Talk:List of National Rugby League records

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Most points[edit]

I like this page. Just one small thing that kinda bothers me. Rugby league is primarily a game of tries, not kicks for goal. That's why it's so great, right? So I think records like most career tries, or most tries in a season, etc are much more important/interesting/relevant, than most career points, most points in a season, etc (which invariably go to teams' goal-kickers). You have to scroll down through the top point-scorers to get to the top try-scorers. This is rugby league records, not rugby union records. Was thinking maybe re-ordering/re-formatting the lists could be good?--Jeff79 03:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have a sneaking suspicion that this list (Most points in a season) only takes into account NRL results and not NSWRL, SL or ARL. Could be wrong though.--Jeff79 07:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's got Mick Cronin on the list, so it must include all results. I think they probably just score more points now.CEP78 00:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right you are. No doubt because in 1983 the number of points awarded for a try went up from three to four. This I think lends more weight to my argument that records in rugby league should be detailed in wikipedia primarily in terms of tries and secondarily in terms of points.--Jeff79 00:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with that, goals are secondary to a try.CEP78 00:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah this page incorporates all competitions from 1908, including Super League, but is only according to stats from 1967 onwards in most cases (for individual points scorers from here). It is by no means complete, so feel free to add new sections into it. That said, leave points scorers even if it means moving them down below try scorers. --mdmanser 06:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
By no means do I want to replace top point-scorers data with top try-scorers data. I think both should appear. But when it comes to making the choice of which should appear first, I think tries take precedence.--Jeff79 18:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree I think the leading point scorers have more influence in the game, El Masri(who is 6th all time try scorer as well, obviously you need to cross for tries as well if you want a chance at the record) and Johns definitely played a bigger part in the game compared to Irvine and Menzies. And If you look to the future the next player to take the point scoring record will probably be Thurston, if anyone, who is once again the greatest player at the moment. El Masri has one countless games for his team solely from his boot, lead them to a premiereship. Leading point scorers are just generally celebrated more within the game and the community. Also, to debate the change in points awarded for a try, when you think about it, a try was a lot easier back then because the sport was no where near as professional. They didnt have the athletes they have today going around. So in a way, a try is probably worth more now days as it is a lot harder to achieve. I dont think Ken Irvine would be crossing for too many if he went out for a run.. Just think of it this way, the leading try scorer of a team is NEVER their best player, Rugby League is not about that. (Jim) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.75.11 (talk) 04:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Change to main table[edit]

Could a option be added to the table where it can sorted in a category you want? Say you want to know the teams listed with most wons you click on the wins heading and it sorts the teams by most wins? Kind of like with the English Premier League all time table?Muzgrob 08:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 19:14, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

List of NSWRL/ARL/SL/NRL records → List of NRL records – That it includes previous incarnations of the NRL can be explained in the opening sentence. Their records are not separated in any reliable source, and indeed aren't in this list either. The link to List of NRL Grand final records can be placed in a hatnote or the 'see also' section. Relisted Hot Stop talk-contribs 04:29, 11 March 2014 (UTC) Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. There has never been any distinction between the record sets. When someone rewrote the NRL article a few years ago portraying it as new competition, it led to a number of unwarranted splits in statistical articles/lists.
I agree also. All the official records go back to 1908. Doctorhawkes (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I do see your point. But I think the Super League and National Rugby League situations are quite different. Here and in sources the histories of the clubs and their players and coaches, as well as records for premiership games and grand finals, all run uninterrupted. That leaves very little to be separated, other than the administration's name. The use of "Australian" doesn't sit well with me as it could be construed as excluding New Zealand's club. It also could be construed as involving domestic records from competitions outside the League. I understand sources separate Super League and pre-Super League records (I presonally wish they wouldn't. Who really wants to know who scored the most tries since 1996 without regard for the previous century?), but it's just not the case here.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 22:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Either name is better than the current title though, and one should redirect to the other in any case in order to avoid duplication. J Mo 101 (talk) 08:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Team wins, losses and draws - Warriors Win-loss typo[edit]

I noticed that the Warriors match total, wins and losses are inconsistent with each other. 442 total matches vs 700 wins vs 7 draws vs 2 losses. I checked Vodafone Warriors website but their history only runs through to end of 2010 season so I cant edit the correct wins, draws and losses in. I've made a request for the website to update their stats and I can do so to the wiki if no one else can do so before then.

Cowboys 1st august[edit]

18-0 down to win 32-24, with 32 points yeah agai st raiders — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.85.35 (talk) 09:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 24 June 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. DrStrauss talk 19:00, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]


List of NRL records → List of National Rugby League records – :"NRL records" seemed to me to refer to music records initially. better to unabbreviate to prevent confusion and ambiguity 68.151.25.115 (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support: avoiding abbreviations where possible is always good practice. Mattlore (talk) 22:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Wayne's 900[edit]

There have been a number of reversions of Bennett's record of 900 games. There has a number of supporting sources, including here: [1] and being mentioned everywhere in the press. It's also discussed on Bennett's article. Can anyone support a figure of 896 without WP:OR? Doctorhawkes (talk) 04:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In 2002, Craig Bellamy stood in for Bennett for two games at Brisbane. Bennett was absent for those matches. In 2020, Jason Demetriou stood in for him for two games at South Sydney. Bennet was absent there as well. It is verifiable that he wasn't at those games, ie he didn't coach them. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 04:32, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why does someone have to be at the ground to be considered "coach"? And, do you have a source supporting the stat of 896? At the moment it sounds you've just taken the proposed figure of 900 and subtracted 4 games you consider he wasn't coach for, which is WP:OR. Doctorhawkes (talk) 04:36, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Does a player get credited with a game he doesn't take to the field for? No he doesn't. Same principle applies to coaching. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 04:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I updated Wayne's total games on his article based off of the official NRL statistics which list him as coaching 900, broken down by club. You'll find that source under the infobox, and while it's not perfect (it creates an extra BRL game seemingly out of thin air) it's still better than whatever was going on with Wayne's stats here beforehand. We used to cite rugbyleagueproject as the source for 896 games, but rugbyleagueproject lists Bennett's games so far at 898, even though it omits the 2 games Bellamy coached from his 2002 total and is also missing 2 Rabbitohs games, seemingly for the same reason with Demetriou. So where the hell did it pull 2 extra games from? Neither source is fully reliable, but if I had to choose absent any better third option I'd rather not contradict the NRL's official stance on NRL games (I'm still fully convinced they pulled the extra BRL game out of their arse though). PhinsUp23 (talk) 10:21, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just tallied up rugbyleagueproject's numbers again to double check and if you add all of their per-season game totals together (even 2002 which is missing Bellamy's 2 games) you get the same number as the NRL: 631. So we can safely say Bellamy's 2 games were not counted to begin with.
So even if we were to contradict the NRL we should still be saying 898 like rugbyleagueproject, not the 896 number that seemed to arise as a result of incorrect game tallying on Wayne's old infobox. What gets me is how the NRL could remember that Bellamy coached 2 Broncos games 20 years ago but somehow forget if 2 games were handled by a substitute only 2 ago. PhinsUp23 (talk) 10:32, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Went looking for info about the author of the stats the NRL published. Turns out they were tallied by the same guy who compiles the official rugby league annual, and somebody asked him about this on twitter last week. Despite not being present due to breaching COVID protocols, Bennett was apparently "coaching remotely"
https://twitter.com/Middleton_David/status/1654687905795969027
Odd as that might sound, I would also like to point out that if you go to the NRL's website and look at the 2 matches in question, even though Demetriou is in the press conferences, Bennett is still in the team lists as the coach. This shows that the NRL still considers him as coaching those games, because they do actually change those (e.g. when Ricky Stuart was suspended for 1 match last year. the nrl page for the Raiders game in round 22 2022 does not list ricky stuart as coach) Maybe Demetriou had Bennett on a zoom call the entire time or something so the NRL does not consider him standing in in the same way Bellamy did. If this is true, we should probably remove the games from Demetriou's article, since he must not have been the one making the important calls. PhinsUp23 (talk) 10:48, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a tricky one, as there's no question Bellamy took charge of the "Baby Broncos" in 2002 at least. https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/nrl/teams/broncos/nrl-2015-how-the-baby-broncos-stunned-the-wests-tigers-in-2002/news-story/c46c40bba2f34d4b84138e7029aa5b37 . So are the NRL bean counters saying that means nothing, and that Bennett was coach despite being absent, or, as in the case of Terry Lamb's game count, they just have made a mistake? My 2 cents agrees with Cody, but it is probably OR Local Potentate (talk) 07:52, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So after all that you end up, in a rare occurrence, actually agreeing with me? But I'm still locked out of updating stats? 220.236.126.177 (talk) 11:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody disputes Bellamy coaching 2 games, not even the NRL. The 896 number came about because somebody put the wrong stats in Wayne's old infobox and ended up dropping 2 more - even the old source gave 898.
