Talk:Yery

Initial Ы Pronounced as И?

"The yery is theoretically never capitalized because no words start with it, but Cyrillic type faces do normally provide an uppercase form for setting type in all caps." This should be changed, because there are some words that do, in fact, have a initial Ы. [1]

Maybe this should be changed to "native" words or something. BirdValiant 01:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm a native speaker of Russian and Ukrainian now living in the US. In every instance that I've seen of this letter in the various articles here it's always been referred to as Yery, but this seems very strange and unintuitive to me and would likely look the same to other native speakers. Perhaps there should be something to back up and/or explain why it's called this in English? (in Russian it's just called [ɨ]Shadow demon 10:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably because English speakers find it difficult to pronounce. Demonic Duck 12:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Demonic Duck (talk • contribs)

"though these are generally pronounced as if they were spelled with <и>". This statement is incorrect. I live in Sakha Republic and never heard any Russian, either living here or a visitor, pronounce initial Ы as <и>. Deleting. Saaska (talk) 14:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I would hate to engage in an edit war, but here you have 2.5 native speakers saying this statement is ridiculous and someone keeps restoring it "to give editors time to source it". If you see false information, correct it on the spot. When and if someone finds an erroneous source for a false statement, they may restore it, citing the source. Which will not make it true. Saaska (talk) 02:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to revert you, but per WP:V: "Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed, but editors might object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references, and it has always been good practice, and expected behavior of Wikipedia editors (in line with our editing policy), to make reasonable efforts to find sources oneself that support such material, and cite them."

I'm not a native speaker, but I have done quite a bit of research on Russian phonology. In my studies so far, I've only seen evidence that leads to the conclusion that ы is pronounced as и in isolation. For example, Jaye Padgett has conducted acoustic studies that show that ы is a diphthong and interprets it to be the result of the velarization of the preceding consonant.

While it's true that native speakers can provide helpful insights into a language's grammar (lexicon, syntax, etc), there are things that being a native speaker doesn't necessarily help with. One of these is the frequency of variation. What this means is that the 2.5 native speakers are providing anecdotal evidence that only demonstrates that the feature under question isn't universal. I do recognize that anecdote is the singular of data, but it would be nice if there were something in the article that prompted editors to question this issue and seek sources that may help clarify.

So if we don't have that statement with a citation request, is there anything else we could have in the article that prompts editors in such a way or should we just rely on the talk page discussion being enough to bring attention to the issue? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I do understand that native speakers may have a distorted view of such matters. We could say something like "some researchers, however, ..." with a reference to Padgett. Then again, a passage like the following one: "the vowel /i/ after non-palatalized consonants is usually transcribed as [ˆ] (or “y” in Slavicist literature), but here we transcribe [i] with velarization on the preceding consonant, following Padgett [2001] " (from Padgett's paper 1 make it sound like his view is rather unorthodox.

A simple experiment I imagine: make untrained Russians listen to a Russian pronouncing words with initial Ы and initial И, and write what they hear. The listeners must not have heard the words before - that's easy: take some obscure places or Korean military leaders. I'd bet they will get the first letter right. Saaska (talk) 12:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I support Saaska here. A word starting with an initial Ы can be pronounced as such and a native Russian can easily tell that it's an Ы, not an И, although such a word would sound like a non-Russian. An example: Ыллымах (Yllymakh), a place in Yakutia (Sakha). This won't sound like Иллымах. There are many cases when И is pronounced as Ы, but not the other way around. If someone likes to use the letter "ы" on its own (Ы-ы-ы!), this action can be called "ыкать" (И нечего тут ыкать! :) ). Anatoli (talk) 12:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ü?

I'm not a native speaker, but would it be helpful to say that pronunciation is similar to German Ü? Or would this be misleading? Demonic Duck (talk) 11:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Nope. You probably confused Ы (which is unrounded) with Ю (which is rounded, like U and Ü). Ы and Ü are both close vowels, but it is their only common property. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Ы/И minimal pairs

