Talk:The Hunger Project/Archive 1

Proposed approach towards resolving this dispute

• I have reviewed Wikipedia and propose that the Unicef page serve as a model for ensuring that both a Wiki-appropriate overview of The Hunger Project as well as the criticism is included, and have rewritten the piece appropriate to that model, focusing on facts. Each incident of criticism from the 1970s and 1980s does not constitute a "fact" about The Hunger Project or a criticism, and is not appropriate here - what is appropriate is an honest gist of the criticism, which has now been included.Jcoonrod 20:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That is a completely different organization, with its own separate history and ethical culture. "Each incident of criticism from the 1970s and 1980s..." and indeed through to the present do indeed constitute relevant factual information that would be of great interest to the average Wikipedia reader. The reader should be allowed access to the information, and be left free to make his/her own decision. To that end, the subheadings of Favorable and Unfavorable headings under the external links section provide yet another way to maintain a more balanced, NPOV approach to this controversial issue. Smeelgova 01:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Well, there is a dillemma we need to resolve here. I'm disappointed that you took the route of reverting rather than engaging with a good-faith model that has already proven to work on Wiki (Unicef). If we stick with your approach to the history, then I would need to balance it with what you call "facts" of equal weight from our 29 year history, and the history section would become 150 pages long. For example, should every interaction with the anti-cult movement bear more or less weight than every interaction with leaders of African governments, or with each speaking engagement at the UN, or each commendation letter we receive from world leaders? Based on this, I too will revert and provide you another opportunity to work within a framework that may actually work.Jcoonrod 11:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The page was not simply reverted, information was incorporated from the corporate governance section into the current article. As for the "Unicef" model, I sincecely disapprove of your method of simply deleting all information present in the current article, and rewriting the article to a shorter, more positively biased version as you see fit. Many other editors besides present company have complained about this. If other editors have contributed over time to an article, and that article is then recondensed by one sole user, that seems to be an invalidation of the work of many other people, trumped by the views of the one. Smeelgova 18:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, energetic editing and rewriting it what Wikipedia is all about. I consider your format terribly unbalanced and unfair from the perspective of THP, although I am sure it seems fair from your perspective, which seems focused on early criticism of THP. That early criticism is definitely a fair subject, but given that we dispute the accuracy and even the legality of most of it, something other than merely linking or republishing is called for. Also - please see the note on your own discussion page regarding several of your links.Jcoonrod 11:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
    • On another topic, financial information published on charity websites is all identical and all comes from THP through our federal filings. Going through and finding a numerous links to the same information is intended to communicate what? That there is something wrong with the data? THP is quite proud of our good financial information and the good ratings given us by watchdog agencies.Jcoonrod 11:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• All information from the more balanced version of this article has come from multiple editor/contributors, and not simply one editor. The financial information is accurate and sourced, cited from multiple sources, both in the article and the external links section. 25% for administrative and fundraising expenses is widely considered to be too much of a margin, and 23.5% is certainly close to this. Smeelgova 17:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The information you and a few others are trying to inject is all based on one point of view about long-past associations, not about THP itself. Your opinions about overhead rates diverge with those of all known watchdog agencies, so they do not meet any authoritative opinion.Jcoonrod 12:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Incorrect. The information that you have is one-sided and positively biased, whereas the information that myself and many others wish to contribute contains multiple points of view and is contributed to the article in a manner as most neutral and balanced as possible. Financial information is cited with a neutral reference explaining exactly why 23.5% for administrative and fundraising expenses is way too high relative to the federal norm for organizations.Smeelgova 17:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • We obviously disagree, and would welcome a speedy resolution to this dispute that both informs readers what THP is, of the existence of you and other critics, and the salient points of your criticism. Wikipedia offers a series of steps - mediation and arbitration, with mediation being preferable, and so we propose mediation. This, of course would require your consent. Until this is resolved, let us use the Unicef-based structure which does achieve what I believe both of us would feel is fair.Jcoonrod 16:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Your model is not fair, and certainly not balanced towards both positive and negative viewpoints. Therefore it would not be most appropriate to use this structure.Smeelgova 17:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Smeelgova, do you agree to mediation?Jcoonrod 18:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• That would be acceptable.Smeelgova 18:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• We will need to reach a truce, which will require some compromise between our very different views of a structure that is not inherently biased through the mediation period. I could live some of your links but not with your timeline, which I feel creates an impression of the dispute rather than the actual substance of the dispute.Jcoonrod 19:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Smeelgova, you will need to "sign" that you agree to the request at Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation.Jcoonrod 19:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • "Mediation Committee procedure requires that all parties to a mediation be notified of the mediation, and indicate an agreement to mediate within fourteen days'." Understood.Smeelgova 23:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Smeelgova, please reply with suggestions on a truce format so that we do not waste time editing two completely different versions of the page.Jcoonrod 23:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It would be less confrontational for all parties involved to simply debate the issue, instead of addressing individual users' names directly.Smeelgova 23:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Parties to the mediation are expected to call a truce, which I believe will require some compromises. I feel strongly that your timeline section is an inherently biased structure as it portrays each time a person repeats your POV as a significant event in the history of THP rather than simply stating the substance of your POV. I also have expressed strong reservations about the inappropriateness of many of your links as misleading in the same way, but I could leave them during a truce, and as I read the proceedures we are expected to call a truce before the mediation.Jcoonrod 07:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The information represented in the timeline section is not my POV, but that of whoever the information is referring to. I have never personally stated my POV, other than to state that said information is relevant to the article and of interest to the reader. Let us keep this discussion civil and not refer to individuals' POV's, but rather to the relevant nature of the information at hand, and its usefulness to the reader. The links section has been structured in such a way as to allow for balance and NPOV, as has been done on other controversial articles.Smeelgova 08:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The issue is not whether it is your POV but whether the way you are presenting the timeline is a legitimate to what you've labeled it (a timeline of THP) or whether it is, instead, a biased presentation designed to imply that each publication of the POV in question is a significant part of the history of THP, which it is not.Jcoonrod 08:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
• Indeed. And the timeline is presented in a factual, historically accurate manner. This is an encyclopedia article, not a newspaper article, and historical information is relevant to the reader, if factually accurate.Smeelgova 18:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The problem with this argument is that it could apply to any aspect of THP. The hundreds of steps involved in strengthening local democracy in Bangladesh would be of interest to many readers, as would the hundreds of steps in developing the epicenter strategy in Africa, or the hundreds of steps in developing a non-patronizing fundraising methodology for Third-world issues. There is a specialized audience who I know is very interested in the history of the media campaigns against all organizations with whom Mr. Erhard was ever associated, and Rick Ross's history is a good resource for those people.Jcoonrod 19:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
• Since no counter has been entered to this argument, I will assume it is true and edit accordingly. Jcoonrod 10:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Incorrect. The points in time during which The Hunger Project received heavy criticism from multiple perspectives in the media and the internet are confusing when placed in prose format, and much clearer to the reader when shown in a timeline format. Every single step of the so-called "developing...fundraising methodology" seems simply like a way of trying to skirt the issue that The Hunger Project has received criticism and controversy from numerous reputable sources at numerous points in time. "There is a specialized audience who I know is very interested in the history of the media campaigns against all organizations with whom Mr. Erhard was ever associated, and Rick Ross's history is a good resource for those people." This statement is also skewed towards a positively biased POV. The Hunger Project cannot shy away from its origins and history, and Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training plays a key role in this article's history, origins, development and influences. In fact, if all "specialized audience"s could find necessary information on other proprietary websites, than in point of fact, wikipedia would not need to exist. By its very nature wikipedia will tend to show some information that is already available on other websites.Smeelgova 17:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• For us to proceed to mediation, we need to agree on a truce format for the time being. You (Smeelgova) have asserted that you do not hold a negative POV, yet your record of contributions is exclusively devoted to a prodigious number of insertions of negative material about Werner Erhard and est onto dozens of pages that are all related to Werner Erhard (or which you have created). The insertions and formats that you say are "accepted" are, indeed, recent insertions by you. I have made it clear that I find your timeline approach to be particularly misleading and unacceptable, but have offered other concessions, which you have ignored. My personal POV would, of course, be for a format with none of your criticism, as I find the criticism particularly irrelevant and out of date. But I'm willing to work within the only relevant example I can find NOT created by you, namely, the Unicef page. Like THP, Unicef is an international organization. We have worked closely with Unicef for 29 years. Even your key colleague on your side of this dispute agrees that this is a better format. If you have another non-Smeelgova-created format you would like me to consider as a truc format, please give us a link to it.Jcoonrod 22:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The comment above by the prior commentator seems to be very confrontational, and addresses the user directly in a most negative manner. This does not foster a communal environment of intellectual discussion. The material posted about Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training on this and other pages was and will continue to be posted in a neutral language format, stating only the historical facts of the matter. A negative POV would simply be to state negative opinions RE: the particular article topic, which has not been done to date by this user. Though it is possible that the new "Unicef model" would work without a timeline, it would have to include a new section devoted to the controversy and criticism created by The Hunger Project over the years, including their lawsuits against numerous potential critics.Smeelgova 23:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Smeelgova, I carefully studied the etiquette rules and addressing individuals directly on discussion pages is entirely proper. My only intention is to have the facts on the table. The Unicef model has from the beginning very explicitely included a section on the old criticism.Jcoonrod 11:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Addressing another user directly may be appropriate per wikipedia, but certainly not in the manner in which the previous commentator has addressed the current user. The previous user has made insinuations as to the current user's postings, when all the current user has done is compile information, in an extremely neutral, factual language, from other readily available public sources. The user has not used any individual POV in the writing and language of the contributions. The "unicef model" certainly does not have enough information on criticism, The Hunger Project's aggressive legal campaigns against the media, press and individuals, and information regarding the organizations links and ties to Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training.Smeelgova 14:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The history of your edits to pages which you consider related is a matter of public record, and speaks for itself, and is relevant to the discussion of POV vs NPOV. The version you keep reverting to seems clearly to skewed a negative POV.Jcoonrod 01:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • As does the history of the prior user. This user has not been reverting, but has in fact been steadily contributing more material to a more comprehensive version of all perspectives related to the article, positive and negative, in a neutral manner.Smeelgova 02:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The point of this discussion was to agree to a truce format. I have offered compromises. I have offered a format not devised by me. Neither I nor the only other recent party to this discussion agree with your assessment of your format. Please offer another.Jcoonrod 10:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• I am not aware of this other party. However, there is substantial material to be covered from the various perspectives, and the timeline and various sections on Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training do the job adequately. The "unicef model" barely mentions that there was some conflict, and that Erhard was involved. There is simply no mention of the entire origin factual history, related to Erhard, Joan Holmes, and Erhard Seminars Training, and also to the financial relationship between the two at the outset. It may be true that these events do not still occur today, but they are most certainly relevant to the factual origin history of the organization.Smeelgova 17:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • So - am I to take it that NO other format is acceptable to you other than your own, that you are only willing to work within your own framework during the mediation period rather than make suggestions towards an interim truce framework? I hope this is not the case, but I don't know how else to understand your lack of responses to my questions and requests.Jcoonrod 18:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The timeline section has been changed to a heading Media Criticism & Response. This reflects the fact that the media events are not exactly integral to the history of The Hunger Project operations itself, but rather integral to Media Criticism & Response, an operation to which The Hunger Project devotes significant resources, based on current discussion, & historical letters by previous commentator & legal actions.Smeelgova 18:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, I noticed - again, a unilateral step that I don't find very useful toward finding common ground. I would think using Wiki as a forum to publish your original research into every bad thing that has ever been published about THP (without the responses, apologies or corrections) certainly violates the NOR policy. I would think having your own website would be more appropriate - then Wiki could point to it. Meanwhile, rather than escalate the dispute by encouraging me to post the links to 5,000 independent media reports favorable to The Hunger Project, I implore you to reconsider and enter into an honest dialog. If there is any substance to this recitation of sensational headlines, then the article should inform the reader what that substance is, and point them to a history of it.Jcoonrod 18:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • One more thing - while it is true THP has a policy of not ignoring publication of false and defamatory information, your statement above misrepresents the significance of that effort. You have provided no substance behind your statements about our scant legal history, which I expect pales in comparison to that of most organizations of any size.Jcoonrod 18:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • While I continue to disagree with the format for all the reasons I have listed above, in the interests of pursuing mediation within a truce format, I will proceed to engage with it in hopes of clarifying some issues, discussion of which will be added below.Jcoonrod 20:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the issue here?

