Talk:Neocatechumenal Way/Archive 3
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Language/irrelevant material
This article is currently in a sort of pidgin English, and seems to go off on a tangent in quite a few places. I've edited the article up to the Leadership section, cutting out the filler and redacting what's left with material from the statute. I will carry on with some more when I get a chance.
SG
Limiting the Recent developments section
I was wondering if anyone think it would be appropriate to limit this section to a year, perhaps a year and a half. Any thoughts?
Also this would not include the the official statements from the vatican, those are relatively few compared to the other. Ncwfl 22:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the recent developments section should be left the way it is for now. Perhaps changing it or making it briefer later on would suffice. But I feel it is important to inform readers about recent developments and where they were quoted from (to avoid the classic Modwenna comment about bermuda triangles and such...) Jdegi —Preceding comment was added at 17:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I have re-worded, re-structured and corrected (due to spelling mistakes etc) the recently added paragraph in the criticism section. Jdegi 14:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)Jdegi
Actually, I have decided to remove the new paragraph altogether, for it has NOTHING to do with criticism, rather it's a development and Cardinal Arinze did not criticise the Neocatechumenal way in any way...
Jdegi 14:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)Jdegi
I have re-worded the part titled "challanges.... As a matter of fact that section contains criticisms expressed towards the Neocathecumenal way from inside the Church. I have inserted back the letter of Cardinal Arinze. This letter contains a set of requirements issued to the leadership and the followers of the Neocatechumenal way which they have to stricly comply with in a two years time (expiring in Dec. 2007) If not a criticism this is surely a challenge. Mynollo
That letter by Arinze is definitely not a challenge, the Roman Catholic Church did not challenge the Neo. It's a recent development. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdegi (talk • contribs) 03:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Well Joedgi your defition of challenge is confused. If in a letter like the one the pope sent to the Neocatechumenal leadeship (via cardinal Arinze), requests of corrections in the lithurgy are made, either that is a criticism or a challenge. Since a deadline is given to comply that can be seen as a challenge don't you think? Anyway call it as you want surely is the proof that some things have to be corrected...
Mynollo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.175.8.13 (talk) 08:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah well, you're entitled to your own opinion. Cheers! --Jdegi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.77.198.248 (talk) 22:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Archive
I have gone ahead and archived the page leaving the most current issues visible. Ncwfl 03:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh wow NCwfl, welcome back!! Jdegi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdegi (talk • contribs) 13:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Recent Developments
February 2008: Statutes approved [citation needed] as ad eternum?
In February 2008 the statutes were officially approved [citation needed] as ad eternum (Latin words meaning something like "for eternity"). -- This was posted by 81.84.64.141 (Portugal?). This will force a cleanup if a proper reference is found. --Gallitzin (talk) 12:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Propaganda concern
I have just made a correction about the Statutes. I want to bring this to the attention of the administrators as an example of some users using wikipedia as propaganda tool spreading false pieces of news. About the Statutes it is known that the five years period ad experimentum has expired in June. No official statement by the Church has been made so far about their extension or whatever else. Yet Jdegi had added the note that Kiko Arguello said they had been approved, trying to pass that off as an official final approval. That is simply FALSE!! No official statement has been made so far by the Church, yet this biased user insists in using wikipedia as his/her little tool of propaganda.
Mynollo
Mynollo, we'll all remember your words in a few weeks time. Yes, KIko Arguello has proclaimed that the Pope has given his approval, you'll hear about it very soon. Do not make the ignorant mistake of passing all my work off as propaganda. WHy did you undo the newly added information about the communities in the Middle East? This is vandalism. Keep off the page if you can't help vandalising it, thank you very much. 80.77.201.235 (talk) 09:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Jdegi
If you have a reason for removing the neocatechumenal way statistics in the middle east, as you have so far done twice, please discuss it here. Thank you
80.77.201.235 (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Jdegi
Kiko Arguello has been saying the same thing about the approval for the past 5 months and yet no official statement by the Church and the Pope has yet been made. Kiko Arguello is not the Pope (maybe you would like him to be) so his word has no official value my friend. To pass it off as such is an example of dishonest information, period. Don't even try to accuse me of vandalism. I didn't touch any part relative to the statistics of the NC (even though I am very skeptical of numbers given by the organizers as the Loreto meeting case teaches us). And when I make any change is always based on properly cited reliable sources.
Oh yes you have touched the statistics, it's on the history page that you've done it. You undid them for no apparent reason. And about the approval, so you're reaady to give heed to korazym, and not to what Kiko arguello says. You're biased man. If Kiko said that they're going to be approved, then it should well be on the page. Don't undo it simply coz you don't believe the announcment. It has been made, so it has to be written. 80.77.201.235 (talk) 09:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Jdegi
Oh then I have done it by mistake.
I remember now, I was looking at history
to see the changes I had done, I apologize, not totally familiar with the wikipedia tools yet. ( By the way I hadn't even read that part you mention)
And as far as regards the approval I believe wikipedia should report only official statments.
On this matter no official statment has been made, I am not following Korazym
I am following the Vatican Organs and media. Kiko Arguello has been talking about this approval
for the past 5 months in all internal meetings of his movement.
But official organs of the Church have not made any pronounciation yet.
So as you can see it is of no value what Kiko says, he cannot approve himself, he is not he Pope.
If he wants to do so, he should leave the Catholic Church and found his own Kikian Church dont' you think?
By the way, enough with these petty arguments.
Wikipedia has to provide correct and honest information. About the approval, only official statements
should be reported, "rumors" do not qualify as such. I believe that any administrator
if he/she had time to intervene, would acknowledge this simple common sense argument.
Kiko won't leave the catholic church to found his own kikian church as you so obviously wish he would. And ok I agree only official announcements should be written down. Then that includes 3,200 neocatechumenal way youth who answer the calling; it's official. Listen mynollo, while undoing the 3200 neocatechumenal way meeting thing, you're also undoing other work such as the statistics for the middle east in the statistics page. Kindly do not undo these again. Undo just the part of the neocatechumenal way meeting you don't agree with, not all the work done in several parts of the article!! Don't worry if you did it by mistake, these are things that happen. careful now... 80.77.201.235 (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)jdegi
I've removed the sentence that says that Kiko announced the approval of the statutes, since it's not YET official. It will be soon though. But anyway I've removed it. I think that the 3,200 neocatechumenal youth is after all official, it was announced by the organizers, whereas the korazym thing is an opinion. So it should stay, please let's discuss it here instead of undoing it and re doing it non stop.
80.77.201.235 (talk) 15:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Jdegi
Ok, let's reach a compromise. 3,200 remains in the title, but Korazym remains in the body.
I would trust more Korazym on this, since, though supporting the Neocatechumenal way
still keeps some independence and doesn't go with the organizers who of course are highly tempted by propaganda.
Mynollo
Compromise reached :o) I'm happy we were able to reach it finally. Take care Bodo Gelbe; auf widerschen! 80.77.201.235 (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Jdegi
I have deleted the other two sources you added for two reasons 1) all these other sources just report the numbers as given by the organizers, so they don't add new information. 2) adding a too long list of sources was making the text sound a little ridicolous.....
External Links
I think the list of links should contain also some important website of critics of the Neocatechumenal Way. As also mentioned in the text there are criticisms inside the Church about this movement and they should be properly referenced in the links. Of course there is some biased user who doesn't like to show these links because would like wikipedia to be its little tool of propaganda and keeps deleting them. I am trying hard to have a discussion on reasonable terms but seems a though task. Anyway I added the link and would like somebody to intervene and LOCK the list of links. Is there a way to avoid wikipedia being used as propaganda tool?? Mynollo
I just don't understand why first you add a link and then you want to lock it. I happen to realise that you always add negative material, including that link. Who's propaganda tool is it now? I don't see it at all a reasonable discussion if you first add, then expect the thing to be locked. I have changed the name of the link, because after checking the site, I realised it's not run by catholic priests. Enrico Zoffoli is dead, The Sunday times is the main paper of the UK, a protestant country with clearly anti-catholic views, the third link in the site is by an italian engineer. the fourth link IS NOT EVEN SIGNED. and the fifth link is also by the italian engineer. This is not balanced, and it is certainly biased mynollo!! I'll have to change the name, since it is DEFINITELY not run by catholic priests.
--Jdegi
Actually, what the page says is this: Questo sito è nato per l’impegno di un gruppo di sacerdoti, religiosi e laici that doesn't mean just italian catholic priests. Who's playing the innocent now? --Jdegi
Dear Jdegi you are misinformed that website is run by italian priests. That's just the english part of site. The rest, in italian contains all articles and comment by those italian priests (I guess you speak some italian, you can go to the homepage and check yourself) And don't play innocent here. The reason I want to lock it is because you have always removed it so far.
I don't like your tone. Besides, I thought we had agreed on the 3200 thing, so why did you change it AGAIN on the world youth day page? You want to lock it because you want your edits to stay. Fine, im not against that, but do discuss it here first. Now, im going to write that "according to the organizers, 3200 answered the call..." I'm trying to act by the compromise, so please respect what we've agreed upon. Thanks, --Jdegi
We agreed about the 3200 in the title, that is still there I believe, the korazym source has to be in the text as agreed. I respect my pacts as such.
Mynollo
I said on the world youth day section. By the way, check this out; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:193.175.8.13 that's an answer to your accusation that I removed the link you put up. as it transpires, your link is not allowed! I request that from now on, you stop using disdainful language when talking to me. I have proved time and again that I'm trying to discuss things, whereas you accuse me of playing innocent, saying that im removing your links. --Jdegi
I have checked the history and even if I am not totally familiar with it yet, it says that before your intervention the link was there (at 17:27 )after your intervention at 17.37 was not there anymore. Haven't I caught you redhanded here?... Mynollo
no actually you haven't. this is the same as when you "vandalised" the statistics claiming you didnt do it then realising that you did. I have provided you now with a link that shows you clearly who changed your site and that it's not allowed, YET you still insist it's me. come on mynollo, don't you think you're taking this to a personal level? --jdegi
Listen Jdegi I have proof you are clearly not telling the truth.
Go to the history (I even have saved it on my hard disk to keep proof).
At 17:27 the link I put was there, after your intervention at 17:37
was not there anymore.
What you are talking about happened way before that time.
So I can say I have proof that you are clearly lying now.
On the contrary for the statistics thing that you mention, I already apologized for that, don't you remember?
As I told you I am not familiar yet with the history, and I probably did it by clicking by mistake on the undo link in the history page
(actually I just was looking for the previous stored versions of the wikipedia page, which now I have understood how to access.)
The reason I told you I knew nothing about it , is because I hadn't realized I had done it and also because I am not interested in that part of the wiki page which I have not even read. When you explained it to me I realized how it could have happened.
By the way I am not interested in the statistics part of the page (there is no external check on those, so one is forced to go with
the numbers given by the organizers)
And you did it again!
Very well done Jdegi, it's there clear in the history now.
Now we know for sure that you (but I showed you proof before) that you dont tell the truth.
How can we trust your contributions to wikipedia?
Mynollo
well since you were clearly told by moderators that the link shouldn't be there, i thought it should be removed, however you did it again. ah well i'm sick and tired of squabbling. you can have the last word, it won't make a difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.77.200.151 (talk) 19:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Current Issues
There seem to be two strong issues currently.
The first is the issue with the 3,200 which are said to have stood up during the Loreto meeting with Kiko the day after the pope. Currently the main issue lies between contrasting sources mainly with Korazym supporting the belief that the numbers are inflated rather than being true figures. Many others any I have pointed out various sources which indicate that is was approx. 3,200 (figure in rounding giving it an error factor of around 50), the first of these is personal experience, I and many others were present at the meeting and know what was said, if personal experience doesn’t suffice (and in this case it seems to have not) there are also another 2 sources the first is Radio Vaticana http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/it1/Articolo.asp?c=152952 and Zenithttp://www.zenit.org/article-20409?l=english both with to myself and thousands of others appear as indisputable sources. Due to the previous agreement made above I will not be editing the section of those 2 particular details, I do however have the intention of revamping that entire section into a more Wikipedia style section.
The second issue is of the geocities page. The main reason it should not be on the page is that first of all it is an extremely unreliable source. I am perfectly fluent in Italian so I understand completely what is said and furthermore it is a self published page thus violating WP:SPS, resulting in numerous warnings from administrators and other Wikipedia users must assist in enforcing decisions made by the hierarchy. Ncwfl (talk) 07:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
This is simply your opinion which counts as anyone's else. I am italian and i can tell you that website is run by important and well known italian priests who have also published many books about the Neocatechumenal way (NC) , some of them quoted in the Literature section. It is also the italian website with highest google hits under "cammino neocatecumenale" search (after the official NC site). It is very likely that you are a member of NC using wikipedia for you little propaganda crusade. We are here to re-estabilish a more balanced and truthful information. Most of the information as the numbers you mention have a unique source, the organizers and leaders of the NC ( prone to propaganda) and since this organization is very closed to any external scrutiny any other independent and reliable source is very much needed to have a "closer to te truth"-picture of the NC.
Arguments like "I was there" let me tell you are ridicolous. One has to go with reliable sources, one has Zenit (and others) who simply repeat the figures given by the organizers and Korazym, which by the way supports the NC (read the article) which reports differently doing estimates "on the field". Both sources have to be shown for a principle of honest information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.175.8.13 (talk) 11:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC) Mynollo
By the way the current form of the loreto meeting session after your intervention can be endorsed. Mynollo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.175.8.13 (talk) 11:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Claiming propaganda is an old dagger that has become dull, and its only purpose serves to insult the receiver and that rarely works.
- In regards to the geocities page, I attempted to be as neutral as possible in my argument stating solely what is said from Wikipedia. The unreliability of the website is based on the fact it is a self published web page and by the guidelines issued by wikipedia it is automatically deemed as unreliable. This being said even if there were a page that supported the way (such as the page accompanying the geocities one) I would remove it leaving only the pages that have a traceable and accurate source (IE the Vatican and the official page).
- Just as you said, I agree in saying that personal experiences do not count thus announcing the 2 sources. Radio Vaticana and Zenit are both extremely prominent and well-known new organizations thus the information given, is in fact relatively accurate.
- On a small note, please don't forget to sign in with your user name and sign when you post on the talk page, it simplifies things a great deal. Thank You.
I know it is a geocities page, but as I told you is very reliable, since it is run by catholic priests authors of important (not self-published) books and publications about the Neocatechumenal way (even quoted in the literature section of this page).
So I think that it is very appropriate to show this link and in this case an exception can be made.
I think wikipedia criteria are just general guidelines to avoid interventions by occasional users for advertising, spamming etc.
