Talk:Bela-Bela

Move from Bela Bela

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was move to Warmbaths. ChrisDHDR 11:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

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Discussion

I moved the page from Bela Bela to here considering that this place has and English name and this is the English Wikipedia (not the Tswana or Afrikaans one). Is this move contested? ChrisDHDR 15:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Vote

Do you support the page being called Warmbaths?

• Support - ChrisDHDR 15:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support - Bezuidenhout (talk) 17:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bots >:(

I have been trying to remove the italian, dutch and German interwikis because they only have the municipality, and everytime I revert it, the bots come back. I tried fixing ALL interwikis to Warmbad/Bela Bela, and that didnt work, so I'm out of options!! Please can someone help! It seems no matter what I do the bots won't listen!! Its actually very annoying.--Bezuidenhout (talk) 18:56, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Excuse my ignorance here but how does the municipality differ from the town? The content of the articles seems more or less in line. Rich Farmbrough, 23:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC).

It would be the same situation as Warwick in Warwickshire, the municipality includes MULTIPLE other settlements, including the one that bears it's name. Not all SA municipalities bear the name of it's capital city, an example would be Tshwane, where there is no settlement called Tshwane.Bezuidenhout (talk) 08:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was move to Bela-Bela; the wording of the lead sentence is a matter for further editorial discussion. Bencherlite^Talk 12:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC) Bencherlite^Talk 12:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

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Warmbaths → Bela-Bela — This place is called Bela-Bela officially. See the discussion at Talk:Polokwane for a similar issue. Warmbaths does not exist in any language any more, the name has officially been changed. It should be consistent with other places in Limpopo Province (See Louis Trichardt, Polokwane and Mokopane). Official names are being used for those places, and should be used here as well. It should not have been changed back to Warmbaths, as an official name change has taken place. Park3r (talk) 20:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

And? Since when is official name the most important factor? I have used examples on Piet/Polok.--Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:35, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:ENGLISH. This place has an English name, and we are on the English Wikipedia. Moving this to article to Bela Bela makes as much sense as moving Moscow to Moskva, or Riyadh to Ar Riyad or الرياض. ChrisDHDR 18:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It is not the same thing at all. Look on Google Maps. Or any map book in English that has been published in the last few years. See Map Studio's ENGLISH map book range calls the place: [1]. If your argument about "native names" holds any water, then please explain why Afrikaner interest groups keep going to court to block name changes in the first place, indeed why would they care, if the names were only being changed in African languages? Furthermore see the Bela-Bela tourism website. It uses the word Bela-Bela in both English and Afrikaans to refer to the place [ http://www.belabelatourism.co.za/ ]. See official South African government website, that clearly shows the name change [2]. Note that the page is in English Park3r (talk) 14:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

See also Encarta, that refers to it as Bela-Bela [3] Park3r (talk) 16:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

And even then we conflict with other wikipedias if the name is Bela-Bela, Bela Bela, Belabela and more.. --Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

And I've been noticing a lot of Bella Bella; check the M&G and here as well. ChrisDHDR 18:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It should be Bela-Bela. See the sources above. Alternate (incorrect) spellings can be dealt with by redirects. Park3r (talk) 14:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Support. I would support moving this page back to Bela-Bela. With Encarta [4], the New York Times [5] and other English-speaking reliable sources now referring to the town as "Bela-Bela (formely Warmbaths)," it seems like it's time to reflect the global usage. Spelling variations or misspellings are not a problem for Wikipedia. AtticusX (talk) 21:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Support. The language arguments are a red herring. Just because the old name is from English and the new name is from Tswana does not still make Warmbaths "the English name". The town has been renamed, it only has one name. While people may joke, criticize or embrace the new names depending on their POV, you won't find too many people denying that the name changes have taken place and are pervasive. It's disruptive and misleading to have articles under old names only, all current media, maps etc use the new name. --HiltonLange (talk) 00:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, Afrikaner interest groups keep going to court to reverse name changes (see the case of Louis Trichardt and the renaming of Nelspruit which took place in the last week). If the names have not changed in Afrikaans and English, why do they to the effort of legally fighting the name changes at all? A red herring argument indeed.Park3r (talk) 12:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I haven't heard anything about a name change for Nelspruit, but I think the reason why they pressure these cities is because the name changes on roadsigns, and other signs. One interresting thing about this is that Londonderry signs leading to Derry have been vandalised by removing the London, road sign vandalism has also occured in the Limpopo province.Bezuidenhout (talk) 19:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It is totally true what you're saying, but what about Bangalore (en name change done in 2005: Belgaluru) or Derry (official En name: Londonderry)

