Talk:Karagiozis

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Karagöz is a turkish character , i can not understand WHY greek steal it and show it as theirs...

Yes, they do. --Cemalmelih 11:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is called 'cultural interaction'. Pictureuploader 11:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nations living together always gets into cultural integretion and i think that's perfectly fine. In this case of Greeks and Turks, the two nations that are bizzarely alike (No matter how much each countries' citizens would deny it), actually it is more likely to integrate to each other. Yet I still think karagöz should have its own page; and shouldn't be redirected to here. The greek "Karagiozis" looks way more different than Turkish "Karagöz", plus Turkish "Karagöz" is always mentioned together with "Hacivat" while "Karagiozis" is the sole main character.
My point is this; if Tzatziki and Cacık have their own pages though they are the absolute same thing, two distinct plays of Karagöz and Karagiozis should have their own pages, referring each other. (By the way Karagöz beats Karagiozis in googlefight vy far :P) Comments?
Yes why not? I started this article, and it was expanded by a Turk, who added information on Karagoz (although he should begin a new article or make a separate section on it). I agree with you, buti cannot help, since I don't know anything about the turkish version. Pictureuploader 20:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, but it is not cultural interaction. It is only a cultural theft. As Greeks stole Turkish coffee.

Coffee has its origins in Ethiopia and Yemen So you "stole" it too Shadow play started in China,Indonesia and Thailand so you "stole" it again

If it's 'theft' for you, then how many words have turks stole from Greeks? Pictureuploader 09:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As you have words from Turkish. Dear Pictureuploader, I don't disagree to cultural interaction. But there's important thing: when I speak to most of Greeks, they avoid to admit roots of Karagöz. If you say, Karagozis is based on Karagöz, then be my guest to use it as you like. But this belongs to Turkish culture. In 2004 Athens Olympics, Greece showed Karagozis and they said a greek shadow play. They didn't say where this shadow game come from. This is why I am so emotional. Most appetizers in Turkey comes from Greece; none of us denies it. We want you to act same. Don't deny where Karagozis come from and refer to Karagöz. That's not much to ask.
The article is clear about that and btw copyright doesn't work in cultural heritage and folklore. Or else Skandinavians should sue American fantasy authors for using elements from their mythology. Your article is here; work on it. Pictureuploader 15:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Ottoman empire had subjects of many ethnic groups, and several of them had puppetry traditions, with both the modern Karagoez and Karagiozis sharing common roots in those traditions. (There is evidence that both the Greek-language Karagiozis was played in the Ottoman empire, but that ethnic Greek puppeteers played Turkish-language Karagoez plays). It's not a matter of theft, but of two contemporary cultures sharing a wealth of historical culture. This is precisely analogous to the situation in Europe in which German (Kasperle), the Czech Republic (Kasparek), England (Punch), Holland (Jan Klaasen), and France (Pulchinelle) have puppetry traditions with common roots in the Italian Commedy (which may itself have roots in Roman, or even an ancient pool of mediterranean traditions). No one speaks of theft in any of these cases, but all happily recognize equally legitimate claims to a common inheritance with rich local variations. Karagoez and Karagiozis should have separate pages of their own, and those pages should include mention of the mutuality of these traditions, with appropriate links.

Greek or Vlach?[edit]

"Barba Yorgos (Uncle George), he represents the original Greek from the mountains, uncontaminated by urban trends; he is usually on some business related visit in the lowlands, he is a Vlach from Rumeli in mainland Greece." I think this is a contradiction. --91.148.159.4 23:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It means 'vlaxos' as in the Greek ethnic slur Pictureuploader 23:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't know anything about this, but the term "ethnic slur" suggests referring to an ethnicity. If vlachos is sometimes used as a synonym of a "primitive peasant from the mountains" or something like that, then that meaning should be mentioned in the Vlach article that Karagiozis links to, and the Karagiozis article should make it clear that that's the relevant meaning of the word in this case. I'm not doing it myself now, not out of laziness, but because I don't know if that is the case in the first place. --91.148.159.4 12:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Origin[edit]

"Karagiozis seems to have come to mainland Greece, probably from Asia Minor (Anatolia) in the 19th century, during Ottoman rule. Karagiozis was hellenized in Patras, Greece in the end of 19th century by Dimitrios Sardounis alias Mimaros, who is considered the founder of modern Greek shadow theater."

Why not just say that its origin is ottoman/turkish? It is clearly an adaptation from Karagöz and Hacivat that already existed in the 14th century, long before the greeks adapted it. These names are obviously of islamic and turkish origin. Haci is an islamic honorific, Avat is a turkish name and Karagöz translates to black eyes (means sneaky, violent). Why not openly say then that it is turkish instead of building these strange sentence constructions that say exactly that, without actually saying it? There is no shame by the way in adapting from other cultures. The shame lies in lying about it and being dishonest. The turks themselves also adapted the concept of shadowplay from asia. As the article says, shadowplays originated in indonesia/india/china.

The ottomans had a large empire and brought many things from various regions in contact with the other regions and by doing this they created new knowledge and new products by fusion. Also, like the greek/ottoman cuisine, many cultural aspects of the subject peoples blossomed under ottoman rule. This nationalistic fight of the former ottoman subject peoples that this or that food/music/instrument is theirs is ridiculous. Greeks and various other peoples lived under ottoman rule for at least 600 years and were undeniably affected. Take for example the greek cuisine. Many ingredients that are now used today and are part of the greek cuisine were not known to the greeks prior to the ottoman era. Ingredients such as coffee (yemen,arabia), eggplants (india, central asia) etc were introduced by the ottomans from other regions. Other ingredients such as peppers, tomatoes, potatoes etc which came from america after it was discovered by columbus were introduced while greece was part of the ottoman empire and because of that it is ottoman cuisine, not greek cuisine. These dishes originated in the ottoman empire during ottoman reign. Pure greek cuisine is what the greeks knew in ancient greece, the byzantine empire and what they create now after their independence. Same goes with a lot of other aspects of greek or other former ottoman subject people's culture. All this denial of ottoman influence and culture is a sign of turcophobia. They just want to portray turks as a barbaric people which contributed nothing to the world but only destroyed and stole. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 00:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish Karagöz[edit]

This article has a lot of duplicate content. Since the origin is indisputably Turkish, I propose this article to be merged to Karagöz and Hacivat. --Mttll (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]


It doesn't have to be mergedbut it should be emphasized that the Greek version is a plain adaptation of the Turkish characters; as do the names suggest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.40.255.105 (talk) 16:44, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good description of these tales in Laurence Durrell's "In Prospero's Cell" q.v.

81.178.130.173 (talk) 23:11, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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