Talk:Organisation of Eastern Caribbean States

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Does the OECS handle disasters?[edit]

In the intro of the article there's the mention of the OECS handeling hurricane distasters. My question is does the OECS do this for certain? I thought that disasters in the OECS were left up to the Caribbean Disaster Emergency Response Agency (CEDERA) -- And that was say- if the issue was like weather related, or else; the Regional Security System (RSS) -- www.rss.org.bb if it required something like military colaboration? between either Barbados or the OECS states? CaribDigita 15:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi CaribDigita! I believe you are correct. I will double-check with a friend who works for NEMO in St Lucia, but certainly from my understanding and a quick check on the OECS website they do not have a unit responsible for either disaster preparedness or response. My feeling is that, unless anyone objects with proof to the contrary, the article should be amended accordingly. Best regards. Vivenot 17:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Vivenot, I suspect that contribution may have been about perhaps when (Hurricane) "Ivan the Terrible" hit Grenada. That's my thought-, I'm thinking then-- perhaps there was some colaberation with the OECS because ofcourse all communications to/from Grenada were down, the island had no way to pay it's debts and the economy of the whole island actually froze the day after. It was a bad-bad-bad situation where some functions of Grenada had to be moved offshore. A few different OECS(and Caribbean islands) said they would step in to help cover Grenada's international obligations for a little while, etc. But I could be wrong, about the diaster thing, but I didn't think the OECS Secretariat got involved in every disaster situation. Outside of what- say any other NGO would do in wanting to help.

P.S. Please tell your friend about Wikipedia if they don't know about it. Tell them how addictive it is... :-) It would greatly put my mind to great ease also if they could perhaps look over the CDERA article to make sure it's relivent and perhaps said everything that it should. You know- tell them to snag themselves a Wiki-ID and feel free to add more if they wish. :-) CaribDigita 20:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

doingbusiness.org link[edit]

This link: Doing Business 2007: OECS Countries World Bank Group study

Was added by an IP address registered to the World Bank Group (doingbusiness.org is a World Bank Group domain). In keeping with our conflict of interest and external links guidelines I've moved it here for consideration by regular editors of this article who are unaffiliated with the site. -- Siobhan Hansa 13:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Martinique acceding associate member[edit]

Since Martinique will become an associate member of the OECS tomorrow, the comparison table (and maps) will need to be changed. I managed to do the necessary changes to the table in preparation for the accession, but the only sticking points are the GDP (PPP) and GDP (PPP) per capita for Martinique as I have only been able to find the nominal GDP and GDP per capita rather than the PPP GDP and PPP GDP per capita:

	Highest
	Lowest
	State Associate

State	Joined	Population	km²	GDP (PPP) $Million	GDP (PPP) per capita ^[1]	HDI ^{New 2013} ^[2]	Currency	Official Language(s)
Antigua and Barbuda	18 June 1981	86,295	442.6	1,709	$20,977	0.760	East Caribbean Dollar	English
Dominica	18 June 1981	72,660	751	952	$13,102	0.745	East Caribbean Dollar	English
Grenada	18 June 1981	110,000	344	1,142	$11,498	0.770	East Caribbean Dollar	English
Montserrat	18 June 1981	5,879	102	99	$8,500	0.821	East Caribbean Dollar	English
Saint Kitts and Nevis	18 June 1981	51,300	261	892	$20,929	0.745	East Caribbean Dollar	English
Saint Lucia	18 June 1981	173,765	606	2,071	$10,560	0.725	East Caribbean Dollar	English
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines	18 June 1981	120,000	389	1,237	$10,663	0.733	East Caribbean Dollar	English
British Virgin Islands	22 November 1984	29,537	151	853	$42,300	0.945	United States dollar	English
Anguilla	1995	13,452	96	108	$8,800	0.865	East Caribbean dollar	English
Martinique	4 February 2015	386,486	1,128	10,700	$27,688	0.904	Euro	French

^ "World Bank". 8 July 2014.
^ "International Human Development Indicators". Human Development Report 2013, The Rise of the South: Human Progress in a Diverse World. United Nations Development Programme. Retrieved 23 March 2013.