Wikipedia's Bangalore article states that the official name change to Bengaluru "has been currently stalled due to delays in getting clearances from the Union Home Ministry." The news article cited there states, "The city appears to be fast making way for Bengaluru with several major corporate houses and television channels adopting the new name. The official nod for the change in name has, however, not been given yet." Perhaps this is why the news media are still largely referring to the place as Bangalore. (New York Times: 3740 articles mentioning Bangalore vs. 0 articles mentioning Bengaluru; Google News: 13,000+ articles mentioning Bangalore vs. about 300 articles mentioning Bengaluru.)

But Derry/Londonderry strikes me as more similar to the Bela-Bela/Warmbaths case. Wikipedia's article seems to handle the name controversy quite well, detailing the names' history and explaining who tends to favor each name, while using for the name of the article the name most commonly used by the global media at this time. (NYT: Derry vs. Londonderry; Google News: Derry vs. Londonderry.)

To determine an article's name we are asked to "follow the usage of reliable sources, such as those used as references for the article". In this case, as previously established, current reliable sources are generally calling it Bela-Bela, and thus so should we. AtticusX (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

A fair argument, and I am not AGAINST a move back to Bela-Bela any more, however, I would like the beggining of the article to start something like:

Bela-Bela or Warmbaths (renamed from Warmbaths to Bela-Bela in *date*, Afrikaans: Warmbad)... or something along those lines.Bezuidenhout (talk) 09:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

What I would most be for would be the article to have the reversed beggining name: for example if the article is left at Warmbaths, the beggining reads Bela-Bela or Warmbaths, and if moved to Bela-B, the beggining reads Warmbaths or Bela-BelaBezuidenhout (talk) 09:08, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Interesting discussion. The parallels with Derry or Bangalore are fascinating, but I believe that they're not relevant in this situation because their circumstances are different. Derry is in a location where the "London" as part of its name has become politicized, and the majority of locals know it as only Derry. Bangalore has even fewer people accepting the new name. Incidentally, the majority of locals still call Mumbai Bombay, but the article has been renamed. In the case of South African renamings, there are around 70% of the population who were either already calling it the new name, or are fairly quick to embrace the change. Some original research and anecdote, obviously I can't reference: My perspective is as a white South African, and despite the fact that my demographic is supposedly most resistant to the changes, most of my family and friends start using the new name within a year, especially since all the road signs and maps are updated. So, and again I stress, this is anecdotal: I would guess that only about 10-15% of the population insist on using the old name, and representing their views here would constitute undue weight. The fact that there are disproportionately many internet users from that population group makes Google-counting etc an unreliable way of determining which name is more popular. --HiltonLange (talk) 22:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I cannot deny, a very good argument, but of course there must be proof, which is ever so hard to find for English South Africans. I would have thought that people living around the city would very quickly adapt to the new name becuase of their exposure. However there is an extreme lack of English speaking people in the Limpopo province, therefore this is ruled out. My parents (who are also born in SA) live there for over 80%+ of their lifetime, although they weren't around during the name changes, they always refer to the cities by their former name (before 2000) becuase that's were they were brought up. This is challenged by their friends and family who e-mail from SA and sometimes (especially their friends who live around Pietersburg) refer to the city by it's new name. My Mother has only 1 friend who she contacts who lives in Piet/Polok, and she is currently using Pietersburg/Polokwane half-half, while all my other mother's friends still call it Pietersburg. Obviously my mother isn't a good reference to wikipedia, but my point is just an example, for those who live in the city accept the name change better, of which I expect (and ignorantly assume) that English south africans should be the last to call Warmbaths Bela-Bela (sorry for dragging on this very much vacant discussion).Bezuidenhout (talk) 22:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

NPOV

A look at the edit history will show that requests for citation for claims that the place has "three names" are being deleted and verified facts about the name having changed are being reverted.

