Talk:Kunigami language

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Japan / Ryukyu (Rated Start-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 23:13, September 10, 2014 (JST, Heisei 26) (Refresh)
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This page is supported by the Ryukyu task force.
 
WikiProject Languages (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of standardized, informative and easy-to-use resources about languages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 

Comparisons[edit]

I think it would be great if this article included a bit more comparisons to Okinawan; that it's a separate language from Japanese is a given, but I think that for many readers it would be a surprise to learn that Kunigami is considered a separate language from Central & Southern Okinawan.

Also, while I understand the value of IPA to linguists, there are those of us who approach this topic from a Japanese Studies (or Okinawan Studies) background, an approach which I would argue is equally valid. For those of us with an intimate understanding of Japanese - kanji, kana, and romaji - and a strong interest in the various Ryukyuan languages, but no knowledge of IPA, it would be wonderful if more kana were used, and if more care were taken to represent romaji more accurately. This is not just a matter of what would be easier for me, or some weak argument like that, but indeed speaks to the accuracy of representing the language as it would be written natively, i.e. in kana, along with the closest English transliteration (romaji).

I'd make these changes myself, but as the state it's in is already incomprehensible, I can't know what's being referred to well enough to make the proper changes. What's a glottal stop doing in the middle of haʔkai? Is that just はかい, or does Kunigami uses particularly noted glottal stops where Japanese does not?

Thanks. LordAmeth (talk) 12:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

LordAmeth, that's not a glottal stop, it's a glottalized consonant. Most of these sounds do not have a standard representation in kana, since there is no standardized kana version of the IPA. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Then its transcription is just plain wrong. Is the consonant preglottalized (/ˀk/) or just 'simply' glottalized (/kˀ/)? --JorisvS (talk) 22:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
LordAmeth, please try to understand that kanji, hiragana, and katakana are the orthography of the Japanese language. They cannot be accurately used to write non-Japanese languages, as they've been developed to represent Japanese phonology only. IPA is the only way to transcribe words so that the pronunciation is unambiguous. As most, if not all, of the Ryukyu languages lack a native writing system (and even if they had a writing system, it would be imperfect, as all writing systems are) we have to do the best we can with IPA. As for the glottalized consonants, I too am very confused. As it is transcribed, haʔkai contains a glottal stop, which is different from /ˀk/ and /kˀ/, not to mention the vague possibility that what the article describes as "glottalized consonants" could include ejectives. Do we have any published work containing a phoneme inventory?? 97.81.65.138 (talk) 05:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Oddness in “Vocabulary” section[edit]

The Vocabulary section is a bit strange at present. It currently notes, in its entirety (bolding mine):

The Kunigami language has some words of unclear etymology, such as Nakijin dialect shintsun (/ʃíntʃún/), which is an intransitive verb meaning "to sink." This word has often been compared with the Old Japanese and Classical Japanese verb しづく shidzuku, which appears in ancient poetry with the sense of "to be sunk at the bottom of a body of water, to rest on the bottom; to be seen through water." However, if Nakijin sincun is ultimately cognate with Old Japanese shidzuku, the two forms must have descended from different Proto-Japonic dialectal variants, because the phonological correspondence between the Nakijin form and the Old Japanese form is irregular.

This was added by anon user 67.171.213.134 (talk · contribs) in this edit on 22 Feb 2007. It's a mystery to me why this user even mentions shidzuku, which appears to be a poor match both phonetically and semantically (as partially mentioned above), when there's the much-closer match of しづむ shidzumu, which also appears in ancient poetry (such as the Man'yōshū of roughly 759 CE; see poem #229) with the sense of “to sink” (intransitive verb). To my eyes and ears, sincun and shidzumu fit much better, especially considering that /mu/ has historically changed into /n/ in numerous phonological contexts even in standard mainland Japanese, and this alternate related term obviates any cognate controversy and thus moots this whole section.

As such, I'm removing the Vocabulary section, since its entire content appears to be incorrect. -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 23:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there was any particular problem in that section. Speaking about semantics, Early Middle Japanese 沈く siduk- and 沈む sidum- had similar meanings as verbs. Furthermore, Okinawan ending -c[-un] points to earlier -k or -t; compare Nakijin シンちュン haʔcun "to write" which is cognate to Japanese 書く kak-. The -un part is common in present predicative form of every verb, and has nothing to do with マ行四段活用. Tskm04 (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

ルーちュー[edit]

On Ryukyu Islands the Kunigami word ルーちュー is mentioned. Is the use of a hiragana chi an error, or is there something special going on in Kunigami?

There is debate on whether to use hiragana or katakana to write Ryūkyūan languages, but that was just a mistake and I've corrected it. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 17:48, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
By the way, you should sign your posts with tildes (~~~~) so other editors know who you are and can easily contact you on your talk page. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 17:59, 30 May 2014 (UTC)