Anybody know what the PPP figures are for Martinique? 72.27.159.186 10:37 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Martinique is not an independent country so you wouldn't have stats separate of the Republic of France. Martinique has representatives and all within the French Parliament. Unlike British territories which don't have representatives in the British House of Commons. CaribDigita (talk) 20:09, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Guadeloupe accession as an associate, anyone have HDI values for Guadeloupe in 2017?[edit]

The format of the table has changed somewhat as it no longer highlights the highest and lowest values, but the same basic information is retained. In preparation for Guadeloupe's accession I've also made an update to the table, but I can't find the HDI value for Guadeloupe for 2017 (presumably the year the HDI figures were done for the other full and associate members). I am almost sure it must be between 0.8 and 0.9, (likely 0.85) but does anyone have the figures? Here's the table without the HDI figure:

Associate Member

State	Capital	Joined	Population (2017)	Area (km²)	GDP (Nominal) (millions of US$)	GDP (Nominal) per cap.	HDI ^{New 2017} ^[1]	Currency	Official Language(s)
Antigua and Barbuda	St. John's	Founder	91,244^[2]	443	1,524^[2]	$16,702^[2]	0.780	East Caribbean dollar	English
Dominica	Roseau	Founder	70,693^[2]	751	557^[2]	$7,879^[2]	0.715	East Caribbean dollar	English
Grenada	St. George's	Founder	107,541^[2]	344	1,119^[2]	$10,405^[2]	0.772	East Caribbean dollar	English
Montserrat	Brades	Founder	4,417^[3]	102	63^[3]	$12,301^[3]	0.821	East Caribbean dollar	English
Saint Kitts and Nevis	Basseterre	Founder	55,411^[2]	261	964^[2]	$17,397^[2]	0.778	East Caribbean dollar	English
Saint Lucia	Castries	Founder	175,498^[2]	617	1,684^[2]	$9,607^[2]	0.747	East Caribbean dollar	English
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines	Kingstown	Founder	110,185^[2]	389	785^[2]	$7,124^[2]	0.723	East Caribbean dollar	English
Anguilla	The Valley	1995	15,253^[4]	96	337^[4]	$22,090^[4]	0.865	East Caribbean dollar	English
British Virgin Islands	Road Town	1984	35,015^[5]	151	1,164^[5]	$33,233^[5]	0.945	United States dollar	English
Martinique	Fort-de-France	2015	374,780^[6]	1,128	10,379^[6]	$27,693^[6]	0.863	Euro	French
Guadeloupe	Basse-Terre	2019	429,085^[7]	1,628	11,864^[6]	$27,650^[6]		Euro	French

72.27.102.202 (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not likely. Martinique and Guadeloupe are to the Republic of France as what Hawaii is to the United States of America a composite part of. So you're not likely to get anything else separate of the Republic of France. CaribDigita (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Martinique's status[edit]

Something seems inconsistent about Martinique's supposed accession to the OECS. I wish to air my concerns and invite feedback before making changes to the article which might cause disputes. Two key points are particulary glaring to me:

1) Contrary to the official announcement of Martinique's joining the OECS, Martinique is not simply a French territory. Martinique is an overseas department of France that has equal political status of all parts of European France. As such, there are different rules which apply to Martinique's joining an international organisation as opposed to if it was a true self-governing dependent territory.

2) Martinique is not listed on the OECS' list of member and observer states, now nearly a year after the accession papers were signed in Febuary 2015. Wouldn't the organisation want to make clear on their website such an addition to their ranks?

