Talk:List of genocides/Archive 11

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Archive 5 ← Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12

Requesting input on the addition of specific genocides in the Americas

The following seem to meet our criteria for inclusion in the list, but II want others input before I add any of them:

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Conquest of the Desert might not qualify per the discussion above and per WP:LISTV, especially these parts: Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources, especially in difficult or contentious topics and Ensure that the criteria for inclusion in the list are neutral and based on widely accepted definitions of terms. I see that we now explicitly list the UN definition of genocide, so we should be careful that sources list a) intent and b) destruction of peoples as such. Mere military conquests do not qualify, nor does mere ethnic cleansing of an area.
The other four examples look fine to me. KetchupSalt (talk) 14:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I find this discussion troubling that most likely non of you deciding to not call what occurred to the Native Americans not a Genocide. It is broadly recognized around the world less Caucasian Euro American scholars, as a Genocide which clearly shows bias. Is anyone making the decision a Naitve American? It clearly checks all the boxes while the discussion focuses around homicide it never seems to discuss the removal of culture and relocation. Wow.
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/162804 67.60.216.236 (talk) 07:58, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Girard, Philippe R. (2005). "Caribbean genocide: racial war in Haiti, 1802–4". Patterns of Prejudice. 39 (2): 138–161. doi:10.1080/00313220500106196. ISSN 0031-322X. S2CID 145204936. The Haitian genocide and its historical counterparts [...] The 1804 Haitian genocide
  2. ^ Moses, Dirk A.; Stone, Dan (2013). Colonialism and Genocide. Routledge. p. 63. ISBN 978-1-317-99753-5.
  3. ^ Forde, James (2020). The Early Haitian State and the Question of Political Legitimacy: American and British Representations of Haiti, 1804—1824. Springer. p. 40. ISBN 978-3-030-52608-5.
  4. ^ Andermann, Jens. Argentine Literature and the 'Conquest of the Desert', 1872-1896, Birkbeck, University of London. Quote: "It is this sudden acceleration, this abrupt change from the discourse of 'defensive warfare' and 'merciful civilization' to that of 'offensive warfare' and of genocide, which is perhaps the most distinctive mark of the literature of the Argentine frontier."
  5. ^ The Argentine Military and the Boundary Dispute With Chile, 1870-1902, George V. Rauch, p. 47, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1999
  6. ^ Carroll, Rory (13 January 2011). "Argentinian founding father recast as genocidal murderer". The Guardian.
  7. ^ "Pruebas irrefutables demuestran el genocidio de la población charrúa". LARED21 (in Spanish). 2009-08-30. Retrieved 2021-01-13.
  8. ^ Albarenga, Pablo (2017-11-10). "Where did Uruguay's indigenous population go?". EL PAÍS. Retrieved 2021-01-13.
  9. ^ Rospigliosi, Fernando (1996). Las Fuerzas Armadas y el 5 de abril: la percepción de la amenaza subversiva como una motivación golpista. Lima, Peru: Instituto de Estudios Peruanos. pp. 46–47.
  10. ^ Gaussens, Pierre (2020). "The forced serilization of indigenous population in Mexico in the 1990s". Canadian Journal of Bioethics. 3 (3): 180+. doi:10.7202/1073797ar. S2CID 234586692. a government plan, developed by the Peruvian army between 1989 and 1990s to deal with the Shining Path insurrection, later known as the 'Green Plan', whose (unpublished) text expresses in explicit terms a genocidal intention
  11. ^ Burt, Jo-Marie (September–October 1998). "Unsettled accounts: militarization and memory in postwar Peru". NACLA Report on the Americas. 32 (2). Taylor & Francis: 35–41. doi:10.1080/10714839.1998.11725657. the military's growing frustration over the limitations placed upon its counterinsurgency operations by democratic institutions, coupled with the growing inability of civilian politicians to deal with the spiraling economic crisis and the expansion of the Shining Path, prompted a group of military officers to devise a coup plan in the late 1980s. The plan called for the dissolution of Peru's civilian government, military control over the state, and total elimination of armed opposition groups. The plan, developed in a series of documents known as the "Plan Verde," outlined a strategy for carrying out a military coup in which the armed forces would govern for 15 to 20 years and radically restructure state-society relations along neoliberal lines.
  12. ^ Getgen, Jocelyn E. (Winter 2009). "Untold Truths: The Exclusion of Enforced Sterilizations from the Peruvian Truth Commission's Final Report". Third World Journal. 29 (1): 1–34. This Article argues that these systematic reproductive injustices constitute an act of genocide ... those individuals responsible for orchestrating enforced sterilizations against indigenous Quechua women arguably acted with the necessary mens rea to commit genocide since they knew or should have known that these coercive sterilizations would destroy, in whole or in part, the Quechua people. Highly probative evidence with which one could infer genocidal intent would include the Family Planning Program's specific targeting of poor indigenous women and the systematic nature of its quota system, articulated in the 1989 Plan for a Government of National Reconstruction, or 'Plan Verde.' ... The Plan continued by arguing ... the targeted areas possessed 'incorrigble characters' and lacked resources, all that was left was their 'total extermination.'
  13. ^ Carranza Ko, Ñusta (2020-09-04). "Making the Case for Genocide, the Forced Sterilization of Indigenous Peoples of Peru". Genocide Studies and Prevention. 14 (2): 90–103. doi:10.5038/1911-9933.14.2.1740. ISSN 1911-0359. a genocide did occur ... there was a case of genocide that involved the state against the reproductive rights of an ethnic minority, an institutionalized genocide via a state policy.
  14. ^ "La esterilización forzada en Perú fue el mayor genocidio desde su colonización". Centro Amazónico de Antropología y Aplicación Práctica (CAAAP) (in Spanish). 2016-05-31. Retrieved 2021-08-04.
  15. ^ Back, Michele; Zavala, Virginia (2018). Racialization and Language: Interdisciplinary Perspectives From Perú. Routledge. pp. 286–291. Retrieved 4 August 2021. At the end of the 1980s, a group of military elites secretly developed an analysis of Peruvian society called El cuaderno verde. This analysis established the policies that the following government would have to carry out in order to defeat Shining Path and rescue the Peruvian economy from the deep crisis in which it found itself. El cuaderno verde was passed onto the national press in 1993, after some of these policies were enacted by President Fujimori. ... It was a program that resulted in the forced sterilization of Quechua-speaking women belonging to rural Andean communities. This is an example of 'ethnic cleansing' justified by the state, which claimed that a properly controlled birth rate would improve the distribution of national resources and thus reduce poverty levels. ... The Peruvian state decided to control the bodies of 'culturally backward' women, since they were considered a source of poverty and the seeds of subversive groups
  16. ^ "Editorial - Genocidio Arana". La Nación (in Spanish). Retrieved 10 June 2020.
  17. ^ FG (5 April 2017). "La fiebre del caucho y el genocidio indígena del Putumayo, Colombia". Red Filosófica del Uruguay (in European Spanish). Retrieved 10 June 2020.