What I would like to discuss here is - what are you trying to attempt to achieve with your insertions into this article? It appears that you would like people to know that Werner Erhard was one of the founders of THP and that, as a result of that association, some individuals who disapproved of Mr. Erhard's est program orchestrated some strongly negative media attacks on The Hunger Project 25 years ago. Granted. But to argue that one tiny step in that long-ago negative media campaign somehow has the same weight in an encyclopedia article as a program in Bangladesh that mobilizes 60,000 trained village volunteers seems wrong. And anonymously attempting to harm the reputation of an organization that is helping millions of people overcome hunger and poverty by inventing a controversy that hasn't had relevance or even currency for 16 years also seems wrong.

The Hunger Project is not an "issue." It doesn't have "sides." Like a person, THP has a reputation and that reputation should be based on the contribution it is making in the world. One should not attempt to sully a reputation because you don't like someone in its past.

The rule at Wiki is to build a consensus, and building consensus usually requires stepping back and agreeing on goals.Jcoonrod 18:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, it is correct that "the rule at Wiki is to build a consensus." However, most of the consensus so far seems to be that this article is too positively biased, and needs representation from both the positive AND negative aspects of its history and involvement with various other organizations. If it is "granted" and historically accurate information, then it is most certainly of interest to the reader in an encyclopedic article. What we are "trying to attempt to achieve" is to allow for representation of historical information that represents both sides of The Hunger Project's history and financial structure. Smeelgova 02:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Possible need for Administrator Intervention at The Hunger Project

There is a need for more balance, and both positive AND negative sides to be represented in this article on The Hunger Project.

• (Smeelgova, Descendall, Enkido, Pedant17, Rj, Drzeus, Jmabel),:

Is there a way that we (Smeelgova, Descendall, Enkido, Pedant17, Rj, Drzeus, Jmabel), can go to Wikipedia Administrators to resolve the positively-biased one-sided view that Jcoonrod purports to keep posting up on The Hunger Project, and also complain about his repeated deletions both on the article and discussion pages? Smeelgova 03:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• I, Jcoonrod , would certain welcome resolution of our dispute by the resolution mechanisms of Wikipedia. While there is no such thing as "administrator intervention" there are both mediation and arbitration procedures. I am sure that Wikipedia is not designed to be a forum for casting aspersions on a reputable organization. [added by Jcoonrod at 0243, 30 May 2006]

I certainly consider the "see also" items to be attempts at a guilt-by-association which the facts do not support. [added by Jcoonrod at 0245, 30 May 2006]

• Wikipedia is a forum for discourse, and NPOV. I am certain that NPOV does not consist of a one-sided presentation of an organization, but rather attempts to look at the issue in both a positive AND negative light. At present, The Hunger Project article has too much of a positive-bias. Information that occurred prior to 1990 is still relevant and of the reader's interest. I do appreciate that we are now discussing the issue in a more positive manner, instead of simply deleting other contributors' comments as had been done in the recent past. Smeelgova 03:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is NOT a forum for discourse. It is an encyclopedia. Those who write it on it share a commitment to creating good encyclopedia articles. You have added material not about THP, but about early attacks on THP which is an entirely different subject. Are you willing to participate in the Wiki mediation process?Jcoonrod 13:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• I am removing links to illegally reprinted copyright material and, since Smeelgova did not address my comments about the see also links, I'm removing them again.Jcoonrod 13:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• Material is available in the public space, and the reader will be interested in said material. If someone has another opinion, they should leave said material in the article, and simply add other additional information to it.Smeelgova 16:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Jcoonrod commentary

Smeelgova - I am not convinced that what Oxfam-Canada did or did not do in 25 years ago is exactly a controversy - we have enormous support from the international community. So - I'm removing it and the "see also" section. Also, Joan Holmes was never a manager at est - she was a consulting educational psychologist. And I've removed "see also" as it doesn't link to things that are relevant to The Hunger Project.Jcoonrod 20:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• The "See Also" section is relevant, other readers will find the other linked articles as interesting reads. And as there are no comments after the various links, there is no associated "innuendo", just links to other potentially interesting and relevant articles.Smeelgova 16:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Descendall - I'm going to leave some of your material here for now so that you have an opportunity to read the Wiki policies at WP:LOP which you have misrepresented below, after which we will attempt to agree on what is discussion and what is not. I suggest you remove the more uncivil comments yourselfJcoonrod 16:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• You're going to leave my material here forever. You are not to edit the talk page in order to delete my argument in favor of my version of the article. Do not unilaterally edit my comments. --Descendall 06:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• I concur. Open discussion should stay on the page as part of a viewable record. Smeelgova 07:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Descendall and Eikandal - Somehow, you have come across some false and misleading information on the internet, and you have taken it to be true. It is not. You are acting anonymously and have refused to discuss your specific assertions with me despite my repeated offers.

1. You do not have my permisson to copy my personal website into wiki, which I have removed.

2. You state below that there is a continuing association with est and Werner Erhard, which there is not and I am not aware of anyone claiming that there is,

3. I have also removed your inflammatory personal attacks on me, which are hardly "POV." Insults are not "points of view." As for your inserting Rick Ross's commentary into this article, yes, whenever anyone publishes false and defamatory information about a public charity, that charity has the duty to ask for it to be removed. That is hardly controversial, and it is a specious argument to complain about it. AOL stopped publishing Carol's piece because it violated their policy against publishing false and misleading information.

4. When in the past, people asserted the kinds of things you are asserting in newspapers, The Hunger Project sued for libel and won. There is nothing to hide about either THP's past or present, and I have no interest in doing so.

5. In my 29 years with The Hunger Project, I only know of good cooperation with Oxfam. Our AIDS program in Malawi is funded by Oxfam-Novib Netherlands. Jcoonrod 14:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Deleted additions by Descendall of this article, and comments

Werner Erhard, the controversial founder of The Hunger Project, also founded est, which formed the basis for the techniques used by Landmark Education.

This is absolutely true, and I don't understand how anyone could deny it. Your own personal webpage, which I assume you will soon be editing, openly admits that Erhard founded THP.

Some participants in the the Hunger Project have noted similarities in the philosophies and memberships of the groups.

This is also true. There are scores of webpages run by former THP workers complaining that the groups are similar.

(not true - see above) [Added by Jcoonrod at 1648 29 May 2006]

Like est, The Hunger Poject stresses individual responsibility and "empowerment" as ways to end hunger.

This is obvious. All you really have to do is read through THP's webpage to see that rather than distribute food, they are dedicated to the "empowerment" of people and things like that.

However representatives of The Hunger Project have taken pains to point out that Erhard ended his association with them in 1990.

I think that it's especially ironic that you, a representative of THP, insist on deleting this sentence in order to avoid mentioning Erhard's association with your group.

Even so, suggestions of "cult-like" affiliations continued to circulate, though any precise definition of the term is exceedingly difficult to come by.

"The Hunger Project" +Cult gets nearly 700 hits on google. It's hard for me to imagine that you really deny that there are suggestions circulating.

In 2003, a web page account by Carol Giambalvos of her experience with the project during the eighties was temporarily removed following a complaint from The Hunger Project.

Again, absolutely correct. You shot off a letter to AOL and AOL quickly pulled to plug to avoid being sued.

Elsewhere, criticisms of The Hunger Project have variously been that it is inneffective and bourgeois.

This is the one part of the article that you have deleted that I'm not so sure about. A whole lot of people seem to think that THP is totally ineffective. However, the "bourgeois" thing seems a little out of place. It feels like some sort of Marxist rethoric.

Nevertheless, many well-respected international organizations such as Oxfam International continued to believe that The Hunger Project accomplishes little in the way of ending hunger. The Canadian branch of Oxfam, for example, refuses to endorse any projects that are endorsed by The Hunger Project.

Since you're apparantly the head hancho at THP, you'd certainly be in a position to tell us all if this is true or not. Did the Canadian branch of Oxfam refuse to endorse projects sponsored by THP or not? If they did, it would certainly be noteable for this article.

The Hunger Project is noteable for its strenous efforts to purge criticism of it from the internet and other media. The Christian Century, the fifth estate, Mother Jones, Rick Ross, and AOL have all recieved complains from The Hunger Project for publishing articles on the connection between est and The Hunger Project. The group also regularly edits Wikipedia in an effort to delete negitive viewpoints about The Hunger Project.

The fact that the head of THP is apparantly actually getting paid to use NGO time to engage in an edit war on wikipedia seems to be proof enough of this for me. I also work for a non-profit NGO, and I can tell you that we use every second of our time to do the greatest amount of good, and would never sit around on wikipedia editing articles. As a matter of fact, I'd almost certainly be fired if I was caught doing that. It seems to me to be extremely notable that THP spends so many resources trying to shut up critics rather than trying to get food into the mouths of poor people. Of course, that assumes that you really are trying to get food to poor people rather than to have them sit around and think about how they should be empowered and that if they aren't their hunger is their own damn fault, which is, coincidently, the principal idea behind est.

Deletions on talk page

Do NOT delete my explinations of why I favor my own version of this article from the talk page. Doing so is a serious violation of policy, and if you do it again I'm going to go to the admins. --Descendall 16:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The Wikiquette official Wikipedia policy page reminds us: "Avoid reverts and deletions whenever possible". Pedant17 01:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

• Pedant17, I liked your use of formatting on The Hunger Project, I think the article is finally coming together in a coherent way, and reflecting a more balanced positive and negative approach. Thank you. Smeelgova 02:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks, Smeelgova. I think it may help to separate the bland summary introduction from the past situations and from the current scenario - we can then work on each individually, with fewer clashes about image and reputation. Having a separate history section also gives us a place in which to trace -- in as much detail as required -- how the former situation turned in to the present one. We could do with a lot more citations to follow this. - Pedant17 01:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• On that note, I've added a Historical Timeline section to The Hunger Project article. I've sourced much of the material, and used language that states information in a simple, bland, factual, and NPOV manner. You are correct that we should work on more citations. Smeelgova 03:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Administrator Input

Administrator Input

• There are several editors to this article (Smeelgova, Descendall, Enkido, Pedant17, Rj, Drzeus, among others) who share the view that the article needs to have a balanced, NPOV equal weighting of the positive and negative history to this organization. There is also one user in particular (Jcoonrod) who keeps reverting the article and deleting other editors' contributions, without fully respecting policy. I noticed that you had once edited the article closer to its inception. Perhaps you could take a look at the discussion and history and allow for a more balanced article? I have tried to separate the various views into sections within the article, and provide a space for favorable and unfavorable links to views regarding the organization in the external links section. I also believe that all of the timeline and commentary on the connections with Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training are relevant and of interest to the reader. Thank you so much for your time. Smeelgova 06:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't have the time or inclination to really wade into this, but I'd certainly agree that Erhard and est are crucial to any honest history of the Hunger Project. Is that being disputed? Is he claiming that this is false, or just that for some reason it isn't worth reporting? There is a Mother Jones article from December 1978 that documents the connection well (I read it at the time, it was a good article, worth tracking down), and that at that time est was using Hunger Project as a recruiting tool. Conversely, according to [1] 8 years later MJ conceded that the Hunger Project had severed those ties and was no longer recruiting for est. - Jmabel | Talk 06:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
    • "Erhard and est are crucial to any honest history of the Hunger Project." This is not being disputed, but the placement of this information in a crucial location and evident language is being disputed, as are any links to all of the sources you have cited above, including the Dec. 1978 Mother Jones article, among many other sources. The user has claimed that this issue is also not worth reporting as it is in the past, but many other users have maintained that the full history of the organization, (positive and negative) is definitely relevant. Thank you for the quick response. Smeelgova 06:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
      • "The user has claimed that this issue is also not worth reporting as it is in the past…" All I can say to that is this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Most of our articles are about the past. - Jmabel | Talk 06:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, Jcoonrod seems not to. Smeelgova 06:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Feel more than free to quote me, if that's any use, but this is exactly as far as I'm wading in. Best of luck. - Jmabel | Talk 06:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks for your input. It helps that I am one of many users who share this opinion, and to hear your views on the issue as well is also validating. For now I will continue adding to the article and encouraging discussion on the talk page. Smeelgova 06:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV vs. Balanced POV