The issue in contention is the 2 games in 2020, which you believe should not be counted but which the NRL's statistician seem to think should be. As I said before, Wayne was not present due to COVID protocols rather than a suspension or origin duties so its entirely possible the NRL recognises him as having coached them via zoom or something. PhinsUp23 (talk) 11:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think that clears it up, at least for what wikipedia should portray. If Middleton is saying those 2 count, making the total 900, even though it seems a bit iffy, that's what we have to go with. Local Potentate (talk) 12:30, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you STILL settle on the factually proven to be wrong number. Nice going. And you wonder why we have problems. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 12:36, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to provide literally anything to support your claim dude. Go ask the NRL if you have to.
At the end of the day every official source gives the 2 games to Bennett. Even Demetriou’s coach page only lists him as having coached 38 games, not 40 (https://www.rabbitohs.com.au/teams/nrl-premiership/south-sydney-rabbitohs/jason-demetriou/)
I understand why it seems odd to count Bennett as coach if he wasn’t physically there but considering that the only source that contradicts that narrative is an unofficial record of games I don’t see why we should be telling the NRL they’re wrong. COVID obviously caused exceptional circumstances that allowed Bennett to coach remotely or there would be no debate. He would be listed as not having coached, plain and simple, like when Bellamy took over for him or when Ricky Stuart was suspended from coaching for a week. PhinsUp23 (talk) 14:09, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because the NRL aren't always 100% definitively right, smartass. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 14:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But you are? PhinsUp23 (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Show me where I said that. I'll wait. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 15:07, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Creating more problems than you're fixing. Now is this to say because Bennett is at "900" (which he isn't) that the two games Bellamy coached for him should be wiped off Bellamy's tally as though they never happened? Bellamy was there, Bennett wasn't. It can't be both. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 03:06, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As I have already said, nobody disputes the 2 games in 2002. If you break Bennett’s 631 games with the Broncos down by season, you will find that he only coached 26 of the 28 in 2002. If those 2 were counted Bennett would have 633 games with the Broncos for 902 total (excluding the BRL).
The only debate is the 2 Rabbitohs games, which the NRL considers to have been “coached remotely” by Bennett rather than wholly by a stand-in coach. PhinsUp23 (talk) 03:49, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting discussion here from everyone, definitely one of those circumstances where multiple things are "right" insofar as Bennett was suspended from coaching for 14 days in 2020, [2] [3] but the NRL (and their official statistician David Middleton) are choosing to overlook that fact now, but the RLP team are not. It's similar to the Craig Bellamy situation in 2008 when Stephen Kearney and Michael Maguire took charge of the Storm for two matches with Bellamy elsewhere on Origin duties. I tend to agree with CC in this case re Bennett, but unfortunately we have to go with the plurality of sources (even if they're technically wrong). Storm machine (talk) 23:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
According to Middleton, the COVID leave was not technically a suspension, which is why they can count the games. Compare last year when Ricky Stuart was suspended and was not allowed any contact with the team for a week. Middleton seems to suggest Bennett fulfilled his coaching duties remotely. PhinsUp23 (talk) 23:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As various media reports at the time stated [4] [5] [6] [7] and even the official NRL website [8] Demetriou was the "stand-in" or caretaker coach for those two games. As CC intimated, the NRL is notorious for this kind of narrative manipulation with their own statistics and history. Storm machine (talk) 00:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, they are inconsistent with it, considering they acknowledge Demetriou had some role but don’t credit his profile with the 2 games. I assume Bennett was on a zoom call with him or something given the “coaching remotely” comments but we don’t really have any way to verify that PhinsUp23 (talk) 00:16, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"the NRL is notorious for this kind of narrative manipulation with their own statistics and history." If you know this why do you still willingly go along with it? 220.236.126.177 (talk) 05:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's more a lack of attention to detail, Middleton's annuals were often riddled with errors Local Potentate (talk) 10:33, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe an asterisk would work? "* Includes two games in 2020 whilst under COVID isolation"Local Potentate (talk) 10:31, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