Cdjp1 (talk) 12:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 November 2023

Add “Genocide of Turks by Armenians” on the list. It should be from 1914 to 1915. With location “Ottoman Empire”. Lowest estimate: 64,000 and Highest estimate: 300,000

We all know about and can’t deny the devastating Armenian, Greek and Assyrian genocide, however I think it would be fair to include the retaliatory genocide as well.

The sources are below: https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB5.1A.GIF 77.77.216.98 (talk) 16:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Per our article, "This list only considers acts which are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides by the legal definition of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide." Not sure this fits. Also, provided source uses the term genocide multiple times but never in conjunction with the massacre of Turks, "Turkey's Armenians also massacred Moslems. Claims that this may have amounted to at least 1,000,000, or even 1,500,000 Moslem dead (table 5.1A, lines 106b and 106e) however, have no substantiation beyond former Young Turks or their officials. Had the Armenians indeed massacred even half this number, the Young Turks surely would have given it wide publicity, photographs and all. They had no better way to counter sympathy for the Armenians they were killing. In any case foreign newsmen and diplomats in the country surely would have noted the massacres. Moreover, the Turkish statistician Ahmed Emin, who was hardly sympathetic to the Armenians, gave (table 5.1A, lines 105 and 106f) an upper limit of 40,000 Moslem Turks killed by Armenians (including possibly by Armenian-Russian troops) in the area occupied by Russian forces after the Russian Revolution in 1917, and at least 128,000 for the 1914-1915 period.7 Given the other estimates and the overall populations involved, I estimate that from 128,000 to 600,000 Moslem Turks and Kurds were killed. Since this was done by Armenian irregulars serving with Russian forces, I split responsibility for these deaths in Turkey between the Russians and Armenians, and show in Table 5.1A (line 255) the Armenian half--probably 75,000 murdered. " Cannolis (talk) 19:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Actually in the list provided in the second source it specifically states it to be a genocide and gives the same figure of 64,000-300,000. I see that all sorts of ethnic cleansing campaigns were included in the list. I believe that targeting and mass murdering a specific group should constitute as genocide. Which was the case with Turks although I admit it was on a smaller scale than Armenians. But i think recording it would be fair nevertheless. Maybe other can gove their opinions on the matter as well. 77.77.216.98 (talk) 23:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Although I think it should be called genocide of Muslims Turks and Kurds, as both ethnicities were affected. 77.77.216.98 (talk) 23:45, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Genocide against Bosniaks and Croats by the Chetniks

Change the higher estimate into “138,000”

The figure that most Bosniaks use is 106,000 (only for killed Bosniaks) which is different from the Yugoslav government statistics. Some numbers go as high as 150,000 but I couldn’t find relevant sources for it aside from claims. When it come to Croats the highest estimate I found was 32,000 maybe someone knows another one. and adding 106,000 and 32,000 I reached the figure of 138,000.

Sources: https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=873357 https://hrcak.srce.hr/103223?lang=en 77.77.216.98 (talk) 07:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Missing

Indian genocides by Mughals and the European invaders is missing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6080:8E40:45:3D78:2D98:BA97:E052 (talk) 02:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Iraqi Turkmen genocide

Iraqi Turkmen genocide

Location: Iraq Period From: 2014 Period To: 2017 Lowest Estimate: 3,500 Highest Estimate: 8,400

Sources:

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/2/13/iraqs-turkmen-mobilise-for-a-post-isil-future

https://21yyte.org/tr/merkezler/bolgesel-arastirma-merkezleri/orta-dogu-ve-afrika-arastirmalari-merkezi/isidin-irakta-turkmen-cografyasindaki-katliamlari https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Turkmen_genocide 77.78.230.98 (talk) 12:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

That first link does not use the word "genocide". Do you have more sources calling this a genocide? Bondegezou (talk) 13:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Lots of sources Ive seen are classifying this as a genocie. Here you go some of then (not all are in English):
https://www.ft.dk/samling/20141/almdel/uru/bilag/103/1494175.pdf
https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/200720174-amp
https://www.aa.com.tr/ar/الدول-العربية/البرلمان-العراقي-يعتبر-جرائم-داعش-بحق-التركمان-إبادة-جماعية/865821 77.77.216.98 (talk) 20:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 Done Parham wiki (talk) 13:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Sikh Genocide

The 1984 Sikh Genocide in India needs to be added. There is plenty of verifiable support that this was a genocide (see the wiki page here) for reference. The title of that page is also incorrectly labeled "riots" when it was government incited and directed, and there was active government involvement as well (local police either actively participating or intentionally refraining from stopping any violence). 2600:1700:7CC0:FEC0:8488:78A9:C978:6056 (talk) 12:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The process of exterminating Indigenous peoples in the Americas perhaps deserves an entry of its own, though some constituent parts do appear. The list of North American massacres of Indigenous peoples has its own page with a seemingly endless list of incidents, and when taken together clearly constitutes a singular genocidal effort rather than individual anomalies within the process of colonization.

The Uyghur Genocide is listed, in spite of many of the claims about said events -- forced reeducation, forced sterilization, etc. -- were and are practiced on Indigenous peoples on these continents, along with forced removal of lands, which is plainly the definition of ethnic cleansing, and is even accepted as such in the Wikipedia article on "Ethnic Cleansing."

Furthermore, the Holodomor even makes an appearance, even though its status as a genocide is so debatable that the note on its very inclusion in this list mentions that fact. If an alleged genocide can be included in this list with a footnote, then I find it particularly jarring that these events, which are confirmable genocidal simply by looking at the words of those who perpetrated them ("our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada" as said Duncan Campbell Scott, architect of Canada's residential school system, or how about George Washington's claim that "the gradual extension of our Settlements will as certainly cause the Savage as the Wolf to retire; both being beasts of prey tho' they differ in shape" -- there are countless admissions such as these).

If not as one singular item in the list, then the list may at the very least seek to add individual events such as The Trail of Tears, the Residential School System in Canada/Indian Boarding School system in America, the mass sterilization campaigns against Indigenous peoples in places such as Peru and the United States, the ongoing extermination of Amazonian tribes in the pursuit of lumber and likewise events in Paraguay, etc. etc. etc. Jackwc123 (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry that was an accident Jackwc123 (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Genocide against Bosniaks and Croats by Chetniks in WW2

Change the higher estimate into “138,000” The figure that most Bosniaks use is 106,000 (only for killed Bosniaks) which is different from the Yugoslav government statistics. Some numbers go as high as 150,000 but I couldn’t find relevant sources for it aside from claims. When it come to Croats the highest estimate I found was 32,000 maybe someone knows another one. and adding 106,000 and 32,000 I reached the figure of 138,000. Sources: https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=873357 https://hrcak.srce.hr/103223?lang=en 80.80.43.235 (talk) 00:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 December 2023

Please add an entry on the Sabra and Shatila Massacre (I suggested it previously but only 1 user responded).

Location: Beirut, Lebanon. Date: 1982. Lowest estimated: 460. Highest estimated: 3,500.

Sources:

United Nations resolution condemning it as a genocide

Report of the MacBride Commission in February 1983 (not accessible online that I can find, but discussed in academic works and on the massacre's Wikipedia article)

An official report to the UNHRC by the Palestinian Return Centre

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, a description which academic Bayan al-Hout concurred with (judgement reported here)

Nakba Memoricide: Genocide Studies and the Zionist/Israeli Genocide of Palestine, article by genocide scholars Damien Short and Haifa Rashed

Sabra and Shatila: memories of a massacre in the Morning Star (which I'm aware probably isn't RS for what constitutes genocide, but it seems to be applying the UN definition in the article)

Article by Solidarity

5.61.122.219 (talk) 11:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2023

Please add the russian invasion of Ukraine and the 7th of October hamas attack on Israel. Iron armour (talk) 15:02, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 16:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. Both of the events I listed fit this description. Iron armour (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
The first is currently under discussion in #Genocide in Ukraine, above.  —Michael Z. 19:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Please include the October 7th attack

Please include the 7th of October attack as a genocide committed by the hamas. It was a massacre of innocent civilians. They were killed using horrendous methods and only due to their belonging to the Jewish nation. The hamas has long created antisemitic propaganda aimed at Gazans to cause them to hate Jews, and also encourage killing them. The attack of October 7th was a planned attack with the goal of exterminating a nation, and the hamas has made their genocidal intentions very clear, and even published videos of their crimes. Therefore it should be listed as a genocide. -Iron armour (talk) 17:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  •  Not done: this is a diatribe made without sources in a CTopics (Arab-Israel) area.  // Timothy :: talk  19:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Genocide in Ukraine

@Cdjp1, re. your revert,[1] what issues are present?  —Michael Z. 02:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

