Talk:Killing of Zijie Yan

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Requested move 2 September 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Killing of Zijie Yan. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 14:19, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shooting of Zijie Yan → Death of Zijie Yan – Neutral title until conviction is secured. -- Jax 0677 (talk) 01:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I don't think "Shooting" is necessarily not neutral (as he was shot, that's pretty much an accepted fact). But "Shooting of X" is generally reserved when the victim did not die. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Killing of Zijie Yan. "Killing" is typically used when someone is killed but there is no murder conviction (Killing of O'Shae Sibley, Killing of Eina Kwon, Killing of Ajike Owens) TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Scratch my above !vote, I agree with this. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Killing of Zijie Yan. As this follows the naming conventions for violence and death articles and Killing of ..... articles. Conviction is needed to call this murder because there is both a physical act and a mental element of intent involved with this crime. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 03:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Death, weak oppose Killing The current title was chosen based on advice in the WP:KILLINGOF essay (Sometimes, the manner in which the victim was killed will figure prominently in media coverage ...). Though the WP:DEATHS flowchart says "Shooting" is reserved for non-deaths, this is not a distinction that's actually observed (six of the top ten autocomplete hits for "Shooting of" were fatal). Hameltion (talk | contribs) 14:32, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's definitely a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, and I'd say that articles like Shooting of Sean Bell, Shooting of Vivian Strong, Shooting of Sean Monterrosa, etc. would likely be renamed to "Killing" (per WP:DEATHS) were they to go to RM. 162 etc. (talk) 16:29, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OSE isn't about titles, but I take your point (you'll notice I said "weak oppose"). I'd actually most like to see the RM banner off the article page, though – perhaps this discussion can be closed early and the page just moved to "Killing" (I'm the main author, page started very recently, WP:IAR). Hameltion (talk | contribs) 17:09, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The common feature of Shooting of Sean Bell, Shooting of Vivian Strong, Shooting of Sean Monterrosa, as well as other fatal shooting articles chosen from the autocomplete list, such as the Shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, Shooting of Jacob Blake, Shooting of Daniel Shaver, and Shooting of James Ashley is that all of them involved the person concerned being shot and killed by police officer(s). In most police shootings, the police officers concerned are either found not guilty, or not even charged, as the death is seen, by the prosecution or the courts as a justifiable homicide, so is not considered a crime. I think these exceptions are the effect of using the most recognizable common name for an article title. I suspect if you were to ask to rename any of these articles, you might end up with the advice at WP:KILLINGOF and WP:DEATHS being amended to say that where fatal shootings occur as a result of justifiable law enforcement actions and the officers involved are not convicted of murder or manslaughter, then "Shooting of <a suspected criminal>" is an appropriate title as these are not crimes, so neither "Death" nor "Killing" are sufficiently precise to describe the events that happened.
But that is not the case with this article, which has an undecided murder charge that will affect the article name. I would be happy to continue discussing the best name for this article, and only decide after the verdict of the court. If one considers WP:SUSPECT, there is an argument that it is WP:TOOSOON to even have an article, as the final article name is dependent upon any conviction decision. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Killing of" refers to homicide, whether criminal or not. "Justifiable law enforcement actions" are a very grey area, especially in regards to BLM-related articles - which many of these are. Ultimately, WP:COMMONNAME is the most important consideration. 162 etc. (talk) 17:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: What about titling as 2023 UNC-Chapel Hill shooting or 2023 UNC-Chapel Hill faculty shooting. It is a big incident in the university that resulted to class cancelation of 2-3 days and campus-wide grief. Using either name of Zijie Yan or Tailei Qi may not be notable enough. When searching news, many people may firstly search keyword like UNC shooting.--Peach Blossom 21:08, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Peach Blossom: While naming conventions for events might render those titles, the overall criteria for naming an article needs to balance being precise and concise as well as being consistent with similar articles, along with giving it a commonly recognizable name. In this case, one person was shot and killed and Wikipedia's usual convention is to name the article about what happened to the victim of a crime - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Killing of Zijie Yan as the title, this was a violent homicidal death. We don't need to wait for any conviction. Killuminator (talk) 11:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 18:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Hameltion (talk). Self-nominated at 17:56, 5 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Shooting of Zijie Yan; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • Article is neutral, meets the required length, and is free from copyvio and expertly referenced—created on 1 September, within seven days of this nomination. The hook is succinct, neutral, and reliably sourced; importantly, it is also delicate with the subject matter. QPQ looks good. This is good to go. Thank you for working on this important topic, and for treating it with care. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 00:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Rhain, thanks for reviewing. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 01:54, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Propose deletion[edit]

As a reader, I can’t see why this incident is noteworthy enough to warrant an entry in Wikipedia. Newzild (talk) 02:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant sections of WP:Notability (events) include WP:GEOSCOPE (national/international coverage in NYT, Independent (UK), etc.) and WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE (i.e., analysis/use as case study in AP, N&O). Hameltion (talk | contribs) 04:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Motive?[edit]

There doesn't seem to be any discussion of the shooter's motive (or even possible motives). That's usually the first thing in the "second wave" of media coverage, even if it's speculation. There's more discussion of the "unrelated lockdown two weeks later"; if the motive is entirely unknown, the article should say so. Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 21:13, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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