So "cum grano salis" I think that this website (the one with highest google hits on "cammino neocatecumenale" search)
is entitled to be linked here.
Mynollo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mynollo (talk • contribs) 17:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The removal is necessary, in order to keep the information presented fair. There is first of all a juridical perspective: the personal opinions of the bishops and priests quoted, contrast, in matters not subject to personal judgment, with the constant, authoritative and final words of the Holy See, and therefore, generate confusion and misunderstanding.
Canon Law requires the Supreme Authority of the Church to define the Catholic character of any association. This websites as it was presented by Mynollo, undermines the official Vatican position regarding the Neocatechumenal Way; it presents for 80% of its content, personal opinions and critiques, contrary to the official position of the Vatican (that is, I repeat, the only legal authority who has definitory powers), and ingenerate the false idea in the reader that the Neocatechumenal Way, could be a reality not approved, or dangerous or mistaken.
Furthermore, it is philosophically erroneous, in an encyclopedia, trying to define the essence of a reality so wide spread in the Catholic world, through the words of its detractors. If you want to define the Necocatechumenal Way, you must keep only its inward nature and true substance, rejecting what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, and personal. If you want to spread critiques to the Neocatechumenal Way, you are free to do so, but not in a page that must contain its essential definition and only facts relevant to its substance. You may want to review also the Undue weight rule WP:NPOV#Undue_weight Ncwfl (talk) 15:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree on your last statement, following your reasoning wikipedia should not report criticisms well supported by documentations. So Escriva biography should be simply an hagiography and not report any criticism or controversy?. Criticisms must be there and controversy as well, of course we are talking about well documented criticisms. People who read wikipedia need to have a full picture of the NC way, and on basis of a complete information form their opinion. It is not you who decides what is accidental, illusory or personal. We are talking about theologians reporting their analysis of NC teachings and catechesis. I am sure everybody would like to read also their side of the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mynollo (talk • contribs) 22:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Alleged Heresies in the Neocatechumenal Way
Thesis here are taken from Kiko and Carmen "catechesis documents" with the page numbers in brackets.
"The overwhelming majority of the Neocatechumenals do not seem to be aware of these errors and draw from the Way only the good purged of the dross of evident and serious dogmatic aberrations" - Father Enrico Zoffoli[1]
Rejection of mass as sacrifice (the Church, at the altar, does not offer to God any Victim)
According to Kiko, "the sacrificial and priestly ideas" would be in fact derived from paganism (p. 322); "the idea of sacrifice" would mean "going back to the Old Testament"
Carmen is convinced that "the sacrificial ideas, that Israel had had and had elevated, reintroduced themselves in the Christian Eucharist" (p. 333).[2]
Sin is not an offense of God
he claims that man cannot "steal from God his glory..."; he "cannot hurt God (...), because in that case God would be vulnerable and would not be God..." (p.182)
Man can't avoid evil
"man cannot but do good because he is separated from God, because he has sinned and has remained radically powerless and incapable, to the mercy of demons. He has remained a slave of the Evil one. The Evil one is his lord. For this it useless to give advice, or to give a demanding sermon. Man cannot do good (...). You cannot obey the law; the law tells you to love, to resist evil, but you cannot: you do what the Evil one wants." (p. 130. See p. 135).[3]
Jesus Christ is not at all an ideal of life
"Jesus Christ is not at all an ideal of life. Jesus Christ did not come to give us an example or to teach us to fulfil the law" (p. 125).[4]
No priests needed (everyone is a priest)
"We do not even have priests in the sense of persons who are separate from all because in our name they get in contact with the divinity. Because our priest, he who intercedes for us, is Christ. Moreover, since we are His Body, we are all priests. ... In the New Testament, the word "priest" is not used except in reference to Christ; instead it speaks of ministers and presbyters..." (p. 56s). [5]
I suggest that this should not be deleted, if deleted I suggest to start a new article called "Criticism of Neocatechumenal Way", there is a lot of criticism of Neocatechumenal Way, they are accused of being
- sect
- brainwashing people
- heresies
This allegations have to be addressed, If not here I suggest new article to be created. Kiko cathecism is nothing to do with cathecism of catholic church.
Long?
I guess it's just me, but it seems a long way to tell that 100,000 youth get together every year. Pledge to go to church on Sunday or somehow follow one or more church rules. Lots of statutes to accomplish this. Whew. Student7 (talk) 23:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well it's not that they gather every year, just that this year there happened to be around 100,000 youth at the meeting with Kiko in Loreto. This doesn't happen every year, it was in special occasion of the meeting with the pope in loreto. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the second part, any chance for some clarification? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ncwfl (talk • contribs) 06:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
German Reference
The website that was cited is: http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/TED/Articolo.asp?c=198318
I am not sure if anybody bothered to translate the actual German from the website before citing it as a source. The crucial segment of the paragraph (which refers and quotes Bishop Clemens) says the following:
Bishop Josef Clemens, secretary of the Pontifical Council of the Laity, expects the definitive recognition of the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way "in a short time".
I think the citation regarding approval of the statutes should be changed accordingly to reflect what Bishop Clemens was actually quoted as saying. User ChristeVita
Balance of Opinion
Is there anyway for their to be a balanced opinion in this article? I agree wholeheartedly that this article needs cleaning up, but they way it reads right now, is too give a negative perspective on the Way. There are whole sections that cite as their sources "rumors" and my earlier correction of the statement made by Bishop Josef Clemens (the Secretary of the Pontifical Council of the Laity) has been completed eliminated from the text.
The Neocatechumenal Way has done much good throughout the world and within the Roman Catholic Church. I find it disturbing that this article is constantly a battleground between those who vehemently oppose the Way and those who passionately support it. If the ideal is neutrality, then that has to be a standard that is followed uniformly. All I see in the article in its current form is an incredibly biased piece of anti-Neocatechumenal Way propaganda. And as it stands this article in unacceptable. Furthermore, the headings of each section imply a negative connotation (i.e. The Statutes: A Partial Approval or Liturgy Problems).
For the record, it is my understanding that the Neocatechumenal Way (and particularly the Statutes) have already been approved. What is not on record is the official approval ceremony. But as I understand it, with certain crucial modifications, the Neocatechumenal Way (and its Statutes) have been approved. The validity of this is bolstered by Bishop Josef Clemens' statements to the effect that he feels the Way will be officially recognized in 'a short time'.
The Letter to the Neocatechumenal Communities by Francis Cardinal Arinze is also being mischaracterized by labeling it under the rubric of "Liturgy Problems." These are issues that must be resolved, and all people who contribute to this article must respectfully find a way to create an article that does not disparage the good the Way has done and that does not base itself on rumors and slander.
User ChristeVita
Thank you very much Ncwfl. The article looks much better. ChristeVita —Preceding comment was added at 17:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Note on Sources
I have noticed that several sources are not being translated before they are cited. The Italian source (used to bolster the claim that Josef Clemens is opposed to the Way) actually affirms his belief that he expects the Statutes to be approved shortly. The remainder of that article is an unapologetically biased diatribe against the Way. These sources must 1) be translated before they are cited and 2)if they are cited they must acknowledge their explicit bias against the Way rather than passing it off as the opinions of the Church, Bishops, or Theologians.
ChristeVita —Preceding comment comment added at 00:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Concerning new section and reverting
You cannot submit extremely large sections without giving a chance for others to explore and correct any mistakes they find. If you notice, my edits did not consist of reverting it back to the phase where my last edit left it, but I explored the changes made to the previous sections and found them completely inappropriate and slanderous. Under no definition would it apply as vandalism. I have always attempted to seem neutral in my presentation of "The Way" agreeing on many things in order to balance the POV of the article.
Ncwfl (talk) 03:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Style
When editing the article:
- do not "unwikify" text
- edit "pidgin English" expressions
- do not erase large sections (because others need a chance to read, explore and correct mistakes)
- write correct names ("Argüello", not "Arguello"; and so on)
- do not call "inappropriate" or "slanderous" documented relevant facts
Neocatechumenal contributors:
- should not add unproven/undocumented things (like "the NC Way (and particularly the Statutes) have already been approved")
- should not add irrelevant material (example: encouraging does not mean formal approval)
- should not wipe out criticisms (verify sources instead! did the Cardinal XYZ actually say ABC?)
- should not edit the article to match Neocatechumenal propaganda
Sources
Some "googling" will help to verify that the internet-available sources below are cited almost everywhere in the websites publishing NC-related news.
Most of the documentation is in Italian language. The letter by Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi (Jan 17, 2006) was written in Italian. The letter by Cardinal Arinze (Dec 1, 2005) was written in Italian. Interviews to cardinals Cipriani Thorne and Medina Estévez (April 2008) were in Italian. Most of the sources are in Italian language.
Translating them is not a trivial work, but Italian-speaking contributors will continue to translate the relevant parts, or cite the official translations.
Zoffoli
Fr. Enrico Zoffoli (1915-1996) is perhaps one of the most known Italian apologetics authors of the XX century (known at least in Italy). He wrote quite a number of books (mostly philosophy and apologetics). See Enrico Zoffoli (Italian wikipedia page).
He wrote six books on the NC Way, and a large number of articles and letters, which are the main known source of criticism to the Way (and known for their completeness and deep analysis).
Zoffoli is thus a reliable source.
Zoffoli has been dead for 12 years and wrote about the NC Way prior to the approval of the Statutes. This is an outdated source of dubious merit.Reetex (talk) 14:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- My understanding of Reetex's point is not so much that Zoffoli sources are outdated, but that they were written previous to the temporary approval of the statues. This being said it is not logical for the Holy See to approve, even temporarily, if in fact the catechisis given in Neocatechumenal way were in fact full of heretical statements. It just doesn't add up, any way it is looked at. Cardinal Ratzinger did in fact say to rewrite the catachesis, this is completely understandable. A published book cannot be a transcript, especially in the church, where ideas need to be checked to see that they do not detract from the church. The only recent concerns, and in fact real concerns, are the liturgical ones, and if anything parochial issues, even these are not as often, either the pastor likes the neocatechumenal way or they don't.
- Ncwfl (talk) 20:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Either way, those sources need to be there.
- The Statutes did not solve anything: today the criticism to the NC Way is always the same.
- Your opinions about "a published book cannot be a transcript" is not a source for wikipedia. Notice also that other movement leaders published their transcripts (examples: Lubich, Giussani) but there were no problems.
- You Neocatechumenals just keep fighting against Zoffoli, only because Zoffoli criticised the NCW.
- -- Rpgon2 (talk) 09:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
No, that is the reason the cannot be there, because they statute have in fact overcome this. If there were doctrinal errors the Holy See would have never, ever, given a 5 year approval of the statutes. Did they give Luther 5 years to recant his statements, and give him temporary approval? Unless my history is faulty, i think not. So it doesn't add up. I am not against Zoffoli, i don't care about him, the issue is what hes written presents a view other that detracts greatly from the official view of the church, and so one that doesn't make sense with the approval of the statutes.
Is it really an issue if it was being rewritten so it wasn't in transcript form? Or do you feel the need to argue everything?Ncwfl (talk) 22:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for your opinions (however, they are not relevant to the article).
- Luther did not immediately receive a formal excommunication. Didn't you know? And Kiko is trying to hide heretical statements... as much as possible. But his strategy did not last - thanks to fr.Zoffoli and others.
- Did you read the (expired) Statutes? I did. They told what the NCW has to do. They did not say "well done, NCW!" They did not mention the "heresy" issue, because they required the Catechetical Directory... that was never published. And the Catechetical Directory cannot be published because of heretical statements and liturgical abuses that Kiko does not yet want to erase. Also, do not forget that Kiko and the NCW do not obey to Arinze's letter containing "Holy Father's decisions" (especially on the manner of receiving the Holy Communion).
- Thus, even if the NCW gets some new Statutes, doctrinal errors will not become truth, and liturgical abuses will not magically become liturgy. The Statutes give generic guidelines only. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 00:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- You obviously misunderstood my reference to Luther. I did in fact know that Luther was not excommunicated immediately, but they did not wait 40 years to do it either. If there were in fact heretical statements in the catechisis given wouldn't the pope have demanded that he recant them, no such action was ever taken, but rather the pope gave an ad experimentum approval to its statutes. What does this indicate? Well primarily the statutes do not solely contain, as you claim, what the Neocatechumenal Way must do, but it also gives an approval, even if temporary, to what it has been doing, all of the elements that are outlined in them. Ncwfl (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- Kiko has always been well aware of his errors, and always required the followers of the NC cult to keep liturgies and doctrines secret. Until early 1980's, NC did not have big troubles.
- The massive misinformation about the NC Way, and an intelligent fact-hiding propaganda did most of the work. But the most winning strategy was (and currently is) to avoid every public statement about doctrinal and liturgical issues.
- This is why Kiko does not answer questions about his heresies - and he never left anything written as well.
- Thus, we have a case of a heresy that cannot be explicitly documented. This is the same case that happened until Irenaeus compiled his Against Heresies.
- The Statutes are not meant to declare that the NCW is not heretical; instead, they are meant to keep in the Roman Catholich Church the NC people refusing the errors of the NCW. Simply a "pastoral charity" method.
- Also note that in some cases entities approved by the Church were found to contain heretical or other weird things; the last one, a few years ago, was a community (approved and praised by highest Vatican cardinals) where its founder... proclaimed itself to be a "reincarnation" of the Virgin Mary.
- Neocatechumenal propaganda, instead, thinks that the Statutes -past or future ones- only mean that no one can criticise the NCW. --- Rpgon2 (talk) 17:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Rpgon2 I get it -- In your OPINION, the NC Way is bad. However, shepherding a few obscure sources that comport with your OPINION does not supernaturally transform your OPINION into truth. Normally, I would leave this alone but you insist on manipulating the wiki system to present the NC Way in a false light. You bandy about words like "opinion" and "propaganda" as if you were the sole arbiter of the terms but it is becoming increasingly clear to me that you are not at all interested in providing an accurate picture of the organization. Instead, your raison d’entre appears to be to provide a distorted view of a fledgling charism of the Church. How do I know this? Because you made wholesale changes to NC Way page almost immediately. This is a clear indication of your malicious conduct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reetex (talk • contribs) 16:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC) oops! forgot to sign Reetex (talk) 17:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- In your OPINION, anything that does not praise the NC Way is bad.
- If you think that this article presents a "false light", then have a look at other wikipedia articles related to the Catholic Church, and examine how many "false lights" are out there.
- If you read the history of the article, you will see that NC "watchdogs" are indeed the ones wiping out everything that does not comply with NC propaganda standards.