See the discussion of Gaza above, many of the same concerns are present in regards to recency, academic consensus, etc. with the addition of the genocidal acts of Russia against Ukraine. If consensus among editors can be agree to add both Palestine and Ukraine there's no problem, but while the contentions exist there is a lack of consensus to add to the list. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Neither should be dependent on the other, as they are different things. And sorry, please list specific issues you have with this addition. I take it you object because 1) this event is too recent, and 2) you claim there is no academic consensus that the Genocide Convention is being violated by Russia. Does that sum it up?  —Michael Z. 19:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
While not dependent on each other, the issues that have been highlighted under Gaza are also, from what I can see for the sources we have on Ukraine, also present.
1) this is not inherently an issue, but has bearing on the ability to find a consensus amongst experts without international prosecution on the crime of genocide.
2) From what sources we have present, from experts, while there are many willing to view it and call it a genocide (though to varying degrees), they do not represent a broad consensus across experts in any particular discipline, or across disciplines. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Based on what? Which experts say there is no genocide in Ukraine?  —Michael Z. 21:10, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
@Cdjp1, are you still participating in the discussion? There is a consensus when many sources say there is a genocide, many say there could be a genocide, and very few or none at all says it is not.  —Michael Z. 19:19, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
My statements still stand, the same reputable sources, similar reputable sources, and a similar small amount of dissident opinions from non-experts are available in the case of Palestine. And as consensus there finds that it remains allegations, and thus not suitable for this list, should therefore be equally applied to the case of other allegations of genocide, in this instance Ukraine. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:02, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
That’s not true. New Lines published a 57-page detailed report by 30-plus legal and genocide experts, and a 47-page followup 10 months later. There is nothing like this on Gaza.
Is there any dissident opinion on Ukraine at all? I saw one article shortly after the start of the invasion, but the same academic stated a few month later he had changed his mind.
It is not meaningful to say “it remains allegations.” All genocides are alleged except for the handful of court convictions. Obviously this list, and any list that predates the 1948 Genocide Convention, is broader than that set and relies on expert and academic opinions.  —Michael Z. 00:33, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
A comparison with another example proves nothing because these examples/cases are very different. The criterion for inclusion to the list is reasonable and a matter of consensus. It says: "as it is defined by the UN Convention on Genocide". OK. Main issue here is the intent "to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group". I think we can include all cases when such intent has been officially declared (for example, by the leaders of the country-aggressor), performed in practice, described as such in multiple RS, and we have big pages about it. This is such a case. My very best wishes (talk) 00:49, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Reliable sources call the acts of the russian army in Ukraine as genocide. The russian regime has also made its genocidal intentions clear by repeatedly claiming that Ukrainians and russians are “adin narod” and so on. Iron armour (talk) 20:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
  • I do not agree with including this into the list. Dropping "allegations" from the title of Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine was proposed unsuccessfully twice already. How could we then include this article here as if it was just another case of an unequivocal genocide when it is clear it is not? At most I'd support its inclusion if it is specified that it is not a universal posture. Frankly, the Holodomor should also be marked as a controversial case, right now it is listed as just another case. Maybe we could make a new section for atrocities for which debates regarding whether they were/are genocide exist, we could include the Palestinian case there too. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Well according to reports by Genocide Watch, it is an unequivocally ongoing genocide [2], just as Holodomor was [3]. In some other cases, this maybe just as clear or less clear according to their reports. My very best wishes (talk) 00:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
    And yet the similar statements on other genocides have been determined by wiki consensus as not being enough to include those genocides in the list, so my question is why is it enough for this case, but not others? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:25, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
This is not a valid argument because all [alleged] genocides are different. One would need to start an RfC about including this one, although I do not suggest it now. As of note, I think that a relevant RfC here was incorrectly closed because one of the sides provided many strong supporting sources, and another side did not. My very best wishes (talk) 00:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
There is no consensus in Wikipedia that there is a genocide of Ukrainians taking place right now, otherwise the article wouldn't have "allegations" in the title. Therefore, we shouldn't treat it as such. I also agree with Cdjp1 that if we aren't including similar cases, we shouldn't include this one either. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
The russian regime has made their genocidal intentions clear with the their claims about “adin narod”. They kidnapped Ukrainian children which also classifies as genocide. -Iron armour (talk) 09:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
This question requires consensus here. There is no “consensus in Wikipedia,” not based on your inference from another article title, and especially not from one where the most relevant recent RM literally ended with “no censensus.”  —Michael Z. 15:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, sure. Saying that, same set of RS as here is useful for this discussion, and in my view, it fully justifies the inclusion to this list. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
If the article is titled "Allegations of genocide [...]", we cannot include it in a list of genocides. My inference is common sense. We cannot play around with an article's title and scope. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:36, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
It’s a list of events, not articles. Are you proposing we common-sense remove all articles that don’t have “genocide” in their title? After all, it’s not a list of massacres (Massacres of Hutus during the First Congo War) and campaigns (Anfal campaign). In fact the vast majority of this list is alleged genocides and not proven in court; the majority will never be proven in court and always remain allegations since the Convention on Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide is not retroactive.