• I'm somewhat concerned that some editors think that the way to compromise on this article is to have the same exact amount of "positive" information as "negitive" imformation about THP. I don't think this should be done. No one, for example, would argue that for every ten bad things said about Adolf Hitler, wikipedia is obliged to say ten good things. Wikipedia is supposed to have a NPOV, and saying things like "Here's ten anti-THP links to match the ten pro-THP links" isn't NPOV. --Descendall 02:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • All good points, however I do think to some extent in this issue you can represent both viewpoints for this article. This can hold true most especially for the external links section, where the article can show both favorable and unfavorable links. The reader can then choose where to seek more information external to the article.Smeelgova 02:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Descendall. The framework I proposed, based on the Unicef article, achieves NPOV and the "time line and a million links" format does not. Frankly, if I actually held the negative POV (as opposed to, say, creating a fog of doubt), I would want a Wiki article to clearly state the substance of my POV.Jcoonrod 18:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of agreement to the mediation

• Smeelgova, you have added numerous parties to my application, some of whom have not been active for a long time on this page. Unless all parties agree with 7 days, the application will be rejected. Do you agree that, if they do not agree within 5 days that they can be removed?Jcoonrod 08:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Please follow protocols stated at the top of this page, and post new headings at the bottom of the discussion page. As stated at the mediation page, we will wait and follow the guidelines and guidance of the mediation committee. Perhaps something will change within the time period allotted.Smeelgova 08:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Copyright Infringements

• Those who are organizing attacks on THP from their websites have taken to illegally copying copyrighted materials from publishers who - upon learning that their articles were false and defamatory, or through changing their mind - have denied people the permission to re-publish them. This includes the article by Carol Giambalvo and the articles by David Houkema. WP:LOP requires content that is sourced authoritatively, not illegally.Jcoonrod 18:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • To reference ex-cult Resource Center, "Copyrighted works are made available here under the 'fair use' exception of U.S. copyright law, for research and educational purposes only."[2] Wikipedia is clearly research for an educational purpose. Therefore, the information is valid and relevant to the article and information at hand.Smeelgova 15:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Reprinting a copyrighted article without permission on a website constitutes re-publication - not fair use - and is therefore illegal.Jcoonrod 15:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• "Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as use for scholarship or review[3]." This fits the criterion, and the links are therfore justified and legal. Smeelgova 15:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Do you agree that if a site is illegally reproducing material, that this should not be linked to as an authoritative reference in Wikipedia?Jcoonrod 15:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Please see above reference & quote RE: United States copyright law.Smeelgova 15:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• I am not arguing here that reprinting in full in no way fits the fair use doctrine - the courts have already ruled on that - I am asking whether you agree that if a site is illegally treating copyrighted materials, then it's inappropriate to use it as an authoritative reference per the Wikipedia policies.Jcoonrod 15:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • As stated above: It would be less confrontational for all parties involved to simply debate the issue, instead of addressing individual users directly. Therefore I refer again to the referenced material above, RE: United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material. Smeelgova 15:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Stated more simply, references to copyrighted materials should not be made to copies of that material, but to the material itself - only in that way could references be considered authoritative.Jcoonrod 15:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Restated from above: The links are valid, historically accurate, factual, and used in an NPOV manner. Referenced copyrighted material is legal through referenced United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material above. Reference to copyrighted material not necessarily available in original format on the internet is a common practice among wikipedia articles.Smeelgova 15:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• The links in reference are to highly opinionated pieces by individuals not directly involved, purporting to include facts that have been disputed and proven to be false, copied onto sites with explicit strong agendas and advocating extreme views. In all ways these references violate the spirit and letter of Wikipedia guideline on reliable sources.Jcoonrod 16:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Please see referenced sources above. This links are legal, of interest to the reader, and relevant to the article. Prior statement by commentator regarding opinions of said websites is POV.Smeelgova 22:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, the source you site clearly states that a key factor in fair use is "amount and substantiality" - if you cite a few lines, that's fair use - if you copy the whole thing, that violates fair use.Jcoonrod 10:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Given that the notification for mediation was done in such an odd way, with multiple edits to everyone's talk page, edits that are signed by someone other than the person who actually made the edits, notification given in places other than the bottom of the talk page where they belong, and involvment of parties who have not edited this page in a while, I think that the mediation has been hopelessly fouled up and should probably be abandoned. I'm thinking of actually switching and rejecting it just to give it a quick death rather than sit around and wait for the time frame to expire without everyone accepting, which is what will certainly happen. --Descendall 22:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• As I understand the process, the request was filed correctly - those edits are a required part of the process - and we can also remove those who do not want to participate. There seems to be no rule against adding or removing names prior to the Mediation Committee deciding whether to take on the mediation.Jcoonrod 12:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • As stated previously, I had copied the code for the Mediation notice from the original post (placed incorrectly at the top of my discussion page, but that is irrelevant at this point). Above mentioned users were notified based on their historical postings and potential interest in the discussion at hand. From the participation of at least two individuals not originally notified, there is apparent outside interest external to the two original parties. As for the other users, it is most probably best to wait at least a little while longer to afford them the benefit of the doubt, but I also would not be opposed to continuing the mediation after that with the four parties currently participating.Smeelgova 03:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree - let's give it until end of Tuesday UTC at which point I am willing to do the removals unless there is objection.Jcoonrod 12:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • As stated last week (and without objection) the nonrespondents Rj and Drzeus have been removed from the request. Drzeus has made no contributions anywhere since 2004, and nothing from Rj anywhere since 4/06.Jcoonrod 01:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The status of our mediation request is that it has been accepted, but has not yet been assigned.Jcoonrod 19:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• More information is available at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/The Hunger Project.Smeelgova 03:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Dispute over Categories

• There is no dispute over what THP is - an international, non-profit, charitable organization working in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Therefore any other categorizations constitutes a particularly bizarre method of impugning the integrity of THP.Jcoonrod 19:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you for following proper protocol and adding a new heading to the bottom of the discussion page. Human Potential Movement, Personal development, New Age, 1970s fads, these concepts were all integral to the atmosphere present during the founding of the organization in Erhard Seminars Training. There is no intention of "impugning the integrity of THP", any assumed intention is POV. However, since it can be argued that these categories may no longer presently describe the intent of the organization, I will remove them.Smeelgova 19:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Removing Redundancy

• One aspect of the current article that is particularly easy to remedy is the enormous redundancy. While I consider that a litany of every time someone has said something negative to be, basically, irrelevant and misleading, we can certainly agree that there is no reason to include each incident three times. Once an item is referenced with a link, there is no valid reason to repeat it.Jcoonrod 21:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• By definition, if you put the same information in two places, that's redundant. My objection to the reduncancy is not just stylistic.Jcoonrod 13:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Again, the external links section is not redundant, but simply a different location for the reader to refer to as a reference. The favorable/unfavorable links section is a model used on many other wikipedia articles. The "See Also" section is common on many other articles, and many readers often skip to this section without actually even reading the article. Therefore, this is also not redundant. Smeelgova 13:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The "External Links" section is common practice on Wikipedia. In fact, the external links section often repeats citations made in various parts of a Wikipedia article, in numerous other articles. Take John F. Kennedy, for example. One could argue that each of the external links at the bottom are redundant, for the information is already contained in the article. This is simply another resource for the reader and is appropriate.Smeelgova 21:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • One of my key objections is your timeline of negativity - something that is not common practice at all and which I find horribly misleading. If, for the truce period, you insist on keeping that, then to avoid quadruple redundancy (timeline / see also / references / external links) you need to give something up. If, for now, you cannot give up the timeline then give up either the references or the external links. I vote for the external links, as they are so incomplete as to also be misleading. Either that or I insert my links to hundreds of positive articles.Jcoonrod 10:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, wikipedia is about good content. So I've taken the liberty of doing a lot of copyediting so that you two can focus on that.

• I'm sure there are a lot of articles where references and external links are duplicated, but that's (I think) a historical artifact, not a policy. Within the last six months or so, there seems to be a lot more use of references in wikipedia. Older articles with lots of listed external links need to be transitioned over. The fact that there are articles with both isn't justification for the duplication here.

Here's the wikipedia policy:

An ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed at the end of an article after the References section, and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader, but which have not been used as sources for the article. Although this section has traditionally been called "external links," editors are increasingly calling it "further reading," because the references section may also contain external links, and the further-reading section may contain items that are not online. [4]

• And I flatly disagree that many readers skip to the "See Also" section without even reading the article. The "See Also" section actually had so many subjects that the relevant ones were being lost ("Africa"???- If that article has more than a sentence about THP, its overemphasizing the organization - THP has a budget of what, $10 million per year?). I'd guess there are still more subjects that should be removed as totally peripheral to THP, but I didn't go through the rest to see, I just removed the obvious. Wikification of words WITHIN the article (like Africa gives the reader a CONTEXT for deciding weither or not to go to another article; putting it in "See Also" loses that context (and, again, obsurces subjects that ARE most relevant. (I can't believe there are really more than a dozen subjects that should be in "See Also") John Broughton 14:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • John Broughton seems to have a good model, for the most part, that achieves some degree of balance and NPOV. As for the reference to the "timeline of negativity", this is simply the POV of one user and an inadequate outright characterization. The timeline of events dealing with the criticism and suppression of speech in the media by The Hunger Project through intimidation and legal action is extremely hard to follow. A timeline makes this easier for the reader.Smeelgova 17:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Framing the section on criticism

