Talk:Leyte Gulf order of battle

Musashi (and other prelude losses)

The article title is Leyte Gulf order of battle, so the Musashi should be included. It was sunk in the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea. That action is part of the Battle of Leyte Gulf. I understand that the first paragraph of this page says, "Of the five separate engagements that made up the battle as a whole, the forces involved in the three principal ones are listed here." However, that is an arbitrary limitation. The sinking of the largest battleship in the history of the world (and 1,000 of her crew), which also cost Kurita a significant weight of broadside for his Center Force, is not a trivial matter. I think there are three ways to include the Musashi and other lost ships without having to replicate large chunks of the page.

One option would be to add a section at the beginning, entitled Losses in the Battles of the Palawan Passage and the Sibuyan Sea. It wouldn't be necessary to replicate the entire ORBAT. It would simply begin with a descriptive sentence like: "The following ships were lost from the Center Force that was later engaged in the Battle off Samar." It would list the Atago, Maya, and Musashi as lost, and Takao, Naganami, Asashimo, Myōkō, Kiyoshimo, and Hamakaze as withdrawn, against the loss of Darter and Princeton and withdrawal of Birmingham. For each, I think it would make sense to list by the force of which they were a part, like this:

Japanese Losses

Losses to Center Force A, 1st Section

Battleship Division 1

Battleship Musashi (sunk, Battle of Sibuyan Sea)

Cruiser Division 4

Heavy cruiser Atago (sunk, Battle of Palawan Passage)

Heavy cruiser Maya (sunk, Battle of Palawan Passage)

Heavy cruiser Takao (withdrawn, Battle of Palawan Passage)

Cruiser Division 5

Heavy cruiser Myōkō (withdrawn, Battle of Sibuyan Sea)

Destroyer Division 31

Destroyer Asashimo (withdrawn, Battle of Palawan Passage)

Destroyer Naganini (withdrawn, Battle of Palawan Passage)

Losses to Center Force A, 2st Section

Destroyer Squadron 10

Destroyer Kiyoshimo (withdrawn, Battle of Sibuyan Sea)

Destroyer Division 17

Destroyer Hamakaze (withdrawn, Battle of Sibuyan Sea)

American Losses

Losses to Task Group 71.1

Submarine Darter (ran aground, Battle of Palawan Passage)

Losses to Task Force 38.3

Light carrier Princeton (sunk, Battle of Sibuyan Sea)

The second option would be to include the Japanese ships within the ORBAT for the Battle off Samar section, as follows:

Centre Force ('Force A') (sortied from Brunei Bay 22 Oct)

1st Section

Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita

Battleship Division 1 (Vice Adm. Matome Ugaki)

1 new battleship

• Yamato (9 x 46 cm main battery)
• ☓ Musashi (9 x 46 cm main battery) (sunk before engagement)

1 old battleship

• Nagato (8 x 40.6 cm main battery)

The second approach is trickier, because then TF 38.3 would have to be listed in order to account for the loss of the Princeton. On the other hand, it's already in use in a way, since the article includes Takao as part of Cruiser Division 4, when Takao never even participated in the Battle of Samar, having already disengaged with the two destroyers and one torpedo boat.

The third, most complete option is the most complicated. You'd do the first option for Losses in the Battle of the Palawan Passage, but add a separate section, Battle of the Sibuyan Sea. It would look like this:

Battle of the Sibuyan Sea

Japanese Forces

As Centre Force for Battle off Samar (q.v.)

Additionally:

• Musashi (9 x 46 cm main battery) (sunk)

American Forces

Aircraft from Task Force 38.2

Rear Admiral Gerald F. Bogan

Fleet Carrier

Intrepid (Capt. J.F. Bolger)

Air Group 18 (Cmdr. W.E. Ellis)

VF-18: 38 F6F Hellcat fighters, 5 F6F-xN Hellcat night fighters

VB-18: 28 SB2C Helldiver dive bombers

VT-18: 18 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

Escort carrier

Cabot (Capt. S.J. Michael)

Air Group 29 (Lt. Cmdr. W.E. Eder)

VF-29: 21 F6F Hellcat fighters

VT-29:   1 TBF Avenger, 8 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

Aircraft from Task Force 38.3

Rear Admiral Frederick C. Sherman

2 fleet carriers

Essex (Capt. C.W. Wheeler)

Air Group 15 (Cmdr. H.T. Utter)

VF-15: 46 F6F Hellcat fighters, 4 F6F-xN Hellcat night fighters

VB-15: 25 SB2C Helldiver dive bombers

VT-15: 15 TBF Avenger, 5 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

Lexington (Capt. E.W. Litch)

Air Group 19 (Cmdr. T.H. Winters)

VF-19: 37 F6F Hellcat fighters, 4 F6F-xN Hellcat night fighters

VB-19: 30 SB2C Helldiver dive bombers

VT-19: 18 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

Light carrier

Princeton (Capt. W.H. Buracker) (sunk by Japanese First Air Fleet aircraft based on Luzon)

Air Group 27 (Lt. Cmdr. F.A. Bardshar)

VF-27: 21 F6F Hellcat fighters

VT-27:   9 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers (not engaged)

Aircraft from Task Force 38.4

Rear Admiral Ralph E. Davison

2 fleet carriers

Franklin (Capt. J.M. Shoemaker)

Air Group 13 (Cmdr. R.L. Kibbe)

VF-13: 34 F6F Hellcat fighters, 4 F6F-xN Hellcat night fighters

VB-13: 31 SB2C Helldiver dive bombers

VT-13: 18 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

Enterprise (Capt. Cato D. Glover)

Air Group 20 (Cmdr. D.F. Smith)

VF-20: 35 F6F Hellcat fighters, 4 F6F-xN Hellcat night fighters

VB-20: 34 SB2C Helldiver dive bombers

VT-20: 19 TBF Avenger, 5 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers

The nice thing about the third option is that includes the contributions from the American carriers whose planes sank Musashi.

The first option is simplest, but I think the third option is the best. Either way, the inclusion should happen. The loss of a battleship, an aircraft carrier, 2 cruisers, and a submarine are significant, and shouldn't be ignored in an articles whose title clearly suggests that it is about the entire Battle of Leyte Gulf. Sacxpert (talk) 11:50, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Incomplete order of battle for Cape Engano

I'm told by the YouTuber Drachinifel it's "only listing TG38.1, not TG38.8 and TF34, which were also present." I asked as the list seemed a bit small. Will (Talk - contribs) 16:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)