There isn’t some magic in the title term “allegations” that makes this absolutely not a genocide. On the contrary, in the real world there are only RS saying it is, and none saying that it isn’t. In the Wiki world, there was no consensus about a title.  —Michael Z. 14:31, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Not all listed articles may have "genocide" in their titles, but if an article has "allegations of genocide" in its title, it is clear the event the article covers is not unequivocally considered a genocide in the whole of Wikipedia indeed, we couldn't have the article say it is an alleged genocide and another article say it is uncontroversially a genocide and another say it is not, that's the point of having a central article for the topic. I am not going into legal scopes, I am talking specifically about how we treat the topics in Wikipedia, it might be just as appropriate to refer to what is happening in Ukraine as a genocide as any other listed event here, but the latter ones are not specifically said to be alleged in the titles of their own articles.
May I add I do not favor completely excluding the topic from this list but its inclusion on the same way as other events uniformly and uncontroversially referred to as genocides in Wikipedia. We could create a separate section or include it and other similar cases in italics or with different background colors. Something that notes the situation is different, because it is in Wikipedia. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 16:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Please hold a broader RFC to establish that Wikipedia universally accepts or rejects some fact. The title there and inclusion here are two different topics with two different sets of criteria and two different consensuses. Your insistence that this must depend on that, while this mustn’t have its own consensus, and that certainly can’t depend on this, appears to be contrary to principles of consensus. Your insistence that a “massacre” is necessarily a genocide but “allegations of genocide” can’t be genocide is a personal interpretation and a wrong one.
In fact this list has many articles that say there is no consensus on genocide, and some that don’t even mention the term.
It is clearly demonstrated that Russia’s crimes in Ukraine are “acts which are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides,” uncontroversially and literally meeting the list criteria as stated on the page.  —Michael Z. 16:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
I will not hold a RfC to establish that there should be consistency between articles in Wikipedia. Whatever is on a topic's main article affects how we treat the topic in other articles. The title there and inclusion here are heavily interrelated given the scopes of the article and list. I haven't and will not comment on other listed events here, be they titled massacre or camapign or whatever, I am focusing on the Ukraine article. And I believe Wikipedia is not the place to refer to users' own interpretations as wrong ones, or possibly you have a degree in international law and have a better judgement than me.
In fact this list has many articles that say there is no consensus on genocide, and some that don’t even mention the term. this means there might be other inappropriate entries in the list, which doesn't affect the inclusion or exclusion of this particular entry (WP:OTHERSTUFF). Also, the list states it excludes mass killings which were not unequivocally defined as genocide, a topic the article of which contains "allegations" in the title is in my view not an unequivocal genocide in the context of the website the article is in (Wikipedia). Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:31, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
You’re hanging this hat on a single word in the title, and not even on the content of the article, much less on the actual scholarship. Applying this logic means that all “massacres” and “actions” &c. would be removed.
The relevant main article is all about the question of genocide and has extensive evidence of recognition in significant scholarship, while many other entries lack anything resembling this. But even this comparison is not an assessment of the list criteria vis-à-vis actual scholarship, only against existing writing in other volunteer-created Wikipedia articles, which is not how membership should be judged.
Your argument looks like OTHERSTUFF doesn’t matter, but OTHERTITLES is authoritative. —Michael Z. 20:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
“Wikipedia is not the place to refer to users' own interpretations as wrong ones” – please don’t take it personally that my logic disagrees with your logic and I say so plainly. In my book, “allegations of genocide” are a stronger candidate for inclusion in a list of genocides than “massacre,” if we were to go by article titles alone.  —Michael Z. 20:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
In the two past RMs in the article, specially the first one, a change in the article's scope was implicitly discussed, because that is what a rename would imply. This is at least how I perceived it. The contents of the article themselves are different to that of other unequivocal (based on the title) genocides in Wikipedia, like the Armenian genocide. We can compare the lead of both, practically the whole lead of the Ukraine article focuses on the genocide allegations themselves rather than on the crimes that provoked the allegations (War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine does this instead). Therefore, I am not uniquely focusing on a single word on the title, but on its whole scope as what is written in the article is about the allegations, this single word defines the article's scope.
My logic is that since the whole article, both in title and contents, talk about an alleged genocide, addressing first and foremost the allegations themselves, the article is different from any other entry in this list and thus cannot be included simply as another one on it, none of the articles there as far as I know are about genocide allegations but about genocidal crimes, the Ukraine article is about the former and not the latter in its current form and for it to be about the latter a change in its contents would be necessary which could have come following a rename which so far has been unsuccessful.
I have no problem with having disagreeing opinions with you, this is natural, it was the way you worded this that elicited that comment from mine you've quoted in your last reply.
As this is becoming a back-and-forth without much aim I invite you to seek a middle-ground solution possibly in the forms I've mentioned above. Or you can just restore the version if you wish as I will not revert you. I would have initially thought that by this point more than two people would be involved in the discussion. I don't think serious matters such as this one regarding genocide should be decided by one or two individuals. Possibly a RfC is worth conducting. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:26, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Okay, I see your point about scope, but I don’t think this is directly relevant. Whether we link to that article, or to others about crimes, or rename it or write a new one, this is a list of crimes considered genocide, not a list of articles.
Anyway, since the edit’s been reverted, I would also prefer a discussion with more participants to show consensus one way or the other. Does it make sense to RFC?  —Michael Z. 22:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I believe so. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 23:10, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
I am afraid that such RfC (or RfC about many other items currently included to this list) would be a waste of time with an inconclusive result. I would simply suggest that any [alleged] genocides currently included to Category:Genocides would be allowable for inclusion to this or other similar lists, e.g. Genocides in history. That could be a more general question for the RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 02:32, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balangiga_massacre

Not on the list? 178.84.36.81 (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any sources describing this as genocide? Bondegezou (talk) 11:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 January 2024

Need no add current Genocide to list Palestinian (Gaza) Genocide 2023-Present 2600:1700:589D:E810:D0C5:D18:5363:C820 (talk) 16:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 17:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 January 2024

Please add the following entry to the table:

Event Location Period Estimated killings Proportion of group killed
From To Lowest Highest
Sabra and Shatila massacre[n 1] Beirut, Lebanon 1982 1982 460[12] 3,500[13] Unknown due to a lack of accurate figures.

5.61.122.219 (talk) 14:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  1. ^ Robert Fisk, Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War, Oxford University Press 2001 pp. 382–383.
  2. ^ William B. Quandt, Peace Process: American Diplomacy and the Arab-Israeli Conflict Since 1967, University of California Press p. 266
  3. ^ Yossi Alpher, Periphery: Israel’s Search for Middle East Allies, Rowman & Littlefield, 2015 p. 48
  4. ^ Nathan Gonzalez, The Sunni-Shia Conflict: Understanding Sectarian Violence in the Middle East, Nortia Media Ltd, 2013 p. 113.
  5. ^ U.N. General Assembly, Resolution 37/123, adopted between 16 and 20 December 1982. Archived 29 April 2012 at the Wayback Machine Retrieved 4 January 2010.
  6. ^ William Schabas (2000). Genocide in International Law. University Press, Cambridge. p. 235. ISBN 0521782627.
  7. ^ Eyad Abu Shakra (2 May 2020). "The Sabra and Shatila massacre". Arab News.
  8. ^ Short, Damien; Rashed, Haifa; Docker, John. "Nakba Memoricide: Genocide Studies and the Zionist/Israeli Genocide of Palestine". Journal of Holy Land and Palestine Studies. 13: 1–23.
  9. ^ Sabra and Shatila: A genocide for which the criminal has not been held accountable (PDF) (Report). Palestinian Return Centre. 21 August 2021.
  10. ^ "Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission: Israel Guilty of Genocide". Scoop. 27 November 2013.
  11. ^ Sweeney, Steve (16 September 2021). "Sabra and Shatila: memories of a massacre". The Morning Star.
  12. ^ Schiff, Ze'ev; Ya'ari, Ehud (1985). Israel's Lebanon War. Simon and Schuster. p. 282. ISBN 978-0-671-60216-1.
  13. ^ "Sabra and Shatila massacre: What happened in Lebanon in 1982?". Al Jazeera. 16 September 2022.

5.61.122.219 (talk) 14:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Additions to the list need to be recognised in significant scholarship as genocides by the legal definition of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Please provide sources demonstrating as such. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 22:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Are the above citations not sufficient? They include genocide scholars, international law experts and the UN itself, and all of them apply the UN definition. 5.61.122.219 (talk) 14:52, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 January 2024

The genocide of Tamil people in Sri Lanka is now accepted by the UN. From 1983 to 2004, 54,053 Tamil civilians were killed during the war and another 25,266 were made to disappeared but never found again. Another almost 70,000 Tamil civilians were killed in the last five months of the campaign. Facttk (talk) 14:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:19, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Consider adding the Massacres/Genocide of Albanians in Balkan Wars

Even though this event isn't universally called a genocide,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] a significant portion of scholarship views the atrocities as systematic, and some explicitly refer to it as "extermination" which would imply that the atrocities were part of a genocidal campaign.[8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18] View this as an addition that would be similar to the Massacres of Hutus during the First Congo War. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 21:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