• The section currently includes a mix of media and non-media criticism, plus an extra section of criticism just above it (but mislabeled) that seems to belong here.Jcoonrod 21:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Agreed as to some of the redundancy, and combined the Subsequent Events section with Criticism section. However, the removal virtually all of the external links and references sections is inappropriate. These sections are not redundant, but instead provide the reader with access to further avenues of research.Smeelgova 05:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Except the links you provide (a) are only relevant to the issue of media criticism, not The Hunger Project generally and (b) all those links already exist in that section - so they are completely redundant and repeating them in another section is misleading.Jcoonrod 11:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The added statement about THP complaints is inaccurate, and has been corrected.Jcoonrod 11:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Again, the external links section is not redundant, but simply a different location for the reader to refer to as a reference. The favorable/unfavorable links section is a model used on many other wikipedia articles. The "See Also" section is common on many other articles, and many readers often skip to this section without actually even reading the article. Therefore, this is also not redundant. Smeelgova 13:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Let's keep discussions in the right section - redundancy will coninue above.Jcoonrod 13:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The insertions that THP staff editing of Wikipedia as a criticism is an improper characterization - had there been more willingness to discuss a truce format, there would have been no need for staff participation. In the meanwhile, the full discussion is available here.Jcoonrod 15:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • THP has never complained about articles describing its association with Werner Erhard or est. Our only complaints are, as stated by us now on the page, have only related to demonstrably false and defamatory statements.Jcoonrod 15:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Carol Giambalvo requested that her personal essay be removed from the web as no longer representing her views and requested that THP remove its rebuttal, which we did. These are therefore inappropriate to include.Jcoonrod 15:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The Carol Giambalvo piece is mentioned in numerous other places on the web, and as part of the fair use policy as discussed in quite detail by us above, is available for mention here. The current COO and VP of The Hunger Project has in fact spent a great deal of time editing the wikipedia article for the past almost 3 years now. It seems a most appropriate statement, and not a characterization to state The Hunger Project staff also regularly edits Wikipedia, in an effort to delete negative viewpoints about The Hunger Project. Certainly one could even put a POV slant on this, but the language used is extremely bland.Smeelgova 17:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • By reverting rather than continuing to edit within your own framework, the previous editor has deleted numerous of my edits without explanation. The only way I now have to recover them is to revert. Please - let us make one edit at a time and comment it and not return to a revert war.Jcoonrod 20:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Under no circumstance does fair use allow full republication of copyrighted articles on the web.Jcoonrod (See [|10 Big Myths of Copyright Explained] 20:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Fair Use Copyright Law has already been discussed at length, please see above. I have NOT "reverted", but rather edited within the framework of the more neutral and balanced John Broughton version.Smeelgova 21:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Well, if you didn't revert, then you deleted without comment numerous additions and corrections I had made directly into John's version, which is the same thing. But I believe the record shows you reverted to just before my edit. I've stopped changing your insertions without comment and I ask for similar respect. As for Fair Use, you have not provided evidence for your false assertions, you've just kept repeating them.Jcoonrod 21:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That is simply not the case. There is a detailed discussion of Fair Use above. As to the various edits, the previous version is more balanced and neutral.Smeelgova 21:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • We need to agree not to revert, but to edit. Do you agree or not?Jcoonrod 21:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• The user Jcoonrod has been reverting for the past 3 years. Surely this user of all must see his complaints as hypocrisy. I, on the other hand, have NOT reverted, but simply maintained a neutral approach through collaboration with numerous other independent editors, who are not employees of The Hunger Project.Smeelgova 21:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Smeelgova, you admitted above going back to a version before my whole series of edits - that, by definition, is a revert. We are hopefully heading into mediation. During this period you and I have struggled to come up with a working framework - not simply revert between them, and I thought we had reached such an agreement with John's format. So - I ask you again - shall we agree to stop reverting during this period or not?Jcoonrod 22:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • This is simply silly back and forth banter, and I resent being personally verbally attacked in this manner, instead of politely debating the issues at hand. I have stated previously above, it is the user Jcoonrod who has consistently reverted over the past 3 years, not myself.Smeelgova 01:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • This is not an attack, it is a question of how we should proceed in a civil manner. The issue here is whether, as we go into mediation, we will follow the Wikipedia recommendations and agree to some terms of a truce. My question is, can we agree that during this period we will not revert over each others edits, but rather handle any changes or additions through edits.Jcoonrod 10:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• I regard said personal verbal mentions of my supposed actions above as a personal verbal attack, which is unwarranted. I will state again (from above), Jcoonrod has been in the practice of reverting numerous other editors' additions for the past 3 years, I have only been collaborating with other editors to create a more balanced and neutral representation of this article for the last month.Smeelgova 17:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Balance in the introduction

• The insertion about criticism in the beginning is imbalanced, so I've added balance.Jcoonrod 14:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The introduction is balanced. There is only a small mention of criticism, and the reader can then scroll down for more information on both the positive history and criticism.Smeelgova 17:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • NPOV means presenting two points of view, not just one. The sequence of propositions - it exists and some people don't like it - is not balanced. The sequence - it exists, some people like it, some people don't - is balanced.Jcoonrod 21:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Perhaps. However, the statement The Hunger Project has been criticised for its methods and associations, as well as its past links to Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training., is factually accurate and correct, and currently stated in a NPOV manner. There is no innuendo in this statement, and the reader can then see below for more detailed information on criticism.Smeelgova 03:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Balance in the history section

• Addition to include brief history of The Hunger Project.Jcoonrod 22:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Completion of list of key participants in the founding of The Hunger Project.Jcoonrod 23:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Addition to include cited/sourced, factually accurate information relating to The Hunger Project's origins in Erhard Seminars Training/est.Smeelgova 17:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Corrections in the criticism section

• The Rick Ross "History" piece is basically not a summary, rather it is an opinion piece in its own right and belongs with the other opinion pieces.Jcoonrod 22:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Titles should not contain all caps.Jcoonrod 22:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• AOL never published an article about THP.Jcoonrod
• Complaints by THP have only been issued in cases where articles are demonstrably false and defamatory. Generally, these complaints have resulted in retractions and apologies.Jcoonrod 23:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Rick Ross history summary restated to state that he compiled factual data from publicly available media sources, in a legal fashion, on his website. Information regarding AOL restated to be factually correct. These complaints have not always resulted in retractions, this is factually inaccurate.Smeelgova 01:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• I have deleted the false statement, "The Hunger Project staff also regularly edits Wikipedia, in an effort to delete negative viewpoints about The Hunger Project" as demonstrably false (a) negative viewpoints are clearly up there in abundance, aren't they? (b) the staff of THP are both able and entitled to state their own reasons for editing the page rather than having their motivation divined by THP detractors.Jcoonrod 01:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Changed to: The Hunger Project staff also spends time regularly editing Wikipedia. I had not authored the previous version of this statement, merely copied it from an editor's deleted version of the article. The statement is now currently factual and NPOV. As far as negative viewpoints are clearly up there in abundance, aren't they? , this is clearly the previous editor's own POV.Smeelgova 05:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• I have deleted above section which had been written by a different editor and copied into the article: The Hunger Project staff also spends time regularly editing Wikipedia. As stated on other pages, I apologize for this action. I have and will continue to focus efforts on citing referenced sources in blockquote citation format.Smeelgova 18:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Disputes in the financial section

• Smeelgova has advanced elsewhere and here the unsupported notion that non-profit CEO compensation averages 1.97% of revenue, but there is no evidence to this assertion.Jcoonrod 22:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Smeelgova has removed the uniformly positive assessments of THP overhead rates by the same watchdog groups she cites elsewhere, I am restoring them.Jcoonrod 22:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The financial information was indeed factually accurate, based on available information from public databases. However, it will be allowed to be removed without dispute. I must note that I personally resent user Jcoonrod personal attacks against individual users, as opposed to limiting discussion to the issues at hand. I, have tried to relegate my personal discussion to debate of the issues themselves, and not actions of individual users, unless personally verbally attacked by them.Smeelgova 01:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The Charity Navigator rating is made up of two parts - efficiency (based on overhead rates, for which they give 4 stars to THP) and capacity, based on growth rates, for which they only give 3 stars and they average this to an overall rating of 3 stars.Jcoonrod 10:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Cited referenced quote from Charity Navigator added back into the main article, subheading on finance:

Joan Holmes, the project's president, was paid $232,010 in 2004.

The Hunger Project financial statistics from Charity Navigator, 2004. According to Charity Navigator:

Compensation for the CEO of this charity is equal to 2.97% of this organization's total functional expenses.

The Hunger Project, Charity Navigator, CEO Pay FYE 2004, % of Expenses - "Show Me.", http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/6427.htm

Smeelgova 17:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

How much Werner Erhard is too much?

• This article is becoming absurdly imbalanced with pointless minutia about one man's early influence in the organization, without ever making a point about why this is important or relevant to the reader. There have been many, many influences on THP - both in the early days and in the past 16 years since Mr. Erhard left the board.Jcoonrod 17:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • This article is finally beginning to represent a balanced view, citing factually correct and accurate sources. There is a dirth of information available in this article and elsewhere on the direct origin relationships that exist between The Hunger Project, and Werner Erhard/Erhard Seminars Training/est. The initial origin factual history of Erhard Seminars Training/est, and Werner Erhard is relevant, accurate, and of great interest to the reader.Smeelgova 17:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
    • To which readers would that be interesting and why, given that Mr. Erhard has had no influence in the organization during 16 years of rapid change? Why would tiny 30-year-old details of that influence be more interesting than, say, our long relationship with Javier Perez de Cuellar or Queen Noor?Jcoonrod 01:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Lynne Twist was indeed a senior staff member, a wonderful person, and she left staff in 1997. She was never Assistant Executive Director. We've had hundreds of staff over the years and are proud of them all. Is it of interest for some reason to include every one of them on Wikipedia? What is the editor's point?Jcoonrod 01:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• tiny 30-year-old details of that influence, this is clearly the POV of the previous commentator. It is important to note in the Erhard Seminars Training, early connections subheading, the cited, sourced, number of staff members who came over from Erhard Seminars Training/est to come and work professionally for The Hunger Project. Proper chronological formatting has been restored, to correlate with factual information relating to origin.Smeelgova 04:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There is no argument that a number of early staff had taken the est training, particularly given the support est provided to help start THP. But still, no statement has ever been made why that is relevant - there are many est graduates in many organizations. I don't think the editor is saying that est is a cult or that there is anything improper with THP having received early support from est so - since the editor has chosen to make no point at all about this information, I will remove it as irrelevant.Jcoonrod 15:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• There is no argument that a number of early staff had taken the est training, this statement alone is certainly very relevant indeed, to the history of the origins of The Hunger Project and its links with Erhard Seminars Training and Werner Erhard. I don't think the editor is saying that est is a cult or that there is anything improper with THP having received early support from est so - since the editor has chosen to make no point at all about this information I will not make any claim, personal or otherwise, to what I think regarding information, because that would be POV. However, I will continue to cite relevant and factual information from other sources. As this information above is integral and vital to the history of the article, it will remain and be restored as relevant.Smeelgova 15:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There is no such thing as editing without a point of view - to be human is to have one and if there is one thing I learned in physics is the only way to be aware of the impact of POV is to be honest about it. For example, the statement that material is "relevant" has an implicit POV. My POV (and I have a very well-informed POV in this matter) is that these details are NOT relevant, are misleading, and certainly should not be taking up so much space in a Wikipedia entry on this charity. As for factual, almost all the references are based on material which is demonstrably false.Jcoonrod 19:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• All of the information included to date is factual, and sourced from reputable references as described above or in the citations in the article. As to relevance, the formative history and origins of the organization as related to Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training is most certainly relevant. Yes, this is my POV and that of several other editors judging from the edit history over the past 3 years. Historically this article did not have enough information on these topics. It is now almost up to a point where it is becoming adequate.Smeelgova 20:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, as we move towards mediation, it might be useful to be able to put into words what constitutes adequate. We now have pages of references to anti-cult activist websites that make the point that Werner Erhard was one of the founders and ealy board members of The Hunger Project, his est organization and the est foundation provided startup support to The Hunger Project, and that people who considered est to be controversial were initially very suspicious about The Hunger Project and its intentions. Does that sum it up? If this a fair summary of this POV?

Jcoonrod 12:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Added reputable, sourced citation/quotes from :

Raising Hell: How the Center for Investigative Reporting Gets the Story., David Weir (journalist), Dan Noyes, the Center for Investigative Reporting. Now this article is beginning to show a more comprehensive version of The Hunger Project's controversial history.

Smeelgova 18:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

From user page Danny

A few hours ago I sent a message to the info team about a libelous statement that has been placed on this entry. Anything you can do to expedite its handling will be much appreciated.Jcoonrod

• RE: above: A few hours ago I sent a message to the info team about a libelous statement ... This is clearly the POV of the previous user. All statements have been properly sourced and referenced with endnotes, from a source (NOT Mother Jones) that duly published said statements in reference to a different article. A NOTE was placed before the reference to alert the reader to its integrity:

  NOTE: Sourced quote from Raising Hell: How the Center for Investigative Reporting Gets the Story., David Weir (journalist), Dan Noyes, the Center for Investigative Reporting

  . The Center for Investigative Reporting is a reputable source. There have been no lawsuits against above source for statements within its work, which comment on other sources that were reprinted properly with permission.Smeelgova 20:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
• I have reverted to prior version by user User:Danny , pending mediation.Smeelgova 00:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Giambalvo article

On 16 June 2006 at 15:15 (UTC) User:Jcoonrod wrote in the Hunger Project Talk Page: "Carol Giambalvo requested that her personal essay be removed from the web as no longer representing her views ..."

This summary of events appears at variance with the way in which Carol Giambalvo continues to make her article publicly available via http://hometown.aol.com/carol2180/author.htm, stating: '"The Hunger Project: Inside Out" (Spiritual Counterfeits Project Journal, Volume 8:1, 1988) and revised, unpublished document. Note: the material published on this site has been removed due to a complaint lodged by The Hunger Project to AOL. Copies of this paper are available by direct request... '

-- Pedant17 07:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for bringing it to my attention. She had removed it from her main page but apparently had forgotten she had the same thing on this page. I'll let her know. She does not email out the document anymore.--Jcoonrod 01:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Early Hunger Project Witness

I'm new to Wikipedia, so please forgive any technical errors.

The Hunger Project has always been controversial. Much of this discussion seems to revolve around removing or minimizing this controversy. To do so would be misleading.

Perhaps I can provide some information as a witness who was involved in both est and The Hunger Project in the late 1970s and early 1980s. While the two organizations were legally separate, in practice, they were so intertwined it was difficult to separate them. Not only were many/most of THP staff est graduates, so were most of the multitude of THP volunteers. Not only was Werner Erhard a founder of THP, he wrote the source document, which was based upon the est ideology. THP was formed by and embodied entirely Werner Erhard's and est's principles and abstractions. est offered, at one time, a "Hunger Project" graduate seminar. The source document was sold at est events, and often referenced in est programs. There certainly was est recruitment associated with THP. I never heard that THP authorized it, but I also never heard that they discouraged it.

I'd encourage THP to provide a copy of Werner Erhard's Hunger Project source document to Wikipedia. "A Transformation: An Idea Whose Time Has Come". The Hunger Project, 1977. Written by Werner Erhard.

I didn't notice any mention in the article of THP's original mission, which was to end hunger on the planet within 20 years, a goal which was not met.

Hope this helps.

--Kat'n'Yarn 04:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)Kat'n'Yarn

Earl Babbie "You Can Make A Difference"

The text of Earl Babbie's book "You Can Make A Difference" is online at his web site and says some interesting things about the early days of THP. I notice it's not mentioned in the article.

http://www1.chapman.edu/wilkinson/socsci/sociology/Faculty/Babbie/e211/BiblioFiles/YCMAD/YCMAD.html

Phr (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Objectives

In each region of the developing world, (HTML COMMENT: exception: the Pacific) The Hunger Project's programs apply principles of self-reliance, gender-equality, local leadership and local democracy to address hunger and poverty.

I removed this section because it sounds promotional, rather than encyclopedic, and because there appear to be doubts about its accuracy. The next section describes the actual projects; if there are any regions of the world missing, they should just be added there. -- Beland 23:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Hunger

This arbitration case is close and the decision has been published at the above link.

• In the absence of challenge, non-controversial material obtained from the The Hunger Project website, http://www.thp.org/ may be included in the article. Such material may be added by Jcoonrod or any other user associated with The Hunger Project. If such material is contested, in good faith, by any other user the material shall be removed unless a reliable published source is available for the information. In this context, a good faith challenge requires some reason to doubt the validity of the information.

• Critical information may be included in the article only if it is supported by verifiable information which has been published by a reputable source. Material lacking an adequate reference may be removed by anyone without discussion. Such removal is an exception to the three revert rule. Critical information shall be attributed to its source and be placed in context, in other words, practices which are alleged to have occurred during the organizational or formative stages of the Project shall be identified as such.

• It is presumed that, using the suggested guidelines we have made, Jcoonrod, Smeelgova, and other involved editors can edit responsibly without sanctions which restrict their editing of this or related articles.

• The Arbitration Committee retains jurisdiction of this dispute and may, on its own motion, or on the motion of a concerned user, reopen it for further consideration.

For the Arbitration Committee. --Tony Sidaway 14:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Post-arbitration cleanup

Per the ruling, I have removed some of the negative comments that lack verifiable references. Jcoonrod 22:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Having looked at your edit, it appears you have removed some comments which do reference verifiable cited published sources. Would you be so kind as to discuss what you've removed point by point? Kat'n'Yarn 01:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I reverted. --Descendall 05:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I standardized many of the references per Wikipedia:Citing sources/example style. Will finish later. Kat'n'Yarn 08:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC) Still working on it. Added Giambalvo article. Kat'n'Yarn 01:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Added four more articles. Still tracking down all the details. All these references are "findable" at this time. Nonetheless, I will find information necessary to make biblio complete, where necessary. Kat'n'Yarn 22:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Evolution of programs section

I tagged this as sounding like an advertisement, because it currently reads like something from a promotional mailing. The same information could be presenting in a neutral way be attributing the various claims to third parties, rather than making it sound like Wikipedia itself believes that the world ignored the famine in Cambodia, etc. This would be easier to do if the section referenced the sources for the claims it makes. -- Beland 23:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I see that the VP/COO of The Hunger Project has removed the "advertisement" tag from this section, without actually changing any of the content. I stand by my original assertion that this section is not neutral. If THP would like this material to be retained, it would be helpful to point us at sources for these claims; probably it will be easier for disinterested parties to find neutral wording and edit for content neutrality and notability. -- Beland 18:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed. Verifiable cited sources and a rewording/editing of these sections would go a long way towards removing the obvious "advertisement" bias from the aforementioned sections, if the material is to be retained.Smeelgova 18:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• I think I'm to blame. I moved the "advertisement" tag to the beginning of the article, because the entire early section reads like a promotional brochure. It would be preferable to see cited information on what concrete accomplishments THP has made, rather than unsubstantiated claims about what it's doing. I also added "fact" tags. Kat'n'Yarn 04:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Confusion over arbitration decision and Wikipedia guidelines

I don’t know if anyone else was confused by the Arbitration decision, and its inconsistency with Wilipedia policies and guidelines, but I thought we should discuss it. The issue of allowing unsourced material from The Hunger Project’s website wasn’t especially presented or discussed during the arbitration, and I hope the arbitrators didn’t realize the result of their decision. This is what is confusing to me:

Remedies: Material from The Hunger Project itself

1) In the absence of challenge, non-controversial material obtained from the The Hunger Project website, http://www.thp.org/ may be included in the article. Such material may be added by Jcoonrod or any other user associated with The Hunger Project. If such material is contested, in good faith, by any other user the material shall be removed unless a reliable published source is available for the information. In this context, a good faith challenge requires some reason to doubt the validity of the information.

However, in a previous section, they also said:

Principles: Adequate references

1) References must be verifiable information from a reputable published source. That means that they must be identified well enough that a reader can potentially find them and locate the material in the reference which supports the information in the article.

Below are some Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and proposed guidelines relevant to the issue:

Wikipedia:Verifiability (official policy)

This policy in a nutshell:

Information on Wikipedia must be reliable and verifiable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed.

Wikipedia:Reliable sources (guideline)

Company and organization websites

Caution should be used when using company or organization websites as sources. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias. The American Association of Widget Manufacturers is interested in promoting widgets, so be careful not to rely on it exclusively if other reliable sources are available, in order to maintain a neutral point of view. Exercise particular care when using such a website as a source if the company or organization is a controversial one.

Wikipedia:Articles about ongoing enterprises (proposed policy)

Remove unsourced or poorly sourced positive material

Editors should remove any positive material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from articles concerning ongoing enterprises. Wikipedia does not accept advertising, or articles which are in effect advertising. See WP:ADS. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Wikipedia:Libel.

Using the enterprise as a source

In some cases an agent or employee of the enterprise may become involved in an article. They may edit it themselves or have a representative of theirs edit it. They may contact Wikipedians either through the article's talk page or via email. Or, they may provide information through press releases, an enterprise website or blog, or a published history of the enterprise. When information supplied by the enterprise conflicts with unsourced statements in the article, the unsourced statements should be removed. When information supplied by the enterprise conflicts with properly sourced statements from reliable sources, both should be noted. See WP:NPOV.

Information supplied by the enterprise may be added to the article if:

• It is relevant to the enterprise's notability;

• It is not contentious;

• It is not self-serving;

• It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;

• There is no reasonable doubt that it was written by the subject.

Notable enterprises

In the case of significant enterprises, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take information from, and Wikipedia articles should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out.

Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (official policy)

Using the subject as a source:

Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if:

• It meets verifiability, NPOV, and no original research policies.

• It is relevant to the person's notability;

• It is not contentious;

• It is not unduly self-serving;

• There is no reasonable doubt that it was provided by the subject.

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not (official policy)

Wikipedia is not a soapbox

Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising. Therefore, Wikipedia articles are not:

1. Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. You can also use Wikinfo which promotes a "sympathetic point of view" for every article. Wikipedia was not made for opinion, it was made for fact.

2. Self-promotion. You are free to write about yourself or projects you have a strong personal involvement in. However, do remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which is difficult when writing about yourself. Creating overly abundant links and references to autobiographical articles is unacceptable. See Wikipedia:Autobiography, Wikipedia:Vanity, and Wikipedia:Notability.

3. Advertising. Articles about companies and products are acceptable if they are written in an objective and unbiased style. Furthermore, all article topics must be third-party verifiable, so articles about very small "garage" or local companies are not likely to be acceptable. External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic (see finishing school for an example). Please note Wikipedia does not endorse any businesses and it does not set up affiliate programs. See also WP:CORP for guidelines on corporate notability.

Wikipedia:Autobiography (guideline)

You should wait for others to write an article about subjects in which you are personally involved. This applies to articles about you, your achievements, your business, your publications, your website, your relatives, and any other possible conflict of interest.

Wikipedia has gone through many prolonged disputes about the significance, factual accuracy, and neutrality of such articles, including one about Jimmy Wales himself [1]. Refraining from such editing is therefore important in maintaining Wikipedia's neutral stance and in avoiding the appearance of POV-pushing.

It certainly seems like the arbitrators decided to apply a double standard. Negative information must be appropriately-sourced, but positive information doesn’t have to be. I think we have no choice but to continue to follow Wikipedia’s guidelines, the arbitration decision notwithstanding. Otherwise, we have no guidelines. If need be, we can ask that arbitration be re-opened to clarify the matter.

BTW, I can’t stand the revisionist history in the article. There are literally thousands of people who were there and who know better, and there was widespread media coverage. Revisionist history doesn’t bode well for Wikipedia’s credibility. I’m working on a well-documented account of the early years (1977-1990) of The Hunger Project.

FYI, someone said they thought THP severed its ties to est shortly after the Mother Jones article was published. That isn’t true. THP probably got its own office about then, but est and the est graduate body continued, overwhelmingly, to be THP’s base of support. I can understand THP wanting to distance itself from Werner Erhard after he became a PR liability, but they’ve not only erased (or minimized) Erhard from history, history itself, but also the contributions of many est footsoldiers. Kat'n'Yarn 04:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Administrative, fundraising expenses section

I began this to put what I guess are Jcoonrod's references into standard format (just call me the maid), but didn't get too far. The CFC and CVC links are just a list of every charity that federal or Virginia employees can give to, and don't give much information when used as a reference source. The Charity Navigator link is a good source, and I'll standardize it. However, this section needs to be rewritten to give more meaningful information, cited and sourced. In the process, I found that Give.org/BBB notes THP does not meet one of its standards, but does meet the other 18 effective ones. This isn't alarming, but the statement "The Hunger Project meets all financial standards of governmental and nongovernmental agencies" should be removed from the section, and the Give.org information noted. As long as there's nothing notable about it, I don't understand any reason to include the CEO's salary in the section. Kat'n'Yarn 05:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, what the heck does THP do?

Charity Navigator suggest 6 questions to ask a charity. Question #1 is "Can the charity clearly communicate who they are and what they do?" I've looked at the Wiki article, THP's website, the reports made, and I can't figure it out.

Okay, THP used to be almost entirely "education and advocacy", and that now accounts for about 25% of it's program expenses.

THP used to be committed to not giving food to starving people, and there's a statement in the report they gave Guidestar [5] that says THP does not give handouts, so that seems to be the same. (Guidestar requires registration, so I can't give a direct link to THP's page.)

I can tell that THP now does some kind of indigenous grassroots programs, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what they are. I keep running into vague terms like "empowering", "training" (surely they don't mean ... ?), and "planning". What, exactly, clearly, without ambiguity, does THP do that leads or will lead to less hunger? Kat'n'Yarn 02:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

• I can give case examples.

Mostly they fall into the following sequence

1. Run a training workshop (THP calls them various things in various countries)
2. Pick people who show talent to be leaders (THP calls them "animators")
3. Give money to act as seed funding for a project. (Some information indicates it may sometimes be a loan)
4. Provide support (THP local administrators) to the "animators"

Examples.

• Africa - THP "builds" epicenters, these house, medical unit, micro bank, mini-school, meeting rooms, food storage, etc
• Bangladesh - THP "runs" workshops on womens rights
• Africa - THP "runs" AIDS awareness
• Mexico - ?? unclear
• Bolivia - Supports a radio station that broadcasts education info
• Peru - ?? unclear
• India - similar to Bangladesh

Areas that are not clear: THP in a lot of thier documents discuss political activation. It is never clear how this is arranged or funded.

• 124.254.88.144 06:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• To User 124.254.88.144 - All very interesting information you provided above, but unless you can cite sources or referenced documentation for this, we most likely can not put it into the article and hope to maintain any sense of reputability. So, any sources? Yours, Smeelgova 07:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC).

• I was not attempting to cite examples. I read through the information I could find on THP and condensed it. I was answering Kat'n'Yarn's question and hopefully giving him a direction to look 124.254.88.144 08:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Oh, well at any rate, any citations/sources you could provide myself or any other editor would be most helpful and appreciated. Yours, Smeelgova 08:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC).

History: "The early years (1977-1990)"

I have a draft section headed "The early years (1977-1990)" on my sandbox, well-documented from published sources, and I think it places events in historic context. In order to keep it concise, it covers only the highlights. Some areas of controversy have been left out, especially allegations of money-laundering (which I have serious doubts about myself) and of THP-related est recruitment (which did occur, but I think it was a matter of naivete). I would have liked to include more information favorable to THP, but I looked at the history section of THP's website and didn't find anything else I'd call a highlight. It's difficult to find favorable published information during this period, other than articles which specifically dealt with THP's celebrities and awards.

The article would have to be adapted to include this section; redundant information would have to be removed. I suggest removing the "Timeline of criticism" section and moving the references to a "Further reading" section at the bottom of the article. The more recent criticism that John Coonrod has attempted to remove unfavorable information from the internet would have to be dealt with elsewhere in the article.

Please don't edit my sandbox. Discuss it here. Calmly.  :) Kat'n'Yarn 03:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Kat'n'Yarn after reading your article I feel the need to clap. Excellent read, it feels right. I personally have a question about the "Hunger feeds it's self" reference and the note about Oxfam Canada. This is mainly due to me, after a lot of checking, being unable to source the artical "Hunger feeds it's self" and the only place that the note about Oxfam Canada not endorsing THP is on a site that does not directly link the note with the artical. It's actually a new sentance. I also note that Oxfam and THP have notes on thier websites about the work they are doing togeather now. Several african newspapers also refer to Oxfam and THP in the same articals. If you can find any reliable reference I would keep it, as I do think it's historic value is required, however I would put a caviate, that Oxfam and THP are working togeather now.
• Mark1800 14:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Added references to THP sites in Financial section

I did this is request to the {fact} request. All websites include an ability to track why they are listed as a charity in the country of origin. Those countries not done are due to me being lasy, someone else can find them 124.254.97.166 08:30, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Hunger Project feeds itself

Can anybody point to anywhere I can find any reference to this artical. The only places this seems to appear are here on wiki and on the RRI website (even then it states something different to what is listed here) In 1985 the McGill daily was a student newspaper with what appears to be a small distribution. IMHO: If we are going to include student newspapers here we clutching at straws. Mark1800 11:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

See McGill Daily:

The paper was first published in 1911. As such, it is one of North America's oldest student papers. Along with The McGill Tribune, it is one of the most widely read student publications at McGill. In fact, it currently claims to be the second-largest student newspaper in Canada, with a weekly circulation of 28,000 as of 2005 (together with its francophone sister version, Le Délit français).

Also see section on Daily's past contributors who have gone on to fame. This is indeed a reputable source, and properly cited at that. Yours, Smeelgova 23:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC).

• All of what you have said is true NOW. At the time 1985, 20 years ago, my research indicates the readership was much smaller. What I was asking is where is the source document. The McGill website doesn't have it. It's not to be found anywhere else on the net. All that we have is a single quote. We have no idea as to the context in which it was written. Also the only other reference (secondary source) to the document is different from what is presented here. Are we in the business of making stuff up? No, we are not. It does not meet the Wikipedia:Reliable sources standard. No Primary source, secondary source is different to what is presented here.
• Mark1800 07:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
• The article is cited in proper format, and yes, is reputable NOW. Should we simply cease citing sources if we can't find the material readily available on the internet? This would negate most sources on all of Wikipedia. Smeelgova 08:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC).

• • I read the Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger and it is clear from the Final decision that the McGill artical should be removed. It doesn't meet Adequate references, nor Articles regarding ongoing enterprises, nor Critical references sections. The section Requesting removal of poorly sourced negative information is clear about what to do in this case. Section Critical references seems to refer to this specific example.
  • Mark1800 13:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

• From Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger :

  References must be verifiable information from a reputable published source. That means that they must be identified well enough that a reader can potentially find them and locate the material in the reference which supports the information in the article.

  As the readership of the McGill Daily had a weekly circulation of 28,000 as of 2005 this should satify this burden quite adequately. Smeelgova 17:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC).

• The readership of the McGill Daily nor the reliability of the McGill Daily as a source is not in question, the artical is not a Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
• Mark1800 23:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

• Mark1800 has lodged a WP:AN/3RR about The_Hunger_Project#Public_criticism regarding Smeelgova. Mark1800 00:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Please place comments on WP:AN/3RR about The_Hunger_Project#Public_criticism here

Interestingly User:Smeelgova has placed a counter claim on the Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR. I am unclear if my initial edit counts. Anyone know? Mark1800 06:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

weblinks that have ref tag to themselves

On this page we have over 20 weblinks that have a ref tag at the end that just link to the same weblink. I have removed the ref tag from the end. It's unnessasary.

• Mark1800 00:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I've cleaned this up to some extent with cite.php. If you're going to remove anything, I would suggest that you remove the weblinks but keep the citations. Weblinks are dynamic; they go dead all the time, and then we lose the full set of bibliographical information. As long as things are actually cited, it we'll always have it no matter what. --Descendall 23:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

This reads like an advert with a bunch of thp.com self-links

And as such, I tagged it for deletion as an advertisement and spam. I tried to tag a specific section that had no citations, but now has TWO in the last few hours, both self-reffing thp.com links as citations.

Is this ever going to end? Why was my tag for deletion undone by an admin? It's an advert...the majority of the links are from thp themselves.

How is this objective OR neutral? Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum 22:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• If I were you, I would not put speedy tags on the article, that is probably inappropriate. Rather, remove the sections of text that you feel are either poorly sourced, or sourced from locations that make those sections of the article read like spam advertising. Then, you and others can rewrite those sections with information from secondary sources, instead of the company's website and information directly from its officers editing Wikipedia, as you have rightfully complained about. Just some suggestions. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 19:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC).

Edits by Thpcomm

I work in the communications department of The Hunger Project and am a new wikipedia user. I believe strongly in the NPOV policy and look forward to working with other editors to ensure this article is accurate, well-sourced, NPOV and consistent with the full range of wikipedia standards.

My first edits have been to update the infotable with the current list of directors and officers, using the correct non-profit organization template. Thpcomm (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a COI issue. --Pax Arcane 02:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I intend to work consistent with all the Wikipedia standards to help this and any other article I edit become accurate, well-sourced and NPOV. As you'll see in the arbitration decision covering this page found at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger/Proposed_decision, editors associated with The Hunger Project are explicitly permitted to edit this page. I look forward to working with other editors to make this page the best it can be.Thpcomm (talk) 19:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the primary activities section to focus on factual statements backed by verifiable sources. I have removed the final paragraph completely based on WP:NOR and Verifiability policies as these statements appear to be unsourced opinions. In the Financial Accountability section, I removed the word “claims” to describe an undisputed factual matter (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_Avoid).

Based on these edits, I have also removed the advertising tag, which I believe is not applicable at this point.Thpcomm (talk) 18:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks good so far. It's refreshing to see independently sourced info on this article and an

editor willing to dig in and do the work instead of self referring links.

I only agreed that it looked good until I found out it just referred to different THP weebsites/blogs insterad of anything substantive. LOOKED good, but didn't work out.--Pax Arcane 21:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• The only edit I have issue with is removal of the word 'claims' in the financial accountability section as the financial info has not been independently verified and still contains self referring links. --Pax Arcane 00:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. The audited statement is independently published by an external auditor (McGladrey & Pullen) and is just posted on the website. Could you look at the link and let me know if you still have a concern?Crystal08 (talk) 21:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but due to COI on your part, I'd need the statement from a secondary source. --Pax Arcane 22:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Revert to previous edits by Thpcomm

I am the user that was formerly known as Thpcomm, and have changed my username to abide by Wikipedia standards (no company names). I am an individual that works in Communications at The Hunger Project (not a role account), and believe strongly in Wikipedia's NPOV and Verifiability policies and will do my best to ensure that my edits meet those standards.

Well sourced edits to three sections of this article have been reverted without any substantive discussion. In the case of the infotable, the reversions replaced accurate verifiable information and an appropriate template with outdated unsourced information and an inapplicable template. The reason cited, "revert COI edits," is not as I understand it a legitimate reason for reversion. Consistent with Wikipedia policies, under the arbitration decision covering this page (Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger/Proposed_decision), editors associated with The Hunger Project are explicitly permitted to edit this page.

I am therefore reverting back to the page with my edits and if any edits I have made do not comply with NPOV or other policies, or the article can otherwise be made better, I look forward to reading and discussing other users' edits. I have stated my affiliation to be open and transparent and am doing my best in good faith to make the article NPOV and not promotional, so I would appreciate if my edits were not reverted based solely on the fact that I edited the article. Please post on the talk page any problems with specific edits.

Crystal08 (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

As you have an acknowledged financial conflict of interest on this article's subject matter - it would be best if you do not edit this article directly, but instead post requested changes for discussion here on the talk page. Let's start with this: Please take a moment to read over WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:NOR. After that, please let us know here on the talkpage if you have any citations to WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources to back up potential changes to be made to this article. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 20:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

As you see they have failed to stop the WP:RS/WP:V, and the initial edit was by a rep of The Hunger Project, I have placed the {{coi}} tag. Any further COI edits will result in AFD of this article. BoL (Talk) 05:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My edits appear to have been reverted without examining whether they are good edits that add reliable secondary sources. Please note that another editor of this page and an administrator have commented positively about these changes, which are non-controversial and have secondary sources.

Reverting edits solely because of COI appears inconsistent with WP policies and the arbitration, which expressly allows editing by people associated with The Hunger Project. The COI guideline states that it “does not require editors with a COI to avoid editing altogether. An editor with a disclosed COI is complying with the guideline when they discuss proposed changes on a talk page and/or make non-controversial edits in mainspace consistent with other WP policies and guidelines.”

The edits I have made so far are non-controversial and well sourced. If you disagree about any of the edits, please examine them or edit them and let us discuss them here rather than simply reverting the article.

I also believe that other sections of the article are not well-sourced and are POV. I expect to post any proposed substantial edits to those sections first to the talk page in the hopes of developing a consensus so that we can get an article that is consistent with WP standards.

I have also posted a request on WP:COIN for editing assistance and look forward to working with other editors consistent with WP policies.Crystal08 (talk) 16:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I have evaluated your edits, and please, if you are affilated with the organization to please stop editing this article due to conflict of interest. And, as far as I know, you are adding sources from your website and not from third-party sources. I've heard of similar projects, but none of them have ever tried to promote the organization via Wikipedia. BoL (Talk) 19:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Brief initial comment via WP:COIN. I agree that the Thpcomm/Crystal08 edits are unsatistfactory per WP:COI; whatever arbitration says, it's bound to raise suspicion if editors associated with an organisation delete sections relating to criticism.

However, I think that the consensus version of the article also needs work for neutrality via rephrasing weasel words. The phraseology "claims" is prejudicial: "states" or "according to..." would be better. Also the section

Observers, even while sympathetic to the stated goals of the Hunger Project, have noted an emphasis on semi-mystical allegations that world hunger will disappear through adoption of attitudes among us, with little hard evidence to support this claim. It has been remarked, too, that while the claimed activities abroad, as listed above, are admirable, the Hunger Project to win public confidence needs to produce more evidence, from impartial observers, that these benefits have actually been achieved.

needs tying to specific quotes and sources. "Observers ... have noted ... It has been remarked". Who noted and remarked, and where? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Gordonofcartoon (talk · contribs) - I removed that unsourced WP:OR-violation paragraph, pending anyone showing some WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources. Thanks for pointing that out, Cirt (talk) 21:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

In my proposed edits, I did my best to improve, in my opinion, a poorly sourced POV article by using neutral language and secondary sources where ever possible. Rather than editing the article at this point, I want to further explain my suggested edits and hope that other users will engage with them.

I added these references to the first two sections.

Future, NEED Magazine, Issue 2, 2007.

Ghanaian Villagers Making Their Way Out of Poverty, The Earth Institute at Columbia University, July 25, 2005.

UN Association of the USA

The Earth Times", by Duane A. Gallop, Posted October 23, 2002.

Hunger Project's animators to create bright future for nation" The New Nation, December 23, 2005.

Girls' Hunger Fought with Cooking Oil" Anna Grossman, November, 24, 2005.

PIB Official Bags Sarojini Naidu Prize" Press Information Bureau, Government of India, September 15, 2005.

Notes to Consolidated Financial Statements", The Hunger Project 2006 Annual Report, page 25.

Prior to these edits, the only sources (other than for the first sentence) cited for the introductory and primary activities sections were from The Hunger Project's website. Another editor of this article commented about these edits "Looks good so far. It's refreshing to see independently sourced info on this article and an editor willing to dig in and do the work instead of self referring links." I also deleted completely unsourced material. Yet, the edits were reverted to the prior version solely because of the COI issue.

I only agreed that it looked good until I found out it just referred to different THP weebsites/blogs insterad of anything substantive. LOOKED good, but didn't work out.--Pax Arcane 21:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The infotable was created using the incorrect template applicable to for-profit businesses and has inaccurate headings such as "Operating Income," an unsourced inaccurate number of employees and does not even have the correct president of the organization. I used the non-profit form, alphabetized names and removed the unsourced or irrelevant entry. This too was reverted in whole.

In the financial accountability section, I removed the word claim per WP:Words to Avoid on a sentence that is a fact not in controversy and I added the clause that that “Independent Charities of America gives it its Seal of Excellence (awarded to less than one percent of charities operating in the US)” noting the source Independent Charities of America.

In reference to BOL's comment: "And, as far as I know, you are adding sources from your website and not from third party sources," The sources that I have used are secondary and are all linked to pieces you can find on the web. Please refer above, dig in and look at them.

I would appreciate if other editors would read the above references, decide whether they are good sources, then discuss on the talk page or make relevant edits on the main article. Please do not simply ignore my good faith contributions or assume that I am trying to promote the organization rather than working to get a well-sourced NPOV article.

Crystal08 (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH PAID COI EDITORS. PEDDLE YOUR WARES IN THE PR SECTOR. --Pax Arcane 21:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Please be reminded to be polite and welcoming, assume good faith, and make no personal attacks.

The references listed above (other than The Hunger Project Annual Report Financial Statements for a fact not in dispute) are to third party sources and not THP websites/blogs as you state in the comment you’ve embedded in my previous post.

Per WP:Etiquette, please do not interweave your comments into the middle of my posts, but leave them at the bottom of the page. I would appreciate your moving the one you just made to that location.Crystal08 (talk) 22:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I responded in all caps. Sorry. But that was pretty diplomatic, as much as you'll get from ex-press. I used to do a job like yours. Your first smattering of edits were as I said, just re-directs. I didn't catch it as the appearance was different. Concerning the edits above, I have no comments. I just don't respond to PR agents, no offense. Good luck. --Pax Arcane 22:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it is appropriate for Crystal08 (talk · contribs), as a public relations person for the company which this article is about, to post potential secondary WP:RS/WP:V sources here to the talk page for consideration. Looking at the above sources, some seem appropriate, and some do not. If I get a chance I'll work some of them into the article, and comment on those that aren't appropriate. Cirt (talk) 01:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Just so everyone knows, although I work in the communications department of The Hunger Project, I am neither a PR nor a press person. I have no background in that area. Thanks for the comments.Crystal08 (talk) 14:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Break 1

That is still, technically, Conflict of Interest because you are communicating with the general public on the article itself. BoL (Talk) 04:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree it is still PR. Technically, the best PR denies that it is PR. But, see WP:DUCK. Quack quack! --Pax Arcane 16:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Request for edits and editors

{{Request edit}} I am an individual that works in Communications at The Hunger Project, and believe strongly in WP:NPOV and WP:V. The article on The Hunger Project as it currently exists is, in my opinion, poorly sourced, POV, and in some cases, flat out inaccurate. Although this page has been subject to an arbitration (WP:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger) that permits me to edit directly, I am hoping that an experienced, neutral editor will engage with the article and these suggested edits and help make the article accurate, well-sourced and NPOV. I also previously put a request for editing help on WP:COIN.

I am posting below what I believe to be non-controversial suggested edits to the infotable and introductory sections of the article, as well as a summary of the key reasons for the changes.

The Hunger Project (THP) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit charitable organization incorporated in the state of California (Reference: Global Hunger Project. Give.org/BBB. February 2006. Retrieved March 10, 2008). The Hunger Project's stated purpose is to empower women and men in the developing world to achieve lasting progress in health, education, nutrition and family income (Reference: BBB: Global Hunger Project. Give.org/BBB. February 2006. Retrieved March 10, 2008). In thirteen countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America, the organization implements programs designed to achieve this purpose (Reference: InterAction). The Hunger Project has made the empowerment of women its highest priority (Reference: The Hunger Project, American Jewish World Service recognized for promoting gender equity, Monday Developments, InterAction, May 20, 2001).

The Hunger Project

Founded	1977
Founder	John Denver, Werner Erhard, Robert W. Fuller
Type	501(c)(3)
Focus	Development
Area served	South Asia, Africa, Latin America
Key people	OFFICERS Jill Lester, President, CEO John Coonrod, Vice President and COO Fitigu Tadesse, Vice President Africa Badiul Alam Majumdar, Vice President South Asia Lena Ariola, Acting CFO BOARD OF DIRECTORS Peter Bourne, Chair Joaquim Chissano V. Mohini Giri Joan Holmes, Founding President George Mathew Queen Noor of Jordan, Honorary Javier Pérez de Cuéllar, Honorary Amartya Sen, Honorary Steven J. Sherwood Sheree S. Stomberg Specioza Wandira George Weiss
Revenue	USD 13,602,409 (2006)
Website	www.thp.org

Primary activities
The Hunger Project's principal activities in each region include:

Africa (Benin, Burkina Faso, Ethiopia, Ghana, Malawi, Mozambique, Senegal and Uganda)
- The "epicenter strategy," which mobilizes communities surrounding epicenters throughout Africa to meet basic needs. (References: Future, NEED Magazine, Issue 2, 2007 and Ghanaian Villagers Making Their Way Out of Poverty, The Earth Institute at Columbia University, July 25, 2005). The epicenter strategy includes a microfinance program, which creates banks that are exclusively owned and operated by women to improve their farms (the African Woman Food Farmer Initiative) (Reference: UN Association of the USA) and HIV/AIDS, education/literacy and food security components (Reference: Future,NEED Magazine, Issue 2, 2007).
- The Africa Prize for Leadership for the Sustainable End of Hunger, which has been awarded since 1987 (Reference: The Earth Times, by Duane A. Gallop, Posted October 23, 2002).

South Asia (Bangladesh, India)
- Training of thousands of animators working for a hunger-free Bangladesh. (Reference: Hunger Project's animators to create bright future for nation" The New Nation, December 23, 2005).
- National Girl Child Day in Bangladesh aimed to change how society views its girls (Reference: Girls' Hunger Fought with Cooking Oil, Anna Grossman, November, 24, 2005).
- Building capacity of elected women leaders in India through workshops, skills training and alliance building (Reference: Girls' Hunger Fought with Cooking Oil, Anna Grossman, November, 24, 2005).
- Sarojini Naidu Prize for Best Reporting on Women and Panchayati Raj delivered annually to three print journalists for outstanding reporting (Reference: PIB Official Bags Sarojini Naidu Prize, Press Information Bureau, Government of India, September 15, 2005).

Latin America (Bolivia, Mexico, Peru)
- The Hunger Project works primarily with indigenous populations in Latin America, directly in Mexico and through partner organizations, ACLO [[6]] in Bolivia, and Chirapaq [[7]] in Peru (Reference: [Notes to Consolidated Financial Statements, The Hunger Project 2006 Annual Report, page 25).

Financial and accountability reports The Hunger Project raises funds, via contributions, in the following countries Australia, Canada, Germany, Japan, New Zealand, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States (Reference: [8]). According to its online report retrieved February 2007, Charity Navigator reports that The Hunger Project's program costs in FY2005 were 80.2% of expenses, and administrative and fundraising costs were 19.8%. (Reference: Charity Navigator). Give.org/BBB reports that as of December 2006, the Project's program expenses were 77% of total, and administrative and fundraising costs 23% and meets all of its standards. Charity Navigator gives The Hunger Project four out of four stars, the American Institute of Philanthropy gives it an A- rating (Reference: Top Rated Charities, American Institute of Philanthropy. Retrieved September 17, 2006) and the Independent Charities of America gives it its Seal of Excellence (awarded to less than one percent of charities operating in the US) (Reference: [http: http://www.independentcharities.org/], Independent Charities of America).

The Hunger Project met the standards to be listed on the 2004 Combined Federal Campaign National List (Reference: 2004 Combined Federal Campaign National List, (Word document, see "Global Hunger Project", item #1436). U. S. Office of Personnel Management. Retrieved September 16, 2006) and the Commonwealth of Virginia 2005 Charity Application. (Reference: CVC 2005 Charity Application Global Hunger Project, Commonwealth of Virginia Campaign. Retrieved September 17, 2006).

Summary of reasons for changes

In my proposed edits, I did my best to improve, in my opinion, a poorly sourced POV article by using neutral language and secondary sources where ever possible. I edited the introductory and primary activities sections to use factual statements backed by secondary sources, where available. Prior to these edits, the only source (other than for the first sentence) cited for these sections was The Hunger Project's website.

The infotable was created using the incorrect template applicable to for-profit businesses and has inaccurate headings such as "Operating Income," an unsourced inaccurate number of employees and does not even have the correct president of the organization. I used the non-profit form, alphabetized names and removed the unsourced or irrelevant entry.

In the financial accountability section, I removed the word claim per WP:Words to Avoid on a sentence that is a fact not in controversy and I added the clause that that “Independent Charities of America gives it its Seal of Excellence (awarded to less than one percent of charities operating in the US)” noting the source Independent Charities of America.

If these edits are made, I also suggest removing the advertising tag, which I believe is not applicable at this point.