I do not doubt that something was signed on 5 February 2015 between the President of the Regional Council of Martinique and the authorized parties of the OECS. I am only questioning the real effect of those documents. Are they stuck in legal limbo pending approval by the French national government? Is it all effectively symbolic in nature, the signatories aware from the start of the overruling power of France's sovereignty? Or is it a placeholder agreement should Martinique's pro-autonomy leadership decide to hold a referendum to formally change the department's status within the French Republic? Either way, I feel this & other related articles' inclusion of Martinique as an observer of the OECS deserves some reassessment. Farolif (talk) 00:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to OECS this "Martinique submitted a formal application for associate membership in the OECS with the full support/endorsement of the French Government." My guess is they just haven't updated their website. TDL (talk) 01:01, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"full support/endorsement", but what about actual approval? It wouldn't be the first time a politician has supplied a little lip service in order to avoid ruffling any feathers. Farolif (talk) 01:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

ADD - "they just haven't updated their website" If this was the government of a struggling microstate whose official websites have been known to fall into disrepair and become miserably outdated (I can name a few examples), then I would allow that excuse. However, the OECS is a properly functioning association whose site is regularly updated with new material. A significant detail such as gaining a new member should have been included without much delay after the fact. Farolif (talk) 01:13, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lip service wouldn't really qualify as "full support". Endorsement is just a synonym of approval, so I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw. An agreement was reached between the OECS and the Government of France on Martinique's participation. You can see it published by the Government of France here: [1]. What other approval were you expecting? TDL (talk) 05:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That documentation looks like nothing more than (again) an acknowledgement that the documents were signed by the involved parties, but not whether they were implemented. To be more clear, what I feel is missing out of all of this is an explanation for why this agreement does not need to be countersigned, if not followed up with a separate resolution entirely, by the national-level government of France. I do not otherwise know of any precedent for the Regional Council of a French region having binding authority to bring an accession such as this into force. Farolif (talk) 01:13, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is all speculation and WP:original research. You are speculating that Serge Letchimy signed the document in his role as a President of the Regional Council of Martinique rather than in his role as a member of the National Assembly (France) representing the French government. You are speculating that there are binding provisions in the agreement. You are speculating that it hasn't been approved by the French government. TDL (talk) 16:50, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is not speculation. None of the cited sources refer to Letchimy's dual role as a National Assembly member - which would still not necessarily give him authority to fully implement this accession. Furthermore, the OECS Director General is cited in his acknowledgement of the "limitations" to Martinique's involvement due to its political status. Farolif (talk) 17:12, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't ask how he was referred to in a press release. I asked what role he signed the treaty in. You are just guessing on that. Yes he'd still need authorization from the French government to sign it, but you're just guessing that he didn't get it. And yes, no one is disputing that Martinique has limitations and couldn't become a full member. I'm not sure what your point is.

There are many many sources which say it is an associate member. An out of date list does not disprove them. For example, here is a quote from Didacus Jules, Director General of OECS: "We are fortunate that Martinique is now an Associate Member of the OECS". Is the director of the organization wrong? A few other sources on the first Google page: [2][3][4][5] TDL (talk) 17:42, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Those sources are questionable because yet again they refer to "France Territory" which isn't actually the status of Martinique. I'm almost certain that France is in charge of Martinique's Foreign Affairs. CaribDigita (talk) 01:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Who said France wasn't in charge of Martinique's Foreign Affairs? I don't think that's in dispute. The only thing in dispute is whether Martinique is an Associate Member or not. The source above, published by the OECS Commission, quotes Didacus Jules, the Director General of OECS, as saying "We are fortunate that Martinique is now an Associate Member of the OECS". Do you think this is a questionable source? TDL (talk) 02:15, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is likely less a question of whether the director of the organisation was speaking incorrectly, and more of an opting for expediency rather than delving into the legal details of Martinique's association with the OECS - particularly in the press releases & business journal interviews which you have chosen as your evidence.

You also continue to casually write off the failure of the OECS site to list Martinique as one of its member states as simply being a result of the site not being updated (despite no indication that any other part of the site is not adequately maintained). Are you going to fall back on that excuse for these other sources not including Martinique as an OECS member?

—OECS LinkedIn account

—Eastern Caribbean Central Bank

—CARICOM (which you use as one of your own sources...)

—Coalition for the International Criminal Court

—European Union

It seems that several major international bodies that ought to care about keeping details such as this up to date have not made this change to their official sites nearly a year after the supposed accession. What does that tell you? Farolif (talk) 06:10, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The membership I question whether it would be "Martinique" or as "the Republic of France" as Martinique is completely integrated into France as an outer region of France. The OECS' understanding of that may be limited as the same equivalency doesn't exist in the British West Indies. But I guess that would be like saying Barbuda was a member of something while Antigua was not. Or Tobago joined something and Trinidad did not. CaribDigita (talk) 16:39, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Martinique is already independently an associate member of the Association of Caribbean States (unlike French Guiana, for example, which is a member via France), so the precedent has already been set that it's possible. See: [6][7]. TDL (talk) 00:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It tells me that your can't find any direct evidence to support your argument, so you're forced to rely on an absence of evidence based argument around which you've attempted to build a circumstantial case. Surely if Martinique did not become an Associate in February, as was widely reported, someone, somewhere would have reported that?

To conclude that it is an associate member we do not need every website on the internet be updated, we just need several wp:reliable sources to confirm that fact. The internet is littered with out of date websites. We have the most reliable of sources on the matter, the OECS, confirming it on more than one occasion, and no sources which refute it. I have a hard time believing that Jules was in too much of a hurry to speak of Martinique's associate membership in the future tense. It would have taken no more effort to be accurate.

I'm not casually writing off the out of date website, I sent an email to the OECS asking about it, and they responded that it was under construction and that they were working on rectifying the members page to accurately reflect the membership. TDL (talk) 00:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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^ "International Human Development Indicators". Human Development Report 2013, The Rise of the South: Human Progress in a Diverse World. United Nations Development Programme. Retrieved 23 March 2013.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r "https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/ATG/GRD/DMA/LCA/VCT/KNA". www.imf.org. Retrieved 2019-01-11. {{cite web}}: External link in |title= (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c "National Accounts Main Aggregates Database". {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c "Welcome to the West India Committee". The West India Committee. Retrieved 2019-01-11.
^ ^a ^b ^c www.caribank.org https://www.caribank.org/sites/default/files/publication-resources/BVI%20CER%202018_final.pdf. Retrieved 2019-01-11. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e www.cerom-outremer.fr http://www.cerom-outremer.fr/IMG/pdf/comptesrapides__2017_martinique.pdf. Retrieved 2019-01-11. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
^ www.acs-aec.org/ http://www.acs-aec.org/index.php?q=associate-members/guadeloupe. Retrieved 2019-03-14. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

[A1-1] "World Bank". 8 July 2014.

[IHDI-UNDP-2] "International Human Development Indicators". Human Development Report 2013, The Rise of the South: Human Progress in a Diverse World. United Nations Development Programme. Retrieved 23 March 2013.

[IHDI-UNDP-3] "International Human Development Indicators". Human Development Report 2013, The Rise of the South: Human Progress in a Diverse World. United Nations Development Programme. Retrieved 23 March 2013.

[:0-4] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r "https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/ATG/GRD/DMA/LCA/VCT/KNA". www.imf.org. Retrieved 2019-01-11. {{cite web}}: External link in |title= (help)

[:1-5] "National Accounts Main Aggregates Database". {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

[:2-6] "Welcome to the West India Committee". The West India Committee. Retrieved 2019-01-11.

[:3-7] www.caribank.org https://www.caribank.org/sites/default/files/publication-resources/BVI%20CER%202018_final.pdf. Retrieved 2019-01-11. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

[:4-8] www.cerom-outremer.fr http://www.cerom-outremer.fr/IMG/pdf/comptesrapides__2017_martinique.pdf. Retrieved 2019-01-11. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

[:5-9] www.acs-aec.org/ http://www.acs-aec.org/index.php?q=associate-members/guadeloupe. Retrieved 2019-03-14. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

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