Talk:Russophobia

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Racism[edit]

"Russophobia" is racism, but somehow it is not viewed this way in society, neither it is reflected in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.71.148.156 (talk) 06:12, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Mixed bag of cherry-picked statements and very general findings (a.k.a. "fluff")[edit]

Two things surprise me at the first sight: overly wide spectrum of this article and its general single POV

  1. Despite of the name the article rarely discusses russophobia but mostly documents a founded antirussian sentiment (it is hard to be surprised that the people fear of or dislike the country, governments and supporting them people who perform ethnical cleanses and deny them or violate borders without actually declaring the war - even now, in 2014). In result, the article is full of a fluff which may be used to proclaim a "russophobia" around the world, which is not.
  2. The article bases generally on cherry-picked statements and POVs (e.g. of sides which may found it useful to proclaim others "russophobic"). Starting a section with Russian officials claim is not very fortunate, as Russian officials claim many things, like that the Russian soldiers invading Crimea at the moment are "local self-defense forces" - and they have a huge backlog of such blatant lies.

I know it is extremely hard to not write this article in sucha a way. My kudos for everyone who worked to police this article - this is pretty obvious it has been a hard work and a lot of things with obtaining sources etc. have been done. However, wouldn't it be more fair to actually name this article as Anti Russian sentiment or even make an article attitude towards Russian state, attitude towards Russian culture, attitude towards Russian people etc. etc.?

Then maybe one could present in a better way a mixed bag of opinions, without branding them as phobias or, on the other hand, being a useful idiot. Otherwise, maybe it should be split and here only actual phobic examples should be presented.

Just my 2 cents, aegis maelstrom δ 10:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

aegis maelstrom: I do see your point; the only problem is, how are editors to make a firm distinction between a genuine phobia, and legitimate or at least understandable (and generally more temporary) hatred caused by immediate events. It's rather like Islamophobia: while I think most editors would agree both phobias exists, in both cases I don't see a general consensus regarding how widespread that phobia is and how it might be defined. Both phobias, I'm afraid, are subject to a) political manipulation/promotion; b) subjective POV. So it's probably better - as in the Armenian subsection of this article (as it stands at present) - to make clear where Russophobia generally doesn't exist, and why there might be anti-Russian feeling at certain times. This, perhaps, helps to clarify/gives perspective on other sections of this article. Alfietucker (talk) 21:00, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree with aegis maelstrom . This article is even a redirect from "Anti-Russian Sentiment" and this is in fact the only article in the Template:Anti-cultural_sentiment with -phobia in its title, making it sound like it is considered OK to have anti-X sentiment except for Russia, which is an irrational phobia. This is even more bizarre considering how there are several countries that have very real and clear reasons for despising the Russian government, including the entire list of countries mentionned in Chapter 2.1 Former Soviet Union and chapter 2.2 Former Eastern Bloc. Consider how that distinction is already for Jewish people, i.e. Antisemitism (irrational hatred) and Anti-Zionism (political opposition). So to be consistent, either this article needs to be renamed "Anti-Russian sentiment", or two separate articles Russophobia and Anti-Russian sentiment need to be written. Willa wonky (talk) 15:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Willa wonky. The main problem with this article, Alfietucker, is that this is simply a Russian propaganda article. This article notoriously fails to provide neutral and scientific sources claiming we are dealing with a phobia. Some sections, like Russophobia in Poland, are lists of some Russian individuals (why them?) claiming, there is a such a thing like a Russophobia in Poland. I am sorry but these are not credible sources. The other quote is about anti-russian feelings - which are clearly something very different than phobias.
I find it hard to find proofs of notability and verifiability of this "phenomenon".
Using these low standards, we can populate Wikipedia with thousands of articles called NewYorkCityPhobia (people accused of having negative feelings towards New York City), Volleyballphobia (the ones not liking a glorious game of volleyball), Bieberphobia (the ones daring to not love Mr. Bieber), Androidphobia (people complaining on Android phones and system in general) etc. etc.
As far as I know, neither ICD-10 nor DSM-IV (DSM-V?) holds such an item as russophobia - therefore, even the notability should be proven. Even if this is done, the article (if it is to remain as a Russophobia) should be cleared from unproven claims of phobia. In its present state, I don't see staying much, TBH.
On the other hand, Stalinist "psychiatry" has a long tradition of depicting the political opposition as "mentally ill". This obvious resembliance tells that phobia stunt is just an old trick in a propaganda book and this article is a political spin, propaganda item. Personally I do not like a situation when some officials are using Wikipedia to insert their agenda into the mainstream.
Therefore, if you like keeping an anti-Russian sentiment, like anti-American sentiment, anti-EU sentiment or anti-NYC sentiment - I am fine with that. Otherwise, I call it a biased article with a purpose.
Kind Regards, aegis maelstrom δ 12:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Well if you consult the dictionary, the term "Russophobia" exists to describe strong negative feelings towards Russia (possibly irrational, but not necessarily so) As for anti-R sentiments, below I suggested to create an article, under a neutral title Public opinions about Russia. Please also keep in mind that while some negative attitudes against Russia may be objectivized, the negative attitudes against Russian people or culture are either clean cut Racism or overgeneralization based on bad personal experience (with Russian mafia, girlfriend, hotel attendant, etc.) Therefore the two must be clearly separated. -No.Altenmann >t 16:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Types of russophobia[edit]