For context, a discussion on this topic has already been raised here ([4]). Making inferences from multiple sources that they themselves do not explicitly state violates WP:OR. In addition, some of the sources do not meet WP:RS due to age, POV pushing and a lack of peer review. For a significant topic like this, you need to find multiple sources that meet RS such as peer review papers that specifically analyses this event. As mentioned in the previous talk page discussion, it is currently extremely difficult to find as this is an under-researched area. I have not been able to find any myself either. ElderZamzam (talk) 03:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I wouldn't necessarily consider using sources citing "systematic extermination" or systematic atrocities as constituting WP:OR since they would objectively fall under the definition of genocide as defined by the UN. Some of the old sources, like (as you may be referring to) Albania's Golgotha and the Carnegie Commission's report are supported by secondary sources. Since there are some sources citing genocide directly, like sources 1-7 per my original suggestion (as well as Mark Levene's characterization of the Luma massacre), I think this implication is common enough to justify inclusion in this article, as it was to include the "Genocide question" section on the article in question. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 03:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@Yung Doohickey: looking at the sources provided in the comment here, some of these seem like they'd be better for use in the article. A note in the first column, ala how the other entries have, will allow you to expand on what Massacres of Albanians in Balkan Wars was, allowing you to add the relevant citations. Ones from respected academics which explicitly use the word "genocide" or "genocidal" in the description of events will be the best to have. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:08, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Tatum, Dale C. (2010). Genocide at the Dawn of the Twenty-First Century: Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Darfur. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 113. ISBN 978-0-230-62189-3. Retrieved 3 January 2020. In October 1912, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, and Greece launched an attack to dismember the decaying Ottoman Empire. This war was notable for its brutality. Acts of genocide and mayhem were committed during the war. Civilians were massacred and people's lips and noses were severed. Thus, the relationship between Serbs and Kosovar Albanians began to spiral downward. From this battle, the Serbs gained control of Kosovo, their 'mythic land' of origin.
  2. ^ Freundlich, Leo (1 January 1998). "Albania's Golgotha: indictments of the exterminators of the Albanian people". Juka Pub. Co. Retrieved 6 September 2016 – via Google Books. These figures give an idea as to the extent of the Albanian genocide which was achieved with various means inconceivable in twentieth century Europe.
  3. ^ Qirezi, Arben (2017). "Settling the self-determination dispute in Kosovo". In Mehmeti, Leandrit I.; Radeljić, Branislav (eds.). Kosovo and Serbia: Contested Options and Shared Consequences. University of Pittsburgh Press. ISBN 9780822981572. In 1912 and in 1913, Serbia conquered Kosovo through genocide and forced expulsion, and in 1999, it lost it because it had reverted to the same old policy of mass murder and expulsion of Kosovo Albanians.
  4. ^ Ostreni, Gëzim (2018). The White Book: Genocide and Ethnic Cleaning of the Albanians from the Serbian Kingdom, from the SCS Jugoslavia, the Kingdom Jugoslavija, from SFR Jugoslavia and the Republic of Macedonia : 1912-2000. Institute for Spiritual and Cultural Heritage of the Albanians--Skopje. ISBN 9786084653714.
  5. ^ Staletović, Branimir. "Elections in Macedonia: Intensification of Nationalist and Authoritarian Tendencies" (PDF). Contemporary Southeastern Europe. 4 (1): 8. Alongside the anti-Soros campaign, we have witnessed the introduction of the Albanian declaration in the post-election context. The joint declaration signed by DUI, BESA and the Movement for Reform - Democratic Party of Albanians included, among others, full compliance with the Ohrid Framework Agreement (OFA), equal language rights, economic equality and a resolution on the genocide of Albanians in Macedonia in the period 1912-1956.
  6. ^ Csaplár-Degovics, Krisztián. Die Internationale Kontrollkommission Albaniens und die albanischen Machtzentren (1913–1914): Beitrag zur Geschichte der Staatsbildung Albaniens (PDF) (in German). p. 41. One of the unexpected experiences of the Balkan Wars 1912-1913 was that the members of the Balkan League committed genocides and other kinds of mass violence against other Nationalities and the Muslim population of the peninsula. Among other things the Albanian state-building project of the Great Powers aimed to prevent further genocide and other acts of violence against the Albanian population and other refugees from Macedonia and to put an end to the anarchy of the country.
  7. ^ That was Yugoslavia. Ost-Dienst. 1991. p. 53. Retrieved 22 April 2020.
  8. ^ United States Department of State (1943). Papers Relating to the Foreign Relations of the United States. U.S. Government Printing Office. p. 115. Retrieved 2 January 2020.
  9. ^ Levene, Mark (2013). Devastation: Volume I: The European Rimlands 1912-1938. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0199683031.
  10. ^ Novakovic, Kosta. "Colonisation and Serbianisation of Kosova". The Institute of History, Prishtina. Archived from the original on December 25, 2013.
  11. ^ Zhitia, Skender (2021). "The Anti-Albanian Policy of the Serbian State, Programs and Methods (XIX-XX)". Journal of History & Future.
  12. ^ That was Yugoslavia. Ost-Dienst. 1991. p. 53. Retrieved 22 April 2020.
  13. ^ Rifati, Fitim. Kryengritjet shqiptare në Kosovë si alternativë çlirimi nga sundimi serbo-malazez (1913-1914) (PDF). Journal of Balkan Studies. p. 84. According to Serbian Social Democrat politician Kosta Novakovic, from October 1912 to the end of 1913, the Serbo-Montenegrin regime exterminated more than 120,000 Albanians of all ages, and forcibly expelled more than 50,000 Albanians to the Ottoman Empire and Albania.
  14. ^ "Servian Army Left a Trail of Blood; Thousands of Men, Women, and Children Massacred in March to Sea, Say Hungarian Reports" (PDF). Retrieved 6 September 2016.
  15. ^ Booth, Ken (2012). The Kosovo Tragedy: The Human Rights Dimensions. Routledge. p. 106. ISBN 978-1-136-33476-4. Retrieved 8 April 2020.
  16. ^ Noel Malcolm (1998). Kosovo: A Short History. London: papermac. p. 253. ISBN 9780330412247.
  17. ^ Elsie, Robert. "1913 Frankfurter Zeitung: The Balkan War". albanianhistory.net.
  18. ^ International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars; Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Division of Intercourse and Education (1 January 1914). "Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan War". Washington, D.C. : The Endowment. Retrieved 6 September 2016 – via Internet Archive.

Albigensian Crusade

@Cdjp1, @Carlotm The Albigensian Crusade can't be listed as a genocide because the Cathars were not killed because of their race (a notion that didn't exist yet) but because of their faith.
Best Regards,
Belysarius (talk) 11:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group Parham wiki (talk) 11:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
Not sure why I'm tagged specifically for this, as to my recollection I've never added the Albigensian Crusade specifically to the list. If we were to remove all genocides that occurred before the modern invention of race, it means nothing prior to the 18th/19th century would be on here, contrary to academics and experts on the matter. And per the UN definition for genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, "