that's a pretty good idea. I chucked one in there, if somebody else wants to word it better then go ahead, or if everybody else is vehemently against the idea for some reason then just get rid of it. PhinsUp23 (talk) 11:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay but now why are you inflating Cleary's tally? 220.236.126.177 (talk) 12:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because everything says 408? His Wikipedia article lists 408 games, rugbyleagueproject lists 408 games, a fox league article gave a total of 370 after the 2021 season (plus 27 last year and 11 this year equals 408).
yet again the only thing to suggest he mysteriously didn’t coach four games is your opinion, unbacked by any source. And considering that you are still being obstructive by overriding Bennett’s data despite the added caveat, despite having no evidence to support your claim, despite no other editors being in consensus with you, and despite you being blocked for this exact behaviour, I see no reason to trust your word on the matter over the data we already have. PhinsUp23 (talk) 13:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First of all it's not "your opinion". Second, you seem to forget he missed 4 games last year when he was hospitalised. Third, Bennet at 900 as opposed to 902 comes from Bellamy's fill in games from 2002. So you can drop it with the 'obstructive'. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 14:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You can’t even get your own facts straight. You’ve been arguing about Bennett’s games with the Rabbitohs this whole time and now change tack to Bellamy, even though as I have already said multiple times the 2 games Bellamy coached are not included in Bennett’s totals because the NRL actually does credit those to Bellamy and not Bennett. PhinsUp23 (talk) 14:55, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you done talking down your nose at me? Obviously not. If you're not going to display records accurately then don't display them at all. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 14:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What will it take for you to see reason, since obviously every source isn't enough for you. Would you like me to break down Bennett's games by season to prove the Bellamy games aren't counted?
1988: Bennett coached 22/22
'89: Bennett coached 23/23
'90: Bennett coached 25/25
'91: Bennett coached 22/22
'92: Bennett coached 24/24
'93: Bennett coached 26/26
'94: Bennett coached 24/24
'95: Bennett coached 24/24
'96: Bennett coached 23/23
'97: Bennett coached 20/20
'98: Bennett coached 28/28
'99: Bennett coached 25/25
2000: Bennett coached 29/29
'01: Bennett coached 29/29
'02: Bennett coached 26/28
'03: Bennett coached 25/25
'04: Bennett coached 26/26
'05: Bennett coached 26/26
'06: Bennett coached 28/28
'07: Bennett coached 25/25
'08: Bennett coached 26/26
That put's Bennett's total at the Broncos in his first 20 years at 526 out of 528. The Broncos played 28 games in 2002, but Bennett only coached 26 of them. If we included Bellamy's 2 in Bennett's totals then we would have 904 games, not 902.
Ivan Cleary's total at 408 comes from the same reasons as Bennett's. Brett Keeble, an official NRL reporter, stated in June 2022 when Ciraldo stood in for the game against the Knights that "Cleary stayed home in Sydney as he recovers from a second knee operation but was in regular communication with Ciraldo and the rest of the Penrith coaching staff before and during the game." (https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/06/15/in-demand-ciraldo-wont-let-coaching-speculation-cause-distraction/) This, combined with the fact that all sources, official or otherwise, count the games as having been coached by Cleary, not Ciraldo, makes it pretty clear that the NRL appears to have considered Cleary to have also "coached remotely", similar to Bennett (although, admittedly, the wording is slightly vaguer than Middleton's statement regarding Bennett).
We know from last year when Ricky Stuart missed a match that was not counted, plus the Bellamy games in 2002, that the NRL is perfectly capable of not counting matches in a coach's tally, and unlike Bennett whose controversy stems from the fact that he reached a milestone when the disputed games are included, Cleary's 404/408 is really nothing out of the ordinary so there would be no reason for the NRL to fudge the numbers.
Why you feel such a strong need to blatantly disregard all evidence contrary to your opinion is really beyond me. You were banned from editing for a week for ignoring the fact that Wikipedia is built on consensus and changing things that nobody agreed with, so do you really think it's smart to start being disruptive in the exact same manner on the exact same page immediately after being unblocked? PhinsUp23 (talk) 15:29, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Scrolling back up, Local Potentate at one point stating "My 2 cents agrees with Cody" and "I think it's more a lack of attention to detail, Middleton's annuals were often riddled with errors", plus Storm machine "I tend to agree with CC in this case re Bennett" in addition to "As CC intimated, the NRL is notorious for this kind of narrative manipulation with their own statistics and history", in some sense or another could be some little grain of agreement. It's in no way absolute to one side or another, so to say it's "all evidence contrary to your opinion" is just a bit off the mark. Time after time you keep saying original research as though I don't invest time into books and sites such as RLP. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 15:40, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They also said immediately after that that regardless of personal opinion, we should go with the plurality of sources, something that makes perfect sense to everyone else because of Wikipedia’s policy on original research. But if some kind of formal vote would appease you I think we should sort that out and let them speak for themselves
In the meantime, now that notes have been added to Bennett and Cleary’s totals, you should have no reason to keep overwriting the table. I think the notes are a perfect compromise, but the numbers shown in the table itself should be the official totals since all the sources support them. In my opinion, saying “Bennett has coached 902 games, though he was not physically present for 2 and is considered to have coached remotely” is more in line with the neutral point of view policy than saying “Bennett has coached 900 games, though the NRL considers him to have coached 2 additional games remotely for a total of 902” PhinsUp23 (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There you go. That's reason. 220.236.126.177 (talk) 00:49, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Melbourne's premiership and minor premiership entries[edit]