There is no evidence that the name is Warmbaths in English anymore. See ENGLISH sources: Encarta [6] See what Map Studio (the most popular publisher of street maps in South Africa) calls the place in its English map books: [7] (Bela-Bela). The New York Times [8]. Google News: http://news.google.co.za/news/search?q=bela-bela .

It is disingenuous to claim that the name in English is Warmbaths without proof. Frankly, it looks like Wikipedia is being used to carry out a rearguard action against the Limpopo town renamings which took place years ago, and are widely accepted in the written media.

If the article stated that the names are widely used colloquially, and provided proof, I would not have a problem with that. Park3r (talk) 19:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

To add: Because of the still-high cost of internet connectivity, and the somewhat low levels of computer literacy in South Africa, it seems easy for those with marginal views to give them undue prominence in this article without much opposition WP:Undue. See the original article move back to Warmbaths (accomplished by 2 votes), which was recently reversed for an example of this happening. Park3r (talk) 21:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually if one writes: Name (language:other name) it can mean that both names are suitable for that languages. An example is [Opole]] (and virtually every other city in Poland) where the beggining of the German article goes Opole (Deutsch: Oppeln). This signifys that both names are acceptable and should be the case here.Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Please provide current sources that show the name Warmbaths is being used in English. Park3r (talk) 20:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

It may appear as if I am hostile to the name Warmbaths / Warmbad, but I am not. Indeed, I, and most people who I know do colloquially refer to the place as Warmbaths, NOT as Bela-Bela. But we also refer to Johannesburg as Joburg. That does not mean that the name of Johannesburg is anything but Johannesburg, even though the vast majority of people colloquially refer to it by one of its nicknames. Furthermore, personal experience is NOT good enough for Wikipedia, unless it can be backed up with reliable sources. Therefore as a compromise, I would not be averse to an opening similar the one that the article on Polokwane currenly has:

Bela-Bela ,meaning "boiling-boiling" is a town in the Limpopo Province of South Africa. Getting its name from the hot springs around which the town was built, it is widely known by its former name Warmbaths (afr: Warmbad). Park3r (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I guess in some sort of way I prefer that to 'Bela-Bela formerley Warmbaths' because the later sounds like Warmbaths isn't used anymore. I agree with you on the Joburg story and that our personal preference is powerless, but I just want to point out that both the new name and former name (not so much the Afrikaans one) are used in English. Bezuidenhout (talk) 07:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

What's all this petty arguing? We spent ages arguing on a solution to the problem, and now it flares up again - just give it a break. The solution's so simple: give all commonly accepted names for the place in the intro (with the official one getting preference, then the English one, then finally the Afrikaans one), and then explain the whole situation in its very own section (ie. "Name"). Take an example from Culcutta: I, like many other people, still call it by its original name, but the article takes to official name and then explains the situation in its own section.

And now for my view on your comments Park3r: what is this nonsense that the name is no longer Warmbaths in English anymore? The very fact that two editors here refer to the place by that name shows that you can't just change topology in a click. The town of Trivandrum was renamed Thiruvananthapuram almost 20 years ago, yet the old name is still overly more popular^[9]. ChrisDHDR 18:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

The opinion of two editors on Wikipedia does not represent proof of anything. Park3r (talk) 15:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

What editors prefer to call it would amount to original research. Both editors in question live outside of South Africa, so certainly wouldn't be in a great position to know how widespread the effects of a 7 year old name change have been. My personal experience is that it is almost exclusively called Bela-Bela by the local population, and becoming widely adopted by white English speaking people. However, all of this is not verifiable. What IS verifiable is that Encarta, Map Studio, accomodation sites, real estate sites etc, all have switched to using the official name. Unless I'm missing compelling, mainstream references which represent the majority view, I can't see a reason to keep giving the old name equal status. --HiltonLange (talk) 21:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