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

" so your counter as to why the Albigensian Crusade should not be included here falls when held against this. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
I tagged you because you are the two main contributors to this article and therefore the two most likely to respond to me. I thank you for your response.
The crusade aimed to convert the Cathars who had recently abandoned Roman Christianity and not to destroy the Albigensian people or Occitan culture.
Unfortunately if you were to add all religious massacres to this list, it would be infinite and would include for example massacres committed by the Cathars against Catholic civilians in Cathar-held towns.
Furthermore, the Albigensian crusade is very different from a massacre committed by a strong government against a minority since it is a war between feudal lords and the Albigensian lords had armies, forts and were able to defend themselves and attempt offensives. Belysarius (talk) 09:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
To break this down:
  1. We rely on what reputable sources say on a matter, if it is the opinion of the relevant experts in the matter that the Albigensian Crusade counts as a genocide against the Cathars, then it is what should be expressed in the relevant wiki articles.
  2. On Conversion, this may be an argument for it not being a genocide, as conversions forced or otherwise are not explicitly stated in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, though it is not a strong argument due to the following:
    1. It can be argued that forced conversions, especially of children of the group would fall under the spirit of 'e', that is "(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group".
    2. If we step away from the legal definition adopted by the UN (which is possible as shown by the wealth of academic research around genocide), we can find that forced conversions are considered at least part of cultural genocide, and in some cases genocide. You can even find some discussion of forced conversion as a tool of genocide under the Ottoman Empire in this wiki article. For a couple of examples of the academic literature you can see Mallavarapu, 2017 and Kurt, 2016.
    3. As religious groups are identified specifically in the Convention, destroying a religious, even if only through conversion, is still the destruction of that religious group.
    4. Finally this is all operating under the assumption that all the Albigensian Crusade entailed was in fact just conversions, which we know it was not, and in fact in most cases was the mass killing of both actual and suspected Cathars.
  3. You seem to try to separate the Albigensians as being a different form of categorisation than the Cathars, which is wrong, as it's use in the name "Albigensian Crusade" and it's use as an accusation of a heretical movement in Rome's eyes is specific to those they viewed as Cathars. Britannica has a quick read on this detailing why they were called Albigensians by Rome.
  4. If I were to have my say on the matter, yes, we would include a lot more cases of mass killings in this list, but it is not up to us to make the decision, only to report on what the reputable sources say.
  5. You seem to argue that a genocide can not be a genocide if the two parties involved are 'separate' polities at war, is this the case? If it is, then a few examples this criteria would see removed from this list would be: the Iraqi Turkmen genocide, the Genocide of Yazidis by the Islamic State, the German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war, the Nazi crimes against the Polish nation, mass sections of the Holocaust and the Romani Holocaust, and basically all genocides against indigenous peoples during the 17th-19th centuries. This sort of view is at odds with not just the Convention's definition and understanding of the crime of genocide, but also against multiple other definitions and analyses through genocide research.
-- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
@user:Belysarius Consider what CDjP1 posted as coming from my mind completely. Cheers.Carlotm (talk) 21:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
I also agree with Cdjp1. In particular, (1): we rely on what reliable sources say. We should not be trying to argue this matter based on our interpretation of the criteria. We should look to reliable sources to do the interpreting. Bondegezou (talk) 11:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
The notion of "Cathars" also did not actually exist at the time of the Albigensian Crusade, and this idea of a heterodox sect of gnostic-inspired dualistic Christians in Medieval France has largely been abandoned by current historians.
The term "Cathar" literally doesn't appear once in a single primary source that actually dates from the time, and the document upon which later notions of Catharism were based is widely regarded to be a forgery. Since the group that this article asserts to have been the target of the Albigensian Crusade didn't actually have any coherent existence, its inclusion on this list is absurd.
I know that this is technically OR until I provide sources, but I'm currently on my phone and will provide them later, just leaving this comment now so I don't forget. Djehuty98 (talk) 17:58, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
@Djehuty98: Leglu, Rist, and Taylor is the book you want, which points out how the existence of Catharism, was at the least overblown by those seeking a heresy. Though, this does not change the materials which we cite for it's inclusion in the list. Cdjp1 (talk) 00:48, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Genocide against Bosniaks and Croats by Chetniks in WW2

Change the higher estimate into “138,000” The figure that most Bosniaks use is 106,000 (only for killed Bosniaks) which is different from the Yugoslav government statistics. Some numbers go as high as 150,000 but I couldn’t find relevant sources for it aside from claims. When it come to Croats the highest estimate I found was 32,000 maybe someone knows another one. and adding 106,000 and 32,000 I reached the figure of 138,000. Sources: https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=873357https://hrcak.srce.hr/103223?lang=en 80.80.42.30 (talk) 13:57, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Slave trade

Clearly a case of genocide, it is estimated that the slave trade promoted by European nations and that lasted for 300 years is to blame for the death of at least 12 million Africans 176.83.233.251 (talk) 22:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source for this. KetchupSalt (talk) 23:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Why is the Holodomor here but not the Palestinian genocide accusation?

WP:ECR ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

In both cases their characterization as genocides is questioned but only one is included here. What's the reason for this inconsistency? 181.98.62.149 (talk) 11:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Relevant articles:

181.98.62.149 (talk) 11:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The Holodomor is largely accepted by historians to be a genocide. What's happening in Palestine doesn’t have as much consensus. — Czello (music) 11:46, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
You seem to know so much about history Czello, always answering in so many different topics so quickly... not to mention being able to answer with more confidence than chatGPT. Are you really that knowledgeable that you can answer so fast without rereading or are you just pushing your POV in different articles181.98.62.149 (talk) 11:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
This is an odd response for a fast reply; you're welcome, by the way. However to reiterate we go by what sources say. — Czello (music) 13:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
What you say the sources say and what the sources on this articles and in Holodomor genocide question actually say don't match. But have you honestly checked them and you somehow still think that they match what you claim or are you just claiming they do because that's your POV and you ignore the mismatch? 181.98.62.149 (talk) 21:09, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
The majority of historians and genocide scholars do not recognise the Holodomor to be a genocide, though there is a genuine debate. Endwise (talk) 12:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Debate still exists but it has far more recognition than what is happening in Palestine. — Czello (music) 13:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Someone (BilledMammal based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles) reverted my comment because ips can't comment on articles related to the Palestine genocide. I readded the topic because this article is not related to Israel. I'm saying the Holodomor doesn't belong on this list. 181.98.62.149 (talk) 12:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) I removed under both WP:ARBPIA and WP:GS/RUSUKR, although the second is less clear and I won't re-remove. BilledMammal (talk) 12:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)


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