Hey everyone, a few weeks ago I added the titles stripped from the storm due to their salary cap breaches to the tables at the top of the page, albeit strikethroughed and with a note explaining how the titles were removed. My reasoning at the time was to avoid confusion for people unaware of the titles being removed who might look at the premiership table and wonder why 2 years are missing.

The dates were just removed, but since it was by a brand new IP I figured I'd put them back in the meantime and make a topic here to see what consensus is like. Does everyone agree that showing the years strikethroughed is a good solution to avoid having unexplained missing years in the table? Another alternative would be to not have them in the table, but keep the total asterisked with the footnotes I added explaining the stripped titles. PhinsUp23 (talk) 12:31, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me Local Potentate (talk) 21:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Former team names[edit]

Hey everyone, a few weeks ago I simplified "Gold Coast Giants/Seagulls/Chargers" to just Gold Coast Chargers in the match results tables, and to Gold Coast Seagulls in the wooden spoons table. Reasoning at the time was that it seems oddly inconsistent to shows 3 different names only for this team. I put Seagulls in the wooden spoons table since it was under that name that they "won" the spoons, and Chargers in the match results table as that was their most recent name.

The change was reverted last week, but since it was from an IP that hasn't been active for a year I figured I'd put the short names back in the meantime and make a topic here to see what everyone thinks. I don't see why the Chargers specifically would need three of their names in the table when we don't include alternate names like Eastern Suburbs for the Roosters or the Sydney Bulldogs. The Gold Coast Gladiators were also not in the original name, which is understandable since that name was only used very briefly, but then it becomes a case of where the line is drawn since the original Giants name was only used for 2 seasons.

On the same topic, should we rename the Western Reds in the table to the Perth Reds, since that was the name they went by in their last season (would be consistent with using Gold Coast Chargers), or would the most commonly known and used name be preferred? If the latter, you could also make a case that the old Gold Coast franchise should just go by Seagulls rather than Chargers, but I personally disagree with this option and think we should use the most recent names in the match results table, and then whichever name for the Gold Coast is preferred by everyone else for the wooden spoon table (most recent, or the one they used when they actually got the spoons). PhinsUp23 (talk) 07:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suppose I should provide the rationale. For using all three names was when they were being referred to in a record as their collective history from 1988-98. Individual instances, say a biggest win or loss against a team, use their identity at the time of said match. They had 3 different mascots along with 3 different and distinct jerseys. 220.236.119.43 (talk) 13:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Magic Round attendances[edit]

@Talsta this one's mainly going out to you since you added the extra attendance records recently, but input from anyone else would also be nice. Day 2 of this year's magic round had a high enough attendance to make the Top 5 table, so I've replaced the last entry with it, but I can see why some might not agree with this.

While Magic Round is a special round, it's still in the regular season, and I figured that label was more directed at finals double headers. And while it was 3 games, not a strict double-header, I feel like that's more of a technicality.

Still, if nobody else agrees with the change, feel free to undo it. PhinsUp23 (talk) 07:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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