- -- Rpgon2 (talk) 17:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Marighetto
Don Elio Marighetto, I segreti del Cammino Neocatecumenale, edizioni Segno, Udine, Italy, 2001, ISBN 88-7282-547-4 (note: "Don" is the Italian term for "Fr.", Roman Catholic clergyman title).
Title means: "secrets of the NC Way". The first part of the book contains criticism on the NC Way; the second part of the book contains large excerpts of documents from Italian Bishops.
While this book has a critical point of view on the NC Way, the excerpts from Italian Bishops statements against the NC Way are reliable and verifiable.
- Has anyone been able to find this book? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ncwfl (talk • contribs) 14:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Do you want me to send that book to you? If you don't know how to verify an ISBN, you may at least check that it was cited in the Italian wikipedia page about the NCW. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- It was just curiosity if anyone else had ever found it. I attempted to find it using various World, European and Italian ISBN databases but could not find it.Ncwfl (talk) 20:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Rpgon2 your method of authenticating sources belies your bias. It is circular. You have dubious sources vouching for other dubious sources... you are reaching. Your sources are nothing more than a Ponzi scheme.Reetex (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Insulting? Since when is questioning the veracity of your sources insulting? There is no room for ipse dixit logic on Wikipedia.Reetex (talk) 20:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Alterinfo
"Alterinfo" is an Italian group of former Neocatechumenals, led by fr. Gino Conti, a Roman Catholic priest (something like the "awareness networks" and groups criticizing other religious movements and communities).
Its internet website is hosted on Geocities since 1999 and contains large excerpts from Zoffoli, Conti and Marighetto books and articles. With a few exceptions (letters to the webmaster, etc), everything on that website was already published "on paper".
Thus it is safe to link those pages in that website.
- The pages from the books represent a copyright infringement and Wikipedia says to remove any information tied to these sources. -Ncwfl (talk) 14:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Citing sources is not a copyright violation. The article Neocatechumenal Way cites many documents (books and articles and Bishops letters), and excerpts by some of them are available on that Alterinfo website (other websites exist, but may not be fully relevant to the article). User:Ncwfl (incidentally member of Neocatechumenal Way) is fighting his own battle to "normalize" the article to official propaganda. By "removing links" he means "deletion of entire well-documented sections". User:Ncwfl looks like playing with Wikipedia rules... -- Rpgon2 (talk) 08:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- How about you let an administrator decide? Entire pages are subject to deletion if they infinge on copyright laws. My attempt is to create a page according to wikipedias standards, with neutrality, a well written article, and with proper sources. If you look at the standards Geocities pages are not allowed, but I disregarded this and asked if the information gived was reliable as a source in wikipedia. Another user pointed out it might infringe on copyright laws so I followed instructions found on wiki's copyright pages and am now leaving it to an administrator. --Ncwfl (talk) 12:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- Please, be fair.
- You argument about "copyright violation" issues without any sort of demostration.
- Personal opinions are not source for wikipedia.
- Your hostile attitude towards anything that does not praise the NCW is well known.
- Also, you play with wikipedia rules trying every possible trick to get out of this article the most relevant sources.
- "Administrator"? Incidentally, this is the common Neocatechumenal strategy: forced interpretation of "administrator" words to your own advantage: «looks like», in your opinion, means «surely is»; and immediately you stated (your own words): «remove any and all information tied to this source» (not "links only").
- Clearly you lack any fairness.
- Please, stop your war against this article. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 12:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- The possiblity of copyright infringement was not offered by me, but by a third-party user.The website does in fact list excerpts from published books, which may violate copyright laws. I am seeking arbitration in this issue since we are both biased. If you have no doubt that you're not violating said laws, then administrative review should only enforce your argument. --Ncwfl (talk) 16:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me you area afraid of having the website reviewed for copyright infringement.--Ncwfl (talk) 20:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- You keep trying to game the system.
- Alleging "copyright violation" on simple citations, even when they are "rather large", is not that fair.
- We all understand that it is not always easy to hide the truth. All sorts of tricks have to be tried. First, call it "blatant, false, misleading" and erase "any and all", hoping no one will notice the WP:3RR. Then, call it "inaccurate" because of its hosting, hoping no one will find that it was an exception that proves the rule. Then, argue that the author of that book died 12 years ago and thus his book should be considered non-relevant, hoping that everyone will believe in you. Then, name those articles "copyviol", and flood talk pages and admin pages, hoping that no one will verify. What trick will appear next time? -- Rpgon2 (talk) 22:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Magister
This is a Catholic reporter working for L'espresso, a somewhat leftist magazine (Italy). He is an important source because he has access to original Vatican documents, and he was always the first to publish them. For example, he was the first to publish the text of the letter by cardinal Arinze (also with English translation), a very few weeks after it was sent; and he was also the first to publish the letter by Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi («Very Content with the Norms», Jan 17, 2006).
Since 2004, all of his articles are published in Italian, Spanish, English and French. English translations are complete and accurate.
- In which case he is in fact a source only for documents, his opinion and interpretation of them has absolutely no bearing whatsoever, or the opinions of others which he chooses to publish since he is 100% against the Way.
- Please be fair.
- He had first-hand access to original Vatican documents related to the NCW.
- Thus, his articles are relevant.
- You Neocatechumenals, as usual, try to badmouth everyone who does not praise the Way. Even if it is the first man on the Earth to publish the Arinze's letter and the reply from Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi. --- Rpgon2 (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Its not an issue of fairness, its a matter of truth. I am not badmouthing him, and have tried to be as understanding as possible in the presentation of the way, unlike yourself. Magister does have access, but his opinions are no more important than my own or yours, and as a result neither are his interpretation of the documents. In principle we cannot provide views of anyone other then the official view of the church which all faithful are bound to. When ever I make an edit I avoid, as much as possible, inserting phrases which would sound as propaganda. I try to limit my own writing and not plaster the page with slogans as is claimed. You, and many others, seem to think that unless the page is filled with criticism then it is not balanced. While i maintain that a page is balanced when it is completely devoid of praise and criticism, which explains why i have tried my best to not praise it in my writing, and let the reader assert their own opinion in the article. Previous to your involvement in the page there was in fact a criticism section, i don't recall writing it but i do remember seeing it, and it probably did not encompass the magnitude which you desire, but it was in fact there.
- Ncwfl (talk) 20:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Magister's opinions have relevance because he has access to those documents. Neither you nor your NCW-catechists had access to those documents. Thus, your opinions - and your NCW-catechists opinions - are not relevant for this article, while Magister's comments are.
- Wikipedia articles are full of "anyone other than official view"; just have a look to politics, music, religions articles. You Neocatechumenals want to erase any criticism, be it "official" or "unofficial".
- Criticism to the NCW is a fact - and a largely documented fact. And it comes from everywhere in the Roman Catholic world. Thus, until the NCW will stop calling itself "Catholic", that criticism is actually relevant. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 09:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- It still does not grant him infallibility, his opinions aren't worth anything. Perhaps if he was at least a priest, but he isn't, and even then basis for validity changes. It is not erasing the criticism, it is still mentioned elsewhere, you managed to repeat everything more than once. If you managed to represent the criticism section without a negative view point, then I would perhaps be more likely to leave it, but you seem to have claimed the page as your own and immediately revert any changes made.Ncwfl (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- But no one granted Kiko infallibility as well. Kiko's opinions aren't worth anything, because currently the NCW is an organisation that does not have any formal acknowledgement (because the incomplete one... expired 11 months ago). Perhaps if Kiko was a priest - but he isn't - many issues would be already solved.
- I see, you wipe out everything that is not a praise of the NCW. Your contribute history shows that you exist on wikipedia only for "normalisation" of the NCW page. Many years as a watchdog, to spread out the official NC propaganda. Every time you erased criticism that was "mentioned elsewhere", you wiped out the "elsewhere" as well. Your behaviour makes me (and -maybe- others) that it's true that Neocatechumenals have to defend the NCW even if this requires them some badmouthing, false statements, forgetting fairness...
- -- Rpgon2 (talk) 00:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- No one claimed Kiko was infallible, only the pope and even then under certain circumstances. You may want to rephrase your last sentence, as it stands it makes no sense.Ncwfl (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- I apologize, the humor ecapes me. I find it with great difficulty to believe that the allegiance to the Kiko is any greater than that to the Pontiff. The "Under certain circumstances" refers to the infallibility, not the statues, those are binding to whatever is mentioned within them. Ncwfl (talk) 19:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Petrus (papanews.it)
This is a well-known Italian on-line magazine featuring articles and documents about Benedict XVI. It was largely cited by pro-Neocatechumenal websites until recently (examples: in Segni dei Tempi website, in Korazym website), when it began featuring articles and interviews on the NC Way.
- I am having an issue finding validity in this web page, seems it hosts a lot of unverifiable information.Ncwfl (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Carmen Hernández
The official speech of Carmen Hernández on June 28, 2002 (presentation of the ad experimentum Statutes) contains lots of informations on the history of the NC Way coming from one of the two initiators. For example, she says that Casimiro Morcillo visited the slums in 1964; she defines the young Kiko as a «cursillist bigot» and states that when she met him «in a bar», he told her to have had a Marian apparition.
- This does in fact represent one of the biggest mistakes that anti-neocatechumenal members make. Did Carmen say this? Of course, but it is taken out of context. If you read the entire part it represents an entirely different view.
- Ncwfl (talk) 14:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- The original quote says
Now, according to the quote, she does in fact say that she thought he was cursillist biggot, but only that was her original impression when she was him in the bar. Then she saw how god worked through him, so it is in fact a misconstrued truth if you only say the first part. (This is not a translation of the text) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ncwfl (talk • contribs) 11:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)"E quando Kiko comincia a parlare della Famiglia di Nazareth io ho pensato: "Questo è un giovane bigotto cursillista". Ma dopo ho visto come Dio lo aveva condotto a questa idea della "piccola comunità", che tante volte aveva cercato di fare, in altri posti prima delle baracche, e non c’era riuscito."
- My understanding of language is exactly that. Example, I saw Felix in a bar and I thought he was a fox, but then I saw that he was a cat. Now, is felix a cat or a fox? Obviously a cat, and Carmen's words operate in the exact same manner. Ncwfl (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, the ice is melting beneath the feet of Rpgon2. Carmen actually sounds pretty funny too bad this was taken out of context by NC Way detractors.Reetex (talk) 17:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is interesting considering if you had checked my user page you would find that I am in fact a native speaker of Italian. Ncwfl (talk) 17:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is because I can verify the information, thus giving the ability to judge them and your use of them. I never made the claim that they are "blatant, innacurate, and misleading" because they were in Italian, I made it because of the contents and the interpretation presented by yourself. Ncwfl (talk) 19:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- You called them "blatant, inaccurate, misleading..." only because they were different from NCW Propaganda.
- You never erased anything that was pro-NC.
- You understand Italian language, and still go questioning those sources (incidentally, books, articles, public statements from Catholic hierarchy). -- Rpgon2 (talk) 22:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- I called them exactly what they are, I know the truth and I also know what is false. Once again, I question because I understand, if one follows blindly then all you do is run into a wall and make yourself look like a fool.--Ncwfl (talk) 01:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Article
History of the NC Way
The term "Neocatechumenate" actually refers to the doctrines of Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernández, contained in the (currently unpublished) Catechetical Directory (also known as "secret catechetical books" because their existence was denied by NC catechists up to a few years ago).
Italian Bishop Olmi said that NC Way catechists do not use the Catechism of the Catholic Church (this is known everywhere, but that was the first time a Bishop stated it).
The existence of the letter by fr. Dino Torreggiani to card. Angelo Dell'Acqua is cited in a number of pro-Neocatechumenal websites and in the NC Way Italian wikipedia page.
Description of the NC Way
The first sections of the article (up to Statistics and World Youth Days) contained almost only NC Way sources; somewhat a "describe yourself" article. That is: self-promotion.
Criticisms coming from Roman Catholic areas will help balance NC propaganda, and understand better the NC Way. Since the Way describes itself as a Roman Catholic thing, then Catholic hierarchy comments are highly relevant. As a counter-example, see the large Opus Dei article sections on controversies and their sources (rarely coming from Catholic hierarchy): this means that the quality of this article is even bigger that the Opus Dei one.
Statutes Problems
The Statutes were approved ad experimentum and referred to a (currently unpublished) Catechetical Directory. The "experimentum" ended (June 2007). No official statements from the Holy See came yet. This means that:
- the Statutes were incomplete (because of the missing Catechetical Directory)
- the Statutes expired (thus, since June 2007, NC Way is only an informal association).
The Statutes section of the article should not hide the facts.
Most Neocatechumenals highlight the "approval" of the Statutes, but deliberately forget to say that they referred to a yet non-existing document (the Catechetical Directory) and that they expired. They say that an "informal" approval is out there, but this is not documented. Kiko saying "we're approved", is a private opinion, not an approval by the Roman Catholic Church.
Kiko Argüello announced many times an "imminent" definitive approval, but to date nothing official came out. An Italian pro-Neocatechumenal website (Korazym) said that those «rumors» always came from Kiko; the Statutes case was therefore named "a telenovela" by Korazym authors.
June 2002: "John Paul II did not mention the event". You cannot cite the Pontiff when praises you and forget the Pontiff when deliberately ignores you (on such a great event, this has a meaning).
"Heresies": doctrinal errors have not yet officially corrected. For example, Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernández have been often been accused to deny the transubstantiation, but they never issued any declaration to defend theirselves.
Therefore, the term «problems» in the title is definitely correct.
"Rumors": many times Neocatechumenals claimed to have had some «informal» approval; these events often became featured news (the interview on La Razón, where Kiko said that Benedict XVI told him about the imminent approval, was considered reliable by a large number of newspapers and websites - example: Petrus/papanews.it).
Liturgy Problems and «Holy Father's decisions»
Catholic hierarchy is concerned about NC Way liturgies (documented by a rather large number of sources).
The letter by Cardinal Arinze contains «Holy Father's decisions». In one point (the "kiss of peace"), it grants a permission «pending further instructions» (that is: a temporary permission). In all other points, it restricts the Neocatechumenal liturgies to existing Missals and documents.
This means that Neocatechumenal liturgies deviated from the ritual norm of the Roman Missal (if this was not the case, then no «Holy Father's decisions» would have been sent to Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi; instead, the letter begins with: «in the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way shall accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church, without omitting or adding anything»: this means that up to 2002 Neocatechumenals "omitted" and "added" to their own will, instead of "accepting anf following" the liturgical books).
Therefore, the term «problems» in the title is adequate.
Neocatechumenals leaders try to hide the problem (see the notes of Gennarini's interpretation on the cited Jimmi Akin's pages).