[Resetting indent] HiltonLange and Park3r are right. Reliable sources unquestionably outweigh arguments from original research or opinion on Wikipedia. For now I will only add that the following reference — {{cite web |url=http://www.geckogo.com/Travel-Tip/South-Africa/Limpopo-Province/Warmbaths/see-Warmbad-that-is-the-Afrikaans-name-for-the-same-place/ |title=Tip on: Warmbaths |last=[http://www.geckogo.com/profile/1197901 Kim B.] |publisher=[[Gecko Go!]] |accessdate=21 November 2009}} — is not remotely a reliable source and it ought to be replaced with a better source, if one is available. AtticusX (talk) 22:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I have replaced this source with [10] which seems a bit more credible. It is interesting that the place was called Hartingsburg till the British renamed it during the Anglo-Boer War. Perhaps whose who insist on listing all its names would want to add that name in the introduction... Park3r (talk) 22:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I see that the intro has been changed again, with no attempt at consensus on the talk page. I'm starting the intro fresh, based on the city name changes in India. Here is my rationale, please feel free to discuss if you want to make changes.

- Bela-Bela is the current Tswana, English and Afrikaans name.

- Warmbaths is not the native name. Nor is Warmbad. Potentially, around 10% of the residents may call it Warmbad or Warmbaths, but the vast majority call it Bela-Bela, and have from before the name was officially changed.

- The Afrikaans name is totally irrelevant on English wikipedia, beyond an interwiki link. When I click on London, I don't get the French name (Londres) in the lead. It's in the interwiki.

If any of my facts are wrong, let's research to verify. If my interpretation as to how the intro for towns and cities should be written is wrong, please let's discuss. We can use this as a template for many of the renamed towns in South Africa.

--HiltonLange (talk) 23:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the editors who are fighting for the name Warmbaths / Warmbad, should actually be fighting for the native name Hartingsburg, since the name Warmbaths/Warmbad seems to have been imposed by the British. [11]. Quite ironic. Park3r (talk) 23:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I havn't seen this discussion in a while, and this is difficult and embarrasing for me to say, as at the time I was ignorant, selfish and angry due to the name changes. However since then (I am almost 16 now) I have matured up a bit and would like to repent most of the above comments I have made. I am for Bela-Bela now (however as Park3r knows, not for Mbombela just yet) but I would just like to input saying that the beggining should have Bela-Bela (formerley Warmbaths, afr: Warmbad) because Afrikaans is relevant in this article, the London example you gave had no relevance because French don't have much to do with London, while Afrikaans does have to do with Bela-Bela (since it is likely that the majority of the town has an Afrikaans population now. Once again due to personal opinion and no reliable reference. Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Sotho or Tswana?

Numerous sources state that the name is actually in Sotho not Tswana[12][13][14][15]. How many of the sources that claim it is in Tswana got that information from Wikipedia, and what language is "Bela-Bela" actually in? Even if Tswana people discovered the springs, it would not contradict the name being in Sotho (Nothern or Southern?). Anyone have more information on this? Park3r (talk) 22:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course, other sources say it is in Tswana [16].Park3r (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

As of 2018, do we know if this is Sotho or Tswana? Park3r (talk) 13:54, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Salus et vita

What exactly does Salus et vita (the motto) mean in English? I don't always trust online translators, anyone have an Idea? Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:23, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Salus et vita = Health and life Erik de Wolf (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

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Revisiting Warmbaths vs Bela-Bela

When I proposed this move some years back I was not aware of WP:OFFICIAL (or it didn’t exist). I would probably support a move back to Warmbaths if someone else felt strongly about this issue and proposed a move. I suspect that the name Bela-Bela is not in common use in English, and the main resort still uses the name Warmbaths, with good reason.Park3r (talk) 09:58, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Most recent news articles using "Warmbaths" either refer to the resort, refer to a road name, use it in parentheses, or explicitly mention it as a historical name. I see significantly greater usage of "Bela-Bela", for instance, when looking at:

• Google News results for "Bela-Bela"
• Google News results for "Warmbaths"

The evidence points towards the current name being the appropriate one per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES in particular. — MarkH₂₁^talk 21:48, 11 March 2021 (UTC)