, either WP:COI, or Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide, you would know this. As for your thinking it would be cool if Mhhossein let it go, I expect he thinks it would be cool if you let it go. Material being already on wikipedia, as you point out in bold, is not per se a reason it shouldn't be in other articles on Wikipedia as well. It seems obvious that the material should indeed be at Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics (where it is now). That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't also be here, preferably in shortened form, and with a reference to the fuller treatment at the Concerns and controversies article. That, with use of the {{main}} template, is extremely common on Wikipedia. You can look at the "Family" section at Donald Trump for an example. Bishonen | tålk 12:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]
I don't understand what you're saying. Its not COI but it is WP:ADVOCACY and you just ignore this???? MaskedSinger (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be frank: It's no more advocacy than your attempts to remove it are. The edit warring is not good (this edit summary of yours is doubleplusungood), and if it continues, I'll protect the article. It's a pity only the two of you are arguing about it here on talk. Either one of you could try the Third opinion, a lightweight dispute resolution form intended for just such cases as this. Or just try to achieve a compromise along the lines I have suggested (=with the {{main}} template). Bishonen | tålk 12:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]
lol. i never wanted to argue! but he kept on re-adding it... MaskedSinger (talk) 12:19, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what's "lol" here. The edit warring? Your bad edit summary? The notion that you are equally guilty of advocacy? The idea of dispute resolution, or of compromise? Or did you just see the word "arguing" and ignore everything else I said? Bishonen | tålk 14:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]
i think you've lost all objectivity here.
Equating what we did as analogous is silly and it's hard to take anything else you say seriously. MaskedSinger (talk) 14:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Bishonen for the clarifications. I tried to build consensus here but MaskedSinger's persistent personal attacks made the progress nearly impossible. You are correct with the notion that 3rd opinion could be tried. Also, I told him on 12 March that " [the existence of another suitable destination] does not mean we should remove the content from other pages as long as it matches the topic and does not violate the WP core content policies." I was willing to discuss the change! but he kept on removing it. I am going to restore the content based on the exchanged discussion taking the Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics into consideration. --Mhhossein talk 15:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tweaked the language in the lede, but the stuff at the bottom is all WP:NOTNEWS and more so WP:ADVOCACY which hasn't been addressed at all! MaskedSinger (talk) 17:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The version in the lead is suffering from neutrality issues. First because per MOS:OP-ED, the application of "despite" creates a synthetic contrast which is not supported by the sources. Secondly, the pervious version were giving due weight to both POVs (those calling for ban and those saying there will be no issue for the athletes). the call ban from the French lawmaker, for instance, is an important POV you removed. I will restore the former wording if you are not offering a neutral version.
As for the removal of the subsection on 'double-standard' accusations, can you say in what way WP:NOTNEWS or WP:ADVOCACY are applied? Please get sure you are familiar with the mentioned guidelines. --Mhhossein talk 22:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have to applaud your Chutzpah in calling out neutrality issues.
You're great at citing every guideline under the sun, but are seemingly unaware of WP:ADVOCACY which you refuse to acknowledge or address. I'm not going to entertain any discussion with you until you do so. MaskedSinger (talk) 05:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wished you had taken lessons from @Doug Weller and @Bishonen's comments regarding WP:ADVOCACY. Describing an editor as 'refusing' to "acknowledge or address" something, can be a comment on him/her, an act which is prohibited by WP:PA (maybe you can take it as the last warning). In my previous comment I explained why your version was a violation of WP:NPOV and I expected you to offer me a due response. I have to go back to the pervious version, unless you can contribute to reaching a compromise (as advised by Bishonen). --Mhhossein talk 21:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mhhossein, I'm a little disappointed that you thanked me for my advice about Third opinion but haven't followed it. In a conflict where only two people are involved, and both have strong opinions, it's often difficult for them to reach a compromise on their own. That certainly seems to be happening here. Bishonen | tålk 21:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC).[reply]
@Bishonen: Thanks for the comment and sorry to hear you got disappointed. I highly welcome the 3rd opinion option but what is the merit when the other party is not even willing to give a response to my comment? I explained why his edit made the text POVish but the response was a reference to WP:ADVOCACY. --Mhhossein talk 22:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I need to add that he removed a whole subsection. I showed my objection hoping to have the other party's feedback. Nothing yet, but 'advocacy' accusations. --Mhhossein talk 22:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lede is not appropriate for this page. It does not follow wp:lede. Appears to be POV-driven unbalanced. Whoever wrote it may not know better - but they should read wp:lede. If they still act this way they are being disruptive. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:D82E:65C4:B917:424D (talk) 01:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Double standard accusations against the IOC[edit]

@MaskedSinger: Let's have it here for an easier navigation of the discussions. You removed a subsection on 'double-standard' accusations. I asked you to explain in what way WP:NOTNEWS or WP:ADVOCACY could be applied. But your response was not an explanation. Your response can help building consensus over the inclusion/removal of the content. I don't think they should be removed on the basis of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:ADVOCACY. Advocacy is not relevant to the content dispute and notnews is not applicable simply because the content seems to have "enduring notability". --Mhhossein talk 22:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shavua Tov!
Not sure if you know this, but there's a war going on - people are upset with Israel. They think Israel should be banned from the 2024 Games but they're not going to be.
So people are doubly upset about this. And this is your life's work?? To add it to Wikipedia??
What's going on here? Like what's really going on?
You've got nothing better going on in your life that we have to waste hours arguing How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
And then once the Games start this is going to change due to WP:UNDUE. So what actually is the point of it?
You've come to a page to which you have zero interest apart from the fact that it allows you to add anti-Israel content. People who like Israel and like the Olympics reverted your edits. Not just me - 2 others.
And sure I didn't talk nicely to you, but I was frustrated with how obtuse and passive aggressive you are. You have a staggering lack of self-awareness.
You went to ANI and were intellectually dishonest with what you posted there. Claiming this was all about another editor being uncivil to you. @Bishonen was the only editor to respond and you didn't get the response you like so you followed up on their page where once again, you didn't disclose all the facts. Then you misspoke for Bishnonen above.
Furthermore you love to use words like consensus and compromise, but when push comes to shove what you really mean is you getting your way.
I'm done giving you oxygen and making you feel relevant. MaskedSinger (talk) 17:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to see your PAs again. Things like "you have a staggering lack of self-awareness" are impolite and disappointing. Aside from the personal attacks, do you have any substantiated objections against inclusion of the content? --Mhhossein talk 16:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MaskedSinger: you need to use more WP:CIVIL language or we'll end up at WP:AE. Your comments are unacceptable.VR (Please ping on reply) 22:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're right that content on wikipedia is dynamic. And what is present on the page may indeed become WP:UNDUE once the coverage shifts (but also mind WP:RECENTISM). For now, though, most of the coverage in RS about Israel's participation is political. And we should reflect that. Do you have any suggestions for rewording that? VR (Please ping on reply) 22:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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