Criticism from Catholics
Again, you cannot cite the Pontiff when praises, while ignoring the Pontiff when admonishes.
John Paul II wrote the letter Ogniqualvolta in 1990 (incidentally, it was addressed to Cordes, not to Kiko), but also reprimanded the Neocatechumenals in 1983 (and deliberately ignored the approval of the Statutes in June 2002, as said above).
Summary of the "concerns": everything is documented in the notes. For example, a famous Italian Catholic novelist writing on a widespread newspaper that Neocatechumenal chants are ugly.
Many priests, bishops, cardinals, criticized the NC Way. In this section there are only the well-documented ones. Many other criticized the NC Way without publishing documents (incidentally, also my Bishop and my parish priest).
Criticism to the NC Way coming from Roman Catholic world is still happening. In April 2008, cardinals Medina Estévez and cardinal Cipriani Thorne criticized the disobedience of the NC Way about liturgy. You cannot hide it.
Wiping out documented criticisms to the Way - criticisms from Catholic world -, will reduce the article to boring NC propaganda.
Recent Official Statements
Again, a number of important facts was discarded.
«Certain Norms» and «Very Content with the Norms»
In every Neocatechumenal community, it has always been described as «Pope sends 200 NC families in mission». Even on Zenit and it was incorrectly described as so. But in the official speech available on the Holy See website, Benedict XVI did not say anything that could be described as «Pope sends families»; instead, he talked about «certain norms», «imparted to you in my name». If you read the transcript of his speech, you can verify it. The event of Jan 12, 2006 could be better described as: "Benedict XVI notifies Neocatechumenals members and NC families going in mission, about his decisions on restricting liturgies of the NC Way".
A very few days later, Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi wrote a letter to the Pope claiming to be «very content with the norms», but also declaring they will act on their own: if the Pontiff requires «one Sunday per month», why do they need to notify to the Pontiff the need to «speak with the Bishop of each Diocese in order to arrange this participation, paying particular attention to the least brethren and those farthest away»? couldn't they just tell to the Neocatechumenals "one Sunday per month go to your parishes Mass, as Benedict XVI required"? why is dangerous having «the least brethren and those farthest away» going to the parish Mass one Sunday per month? It is thus an easy task to comment as Sandro Magister did.
«Many complications still exist today»
Again, you cannot cite the Pontiff when he says «I knew the Neocatechumenals from the very outset» and ignore the Pontiff when immediately after he says «It was a long Way, with many complications that still exist today».
Fr. Carcar is a NC Way member, and the Pope answered him explicitly about the NC Way.
It was easy for Sandro Magister to comment «Benedict XVI has stated in person that the definitive approval of their statutes is in question» after reading the transcript of the question-and-answer session.
«Reprimand» from Bishops of the Holy Land
Again, you cannot cite only the courtesy part of the letter. It was easy to highlight the «reprimand» parts of the letter. Neocatechumenals «are welcome», but shall «avoid making a group apart» (if this was not happened, then the Bishops would not have asked), shall «have the charity to understand and respect the attachment of our faithful to their own liturgies» (if there were not liturgy problems or divisions, the the Bishops would not have asked), and so on.
An independent and reliable source called it a «reprimand». Titling «Letter from Bishops of the Holy Land» will hide the real contents of the letter.
Melkite Leader Invites NC Way
«Melkite Leader» was one of the Bishops of the Holy Land that «reprimanded».
The «Melkite Leader» subsection is a logorrhoea about that "invitation"; it is hard to understand why «Melkite Leader» wrote to fr. Rossi to invite the NC Way, instead of writing to Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi. The «damage control» argument was an easy way to describe it (this is also documented).
The Final Approval
http://www.camminoneocatecumenale.it/en/index.asp (official site of the Neocatechumenal Way)
"WHAT IS THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY." Introduction by Kiko and Carmen: "The Lord has called us to live a way of conversion, through which we are coming to discover the immense riches of our faith in a post-baptismal catechumenate. During this catechumenate, gradually, stage by stage, step by step, we are descending to the waters of eternal regeneration, so that the baptism the Church has conferred on us in the past, may by our adherence to it, become a sacrament of salvation, good news for all men. Through the Neocatechumenate, a way of Christian initiation that develops a pastoral work of evangelization for adults is opened up at the center of the parish, This evangelization is bringing to a living faith many of our brothers and sisters who today live a Christianity of habit, and is giving to many people submerged in a secularized world the possibility of meeting Our Lord Jesus Christ through Christian communities which live their faith at an adult level: of love in the dimension of the cross and perfect unity.
How the Neocatechumenal Communities came into being To our astonishment, we witnessed a word which, taking flesh among these poor people who welcomed it with joy, brought to birth a community in prayer and a surprising liturgy as the response of all these brothers, laden with sins, who blessed the Lord for having remembered them. So, in the space of three years, we saw appearing before our eyes a tripod on which would be based the Way that the Lord was creating: the embryo of a Catechumenate, in a Church where fraternal communion was coming into being, in which love took on a dimension which surprised everyone: the dimension of the cross where one dies for the enemy. How they spread This love, made visible in a small community, was the sign which called to faith many people whose lives were far from the Church. The result was that the parish priests of St. Frontis in Zamora and of Christ the King in Madrid invited us to bring to their parishes the experience of the catechesis they had observed. To our surprise, even in these parishes where the social environment was quite different from that of the shanty town, we saw how communities on a way towards conversion were born after the announcement of the kerygma and two months of catechesis. When the Archbishop of Madrid at that time, the Most Rev. Mgr. Casimiro Morcillo, came into contact with this reality, he supported it enthusiastically, and he himself sent us to the parishes who wished to begin the experience, while urging us to act in union with the parish priest. This experience spread rapidly in Madrid and other Spanish dioceses. In 1968, we were invited to come to Rome, bearing a letter from the Archbishop of Madrid for Cardinal Dell'Acqua, then Vicar or Rome, and we began the same catechesis in the parish of Canadian Martyrs. It then spread throughout the diocese, through the preaching of catechists elected by the first communities, and in many other countries, in all the continents, including the missionary countries. Itinerant catechists Very soon requests from parish priests in other dioceses gave rise to the charisma of itinerant catechists. They leave their own communities for a certain time, and make themselves available to take the Neocatechumenate to the dioceses who ask for it. Many teams of itinerant catechists, after an experience of evangelization in their own country, have been called by the Lord to open the way in other nations, from whom numerous requests have come - from bishops and parish priests - particularly since 1972 onward. One of the greatest experiences we have today, and one for which we bless the Lord, is to see how God allows us to announce the Gospel in so many parts of the world. And not only do we proclaim the kerygma, but a community-based way for the gestation of faith appears, through which, with time, the parish can pass from pastoral work concentrated on the sacraments to one of evangelization. A concrete way of Evangelizing those who are far away The Neocatechumenal Way is lived out within the existing structure of the parish, and in communion with the bishop, in small communities each composed of people who are different in age, social status, outlook and culture. It is not a group formed spontaneously, neither is it an association, nor a spiritual movement, nor an elite within the parish. Rather, it is a group of people who wish to rediscover and to live Christian life to the full; to live the essential consequences of their Baptism, by means of a Neocatechumenate divided into different stages, like that of the early Church, but adapted to their condition as baptized persons. As a consequence, these communities have the mission of being, at the center of the parish, the sign and sacrament of the missionary Church (Synod of Bishops); of opening a concrete way of evangelizing the `far- away', by giving - in the measure to which faith has been developed - the signs that call pagans to conversions; that is love in the dimension of the cross, and unity. `Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples.' (John 12, 34-35). `May they all be one. Father, may they all be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me.' (John 17, 21). Bringing the Council to the parishes In the light of the 2nd Vatican Ecumenical Council, the Neocatechumenal Communities seemed to us a concrete way of rebuilding the Church in the form of small communities which are the visible body of the risen Christ in the world. They do not impose themselves; they consider it a duty not to destroy anything, but to respect everything. They present themselves as the fruit of a Church in renewal, one which tells its Fathers that they have been fruitful, for the communities have been born of them. Charismas and ministries Where the experience develops, one catches a glimpse of a new structure for the local Church, formed of small Christian communities like an organic body which, in the measure in which faith blossoms within her, brings charismas to maturity and requires ministries to help, to serve and to make such a renewal possible, since they are the means willed by God to make his Church grow constantly (Eph 4:11; I Cor 12). So we are seeing the charismas which make the complete Christ present; Christ the Apostle, the Prophet, the Deacon, the Pastor, the Teacher, faithful to the Father, united with his Church, compassionate towards all who suffer, etc. And these charismas appear in every community: in the presbyter, in the responsibles (for whom we have requested the diaconate), in the itinerant and local catechists, in the virgins, widows, married couples, etc).
The Spirit of the Way The primary objective aimed at in this Neocatechumenate or initiation to the faith is the formation of the community. The latter, at first, is very imperfect, for it is always conditioned by the adherence of the individual to the Word. Then, little by little, our own defects come to our aid, obliging us to constantly rethink our faith. Our inability to love others, that is, to accept what destroys us in them, namely their faults, raises a great question mark for us. To love begins to appear like the destruction of our self, that is, of what is our security. To love means to die, and our tragedy is that we do not want to die. To love the other when he is different from me will always mean a leap in the dark, it will mean to have overcome death. The second chapter of the letter to the Hebrews (Heb 2, 14f), says that, ' all his life man is enslaved to evil and the devil because of his fear of death: for this reason Jesus Christ has come `to destroy through death the lord of death, the devil, and to set free all those who had been held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death.' (Hebrews 2, 14f) If to love means really to transcend ourselves totally in the other, that is, to die to our self (and all of us are subjected to the devil during our lives because we are afraid of death), it is clear that if death has not been overcome in us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we cannot love. What then will the sign be that we have risen with Christ? A love over and above death, love in the dimension of the cross, love for the enemy, `as I have loved you.' (Jn 13:34-35) `By this love everyone will know that you are my disciples.' This is why it is necessary to be born from God, to receive through the Holy spirit the new life of Christ risen from the dead. `We know that we have passed out of death into life, and of this we can be sure because we love the brothers.' (1 John 3,14). Where are these communities born? Where are they born, these communities which make the Risen Christ present by radiating the love they have gratuitously received? The answer is: in the parish, which seems the most suitable place for the local Church to appear as the `sacrament of salvation', without creating a parallel Church, without destroying anything, gradually taking on the reality of the Church of today and the period of transition through which she is going.
The mission of the parish Today, most traditional Christians live their faith at a childish level as is clearly shown by the divorce between religion and life in them. Hence the absolute necessity for a serious process of conversion which takes place in our everyday experience. It is a time, guided by the Word of God and by celebrations of Penance and the Eucharist, and lived within the concrete framework of a community, to experience Christ the Saviour, to experience the Kingdom of God which is reaching out to us, and to experience the joy of peace. To arrive at this, it is necessary to give signs of faith in the surrounding situation, signs which make Christ present and credible, and signs which clearly show the man in the street that Christ loves him to the point of being ready to free him from his alienation, from his suffering, from death. `Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples.' ` Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world (the man in the street) may believe it was you who sent me.' The signs of faith call the parish to conversion. Through the love and unity of these communities the whole parish is called to conversion so that it can be seen that where these communities have been formed, the parish has been revolutionised in a positive way. The signs they create around them raise questions marks and as a result call many people who were far from the Church to enter similar communities in the parish. In this way, a new parochial structure has begun to appear; without destroying the existing one, it makes all brothers aware of the absolute need today for a deepening of the faith. It is the return to the community, to the people of God of the early Church: communities in which the signs of love in the dimension of the Cross and of perfect unity act as yeast, light, and salt, on the surrounding environment. Once again, the cry, `See how they love one another' arises among men, calling them to conversion.
How the Way begins When a parish priest wishes to start this Catechumenal Way in his parish, he contacts parishes in which Neocatechumenal Communities already exist. Once he is aware of what the way is about, and if he agrees to be involved in it himself, he asks for catechists to be sent to him. They undertake to begin the Neocatechumenate, and to guide it in communion with him. The catechists also speak to all the priests in the parish, presenting to them the necessity of undertaking a pastoral work of evangelisation in the parish, through a post-baptismal catechumenate. Then they meet the various parish groups. Finally, they issue an invitation to all the faithful during Sunday Mass. The team of catechists is made up of a priest who guarantees the orthodoxy and the ecclesiality of the announcement, a couple, and a young man, who make up a small community of evangelisation.
First stage: the Kerigma The first stage is the kerygma, the proclamation of salvation, which is developed by means of a direct and existential dialogue, which looks at the impact of Christianity on the lives of the people. The catecheses are based on a tripod upon which the whole catechumenate will be based: Word-Liturgy-Community.
The Precatechumenate Once the community has been formed, the second stage is started; the precatechumenate. This is a period of kenosis in which each of the brothers tests his faith by walking together with the others, also imperfect and sinners, in the newness of a concrete community which acts as a mirror, to show each one clearly his own reality, thus calling them to conversion. In this labour, the community needs a word to enlighten it about its reality and to help it. Thus it celebrates the Word of God once a week, on appropriate themes - water, lamb, bride etc.- as an initiation into the language of the bible. The Sunday Eucharist is celebrated on Saturday evenings.2 Once a month the sacrament of Penance is celebrated. On one Sunday every month there is a retreat to give everyone the opportunity to freely talk about their own experience of the Word, to say how much it has influenced their lives: at work, in the family, in sexual matters, in social relationships, in connection with money, etc. After about two years, the catechists who watched over the beginning of the community return, and in a three day retreat, prepare it for the first scrutiny for the passage to the catechumenate. In this scrutiny, in the presence of the bishop, the first part of their Baptism is put before the people, so that they can say `Amen' and so that the grace that this sacrament conferred on them may grow and work. Thus the door of the catechumenate is opened to them.
Second stage: the post-baptismal catechumenate The catechumenate consists of two periods. During the first one, the community perseveres with the Word, the Eucharist, and brotherly communion, experiencing the power of Christ, who leads the Neocatechumens to put God at the centre of their lives, gradually stripping themselves, but without effort, of all idols (money, career, affections), while they keep watch, like the virgins waiting for the bridegroom. After about another year, the catechists return to prepare the scrutiny for the final entry into the catechumenate, so that if the first scrutiny could be compared to a door opening, at the second scrutiny the door closes. The catechumens are now initiated by the catechists into deep and daily individual prayer, with the presentation of the psalms to them. Then, through the Traditio and Reditio Symboli, they discover how the Baptism that was once given to them by the Church makes them people who are sent, witnessing to their faith where they work, in their families, and above all by working in the parish in an apostolate made explicit in the announcement of the Gospel, two by two, in the houses of their neighbourhood, and in the work of parish catechesis, etc. At this stage of the Way, the members of the community become responsible for transmitting their faith to their children. So three kinds of meetings take place: one in the family with the participation of the children, another meeting is in the community, and finally there are meetings of all the parish communities for the great feasts, like the Passover Vigil. We have discovered that the greatest joy and the centre of our life is in the celebration of Easter, in a great vigil which lasts until the rising of the morning star. After this, the discovery of how baptism makes us children of God takes place through the rediscovery and the study of the Our Father in the context of deep and wonderful prayer in which we are taught to cry `Abba, Father!'