I reverted section with this name because it is original research of WP:SYNTH type. The editor collected a bunch of examples (some are with references) and imposed classification on them. This is as clear WP:SYNTH as can be. You need references which actually describe the classification. -No.Altenmann >t 03:27, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Germany ?[edit]

I think it's high time to create also a Germany section under 2.3 for Russophobia, isn't it ? --129.187.244.28 (talk) 12:34, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Russophobia by country section[edit]

How does a poll talking about whether a country has a positive or negative influence in the world count as Russophobia? And does it deserve a full chart denoting all the responses from all countries? The topics are related, sure, and the poll can be mentioned in a paragraph or so.Kingsindian (talk) 16:32, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Who says that the poll "counts as Russophobia"? Also: re: "from all countries": last time I looke at the map, there was way more countries than the table shows. Table is good. Simply mentioning the poll is useless. -No.Altenmann >t 19:09, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Poll tables[edit]

After some thought, I removed polls for a simple reason: they lump together both rational and stereotypical opinions about Russia; indeed, in last two centuries Russia gave plenty of valid reasons to have negative opinion about it. Indeed, how do you imagine a poll: "Please select one of 4 bullets: (a) You are Russophobic (b) Russia hurt you and you hate it (c) A Russian hurt you but you still love this bitch (d) That's a cool ipad you are using in the poll!" Jokes aside, these tables say nothing about prevalence of Russopobia, and hence irrelevant. -No.Altenmann >t 15:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

On the other hands, it would be a reasonably encyclopedic article, Public opinion about Russia, and a neutral title, too. Whoever created these tables, please make a new page. And link it here, e.g., in "see also" section. (I could have done it myself, but I don't want to snatch your glory of priority. :-) -No.Altenmann >t 15:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

We have been using gallop poll for longer period. Having negative opinion can be concerning with the anti-russian or russophobic sentiment. Later paragraphs(about countries and its population) had enough content that anyone could consider this poll to be legit. Yes there is deep anti-russian sentiment in those countries, wouldn't need to question that how they couldn't. You had any thoughts about replacing poll with other content? Bladesmulti (talk) 16:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I have an impression that you did not understand what I wrote why these polls are not for this article. I don't see how you disprove my argument. I also suggested where to put the polls into wikipedia. -No.Altenmann >t 01:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
How? Already wrote, that because they provide an idea about the sentiments, they have been used for a longer period. These polls are more common when we are writing about the specific countries and their relations e.g. "France-Russia relations", in those articles, polls like this would be necessary. You may wonder why I haven't reverted your edits, its because of your argument above. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
It seems you have no idea how wikipedia works. Here is a simple question for you: per wikipedia rules, please provide references to reliable sources which state that these polls homehow characterize Russophobia or how they can distinguish irrational anti-Russian sentiment (the topic of the current article) from the rational one (i.e., the one that may be rationally explained by politics of Russia). -No.Altenmann >t 03:42, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Also, you have trouble with logic. Yes, they characterize Fr-Ru relations. Yes, I suggested they may be included in the special summary article Public opinion about Russia. But this has nothing to do with the question whether they are relevant to the discussed article. And this relevance does not depend on a wikipedian's opinion. You have to provide reliable sources which establish this relevance. Otherwise it is called "original research", disallowed in wikipedia. -No.Altenmann >t 03:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
It seems like you are having some serious issues with the understanding of basic policies and language. I am doubtful if you know about the longevity of the sourced material. Without verifying the sources and making up weird opinions cannot be helpful. It seems to be impossible if you are going to look around, but whenever you will do, you would better know that the "BBC Service poll" has been extensively used by the reliable sources and academics for describing the prevalence of Russophobia.[1], [2], [3] If you try different terms like "against Russia", "anti-russian", you can find many resources using this poll. Thus your suggestion about creating an article like "Public opinion about Russia" is just nonsensical. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing real references into the discussion. Now we may talk wikipedians talk. One problem with these sources: they are passionate pro-Russian propaganda pieces. Just one example: in one of them, one of features of Russophobia is claimed to be "The image of Russia’s ruthless pursuit of expansionist and imperialist agendas is commonplace." Russophobia? Oh, really? Especially in view of recent events? But never mind. Yes the pieces are called "Russophobia". The please pay attention how the poll data are used:

"Various polls demonstrate that Americans do not agree with the assessment that Russia is a threat to the United States' values and interests. A recent BBC World Service poll revealed, for example, that 45 percent of Americans have a mainly positive attitude regarding Russia's influence in the world, compared with 36 percent who have a mainly negative attitude."
"assessment that Russia is a threat" is not Russophobia. It is ..er.. assessment for national security purpose. Or it is an assessment to beef up military business. In the latter case it is indeed called "russophobia card". On the former case it is not. Back to my major point again: the quote does not discuss how much of these 36% are Russophobia. -No.Altenmann >t 17:14, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

And finally, you seem to peristently ignore my major comment (also voiced in the talk page before by others) that "Russophobia" and "anti-Russian" are not the same. And how on Earth my suggestion of the article with a neutral title is nonsensical? -No.Altenmann >t 18:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC)