Talk:Twelve Tribes communities

Needs cleaning

This wiki page is in need of some major editing to fix poor grammatical mistakes.

70.153.145.74 (talk) 02:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced, moved from article to talk page

Origins and History

The origins of the Twelve Tribes movement can be traced to small meetings held in the home of Elbert Eugene Spriggs and his wife Marsha in the early 1970s in Chattanooga, Tennessee. In 1972, the Spriggs began a ministry for teenagers called the "Light Brigade." Around this time, members of the "Light Brigade." THe Brigade began to live communally while operating the first Yellow Deli which served three primary functions: creating revenue for the group, evangelism, and mentoring new congregants. . Until this time, Spriggs' group had not been a separate denomination, instead affiliating itself with several different local churches and denominations. However, this changed after Spriggs went to church one Sunday only to find the service cancelled due to the Super Bowl. The group then began having their own meetings on Sunday in a park, began calling themselves the "Vine Community Church". The Church grew with several over churches started in Dalton and Trenton, Georgia, Mentone, Alabama, and Dayton, Tennessee as well as a second in downtown Chattanooga. The Areopagus, in 1978 opened with a stage, loft seating, offices, and a recording studio.Rewritten with sourcesWeaponbb7 (talk) 20:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

During this period, the church came under suspicion by mainstream Christian groups and anti-cult groups. This opposition resulted in a series of attempted deprogrammings of Twelve Tribes members.expanded/rewritten with sources Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Around the time the climate turned negative in the South, Spriggs was invited by a group of disenchanted Christians in Vermont to bring a demonstration of the life they had seen down south to their northern township. The entire community in the south sold their businesses and homes and moved their base of operations to Island Pond, Vermont in 1978 through 79 calling themselves The Northeast Kingdom Community Church. (That area of Northeastern Vermont is called the Northeast Kingdom.)Rewritten with sourcesWeaponbb7 (talk) 20:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The community in Island Pond grew in size. Two German men joined the group, but their visas expired. In response, the group sent members to return to Europe and seek a place for a community. They wandered for a year, seeking a home, calling themselves the "Little Flock". Eventually, a woman named Tabitha offered a chateau, which became the first community in Europe. The chateau in Sus, France is called "Tabitha's Place". The group continued to grow during the 1980s and 1990s, opening branches in several different countries, including Canada, Australia, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Argentina, and the United Kingdom. Weaponbb7 (talk) 16:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Around the turn of the century, the communities in the United States spread from New England to the West Coast and to the South. Many of the original members from the Southern United States returned to their home states to begin communities in Chattanooga, Savannah, Georgia, Brunswick, Georgia, and Asheville, North Carolina. Then in April, 2008, the community in Chattanooga opened a new Yellow Deli, nearly 30 years after leaving the city.Weaponbb7 (talk) 02:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Beliefs and practices

There are many distinctions between the Twelve Tribes and Christian fundamentalism. For example, the Twelve Tribes believe and teach that denominations or divisions remove a church's validity and insist that the true church will be undivided in reality. Christian fundamentalism allows for differences and denominations in the non-essentials, and believe that the unity of the church is mystical, unseen, and unassailable.

The Twelve Tribes do not consider themselves part of any organized religion as such they do not view themselves as belonging to Catholicism, or any of the Protestant denominations of Christianity. They believe that the church changed considerably over the first two hundred years of its life, lost its love, and ceased to be a true church. They believe that since apostolic times, Christianity never returned to its foundation, but became more and more corrupt. Separating themselves from all other organized religions, the Twelve Tribes consider themselves to be the beginning of the restoration of original pattern of the church.

The group believes that humans are living in the end times, and that a faithful and pure church must be restored before Christ returns.

The group's teachings extend to the family and society. Wives are to respect and to be submissive to their husbands, while husbands should love and cherish his wife above all earthly things. Children should honor and obey their parents as their supreme authority. Homosexuality, sodomy, divorce, adultery, fornication, child abuse, gambling, alcohol, drugs, and pornography are all viewed by the Group to be sinful activities, which are given up when a person becomes a disciple. Respect, hospitality, and hope are extended to all people, regardless of past incidents. Could'nt source anything here just rambling crap Weaponbb7 (talk) 23:00, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Controversies

The group has garnered controversy since their beginnings in the 1970s. Accusations by the anti-cult movement and Apostates have caused incidents of vandalism on property owned by the group and assaults on members.

The group first aroused controversy because of accusations of child abuse, and later, child labor in their cottage industries. The most notable event was the 1984 Island Pond Raid. Anti-cult workers, Galen Kelly and Priscilla Coates, collected information from ex-members and provided this information to media and government agencies. In 1984, Vermont State authorities executed a full-scale pre-dawn raid of the 13 Twelve Tribes houses in Island Pond, Vermont, seizing all of the children. The search warrants contained no names, but gave permission to the police to seize all children in the specified locations as evidence. The case was dismissed the same day as the raid was unconstitutional.

In England, a report from The Guardian accuses the Twelve Tribes of being racist and anti-Semitic, quoting an article published by the group. The article states that "murder is the very crime which the Jews are still cursed for" and that "multiculturalism increases murder, crime and prejudice".

The Twelve Tribes deny charges of racism or Anti-Semitism, stating that they "look back to the Semitic roots of our faith with gratitude". They also have members of many races and cultures in their community, and a number of African-American members are also leaders in their communities. The Twelve Tribes encourages use of the Hebrew language, as a large number of member were Jewish or of Jewish background.

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Unsourced, moved from article to talk page. Cirt (talk) 20:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

can't find independent source for much of the third paragraph in history, but seems Written specifcally by the Tribes leaving out for now. Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

• cant find anything for much of the fourth Paragraph Weaponbb7 (talk) 02:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

* Most Beliefs and practices easily verified needs expanding based on the outlineWeaponbb7 (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Reviving old talk page subject For Proposed Restructuring of Page Article

Revived by Weaponbb7 (talk) 03:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

1. Neutral Introduction

 a. use logo of Crown with 12 stars, the TT would proably be happy to provide fair use
 b. Include estimated membership (why this is currently stuck in the middle of the page idk)

2. Undisputed History

  a. Spriggs moves to Chattanooga
  b. light brigade
  c. Yellow Deli
  d. sychism with local churches
  e. Anti-cult movement alleges brainwashing and conducts deprogramming 
  f. Move to Vermont.
  g. Island pond raid (Neutral three sentences expand in Controversy section )
  h. planting of world wide communities 
  i. Steve wooten (Neutral One liner expand in Controversy section )
  j 2001 Child labor controversy(Neutral One liner expand in Controversy section )
  k. Return to Chattanooga

3. Indisputable Beliefs/Practice/ (Focus on Verifiable Doctrine promoted, maybe criticism of doctrine)

 A. Beleifs 
   a. name of Yahshua ( sourced criticism of hebrew spelling and pronunciation permittable ) 
   b. Restored Isreael/ one true church (in just about every freepaper they publish)
   c. justification Communal living and common purse (Book of acts and Rich young ruler)
   d. end times belief 
   e. Shabbat and Sabbath on saturday 
 B. Practices
    a. Standard of Dress (Easily sourced in pratically every article ever written about them)
    b. taking of hebrew names
    c Kosher diet
    d. Israelli folk dancing
    e. Child rearing
    f. Rejection of negative influences (TV, Outside music, Perceived immorality )

4. Business/outreach

 A. Bussiness  
      a. Purpose To Provide income/serve as outreach
      c. List Notable operations (Boj Construction, Maté Factor, organic farms, Yellow deli, Commonsense Products,)
  B. Outreach
      a. Peacemaker bus
      b. Peacemaker Marine
      c. Events, (nicodemus by night, rap sessions, open forum, M night)

5. Criticism/controversy (Critical to remain sourced the only permitable acusation are sourced from credible article (not editorial) and repsonse to the critism can only come from official statement from TT such has found at http://www.twelvetribes.com/controversies/spoken-against.html

 a. Target of Anticult movemen/notable critics/Nierr
 b. ISland pond raid
 c. 2001 Cottage industry scandal
 d. Racism 
 e. Judaism
 f. homosexuality
 g. German Home Schooling
 h. Steve wooten incident
 

Suggestions are Welcome, need to Rewrite artilce is critical Weaponbb7 (talk) 16:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC) FWIW, there seems to be agreement to merge Yellow deli to this article. Will Beback talk 17:55, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey Guys Currently working on it at User:Weaponbb7/SandboxWorkshop welcome to join! Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

My improvements on hold for now (and have been for a while)

Hi guys my improvements are on hold (and have been for a while) I no longer have access to Newsbank so its on pause for now. will start impovements again when i get access Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Article title

is "Twelve Tribes Communities" a proper noun? I don't see it used anywhere in the article itself. How did we choose this title?   Will Beback  talk  00:05, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I made the move (admittedly unilaterally) as the former title "Twelve Tribes (new religious movement)" was probably the longest discombobulate in Wikipedia. Which some had previously just used "Twelve Tribes (movement)" which didn't go over well as it got moved back to "New Religious Movement."

Then I ran into WP:ON and it clicked i did a search Savahnna Now, [Offical Site], PR article, North county times anti-cult site [http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes18.html another anitcult site all use the term so it seemed appropriate to get rid of the annoying discombobulate. Weaponbb7 (talk) 01:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for those sources. I see:

• "Parents in the twelve tribes communities spank their children in love according to the word of God.[1]
• He and his wife reportedly shuttle between estates near Twelve Tribes communities in the U.S., France and Brazil and live in considerably better conditions than do their flock. [2]
• Former members of Twelve Tribes communities in other states have said child discipline can extend far beyond the light spankings officially endorsed by group leaders.
• The Twelve Tribes Messianic Communities are approximately 25 communities ranging in size from 30 to 120, on four continents.[3]
• Twelve Tribes communities around the world, roughly 45 in all, operate independently under the same beliefs and system of governance.[4]

So it does not appear to be used commonly as a proper noun ("Twelve Tribes Communities"). I suggest either moving it to "Twelve Tribes communities", or to "Twelve Tribes Messianic Communities". Both of those are supported.   Will Beback  talk  01:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

ah tricky Capitalization, I originally moved it to that but it bothered me (As I like uniformity) so I moved it to the capitol "C." I agree with you WP:MOS has alway been a tricky point for me Weaponbb7 (talk) 13:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

As for WP:ON, I never found this title in the official website you linked. Maybe it was in a subpage somewhere, but I didn't see it.   Will Beback  talk  19:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Got it! its an algorithm alteration because i when i google "Twelve Tribes Communities" and alters it when i do "Twelve tribes". Hmm. that murkies the case but it is worth noting "Jean "havah" Swantko Wiseman" of the PR article is their lawyer and married to the "allleged" second in command.(I say alleged because the totem poll purported by some sources contradict the Pyramid presented by scholars) So I still stand by the title on that alone. Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

You lost me with that response. What title are you standing by, and why?   Will Beback  talk  20:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry kinda just started spewing raw thought Weaponbb7 (talk) 12:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

If there's no objection, I'll move it (back) to "Twelve Tribes communities".   Will Beback  talk  10:28, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I concur. Weaponbb7 (talk) 12:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Done.   Will Beback  talk  21:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Photo

Yahshua, is also clothed in white with a red sash symbolizing his blood In the photo is a man wearing a black sash. Typo or wrong photo?Overseer19XX (talk) 14:03, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

its been something I been getting around to fixing but right now is rather busy semester. The Resident Anthropologist (Talk / contribs) 22:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Can you clarify what way it should be?Overseer19XX (talk) 12:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed the inaccurate photo and caption, feel free to reinsert a photo matching the caption, or a caption that matches the photo. As i am unsure what one is incorrect.Overseer19XX (talk) 08:08, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

My mistake! Sorry. But maybe some more explanation?

Hi, everybody. This is the first time I've edited an article and I guess I've broken some rules. Sorry! I have a good deal of experience with this group and I thought the article would benefit by a link to an excellent website by former members:

http://www.twelvetribes-ex.com/

I read the reasons that this link was taken down, but I'm afraid I don't fully understand them since there are many links to propaganda pages written by members.

Anyway, I love Wiki, use it all the time, and want to abide by the rules, so if someone could help me out on why the link was taken down?

Thanks! Bruce JohnsonJohnsoba (talk) 03:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Review WP:ELNO Specifically #11 The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:51, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

The information on the Twelvetribes-ex site is from a former member and is accurate. Since there is a growing population of former members of the TwelveTribes who can confirm that the information is factual how is that person then not regarded as a kind of "resident expert"? The article continues to rely heavily on what the group provides as a public image while disregarding information provided by those with extensive direct experience living within this group. The neutral point of view of the article is obviously invalidated and it continues to read more like one of their self published pamphlets. The link should be restored for the sake of balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.181.3.219 (talk) 19:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Raid info

Being lazy here, does anyone have info related to the raid that could be added, the article details more about the reaction to the raid than the raid itself. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 18:11, 18 July 2011

Or is that all what's being talked about in the history section? Hmm.

When I wrote this awhile back I tried to separate out the commentary on the raid from the raid itself. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense.. it wasn't apparent on the first read if the two incidents were the same. Perhaps sub-categorization of the history? Or would that just add clutter? 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

It's difficult and kinda a judgment, I hope one day the raid can have its own article. I added most the bare bones of what sourcing is available on it. I talked with Susan J. Palmer a while back and she is publishing a book in 2012 (assuming its not pushed back) that would give enough material for it's own article. The raid is interesting on multiple levels mostly because the history post-raid. The masterminds behind it Priscilla Coates and Galen Kelly developed the model for the raid and the model has been used a number of times since most recently at the YFZ Ranch. Hopefully We can spin it out then. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:26, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Central Doctrine

Probably one of the most important and notable doctrines of this religion are that you must sell all your things, donate to them and move into one of their communes. Otherwise the plan of salvation is not available to you. I tried to add info to reflect some of this teaching. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 19:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

mm thats a incorrect though common misconception. Here at Wikipedia we require that material be verifiable and unsourced material may be removed.The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

How do we handle church doctrine then? If the church is not all that notable and thier doctrinal publications are sparse what is the president for citation? The teaching of Spriggs I'm working off it is this:

"The Bible is not sufficient to lead someone to God. They must have a sent one from the Twelve Tribes/Messianic Communities to proclaim the gospel to them. Also, there is no salvation outside the Messianic Communities." In a sermon called Ambassador, by Spriggs.69.245.72.101 (talk) 03:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Just as an aside I asked a TT member if you'd go to hell if you don't live on the commune. They didn't want to use the word hell but they affirmed that the doctrine was true that you have to live on the commune. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 03:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's another example http://www.twelvetribes.com/pdf/freepapers/it-takes-a-community-2nd.pdf this publication demonstrates that salvation is found living on one of their communes and can not be found in other churches that don't live on the commune. It's not a notable publication but it's another example of their own words of their doctrines. With that said, are we really waiting for their doctrines to be published in NewsWeek? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.72.101 (talk) 03:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Dress code is mentioned in this book published by a TT member: http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47471.htm?cache — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:02, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's another book, detailing differences in religious movements, this author notes the distinct belief that the Twelve Tribes believe their communes to exclusively be the Body of Christ... this is important because it demonstrates thier belief that salvation is only offered to members of the communities. http://www.scribd.com/doc/47306901/Cu1ts 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:10, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

http://www.twelvetribes-ex.org/whyileft.html I know that if the religions own site is not reliable than neither will the site of the person who lists the reason why he leaves... nevertheless, here are the doctrines that are all listed including dress code and salvation only to community members. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

http://www.boulderweekly.com/article-5583-father-son-holy-toast.html This article notes the website statment that new members get a new place to live, a new haircut , a new master, etc.. lots of church doctrine is repeated here as well. Hoodathunk? 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:41, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

"All of the men grow beards and none of the women are allowed to cut their hair." From a Boston University writer at http://blog.tonic.com/from-commune-to-college-one-young-womans-road-to-independence-samantha-brosseau/ 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

http://yattt.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-would-like-to-share-story-of-brother.html Another site full of doctrine presented by ex-members, probably not notable but there it is. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Here is an article from their page on giving up personal property. In it is also claims that every church and pastor outside the communes has failed. http://www.twelvetribes.com/new/articles/come-together?page=1

Members must give up personal property http://www.gazette.com/articles/twelve-45677-tribes-springs.html

Members must literally give up possessions and live communally to follow Jesus. All money earned goes to the organization. http://coastalsenior.savannahnow.com/intown/2008-04-04/faith-communities-twelve-tribes 69.245.72.101 (talk) 06:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Members must relinquish personal possessions before joining. No church members may earn money but all money goes to the organization. Boston Globe "http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/10/23/the_doomsday_prophets_on_main_street/" 69.245.72.101 (talk) 06:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I have been away quite a bit lately, you are using variety of sourcing there. Let's sit down and work through it together. Wikipedia has it's guideline for sourcing "Identifying reliable sources" which we use in short hand as WP:IRS. So utilizing that guideline which would pass muster in your opinion? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Well off the top of my head, Identifying reliable sources mentions that reliability depends on context. When we are looking at church doctrine and teaching I think the most reliable source would be the teachings and writing of Spriggs who is the uncontested author of TT doctrine. Other than that, observations in major media and academic sources that observe how those doctrine are carried out practically... meaning I recognise that a teacher will say something crazy (like "God Damn America") and all of a sudden everyone assumes you are the anti-Christ. I'm not trying to do that. That being said, the article is noticeably silent on the things that are most taught and most observed so that's how I'd like to improve the article. How do you feel about using Sprigg's teachings as the basis for the doctrine section? Right out the horses mouth. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:PRIMARY here. If you want to create an account We could use the internal email feature and I can send you sourcing that discusses their doctrine at length. There has been a substantial amount written about it. The Citation list at the bottom of the page has number of them. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:15, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you've brought the conversation to the same point in two places. For official church doctrine, we should use official church doctrine. For interpretation of how that's practices, we should use secondary sources that describes it's practice. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 22:28, 21 July 2011 (UTC) Oh and also :) This user supports the right of anonymous users to edit Wikipedia69.245.72.101 (talk) 22:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Let's continue the discussion of weather or not to use primary sources in the proceeding section if you don't mind. :) I'll continue to post relevant potential sources here in this one for individual analyses. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:51, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's another good one published by the church entitled "Is community a commandment?" necessity of community living is discussed as is the idea that TT IS the body of Christ and the restoration of Israel on Earth. http://www.twelvetribes.com/new/articles/community-a-commandment?page=show 69.245.72.101 (talk) 22:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Race issue

Moved discussion from User talk:ResidentAnthropologist#Twelve Tribes info removed Pemalink

Hiya, you removed some church doctrine on the Twelve Tribes article that I had just put up because is wasn't sourced. I added citations and sources to the discussion page of that article but don't want to edit war with you. Could you please restore the info you reverted and help with proper citation? Thanks! 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:15, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

OK.. I added tons of stuff to discussion and one paragraph of stuff to the controversy section of the article. Please take a look. Some things I think are easily established 1. TT believes themsleves to be the restoration of Israel and the Christian Church. 2. Jesus' plan is for you to join a TT commune. 3. No personal property. 4. Income goes to the organization. 5. something about a strict dress code. .... I've provided articles from thier own site as well as articles from common media sources. Let me know what you think. :) 69.245.72.101 (talk) 06:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I have looked over there is some refining to do but General gist is there. I would like to contextualize some of that into their belief systems. Simple drive by accusations of racism are often poor substitutes for academic deconstructions. I tended to avoid the overly sensational in the article but layout balanced facts. I hope to discuss this more with you but right now I am traveling a bit and am only averaging a few edits a day. have you considered getting a user name to make it easier to communicate? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I have considered it. Also I agree that accusations of racism need to be handled with utmost care. If accusations are notable, for instance a major paper calling the group's position racist, that should be noted accordingly. More to the point though, I'd like to have a neutrally stated and accurate description of their core doctrinal beliefs as outlined above. An article about TT without mentioning the need to live on a TT commune is like an article on Mormonism without Joseph Smith. What I need help with is sifting through the articles I listed for the appropriate ones to use in the article and citation formats. I like the way you organized the article. I'm just picking at some details. :) 69.245.72.101 (talk) 06:46, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

IT's always a matter of WP:DUE of and WP:UNDUE weight. I have tended to leave it out as accusation that is a minority view point under the WP:WEIGHT clause. Compounding the issue is every time I begin is it all traces back to this site and interestingly enough the most damning document there as obviously been altered by a third party. "Elbert the weasel" is something that just would not be in a TT document. That same source you cited the article in the Guardian suggests they are part of the Christian Identity movement which if true would turn the state of scholarship on it's head. I threw out the material long ago because the more you look at it the stranger the accusations get. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for entertaining my suggestions. :) I have no idea what the weasel thing is and agree that anything abused on false accusations should absolutely not be tolerated. That being said, the teaching of Spriggs that races are not to intermix and that intermixing is what causes issues of poverty and inner-city turmoil is a currently held and taught belief as noted. So while we may debate on if this makes them racist, it is definately an interesting and notable stance on race. Also interesting are the language used against Jews and Gays. Suggestions of affiliation aside, what do you think about those two issues. 1. Teachings of Race 2. Blanket derogetory statements of the Jews from the highest office. Is it well cited? I believe yes. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 22:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC) EDIT - Oh, I just read the weasle thing. Yeah, NO. :) My source came right from the organizations website here: http://www.twelvetribes.com/new/node/168?page=1

The issues here that entire site is operated by a third party. Most of the stuff on there is probably legit but discerning which is and which isnt something we can't really do. Also the cherry picking of quotes is also serious issues as well from Wikipedian perspective per WP:PRIMARY. Leaving it to secondary sourcing is always the best avenue and giving things the due weight is the best avenue. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

No I think you're wrong. twelvetribes.com is their official site. That should be our primary source for doctrine. The one you cited, twelvetribesteachings.com is ex members who have their own archive of sermon notes, letter and interviews. That's the one that needs extra discernment when citing. Under the beliefs section of the Orthodox Judaism article who do they quote? In beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints, official church teachings are quoted extensively. I think it would be foolish and also miss the mark if we did not mainly go with primary sources on doctrinal issues. 69.245.72.101 (talk) 22:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

On the topic of WP:Primary, it states: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source" which I believe supports the idea that some doctrine can be easily (common sense) demonstrated from church writings. (like a teaching from the website "We must be modest in dress") Others that involve an explanation or a matter of interpretation would require a secondary source interpreting or observing it. (like a reputable news source saying "None of those women were allowed to wear pants"). 69.245.72.101 (talk) 04:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Rejects the traditional Christian duality?

Just glancing through this article, I found the paragraph starting "The group rejects the traditional Christian duality of heaven and hell; instead believe in what they term the Three Eternal Destinies..." to be rather strange. The first sentence makes it sound like they have an unusual belief, but the remainder makes it clear that their beliefs in this regard are fairly typical, at least among Protestants. Maybe the first sentence should be reworked to something less categorical, like "The group believes in what they term the Three Eternal Destinies, these being damnation, salvation, and holiness." Wnt (talk) 18:00, 26 August 2011 (UTC)