Third stage: election and the renewal of the baptismal promises The period of the post-baptismal catechumenate leads the Neocatechumens to simplicity, to make themselves small, to abandon themselves to the will of the Father. This will enable them - always guided by the catechists in close union with the parish priest - to pass, by means of this abandon, to a spirituality of praise and thanksgiving. They are then ready to start on the last stage of the way: election and the renewal of the baptismal promises. So they have passed through the three fundamental stages of Christian life: humility (precatechumenate), simplicity (post-baptismal catechumenate) and praise (election and the renewal of baptismal promises).
The Family of Nazareth: image of the Neocatechumenal Communities Nicodemus asks Jesus,`How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?' (John 3,4). This sentence illustrates the spirit of the Neocatechumenal Communities: to return to the womb of the church, to go back to our Mother, the Virgin, so that she may regenerate in us the seed that we carry within us of baptism, and make it to grow. We call this time of gestation and growth, the Neocatechumenate. Mary, the image of the Church and of every Christian, receives the announcement of a joyous good news: the Messiah will be born in you. After she has accepted these words the holy Spirit covers her with his shadow and begins the gestation of the new creature: Christ Jesus, who will gradually be formed until the day of his birth in Bethlehem. Annunciation, gestation, birth and hidden life in the little community of Nazareth where the child will grow until he reaches the age to undertake the mission that his Father has entrusted to him: these are the stages through which we ourselves wish to pass, convinced that, through them, the Church can be renewed, in order to give an answer to the new times and serve the modern world. Christ, who has been constituted by God life-giving spirit, the first-born of a new creation, makes his work of salvation accessible to the world in the Koinonia, in the Agape of a people resurrected by him in a Church, a community of men who love one another, because of the Spirit shed over them, that is, the Holy Spirit. The Neocatechumenate presents itself as a period of gestation, in the womb of the Church. In these people who, like Mary, say their `Amen' to the annunciation of the Saviour, the Word begins to generate a new creation, the work of the Holy Spirit. The Church is presented as a Mother who begets, gives birth, and brings up her children until they reach the stature of the new man of whom St Paul says, `It is no longer I who live, it is Christ who lives in me.' (Gal 2:20) And this community, in which Christ makes himself visible, lives in humility, simplicity and praise, like the Holy Family of Nazareth, aware that it has a task to carry out: to give Christ time to grow in it in order to carry out the mission entrusted to him by God, the mission of the Servant of Yahweh."''''
LETTER "Ogniqualvolta" OF HIS HOLINESS' POPE JOHN PAUL II TO BROTHER BISHOP PAUL JOSEF CORDES August 30 th 1990 ... ."I acknowledge the Neocatechumenal Way as an itinerary of Catholic formation, valid for our society and for our times.
It is therefore my wish that the Brothers in the Episcopate - together with their presbyters - value and support this work for the new evangelization so that it may be implemented according to the lines proposed by its initiators, in the spirit of service to the local Ordinary and in communion with him in the context of the unity of the local church and the universal Church."
'THIS WAY OF ADULT CHRISTIAN FORMATION IS AN ARM OF THE BODY OF CHRIST-THAT IS-THE CHURCH OF ROME SINCE IT HAS ITS STATUTES WHICH HAVE HAD THEIR FINAL APPROVAL,MEANING THAT ,LIKE THE FRANSISCANS OR BENEDICTINES,THEY ARE FULLY A PART OF OUR CHURCH OF ROME -AND IF ATTACKED IT IS AS IF THE ATTACKERS ARE TRYING TO DESOCRATE THE BODY OF CHRIST OUR LORD!!! SO THEREFORE THE APPROVAL OF THE STATUTES ARE NOW PERMANENT AND SET IN CONCRETE THAT THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL HAS APPROVED OF THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY AND THREE PONTIFFS HAVE SUPPORTED THIS WAY SINCE IT IS A WORK OF GOD-THE HOLY SPIRIT AND CANNOT BE DESTROYED BY ANY MAN WALKING ON THE EARTH.THESE THREE POPES BEING :HIS HOLINESS PAUL VI,HIS HOLINESS JOHN-PAUL THE GREAT ,AND OF COURSE,HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI!' DO NOT ATTACK GOD'S OWN WORK!!!!!!!!!!!—Preceding [[Wikipedia:--80.42.171.182 (talk) 21:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)Signatures|unsigned]] OLIVER STEPHENS comment added by 80.42.171.182 (talk) 21:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
External Links
The external links section should not contain "official links" only. If you want official links, go to the official website. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 13:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
NPOV (Neocatechumenals' POV)
This article has been hijacked to the point of rendering it worthless. It is disjointed, contradicts itself and gives the reader the impression that NC Way is in a state of disarray. Perhaps that was the objective? Reetex (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- "Hijacked", "worthless" "disjointed", "contradicts"... are your opinions. Everything is documented: please have a look at the cited sources. You are a new user (your first and only contribute to wikipedia were the above words) and already talk high about "balance" and "reader's impression"? Does this mean that you are going to do some vandal editing? Rpgon2 (talk) 15:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Documented? Not exactly. You cite to obscure foreign language sources that are virtually unverifiable independent of your own links. Your shenanigans are utterly laughable. I can't see how the NC Way folks let you get away with this. Yes, I am new... so what? Editing?! Don't worry I won't be editing because I wouldn't dare attempt to inform people about something I don't know much about. Perhaps you might try the same? Lastly, here are a few tips to the genuine contributors who edit this page. 1) get rid of the literature section altogether it provides absolutely nothing to the article because it is 100% foreign language cites. 2) stop all the nonsense about approval of the statutes... if they are approved, say so. If not, say that they haven't been approved. What's the big deal? The NC Way still has the tacit approval of the Pope, right? He hasn't excommunicated anybody has he? Whatever the status is say it once and don't mention it again because it only confuses the reader. The first time I read the recently edited page I thought "is there more than one set of statutes? Did some get approved did others not get approved?" Lastly, clean-up the footnotes. Way too much commentary and foreign language usage. Reetex (talk) 23:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- It seems you did not read this page. Read above: Most of the documentation is in Italian language. The letter by Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi (Jan 17, 2006) was written in Italian. The letter by Cardinal Arinze (Dec 1, 2005) was written in Italian. Interviews to cardinals Cipriani Thorne and Medina Estévez (April 2008) were in Italian. Most of the sources are in Italian language. Translating them is not a trivial work, but Italian-speaking contributors will continue to translate the relevant parts, or cite the official translations.
- I agree that the Literature section is almost useless. A translation of a few of those books is available in electronic format (HTML, PDF) in the cited sources. Neocatechumenals added books and books to make the reader of this article think: "well, the pro- books outnumber the con-".
- The large footnote section contains sources for everything stated in this page; you may have already noticed that Neocatechumenals edit the article to wipe out every criticism.
- Needless to say, if you state "tacit approval of the Pope", then you need to demonstrate it...
- Rpgon2 (talk) 09:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- I would not be so quick to judge others when you yourself only have just joined 2 days ago and as such are considered a new user yourself. The page was in a state of normalcy and you came and in fact did Hijack the page by including information which was placed there only for a single purpose, to discredit "The Way". The page is in fact in a state of disarray, everything seems to have been mushed together wherever there was space and gives it the appearance of a garbage dump, and I will not uphold such defamation, the page must be intellectually decent.
- Ncwfl (talk) 19:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well:
- you have been "so quick to judge" me and the data I added to the article
- who wants to "discredit the Way", only has to add some verifiable content
- in your opinion, the "normal" state of this article is the total absence of any reference to criticism, especially if documented
- you are a long time "NC Way article normalizer": your edit list is somewhat funny
- I'm reverting again your vandalism (and continuing to add content). Face the truth!
- Rpgon2 (talk) 21:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well:
- In order to not make this a reverting war which you seem to insistent on, I will be making section my section changes in order to facilitate the review.
Ncwfl (talk) 22:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
You are absolutley correct. This is my opinion (I prefer argument). But I posted this in the “Talk” section of the article… was that wrong? If so, I apologize. However, your use of the words "opinion" and "fact" appear self-serving and do not comport with the scholarly definition of the words. I will illustrate: "Mr. Blackacre was born on June 30, 1901" is a fact. "Mr. Blackacre does not follow the doctrinal teachinigs of the Roman Catholic Church" is an opinion. Unless, suported by a reliable source like the Holy See. Moreover, citing to questionable authorities that share the opinion does not make an "opinion" a "fact". If that were the case then two opinions would equal a fact. If I find a website that agrees that the NC Way article was hijacked, worthless, disjointed and/or contradicts itself does that make it a fact? Again, the Wiki position could provide some guidance. A reliable source is one "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". The sources provided on this page (mostly con but sometimes the pro) do not meet the standard. Also, they do not meet the rigid Wiki standards of verifiability and should therefore be removed.
- Maybe you did not see that for every fact, a reliable source was cited (see above in this page).
- If something has been described by both pro and con sources, then you have no reason to erase it from the article.
- If something "con" has been described by a "pro" source (example: the telenovela of the Statute) or, vice versa, something "pro" by a "con" source, then you may assume that it is safe to cite it.
- You should not erase data like: "Mr. Blackacre, as said by Mr. Yellowacre, does not follow..." -- Rpgon2 (talk) 21:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
In the interst of full-disclosure, I am not in the NC Way but I have been invited to some “talks”. I have never attended but I remain amenable to attending. I read this page about six months ago to find out more and found it a bit "flowery" and only slightly skewed. I agree that it was in need of a bit of revision because the NC Way certainly has detractors and people should know that too. However, the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction. Currently, the article is replete with commentary from sources that are fatally biased against the NC Way. In short, the article is not balanced.
- Please, document what and why is not balanced. Placing an "NPOV" tag without explaining, is not that fair.
I revisited the page a few days ago because I returned from a trip to see the Pope in Washington, D.C. where I met people from the NC Way. They were energetic and greeted the Pope with zeal and fervor. It was a very memorable expereience and I was curious to see if there were any new developments. The page was decimated. What a shame.Reetex (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's hard to have an exact measurement of zeal and fervor. Applauding Benedict XVI does not automagically mean rigorous doctrines and liturgies. Rpgon2 (talk) 21:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Correcting NPOV (Neocatechumenals' POV)
It seems that a number of clones of User:Ncwfl appeared to wipe out all of Neocatechumenal propaganda.
- What proof do you have of this? I made mistake and forgot to log in on 5 edits, was not using my own computer at the time. I hope you don't usually function in such an incorrect manner. Primarily due to the fact that it is illogical for a supporter of the way to remove positive things of the way..
Notes about the article:
- «zeal» and «fervor» do not change any of the cited sources
- «biased against the NC» neither means «false», nor «irrelevant», nor «missing fact-checking», nor «inaccurate»
- if you have a look at the article history, the «war» appears coming only from Neocatechumenal vandals.
- A war is undertaken by two sides, You have most graciously chosen the side which throws any sort of muck it finds.
- "Muck"? Why are you calling "muck" documented facts? Didn't you read the footnotes?
- A war is undertaken by two sides, You have most graciously chosen the side which throws any sort of muck it finds.
Rouco Varela photo
I moved Cardinal Rouco Varela photo in the World Youth Day article.
- Seems highly unnecessary to have removed it, seems to me as if you are trying to hide the fact that he supports the way. and without it the page seems a bit bland, since it it relevant to the WYD and the meeting kiko had in the most recent one it intend on making sure it stays.
- Being "relevant to the WYD", that photo should stay in the WYD article page.
- You think that Rouco Varela photo means that he supports the NC Way. But you did not explain why, neither you did explain how. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 19:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Again, Neocatechumenal User:Ncwfl inserted it again. Rpgon2 (talk) 11:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
- You must not be aware of where the image was in fact taken if you insist on removing it. This being said it would also be inappropriate for it to be in the WYD page because it in fact did not occur at the WYD but the day after at the meeting with kiko. The Cardinal was at the meeting in Bonn the day after the WYD at the meeting that was set up by the Neocatechumenal Way so it is 100% relevant. Ncwfl (talk) 12:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Are you really this blind or are you just pretending to be ignorant? Why would a cardinal attend a neocatechumenal meeting if he did not support it? For kicks? To spend a day in the sun because he needs a tan? Obviously not. A cardinal does not waste his time unless it is something he cares about, it is natural human psychology, and you pay attention to things you care about, so he does in fact care. I doubt you would be able to prove otherwise. Ncwfl (talk) 14:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- My original attempt was to add some sort color to the page, it is quite bland. So i found a picture that was snapped at the NCW meeting after the WYD in Bonn, found it appropriate for the page seeing it was a NCW sponsored event so i placed it in the page. I am uncertain of your view of the photo.. Who cares if he supports the way of not. If we look at the facts then we see that he was in fact at that meeting which is enough.Ncwfl (talk) 20:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- There are many ways to "add some sort color". You previously stated that Rouco Varela "supports" the NCW, without further documentation. If we were to add a photo of every Cardinal who had a talk with NCW members, then this article will become a collection of photos.
- Also, keep in mind that other cardinals (for example, Medina Estévez and Cipriani Thorne), may change their mind about the NCW, and express criticism (as happened with Medina Estévez and Cipriani Thorne). So, are or aren't "relevant" their photos? Will they add some sort color to the page, or won't they? -- Rpgon2 (talk) 09:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Redemptoris Mater Seminaries - that is: Kiko's Seminaries
Why many vocations coming from Neocatechumenal Way need Redemptoris Mater Seminaries instead of "standard" seminaries? (diocesan ones and missionary ones). R.M. seminaries follow Kiko guidelines both in liturgical and doctrinal issues. There is no other reason to create those so-called "Neocatechumenal Seminaries" instead of making NC priestly vocations enter diocesan seminaries.
Corollary: it is thus correct to say "Neocatechumenal priests" for vocations entering R.M. seminaries.