I also believe that other sections of the article are not well-sourced and are POV. I expect to post any proposed substantial edits to those sections to the talk page in the hopes of developing a consensus so that we can get an article that is consistent with WP standards. Crystal08 (talk) 16:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments from editors, involved or uninvolved

• Support - very nice edit, well done. Follows wiki guidelines as reinforced in the RfA decision and comment. I see no issues with this edit and support timely realization. Ratagonia (talk) 16:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - If we are going to rework the lead, and the article itself (and the entire article could use some reworking) I'd rather see us move away from any reliance on primary sources. Also, we should focus on only utilizing secondary WP:RS/WP:V sources, and not use press releases and other forms of dubious sourcing. Cirt (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Interesting viewpoint, but articles on living corporations tend to rely largely on primary sources. What secondary sources are likely to be available? There tend to be two types: A: lauditory, for instance a company profile in a business magazine, which regurgitates the primary sources (which is kind of 'fake' secondary); and criticism, which tends to not have any additional facts, but feel free to spew venom upon the subject - again kind of a 'fake' secondary. A quick review of the criticism section of THP shows most of the 'secondary' sources fit this latter category - and mostly are not even close to qualifying as a WP:RS, and should probably be deleted. Do you have any specific comments to make on the content of the proposed new edit? Ratagonia (talk) 06:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm not down with PR work on wiki point-blank, and I agree with Cirt's comments about sources. Crystal08's presence in this article is as disturbing as what's happened resently in wikipedia. Vehemently opposed to press releases as PR that made its way into "news." The edits are dubious and frankly insulting. I'm not being paid to edit this article, either. --Pax Arcane 17:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Perhaps you should go back and read the arbitration decision. Clearly states that while 'auto-biography' is generally discouraged, editors who work for the company that follow wikipedia guidelines are acceptable. Perhaps, Pax, you are having trouble assuming good faith. What do you mean by 'what's happened resently in wikipedia'? Also, would you care to criticize the content, rather than the author? Seems like this would be a part of AGF, something about No Personal Attacks. Ratagonia (talk) 06:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Rat, your arguments are not logical even if they do serve your agenda. It's a nice smokescreen, but it sounds similar to Forum leaders asking you to give up your crititical thinking. Disarming, but noneless disturbing. I have no time for it, though...and I doubt the editors do as well. Jimbo Wales has said consistently he is against paid wikipedia editors, people paid to edit wikipedia. I agree. --Pax Arcane 21:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
      • You know not my agenda, Pax Arcane, my history, nor much of my POV - all of which are largely irrelevant. Perhaps you would like to respond to my arguments, rather than launch a personal attack. User Crystal08 is making a good faith effort to abide by what has been requested, and WE have a good faith obligation to consider the suggested edits as wikipedians. Please re-read WP:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger. While YOUR policy may be to NOT ALLOW PR work on the Wiki, that is not the Wikipedia's policy. The boundaries of this type of edit is clarified in the Rfa, and it makes for good reading. I suggest that WE ALL abide by Wikipedia policy. Incidentally, the name is Ratagonia, it does not shorten to Rat. (and I added an asterix to your response, to extend the indentation for clarity). Ratagonia (talk) 06:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Ratagonia, I was tired of your baseless accusations a long time ago. I'm asking you to politely stop and please stop this passive-aggressive, condescending tone. This conversation is over. --Pax Arcane 06:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose per Cirt. BoL (Talk) 00:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
• Support. KleenupKrew (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Infotable edits

{{Request edit}} In an effort to get us into discussion about the actual substance of the edits, can I make a proposal that we start small - with a focus on the infotable?

The one that is in the article currently is: (1) a for-profit company template; (2) lists the incorrect president of the organization and outdated members of the board of directors; (3) includes inaccurate and inapplicable information about revenue and operating income; (4) includes an inaccurate number of employees; and (5) is not alphabetical.

The one I created in the above requested edits section is for not-for-profit organizations, has the updated President and CEO and current list of board of directors, and is alphabetized.

If anyone thinks that the one that exists there now is better in any way than the proposed version, please discuss it here.

If any editors agree that the proposed version is better than the one that is currently on the article, I encourage you to please make that edit. Crystal08 (talk) 20:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: If the infotable is inaccurate, I think it best to cut it down to a more succinct version, and try to rely solely on WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 05:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
  • How would you view basing the table information on Charity Navigator http://charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6427 and using the thp website for primary-source things like officers and who sits on the board of directors (which, I hope we can agree, is something the thp website can be considered an RS for). Ratagonia (talk) 16:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Primary activities section

What's with all the use of "claims"? And why the tag that it reads like an advertisement (apart from the "claims" language that ensures it does anything but)? The organization's own descriptions, with the article making clear that this is what they are, are an acceptable source for this one section, are they not? There seems to have been an overcompensating reaction to fears the encyclopedia is being undermined by PR, and the article now reads as massively imbalanced. Our response to editors who declare their COI and profess to follow our policies and guidelines should not be for other editors to disregard our pillars, circumvent other policy (the unnecessary "courtesy links" to copyvios in other sections) and ignore our guidelines. 86.44.28.186 (talk) 17:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

requested edits to history section

{{Request edit}} In October, all organizational history of The Hunger Project was removed from the section that is currently labeled “History.” All that is now left is the listing of every sourced, poorly sourced, and unsourced criticism of the organization. I am posting suggested edits below to make an article that is well-sourced and NPOV (to see the version that was removed, see: [9]).

I would like to suggest the following edits be made:

1. Public criticism should appear in its own section (not underneath history, as it is not organizational history). Because “criticism” is POV, I request that the section be titled “Public Perception” to reflect a more NPOV.

2. Immediate removal of unsourced and poorly sourced statements. The section that is there now has numerous statements that are poorly or completely unsourced and should be removed immediately.

A. Items that are unsourced:

Since its inception, there has been criticism of The Hunger Project by the public and the press.

the organization's original ties to Werner Erhard, Erhard Seminars Training, and their philosophies.

The Hunger Project has responded to articles it considers false and defamatory by sending letters threatening legal action, and in some instances undertaking legal proceedings, resulting, in some cases, in apologies, correction and payment of damages.

the lack of available, third-party, non-corporate information to verify its claims.

The following section violates WP:NOR and is unsourced. Additionally, Carol Giambalvo and Rick Ross are not W:RS, particularly in this case given that it is a controversial issue. Also, I am not sure whether the fact that The Hunger Project complains when articles are published that they consider to be false and defamatory should be considered as a criticism of the organization itself.

Mother Jones, the The Christian Century, the fifth estate, Carol Giambalvo, Rick Ross, and Jim Provenzano have all received complaints from The Hunger Project for publishing articles that The Hunger Project considered to be false and defamatory.

...the Hunger Project has reacted strongly against other reporters who have attempted to cover the group's activities. Pat Lynch, then an NBC News reporter, stated that the Hunger Project carried out a four-month campaign to discredit her while she was preparing what eventually became an NBC Evening News segment in 1980. And when Dan Noyes was asked by a radio station in 1983 to participate in a program with a Hunger Project spokesperson, the organization refused to appear. Instead they requested a tape of the program with Noyes alone for review by the group's lawyer.

B. Items that are poorly sourced: The following statements cite self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources that are not acceptable per WP:V and WP:RS, particularly in the case of controversial issues and per WP:BLP, which applies to The Hunger Project based on the arbitration decision [10]. I request they be removed immediately:

the focus of the Project (1977-1990) on public education and advocacy, rather than providing food and other direct action

recent activity of The Hunger Project to remove critical articles from the Internet.

Per WP:RS, when adding contentious biographical material about living persons that relies upon news organizations, only material from high-quality news organizations should be used. Thus the following statement was printed by a college newspaper and can not be found anywhere else and should be removed immediately:

On May 30, 1981 the board of directors of Oxfam Canada passed a resolution which stated they would not endorse any activities or programs sponsored by The Hunger Project, nor would they accept funds from the project.

3. Restructuring of timeline

I request that the entire timeline be removed as all it does is re-list the references that are being used to substantiate the previous comments. I would request, instead that a summary of the criticisms within sources that follow WP:RS is outlined, with references to those sources (instead of listing them in the main article). For example, a suggested edit would be:

The Hunger Project has been criticized for its original ties to Werner Erhard, Erhard Seminars Training, and their philosophies and the early focus of its work (1977-1990) on public education and advocacy rather than providing food and other direct action.

The reliable sources to this statement, as I see them, are: Newsweek, Mother Jones, Los Angeles Times, Seeds Magazines, New Internationalist, Forbes, The Gazette, Christian Century, and SCP Journal.

Moreover, I would request, in order to present a more NPOV, that a statement that indicates that The Hunger Project has been praised for its efforts to end hunger be included, with links to the below references:

Ghanaian Villagers Making Their Way Out of Poverty, The Earth Institute at Columbia University, July 25, 2005.

“Halving hunger: it can be done,” UN Millennium Project 2005, Task Force on Hunger, United Nations Development Programme (Earthscan 2005).

The Hunger Project, American Jewish World Service recognized for promoting gender equity, Monday Developments, InterAction, May 20, 2001.

Future, NEED Magazine, Issue 2, 2007.

Women Empowerment Brings Social Change in Many Palani Villages, The Hindu, March 24, 2008.

Hunger Project's animators to create bright future for nation, The New Nation, December 23, 2005.

Girls' Hunger Fought with Cooking Oil, Anna Grossman, November, 24, 2005.

“First batch of Indian elected women representatives graduates from Aagaz,” Geetha N. Bhardwaj, OneWorld South Asia, November 13, 2006.

“Edumadze Lauds Hunger Project,” Ghanaian Chronicle, AllAfrica, Inc., March 30, 2005.

“Awards for Ghana president and Benin agriculture specialist,” Agence France Press, October 4, 1993.

4. I also suggest that we remove the governance and administration and individuals section as this is redundant to what is included in the infotable.

Suggested New History Section

I do think it would be beneficial to also include an organizational history section in the article, and have put some suggested statements with references below.

The Hunger Project was founded in 1977 by John Denver, the entertainer; Werner Erhard, founder of Erhard Seminars Training, and Professor Bob Fuller, former president of Oberlin College. Erhard served on the board of The Hunger Project until December 1990 and Denver served on the board until April 1993.

Hunger for Justice, Dann Dulin, A&U Magazine: America’s AIDS Magazine, October 2007.

Newsweek, The Hunger Project Feeds Its Coffers

In its early years, The Hunger Project’s focus was on raising public support and money in the fight to end hunger with “education for action” programs throughout the United States and a documentary on hunger in Africa featuring such celebrities as John Ritter and John Denver.

Newsweek, The Hunger Project Feeds Its Coffers

Abroad at Home: Mankind was my business, Anthony Lewis, The New York Times, December 25, 1980.

Nationwide Crusade to End World Hunger, John F. Dunn, The New York Times, October 6, 1985.

During that period, it was active in the formation of InterAction, the largest coalition of U.S.-based international nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) focused on the world’s poor and most vulnerable people, in 1984.

Experiences, governance and relations of Interaction, Portal of National NGO Platforms, September 22, 2007., InterAction

The Hunger Project held a media campaign in 1980 to aid Cambodian refugees, raising close to $1 million divided among 18 traditional hunger relief organizations including CARE, Save the Children and UNICEF.

Newsweek, The Hunger Project Feeds Its Coffers

In 1990, The Hunger Project began programs on the ground in the developing world. {citation needed}

In 1991, The Hunger Project launched the epicenter strategy in Africa based on its strategic planning-in-action methodology.

Mesqan epicenter: center for mobilizing rural communities, Groum Abate, Capital, Vol. 10, No. 479, Sunday, February 17, 2008.

The Hunger Project-Bangladesh was also founded in 1991.

Bangladeshis Die from ‘Persistent Hunger’ Every Day: Report, Xinhua News Agency, November 15, 2000.

The Hunger Project expanded its programs to Latin America in 1997.

Puerto Rico Profile: Raul Julia, Puerto Rico Herald, February 11, 2000.

The Hunger Project launched the African Woman Food Farmer Initiative in October 1999 to provide credit to women food farmers in Africa.

Africa-at-Large: Africa’s Low Food Production Due to Marginalisation of Women, Jerome Hule, Panafrican News Agency, AllAfrica, Inc., April 27, 2000.

I welcome the help of other editors in immediately removing unsourced and poorly sourced statements. I hope that other editors will carefully review these suggested edits and sources, and implement the edits they feel are good and meet WP policies and guidelines. If you disagree with anything or have any questions, I look forward to discussing them here on the talk page. Crystal08 (talk) 19:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Publications

This article used to list published publications and they have been deleted. Publications are a factual matter and are an important record for most topics. I believe "Ending Hunger: An Idea Whose Time Has Come" should be mentioned. I'm unsure if the "Source Document" was publically published or an internal document - it looks like a book but it's hard to tell. Any objections to including a Publications section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.247.242 (talk) 07:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hunger Project Formation - John Denver

This needs a chapter. John Denver in the early days lent a lot to helping this aid org move forward. I will start a histry section. Forget the past and all the deletes from this page. Edit: John im on ypur side —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.247.242 (talk) 12:34, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Improving this article

This article appears to be full of rather scrappy non-sequiturs. Surely there's some reliable information available about what this organisation has been actually doing lately and what results they have been getting? DaveApter (talk) 14:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

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