- On this topic lies not one ounce of truth. Most of the priests ordained by the seminaries work within the diocese, others have been given permission by their ordinary (and only their ordinary) to serve the needs of the mission. The RM seminaries are a necessity because the standard ones are found lacking in many respects, (Eg. priests that after a few years lose faith or become discouraged by a difficult parish, those that leave the priesthood, need I continue?). Under no circumstance can the priests be instructed in what you call the "kiko doctrine", this because all of the religious studies are done at the university in which the seminarians attend.
- Your equivocal assumptions are not supported by facts.
- standard seminaries are "found lacking...": found by you? Then, if they are "lacking", why Roman Catholic Bishops do not close them? Are they more stupid than you?
- "after a few years lose faith": how can you demonstrate that this will never happen to NC priests? how can you demonstrate that "losing faith" is only due to "non-RM seminar" formation?
- "religious studies at the university": are you saying that RM seminaries are no more than hotels?
- if the RM seminaries are so "standard", why only Neocatechumenals priestly vocations enter them?
- "serve the needs of the mission": you should say "of the Neocatechumenal missions". There is a large number of missionary communities, seminars, organisations; why Kiko needed to create another one?
- No wonder that everyone calls them "Neocatechumenal seminaries". No wonder that everyone knows that seminarians of the RM are instructed in "Kiko doctrine and liturgy". No wonder that NC priests are called "volatile priests" (they follow Kiko words, not their Ordinary). Rpgon2 (talk) 21:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Your equivocal assumptions are not supported by facts.
Redemptoris Mater Seminaries (RMS) are actually Neocatechumenal Seminaries, because they only accept priestly vocations coming from Neocatechumenal Way (NCW).
RMS were started by Kiko and Carmen for NCW priestly vocations. Why they needed "special" (RMS) seminaries? If you want to help "normal" seminaries, then you do not need to create new seminaries.
The only reason to create RMS is that Kiko and Carmen think that diocesan and missionary seminaries are not good for NCW priestly vocations. If they were good, then all NCW vocations would have entered normal seminaries and religious communities.
Since they were started by Kiko and Carmen, then RMS follow NCW guidelines. If this was not the case, then NCW priestly vocations have no reason to prefer a RMS instead of a normal seminary.
Thus, priests coming from RMS are more "Neocatechumenal-oriented" than NCW priests coming from normal seminaries. This means that RMS priests will most likefully support NCW communities.
Official statements describe RMS as "international, missionary, diocesan" seminaries: while this does not formally contradict the above notes, what attitude will have NCW priests coming from RMS towards anything that does not follow NCW guidelines?
Finally, RMS priests have often been cause of divisions and sect-like behaviour, as stated -for example- by Japan Bishop Conference and Australian people (already cited in footnotes).
Redemptoris Mater Seminaries, a summary
- RMS are neocatechumenal seminaries
- RMS began because Kiko and Carmen do not trust diocesan seminaries
- RMS follow NCW guidelines instead of diocesan
- RMS priests are not willing to waste their time on non-Neocatechumenal affairs
- RMS priests cause the same problems that NCW causes worldwide.
- The Japanese Bishops Conference stated even more than that; you just need to read the sources. (Japanese Bishops Meet Pope For Second Time In Five Months; Sunday Catholic News of the Week). -- Rpgon2 (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Statute: a partial approval
If "partial" is unacceptable to Neocatechumenal propaganda, then -please- find another adjective summarizing that:
- the Statute was ad experimentum and silently expired
- the Statute was born formally incomplete, and expired formally incomplete, because the Catechetical Directory (to which the Statute referred) was never published
- Why is there are need to describe the statues, if the reader chooses to know of the statues they will find all of your information regarding the partial approval which you so blatantly pasted wherever you managed to find space. The title which you have written includes a negative conotation, in my attempt to balance the pages PoV I removed it.
- Again, you think it is negative to call "partial" a "partial approvation".
Recent Official Statements
The events should be described without censoring the parts that do not comply with Neocatechumenal Propaganda Standards. Examples:
- «Certain Norms»: did Benedict XVI talk about "certain norms imparted to you in my name", or didn't?
- «Benedict XVI sends Neocatechumenal Families»: should a wikipedia article support such a misinterpretation?
- «Very Content with the Norms»: did Kiko and Carmen and Pezzi wrote that, or didn't they?
- «Many Complications Still Exist Today»: did Benedict XVI say it, or didn't?
- «Reprimand» from Bishops: why relevant third party comments are not allowed? (and who are you, to tell us that those Bishops did not actually send a «reprimand»?)
- Who are you to say the bishops were sending a reprimand? Who is Magister to say so? It is not written, there is no hinting of any sort that it is a reprimand within the actual text of the letter. Also there is no need to put a quote in every title, especially ones chosen for a specific purpose. Do not claim that BXIV sending the families is misinterpretation, you have filled the article with it, twisting every word phrase and syllable against "The Way" in order to discredit it, you hide under the shield of "informing" the public, but to what end. What is it you wish to accomplish?
- It was not me to call «reprimand» that «reprimand». It was a reliable source (cited in footnote), that you did not read. You call "twisting" what actually was "citing".
Is this a Neocatechumenal propaganda article, or important details (Benedict XVI and Kiko words) are allowed?
This is getting to be ridiculous
Why can we not respectfully conduct ourselves on this article? Everytime I come on here, I find someone insultingly trying to discredit the Way. I am not saying that the Way is perfect. Nothing is perfect. But, it seems to me, that a large portion of the sources cited in this article are biased against the Way. My point here is that I find that discussions and debates that we should be having in the talk page are, more often than not, landing smack in the middle of this article. The article as it stands is vehemently against the Neocatechumenal Way and indulges far too much in biased opinion and Anti-Neocatechumenal Propaganda. I urge all contributors to this article to 1) engage in respectful debates and 2) stop citing sources that are clearly biased and start relying on more official sources. If you are going to cite websites, please be sure to translate them accurately before using them. It is unacceptable to spread lies and rumors based on opinions rather than grounding yourself in facts. I want to see a balanced and respectful treatment of the Way, not some rumor filled, hate-mongering, Anti-Neocatechumenal Propaganda page.
I stand by both Ncwfl and Reetex on the status of this article. It is anti-Neocatechumenal, far too extreme in its criticisms to be of any objective use, and it is disjointed, and in need of balance.
As Reetex mentioned, the Neocatechumenal Way was present in large numbers to welcome the Pope in Washington D.C. and in New York City. There is nothing in this article that refers to that in the very least. I think that a balanced article should acknowledge this fact (which was also covered by the media: Fox News, CNN, ABC, etc.)
- Neocatechumenalspeak:
- "insultingly trying to discredit the Way": documenting facts like "Cardinals criticised the Way", or "Benedict XVI said «Many Complications Still Exist»" all with appropriate reliable source
- "biased against the way": reliable sources that do not comply with NC Way propaganda standards
- "rumor filled, hate-mongering": news filled, truth mongering (note: a pro-NC source said that Kiko was spreading rumors about the "final approval": is this the reason why you wrote "rumor filled, hate-mongering"?)
- "need of balance": censoring everything that is not compatible with the NC Way propaganda.
- NC Way members hate to read truth about the Way, especially when documented.
- But this is a wikipedia article, not NC propaganda page.
- Please read this entire page from the beginning, before adding other useless opinions. Rpgon2 (talk) 21:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The Need For Respect
I will reiterate what I have said before: We need to engage in a more respectful dialogue throughout this article. Stating that anyone's opinion is "useless" goes against that idea. And I have read this article from beginning to end, and I find that it does not cite very many sources that praise the Way. What is on here are sources that expcitly criticize the Neocatechumenal Way. There are very few sources here that give a more positive perspective.
I don't see how anything that you are doing here is different from what you label as "NC Propaganda." The case can be made that you are making this article, which is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia article which must include both negative and positive perspectives, into an article filled with sources and opinions that support Anti-Neocatechumenal Way propaganda.
We need to respectfully dialogue with each other. Reliable sources also include Fox News, ABC, and the New York Times. I direct your attention to the following article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/us/14pilgrim.html?_r=4&th=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=th&adxnnlx=1208196052-0QxgXzmuqZ6DMjih6RKWTg&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin User:ChristeVita
- Neocatechumenals, please note:
- this is not a Pro-Neocatechumenal Propaganda article. You shall not hide the truth.
- And you shall not misrepresent it.
- Who does misrepresent it? You wipe out Benedict XVI words. Is Benedict XVI "misrepresenting" the Way?
- And you shall not misrepresent it.
- It is OK to wipe out totally irrelevant information; but if you erase the documented facts that NC Propaganda wants to hide, then it means that...
- Example: "Pope Meets Roman Clergy". But he always meets Roman Clergy: then, why is that a noticeable event? It is, because when asked about the NC Way, he answered: «Many Complications Still Exist Today».
- Have you even read the article? He was not asked about the NCW, he was asked about 'on how he should fit into them (movements) to develop a real ministry of unity in the universal Church'. During his lengthy response he briefly mentioned The Way, and your picking of certain lines are obviously with malicious intent, if not you could have simply chosen improved the relationship between the Pastor and the Way. Now the reason i did not highlight any certain part of the quote, in order avoid emphasizing any POV of my own, but rather included the complete section.
- Benedict XVI talked about the NC Way and said «Many Complications Still Exist Today»: is this "emphasizing a POV"? If you remove NCW-relevant information, then the entire paragraph makes no sense.
- Have you even read the article? He was not asked about the NCW, he was asked about 'on how he should fit into them (movements) to develop a real ministry of unity in the universal Church'. During his lengthy response he briefly mentioned The Way, and your picking of certain lines are obviously with malicious intent, if not you could have simply chosen improved the relationship between the Pastor and the Way. Now the reason i did not highlight any certain part of the quote, in order avoid emphasizing any POV of my own, but rather included the complete section.
- If you wipe out that "Many Complications" comment, then you are stressing that either the event or the comment was irrelevant. That is: you ware transforming it into NC Propaganda.
- Neocatechumenal propaganda, always in the "we're praised! we're approved!" style, feels the urge to hide any «Many Complications Still Exist Today» (even when it was Benedict XVI to assert it). Then, in the morning erases it from the title, and in the evening erases it from the body. Exaggeration? Have a look at what it was one year ago and what it was a few days ago, and browse its history searching for massive censorship by neocatechumenal users...
- A few days ago, this article was a Fully Neocatechumenalised page. There was a description of all relevant Recent Developments... stripped by every relevant detail. Example: a reader would ask himself why Bishops of the Holy Land need to write a letter to the NC Way to praise it... until discovering its true contents (that were not shown in this wikipedia article), and some reliable sources correctly describing it as a «reprimand to the NC Way».
- It was not a praise, if read the letter one of the first things it mentions is that they sent the letter "in the context of the common pastoral plan for this year," in other words to relay their wishes onto the NCW, not to praise it, and not to reprimand it. It contents were never hidden, they have always been there...
- A respectful dialogue cannot be based on hiding the truth. Many sources praise the Way, but all that praising cannot make us forget that Benedict XVI said «Many Complications etc», or that Bishops of the Holy Land said «avoid making yourselves a group apart», or that Kiko said many times «we're approved» and no approval came out yet, or that Carmen defined Kiko as a «cursillist bigot claiming to have had a Marian apparition» in 1964 (incidentally ignored by Church authority).
- NY Times reports about a NC pilgrimage. Good. But does this wipe out Benedict XVI speech about «Certain Norms»? Does it wipe out the «partial» approvation of the expired Statutes? Does this wipe out the «disrespectful» way to receive the Communion by the leader of the NC Way? Does this mean that only Neocatechumenals are doing pilgrimages?
- Rpgon2 (talk) 21:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Overestimated NC Statistics (document them, or erase them!)
The NC Statistics section shows a total of more than 44,000 communities (22400+ in Europe, 20200+ in Americas, 130 in Middle East, 1279 other), while in the heading the total number in the world is suggested to be some 20,000. That "44,000" is surely overestimated. And also that "20,000" could be overestimated (round numbers always raise some suspicion).
As of April 30, 2008, in Italy, the Way is present in 997 Italian parishes. That should mean some 10 communities per parish to get that "10,000" figure out. This is, without any doubt, largely overestimated: for every parish hosting 1-2 communities only, we'd expect another one hosting 18-19 communities )or -example- other three hosting 6 communities). But in Italy the number of parishes hosting more than 10-12 communities is less than a dozen (actually, parishes hosting more than 4-5 communities are quite rare), while the vast majority of the parishes only hosts one NC community.
Until a formal verification, it is safe to assume that in Italy NC communities hardly exceed 2000-2500 (and we did not take into account the large number of communities which join together because of the small amount of members).
That said, if no reliable source appears to correct the figures in the NC Way Statistics section, then the entire section should be erased.
Overestimates are a known specialty of Kiko Argüello, as pointed out even by pro-Neocatechumenal news websites. Rpgon2 (talk) 09:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Are you from Italy? Take my home place Scandicci for example. There are TWO DOZEN communities per parish.
From Texas to East Coast, Pilgrimage to See the Pope NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE
By RALPH BLUMENTHAL Published: April 14, 2008
SPRING, Tex. — The Texas sky was still dark and studded with stars Sunday when Ricky Pequeño Jr., rubbing sleep from his eyes, stumbled downstairs to add his bag to a pile of backpacks, sleeping bags, food cooler, baseball glove and ball, football, drum and guitar — everything a family of ardent Roman Catholics might need for a 1,600-mile pilgrimage to see the pope.They would end up in a borrowed van with a hastily added trailer and, with little spare cash and no overnight reservations, set off. “It’s up to God in the end,” said Ricky’s father, Ricardo Sr., 44, a machinist who grew up in Mexico, before driving off for a final blessing from their pastor.
As Pope Benedict XVI prepared for his first papal voyage to America, Mr. Pequeño and his family — his Mexican-born wife, Maria, 40; Ricky, 17; Andrea, 11; Rachel, 8; and Emily, 3 — and 14 neighbors were leaving from this blue-collar suburb north of Houston in two packed vans, headed for Washington and New York and, they hoped, at least a glimpse of the pontiff.
“We don’t know if we’ll ever see Benedict up close,” said Rosalind Alvarez, a fellow passenger. But Ms. Alvarez added, “Somehow the word he says is going to reach us.”
Only Ricky had a prized ticket — two, in fact — to enter Nationals Park in Washington, where the pope is to celebrate Mass on Thursday. They were gifts from his pastor, the Rev. Miguel Solorzano of St. Charles Borromeo Church in Houston, who had managed to get 11 from his bishop, although he had asked for 100.
Ricky had once voiced an interest in the priesthood, and Father Solorzano said he wanted to encourage the boy. Ricky ended up inviting a friend, a girl. “He’s young,” the priest said, laughing.
With the church struggling to stem an erosion of faith in the face of secularism and scandal, the fast-growing Hispanic population of Texas and the Southwest has long been a major bulwark of Roman Catholicism in America — and an avid constituency for Pope Benedict’s visit.
The Pequeños and their fellow pilgrims are a particularly ardent band. They are followers of the Neocatechumenal Way, a communitarian church movement, founded in Spain in the 1960s and accepted by the Vatican, that emphasizes a return to early Christian roots, evangelism, intense religious practice and sacrifice.
The Pequeños’ house is filled with Bibles and Christian images. Over the fireplace hangs a copy of an icon by the Spanish painter Francisco (Kiko) Argüello, who co-founded the movement.
Before they joined, Mr. Pequeño said, “we would just go to church for Sundays and holidays.” Now they go several times a week, he said, and often evangelize door to door, sometimes playing music.
“We use a lot of instruments,” added Ricky, who plays the drum. “The devil uses a lot of noise, and we fight against the devil, also with a lot of noise.”
The family credits their faith for helping them through many crises. Mr. and Mrs. Pequeño, who migrated to the United States from Mexico and became citizens, said their marriage had undergone strains. Mr. Pequeño said he complained about his wife but learned through prayer that “the way to change my wife is me.” He said they were also distraught when a medical condition prevented his wife from bearing more children. They prayed over it, he said, and quickly learned of a 2-year-old girl needing adoption. They happily took in the child, Emily.
Mr. Pequeño earns about $45,000 a year making couplings for oil-drilling tools. Mrs. Pequeño studied cosmetology and hopes to get a license soon.
The family, then living in a poor neighborhood in the Greenspoint section of Houston, was traumatized in 2005 when Ricky fell in with a gang, began committing petty crimes and vandalism, and was kicked out of school. (He said he had no police record.) Comrades, he said, savagely turned on him, forcing the family to flee for safety and often change addresses before settling in Spring two months ago.
“That’s when I started getting into the church a lot,” said Ricky, who now expresses contrition.
A junior in high school — he lost a year — he said he had considered becoming a priest but now feels attracted to a career in law enforcement, perhaps with the F.B.I. “I like solving crimes, things of that nature,” he said.
Father Solorzano said he knew of Ricky’s problems and credited God’s workings.
This is not the Pequeños’ first trip to see Pope Benedict. In 2005, leaving the younger children with a relative, Ricky and his parents spent almost $5,000 to travel with a group to World Youth Day in Cologne, Germany, attended by the pope, although they were too far away to see him. The family raised money for the trip by holding garage sales and other fund-raisers. In Europe, they detoured to Amsterdam, where they say they proselytized among prostitutes and drug addicts, and visited a former German concentration camp.
This pilgrimage — in showery April, like Chaucer’s to Canterbury — will be cheaper, although the Pequeños figure it should cost about $1,000 in gas alone, which the travelers will split. The pilgrims, who hope to make side trips to Christian shrines like the tomb of St. John Neumann in Philadelphia, expected to lodge free with other Neocatechumenal followers but planned to stay in a motel Sunday in Tennessee.
Early Sunday, as the pile of luggage by their door grew to alarming proportions, Mrs. Pequeño carried a still-sleeping Emily to the family’s Chevrolet Suburban and strapped her in. Ricky retrieved sports equipment his mother had removed from the pile and restored it.
“We can get bored,” he said.
Andrea, who had been wearing a jokey T-shirt reading “Doesn’t Play Well With Others,” exchanged it for one reading simply, “Benedict XVI.”
The sun was coming up.
“Ricardo!” Mrs. Pequeño shouted to her husband. “Vamanos!”
They set off to a rendezvous point at St. Charles Borromeo Church, where the Pequeños and their neighbors swapped vehicles. Mr. Pequeño took over a 12-person van for six passengers plus his family; someone else would drive his S.U.V., packed with eight. But the supplies overflowed the van. Someone was sent to pick up a trailer.
Father Solorzano finished Mass and came out to bless the pilgrims. He was also going to Washington, to concelebrate Mass with the pope. But he planned to go by plane.
He sprinkled holy water on the bowed heads. “Bless them O Lord,” he said, “as they begin this journey.”
User ChristeVita —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristeVita (talk • contribs) 21:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Neocatechumenal Way Saying "Yes" to Europe
A positive view (from Zenit) of the labors of the Neocatechumenal Way in Europe:
http://www.zenit.org/article-22170?l=english —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristeVita (talk • contribs) 19:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
A Crucial Set of Questions
I am going to pose the following questions and I would appreciate honest answers. I am speaking mainly to those individuals who focus either on criticizing the Way or highlighting the negative aspects of the Neocatechumenal Way. All I am saying, is that in your zeal to stress negative criticisms of the Way, you seem to be overlooking the positive good it does within the Roman Catholic Church.
Have any of you attended an entire Catechesis? Have any of you ever walked in a community? Gone to a convivance? A Wednesday Word celebration? A Eucharist on Saturday? Have any of you gone to the lengthy Easter Vigil (from Saturday night to Sunday morning)? Have any of you been in a Redemptoris Mater seminary? Have any of you conversed with a seminarian who has studied at a Redemptoris Mater seminary? Have any of you shared a meal during an Agape? In short, have any of you experienced, first-hand, the totality of the Neocatechumenal Way?
- Please note: this is wikipedia. Our lives and our opinions are not relevant.
- Please note: "experiencing" the NC Way is not needed. You do not need to try LSD in order to know what it actually is, how does it work, and every positive (?) and negative aspect.
- Please note: it was not me to criticize the Way, it was a (rather large) number of Roman Catholic Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Theologians, and former NCW members. Read the sources, face the truth.
- Please note: even if wikipedia highlights negative aspects of the NCW, you still are able to enjoy the NCW. Wikipedia does not need NC Propaganda.
- Please note: when you Neocatechumenals edit this article, you wipe out every non-praising aspect, even the biggest ones, even Benedict XVI remarks. But this is wikipedia, this is not the Official Neocatechumenal Propaganda Page.
- If you keep avoiding discussions and posing non-relevant questions, then the nNPOV tag is not needed.
- Rpgon2 (talk) 23:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Respect
I reiterate the point I have made before...there needs to be respect in this article. There needs to be a balanced perspective and right now there isn't one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristeVita (talk • contribs) 01:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree: User:Ncwfl should respect the work of other contributors. Erasing documented sources and verifiable content is vandalism.
- Please note that "balanced perspective" does not mean "hide the truth, to have Neocats stop whining". Rpgon2 (talk) 11:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- I was following the suggestion from Reetex, a much less biased user than myself or you Rpgon2. I removed very little actual content, I incorperated many of the recent developments sections (some of which are not so recent) into the text of the article, removed most repetition, and simplified the notes (removing extreamly long blocks of text, italian lines), and changed a few spelling mistakes. I undersand i was wrong to have done the edit in one solid peice, i should have done it section by section to allow for easier review.
- Ncwfl (talk) 14:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting: "A Much Less Biased User" asks you to erase anything that does not comply with NC Propaganda guidelines.
- Interesting: "I Removed Very Little Actual Content" - that is, you removed half of the article (and you did it every time)
- You think that wikipedia is the right place for NC Way Propaganda. You contribute only by erasing what you do not like. Please stop your vandalism. Rpgon2 (talk) 15:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Good, the page is better.
Here are a a few more suggestions stop using <<quote>> in the US the common practice is "quote".
- This is "en.wikipedia" - not "us.wikipedia" for US users.
Rpgon2 isn't going to like this suggestion but the following sources are blantantly biased, outdated or unverifiabale. Zoffoli, Don Elio Marighetto and Alterinfo. For example, Zoffoli has been dead for 12 years. He wrote, as far as I can tell since no English translation was available, six books critical of the NC Way. The Pope approved the Statutes in 2002, right? What can we infer? The Holy See considered Zoffoli criticisms and the Statutes that were approved were free of heretical statements, correct? We still believe in doctrine of Papal infallibility, correct? Therefore, why cite to his work? If I find a priest that thinks the world is flat I should be able to cite to him too? The Marighetto source is totally unverifiable. The ISBN comes back bogus and googling only takes you to blantatly biased websites in languages readers won't understand. Alterinfo? The English page's newest article is 12 years old.
- "Old" does not mean "false".
- The Statute do not fall under "Papal infallibility" because it was approved by a Pontifical Council (uh, did you actually not know?)
- The Statute expired in 2007; it has thus historical interest only.
- Reliability of the sources was already demonstrated at the beginning of this page. Those sources are all used in Italian wikipedia page. You blame them because they do not comply with your own opinion.
- You Neocatechumenals call "blatantly biased, outdated, unverifiable" everything does not comply with NC Propaganda.
- Rpgon2 (talk) 10:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Lastly, my humble research finds a deep resentment by a small but vocal group of detractors. However, most of the criticisms are old. The only legitimate criticism I can find is the Cardinal Arinze letter controversy. That should stay in and an effort should be made to put this in context. Everything else sounds like territorial squabbles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reetex (talk • contribs) 03:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- You call "deep resentment" and "small group of detractors" people reporting NC-related news that do not comply with NC Propaganda statements.
- The "small but vocal group of detractors" contains a rather large number of Cardinals and Bishops and Theologians... and even Benedict XVI.
- And the controversies are related to liturgy and doctrine, not to "territorial squabbles".
- Again, you try to minimize everything that is not a praise of the NCW.
- Rpgon2 (talk) 10:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
One other thing: I found a week-long series in the NY Times about a family in the NC Way from Houston, Texas here are the links. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/us/14pilgrim.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/us/nationalspecial2/16pilgrim.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/us/nationalspecial2/18pilgrim.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/us/nationalspecial2/21pilgrims.html
Could this be worked into the article?Reetex (talk) 19:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed all of the quotation marks to the appropriate. I have been trying to be as careful as possible in my removal of certain content without validated support. If you are indeed suggesting removing the sources and the information tied to it I am certainly willing to put the effort into weeding it out, or just deleting the entire section and start again from scratch.
- I'm finding it difficult in trying to incorporate the NY times articles into an appropriate section, if you can think of a certain context to include the information i am also willing to work with it.
God Loves You
That's all I have to say.
ChristeVita (talk) 12:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I second that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.182.219 (talk) 10:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe you do not understand how much that assertion was useful to enhance the article about NC Way on wikipedia. Rpgon2 (talk) 23:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Ratzinger Report: An Exclusive Interview on the State of the Church by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
- Note: This is a newbie posting a reference that could ease the disarray. The statement that Cardinal Ratzinger said over 20 years ago seems to still apply. :)
See chapter, "A Council to be Rediscovered", page 43:
... 'the Church of today does not need any new reformers. The Church needs new saints'."
So you don't see, I insist, any other positive signs -- except for those that come from the "negative" -- in this period of Church history?
"Of course I see them. I will not speak here of the momentum of the young churches (like that of South Korea) or of the vitality of the persecuted churches because that cannot immediately be traced back to Vatican II. Just as the crisis phenomena cannot be directly attributed to it. What is hopeful at the level of the universal Church -- and that is happening right in the heart of the crisis of the Church in the Western World -- is the rise of new movements which nobody had planned and which nobody has called into being, but which have sprung spontaneously from the inner vitality of the faith itself. What is manifested in them -- albeit subdued -- is something like a pentacostal season in the Church. I am thinking, say, of the charismatic movement, of the Cursillos, of the movement of the Focolare, of the neo-catechemenal communities, of Communion and Liberation, etc. Certainly all these movements also give rise to some problems. They also entail greater or lesser dangers. But that happens with all living beings. I am now, to an increasing degree, meeting groups of young people in whom there is a wholehearted adhesion to the whole faith of the Church, young people who want to live this faith fully and who bear in themselves a great missionary e'lan. The intense life of prayer present in these movements does not imply a flight into interiority or a withdrawl into the private sphere, but simply a full and undivided catholicity. The joy of faith that one senses here has something contagious about it. Here new vocations...
- Right.
- Then-Cardinal Ratzinger's statement ("NC Communities... also give rise to some problems") seem to still apply. For example, see the letter by Francis Cardinal Arinze about the "decisions of the Holy Father" severely restricting the liturgies of the NC Way. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 23:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you add or change emphasis of the original source for a neutral article? I think Pope Benedict XVI expresses a fairly balanced point of view. Problems, yes. A vitality of faith, yes. Insurmountable, no. Hope is a virtue. Love requires patience. It takes time to work things out, especially dealing with an imperfect rabble of people such that Christians are. When Moses went to Mount Sinai, he was absent for over a month before the 10 commandments were set in stone. I certainly can wait a while before Pope Benedict XVI sets things in stone. If it's a situation that has become grave, I'm sure we'll hear from Pope Benedict XVI at WYD in Sydney with the Holy Spirit being the theme for the whole thing. Things to consider for further resources: RCIA and the catechumenate throughout the history and Teaching of the church; the origin, history and processes of valid catholic rites, etc. This is a problem that's too big for me, but no one is more suited than the blessed popes we've had in current and recent history. --203.59.111.28 (talk) 05:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC) (newbie)
From Zenit: http://zenit.org/article-22595?l=english
Regarding Church-movement relationship, Cardinal Rylko stated, the current Pope has given priority to the Pauline rule "do not snuff out the charisms," and as a second criteria, "the Church is one." He synthesizes both guidelines in the words "gratitude, patience and also acceptance of the sufferings that are inevitable," the cardinal noted.
Following the magisterium of Benedict XVI, the pontifical council president affirmed, "It is not enough to welcome a movement; it is necessary to follow it with due pastoral solicitude." This task, he acknowledged, implies "an adequate knowledge of the unique realities present and active in the diocese."
In this task, the cardinal said, the pastors can count on the Pontifical Council for Laity, "a common house for the ecclesial movement and the new communities, and a direct expression, regarding these [groups], of the paternity of the Successor of Peter."
The Pope is moving slowly and deliberately... would we expect anything different? Interpreting the pace of movement as tacit rejection seems premature. "Some problems" doesn't mean "heresey" as has been suggested by some on this talk page. Reetex (talk) 14:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- You should not jump to conclusions about future events.
- Past events - and, specifically, the documented ones - show that the NC Way does not have any formal approval.
- A partial approval (the Statutes) expired 11 months ago without being completed with the Catechetical Directory.
- Kiko always says "we're approved! we're approved!", but no approval came out yet. Instead, criticism by Bishops and Cardinals continues.
- And most of them talk about "heresy", "liturgical abuses", "disobedience".
- Everything is documented.
- But you Neocatechumenals only want to read praises to the NC Way.
- Face the truth!
- -- Rpgon2 (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
After the prayer of the Regina Caeli, Pope Benedict XVI (4 May 2008)
I greet with joy the English-speaking pilgrims who have come here today, particularly the members of the Neo-Catechumenal Way from Mumbai in India. In the course of this week we will pray with the whole Church for the coming of the Holy Spirit. May all of you receive abundant blessings of peace and joy.
I wish you all a good Sunday.
- That's funny.
- A few lines above, you blamed "changing emphasis on the original source". And now you change emphasis on another original source.
- Also, you should explain why is that important a "greeting" to "pilgrims" of the NC Way: didn't you know that the Pope always greets groups and pilgrims coming in Rome?
- Rpgon2 (talk) 10:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Merely providing a reference or recent event. I'm not making statement about it. I'm not blaming anyone. When citing sources, I thought it's practice in wikipedia to just provide a reference and not a commentary of it. - --203.59.115.135 (talk) 02:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Ncwfl keeps censoring the article
- The term neocatechumenate, in the NC Way, is related to the doctrines taught by Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernández. - This is true, because the NC Way does not use the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but Kiko's doctrines. Which have been accused to be "heretical". Kiko himself admitted that there were "errors" and that they were "not-so-exact". The statement is not
- The NC Way is known to be one of the most controversial entities... - This is true: documentation of criticisms about the NC Way (already in the article) should be sufficient. That statement also had two different sources, that were not already cited in the article.
- Cardinal Rouco Varela: - that photo does not add anything to this article. If we were to add in every Cardinal who spoke to some group, wikipedia would explode. Neocatechumenals kept adding that photo because, in their own opinions, it means "Cardinal R.V. supports the NCW". Neocatechumenals do not even explain what that supports means.
About censoring sources (Magister and other newspaper articles):
- Neocatechumenals shoot in "double-action" mode: first, they call "opinions" any reliable source of criticism to the NC Way; then they wipe out criticisms to the NCW, calling them "undocumented". This is quite unfair.
About paragraphs titles:
- Neocatechumenals wipe out even Benedict XVI words, when those words do not comply with NCW propaganda standards.
- Also, they wipe out even the paragraph titles, when they correctly explain anything about the NCW.
Thus, please, User:Ncwfl stop vandalising this article! Your contribution history shows that you have been for many years on guard, to... neocathecumenalise this article. Face the truth!
-- Rpgon2 (talk) 09:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Can I be blamed if i try to remove false and misconstrued information, which you seem to be a fan of, in order to provide a less opinionated article? Please don't waste your time making personal attacks, I work with the truth, and in the end the truth comes out.Ncwfl (talk) 22:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Wow! A classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. Rpgon2 your bias shocks the conscience.Reetex (talk) 17:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Your "truth" is actually the NCW propaganda (this is not a personal attack; it is only a description of your years of work on wikipedia, because you kept wiping out every relevant and documented word that did not comply to NC propaganda standards).
- I did not erase sections that I believe misconstrued.
- Example #1. I am still waiting for some Spanish source to know what exactly mgr.Morcillo did and said. Maybe you do not know that he was Bishop of a 5+ million people diocese, having some more 3,000 priests... and you NC say that he had enough spare time to look after a 25-year-old painter and a former-nun? Most of the news about mgr.Morcillo and Kiko and Carmen are well-built mythology.
- Example #2. NC communities in the world: largely inflated figures, without any reliable source. We know that Kiko always inflates everything: "3,200 vocations" was in fact "no more than one thousand", including "7-year-old children and people who jokes" (news coming from a NC source - inflated as well). Who can rely Kiko figures about the NCW communities in the world? If he says 3,200 then expect a very few hundred.
- Example #3. Kiko kept spreading out news about "we're approved! we're approved!" (May 2007, September 2007, December 2007, February 4, 2008, February 21-22, Easter, Pentecost, May 20...) and they always proved to be false. Well, if you get "misconstrued (and false) information" by Kiko... why should we publish it on wikipedia? If you get false informations on such questions, how can one rely onto him about Catholic doctrine and liturgy?
- -- Rpgon2 (talk) 00:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
As a member of the NC Way (and an active member of my parish) I want to make a short comment. Rpgon2 is asking for facts from the NC Way. Our responsibility will be to provide this page with facts. The criticisms against Rpgon2 about hypocritical bias seem true. It does seem that Rpgon2 has an anti-NC agenda (citing certain one-sided facts while ignoring others) but at the same time I understand. There has been an obvious NC bias without cited facts or accurate documentation. Further, there has been a biased emphasis over certain phrases in favor of the NC Way or ignoring criticisms or problems. On this point, I understand Rpgon's trying to balance the picture. We have to wait for the Church to officially declare the final approval of the statutes before declaring that they have been approved. We cannot make claims on hearsay. The NC Way has its problems, to be sure. This is undeniable. And declaring that all movements and groups have their problems doesn't address the issue. This isn't about any other group. It's about the NC Way and our problems. Pray for those who persecute us (especially unjustly) and take to heart the criticisms. Are they true? Very seldom are things just totally true or totally false. Find the truth and explain it. As for wikipedia, we have to use documented sources. If they are not there, how can we get upset that the critics are wielding that against us? PDR1234 (talk) 22:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
MedCabiation
I have just started mediation on the WP:MEDCAB request. To gebin mediating, I first need to know just a small summary of your views on the subject matter. If you accept the case, please post your view in your appropriate section below.
View by Rpgon2
Clarifying slang:
- "criticism" does not mean "non-praising"
- "unofficial" sources (example: newspaper articles) may be relevant
- article should not contain self-describing sources only
- "balancing" does not mean "wipe out any criticism and any unofficial"
- personal "experiences", "testimonies" and opinions are not relevant
This article describes NCW, an entity within the Catholic Church, thus:
- Catholic-related sources are relevant
- "criticism" by Catholic-related sources is very relevant
- so-called "criticism" helps to give an accurate description of the NCW
Note:
- context explanation is often needed (example: praising does not mean formal approval)
- original sources are mostly in Italian language
- special nature of "paper" documents (example: pastoral letters of Italian Bishops)
- translated sources and comments are easy to find in the net (and in magazines, books, etc)
- "conflict of interest" (NCW members trying to make this page a collection of their slogans)
Thus, this article:
- should largely cite Alterinfo, Zoffoli, Magister, Petrus
- should barely cite Pequeños, Rouco Varela, etc
- should not hide NCW-related controversies within the Catholic Church
- should not resemble official NCW-propaganda
Current version is not that far from neutrality and completeness:
- the POV tag is not needed
- the Cleanup tag is not anymore needed
- every important statement cites at least a valid source ("Magister wrote... Vaticanist said... Bishop wrote...")
-- Rpgon2 (talk) 19:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
View by Ncwfl
The first issue regards the information presented by the books and letters of Fr. Zoffoli.
A little bit of background information. The first of his books was written in 1990 and wrote many more regarding “’The Way’” until his death in 1996 (he also published one in the same year). In his books he claims many doctrinal and liturgical errors, many nearing heresy and lining with protestant beliefs. Approximately six years after the last of his books was published the Holy See and 5 congregations signed into approval (‘Ad Experimentum’ for 5 years) the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way. In the statutes there was also mention of the Chatecatical Directory. This consists of all of the teachings given during the full experience of the movement. This second document requires a single approval from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Now what is being brought into question is the validity of the source. In 1995 Fr. Zoffoli wrote to the Holy See regarding the “’The Way‘” and he received a response from Cardinal Ruini, the Vicar of the Pope, which he asked Fr. Zoffoli to “Not substitute the competent organs and to not include, even with good intentions, personal bias and premature judgments on topics that regard the orthodoxy of ecclesiastical realities, or even more so the Holy Father.” While not expressing the validity of Fr. Zoffoli’s claims he does discourage any behavior, such as publishing books, which would undermine the Holy See’s official position or even the popes. In 2002 with the approval (even if temporary) of the statutes it is my view that any validity to these claims was removed. This is because I do not find it logical to approve any portion of an ecclesiastical reality that contains “fundamental doctrinal errors” which would go against the Catholic Church. Fr. Zoffoli has said that Kiko, the founder, must publicly recant any of the incorrect statements in the catechism presented by “’The Way’” in order to avoid committing heresy, such action was never taken by the Vatican.
The Second source issue is in relation to the Geocities webpage Alterinfo. I asked on the Reliable Sources notice board and asked if it was reliable to cite the books and letters on this webpage. A user said that it was possible that the source did, in fact, infringe copyright laws by hosting excerpts of the book. I attempted to have an administrator check if the source broke copyright laws but was never able to due to administrative backlog and User:Rpgon2.
Sandro Magister is an Italian Reporter that works for a center-left L'Espresso.In his articles he is always the first to publish documents from the Vatican. It is my view that the opinions presented by the sources are in fact unreliable for the article since he is 100% against “’The Way’”. In his writings presents facts mixed in with his opinions, hardly reliable in my view. Magister is cited for the official document, that’s fine, but his opinions do not have any reliability.
I’m unsure what credibility Pietrus has, but it seems to me it’s just a blog hosting rants.
In its current state the criticism section tilts the page very strongly against “’The Way’”. This does not mean remove them completely, but rework them to show the Neocatechumanal Way in its true light. The criticisms do in fact exist, but most are unvalidated claims that have died out, i.e. Zoffoli and Margheritto. I have not found any recent criticisms that validate any of these claims. Now it is important these criticisms but nearly not to the extent which they are, noting that they have been overcome. Now I am abhorred by the claim of NCW propaganda which has been constantly thrown around against my edits and others which share similar opinions. It has been my intent to remove the “slogans” since day one, and User:Rpgon2 hasn’t removed any slogans either, meaning that there aren’t any to remove. Now given the rather large criticism section, I find that it does unbalance the article giving it an overall negative view of “’The Way’”. I find that any controversial statements must be written in such a way that it does not contain opinions or interpretation, but be presented as it is, so the reader may make his own opinion without being influenced by the opinions of others. --Ncwfl (talk) 21:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Once I have both views, the mediation can begin. Soxred 93 04:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The statutes have been approved, enough said. JA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.170.27.34 (talk) 16:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree. ChristeVita —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristeVita (talk • contribs) 19:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Mediation
Ok, now that I have both views, I can give some comments. Ncfwl, the geocities cite by itself is not a reliable source. While I don't know Italian (or whatever language it is), I do know that Geocities cites are rarely reliable. Pietrus also appears to be unreliable. Rpgon2, you mentioned the "X said" words. Those are called weasel words, and you should probably tag the article with {{subst:dated|weasel}}, or put it in the sandbox I created for the purpose. Soxred 93 23:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
To The Mediator
Please see the Neocatechumenal Way article as it is right now. I reverted it to the way Rpgon2 had it several days ago. It is worth taking a look at while you are making your recommendations. ChristeVita —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristeVita (talk • contribs) 14:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed to the most recent version. The version in question can be found here.--Ncwfl (talk) 19:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
NCWFL, you are quite wrong.
Those books about the Way are still being cited everywhere (try googling for Marighetto and Zoffoli)... Then you cannot state that they are not relevant.
Zoffoli was never punished by the Church for his books and articles about the Way: some of them even gained the Imprimatur... and the only exception, Ruini's letter, does not say you are wrong, but only do not anticipate... Then you cannot state that Zoffoli books are no longer relevant.
Wikipedia generally does not accept blogs and webs like Geocities... but you cannot affirm that since it has been hosted on Geocities, then it has to be false.
Publishing excerpts from books is not by itself a copyright violation. Those books, by their nature, are not intended to make money, but to make people know. The copyright argument is clearly a product of your bias.
You say that Magister is 100% against the Way and presents facts mixed with his opinions... Can you prove it, please?
You say that Pietrus is a blog hosting rants... you understand Italian language and you know that it is totally false... how comes that a rants blog has two priests and a dozen writers, a phone number, a snail mail address?... and it was legally registered in the Italian online journalism association.
NCWFL only wants to enforce the official point of view of the official NCW association... using a strict interpretation of the letter of Wikipedia policy to violate the spirit of the Wikipedia policy.
But... is this an NCWikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antotech (talk • contribs) 09:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
- Please note also that:
- in the beginning of this page there were already notes about sources reliability
- Magister is a reliable source because he knows very well the NCW and had first-hand access to otherwise non-public documents. You may classify his articles as "weasel words" only if he was some random journalist, or if he was something different than a "vaticanist" reporter.
- Even some Roman Catholic Bishops contribute to Petrus/papanews. May be that the rants are User:Ncwfl's ones.
- The "NCWikipedia Censorship Campaign" won't end until NCW users stop wiping out relevant, reliable, verifiable material. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 22:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
- Please note also that:
I am thus adding again sources that were deleted because of User:Ncwfl unsubastantiated or wrong claims. -- Rpgon2 (talk) 14:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- I invite you to re read what I have written sincew I belive you ,may have misunderstood what was written. Having said this, I never questioned the reliability of the source, only its validity. Given the subsequent events almost all that was written by Fr. Zoffoli is strictly his opinion and has no bearing.
- I ask you to revisit the geocities issue. By doing so that I never said it was,. But that another user said so and I never had the opportunity to verify such claim. Here is the question in mind:
Alterinfo is an Italian group who's website is hosted on Geocities since 1999 and contains large excerpts from books and articles. With a few exceptions (letters to the webmaster, etc), everything on that website was already published "on paper". I am wondering if it is safe to use those sources. Most of the pages are in a different language (Italian) but it does contain few english pages.
- Looks like probable {{copyvio link}} material to me. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 04:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Regarding my “gaming the system,” it is a very risky thing to ask for mediation since it can go either way. I did so in order to reach an end to both mine and Rpgon2’s “edit warring” that has been going on since concessions have never been given on either side of the argument. Due to this I decided to search for some dispute resolution and this was the first step since ironing out anything between us 2 users would have been impossible. -- Ncwfl (talk) 20:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello all. I am an italian user, and I am interested in contributing to this article. Unfortunately my english is not good enough to directly do this, but maybe I can translate something from italian, to help you into this discussion. Ask me, and I'll (try to) translate... --Jean85 (talk) 18:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Vatican Information Service (VIS) Press Release: Approval of the Statutes of the Neo-Catechumenal Way
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/d1_en.htm
Radio Vaticana: Pope Gives Neocatechumenal Way Final Statutes
http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=211963
ZENIT: Neocatechumenate Gets Final Approval
http://www.zenit.org/article-22886?l=english
CBCP News: Church Gives Final OK to Neocatechumenate
http://www.cbcpnews.com/?q=node/3226
Kiko's clarifications
Please include these clarifications from Kiko:
- Hellohigudby (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
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