I don't understand how it can be disputed whether Ы and И distinction is phonemic, given that there are indisputable minimal pairs. A textbook example is быть (to be) vs. бить (to beat, to hit, to pound), and there is not a slightest chance that a native Russian speaker would mispronounce one for the other, or mishear one for the other if pronounced by another native Russian speaker. Actually, as a second language Russian speaker and native Polish speaker, I can boldly attest that I would never mishear one for the other either. These vowels are very different, much more so than their Polish counterparts y and i that happen to occur in the parallel minimal pair być vs. bić. Rulatir (talk) 18:54, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The initial consonants of these words are different: /b/ and /bʲ/ respectively. These consonants are undisputably separate phonemes, since there are minimal pairs such as бака/бяка. Burzuchius (talk) 16:16, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

И this is the palatalized Ы

In Slavic languages (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Bulgarian, Serbian) Cyrillic letters are used. The Cyrillic alphabet has special letters for displaying "iotized-palatalized" vowel sounds of speech. There are also the letters iota Й and the letter palatalizer Ь. Moreover, the iota and the palatalizer are the same sonorous slit (hissing) sound-a sign of speech-thinking of the third articulation zone.

Each non-palatalized vowel or consonant sound of speech can be pronounced palatalized ("softly").

Palatalization of any non-palatalized vowel sound of speech is the simultaneous articulation of the voiced slit ("hissing") consonant "palatalizer-iota" Й=Ь of the third articulation zone followed by the vowel sound of speech: Ю is ЙУ and is ЬУ. Ё is ЙО and is ЬО. Я is ЙА and is ЬА. Е is ЙЭ and is ЬЭ. И is ЙЫ and is ЬЫ. The vowel sounds of speech and their palatalized forms are arranged in a sequence of their articulation zones - from the first (outermost) to the fifth (innermost): У - О - А - Э - Ы // Ю - Ё - Я - Е - И.

Palatalization of any non-palatalized explosive or slit consonant sound of speech is the simultaneous articulation of the preceding consonant followed by a sonorous slit ("hissing") consonant sound-signs of speech by the "palatalizer-iota" of the third articulation zone. For example: ПЬ is and ПЙ. БЬ is and БЙ. ФЬ is and ФЙ. ВЬ is and ВЙ. ЦЬ is and ЦЙ. СЬ is and СЙ. ЗЬ is and ЗЙ. ТЬ is and ТЙ. ДЬ is and ДЙ. ЧЬ is and ЧЙ. JЬ is and JЙ. Щ is ШЬ and is ШЙ. In the Russian language, the palatalized explosive deaf sound of speech of the second zone of articulation ЦЬ is considered to be the palatalized explosive deaf sound of speech of the third zone of articulation ТЬ. And the real palatalized sound of speech ТЬ is considered a foreign accent of its pronunciation.

Therefore, the palatalized vowel sound of speech "Ы" does not deserve to be displayed by a separate letter and palatalized "ЬЫ" = "ЙЫ". Also, the other four palatalized vowel sounds of speech do not deserve to be displayed in separate letters "Ю" (= "ЬУ" = "ЙУ"), "Ё" (= "ЬО" = "ЙО"), "Я" (= "ЬА" = "ЙА), "Е" (= "ЬЭ" = "ЙЭ").

Scientific source:

1. Макеев А.К. Общая классификация согласных и гласных звуков-знаков речи-мышления / А.К. Макеев // Культурология, искусствоведение и филология: современные взгляды и научные исследования: сб. ст. по материалам XXXIV Международной научно-практической конференции «Культурология, искусствоведение и филология: современные взгляды и научные исследования». – № 3(30). – М., Изд. «Интернаука», 2020. - 108 с. С. 65-75. Alex makeyev (talk) 14:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

2. Макеев А.К. Общая классификация согласных и гласных звуков речи // Научный взгляд в будущее. – Выпуск 4. Том 10 – Одесса: КУПРИЕНКО СВ, 2016 - 90 с. С. 64-81. ЦИТ: sl316-134 DOI:10.21893/2415-7538-2016-04-10-134 УДК 612.789+81.345.5 ISSN 2415-766X(Print) ISSN 2415-7538 (Online) ББК 94 Н 347 Alex makeyev (talk) 08:46, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

3. Макеев А.К. Вербальное информационное поле: элементарные сущности, роль и место в Мироздании. - SPECOM 2011 14th International Conference «SPEECH and COMPUTER» 27-30 September, 2011 // Kazan, Russia, Privolzhky Federal University 2011. 468 с., С. 228-234. ISBN 978-5-88983-395-6

4. Макеев А.К. Научные законы элементарных артикуляций // Наука и современность – 2010: сборник материалов II Международной научно-практической конференции. В 3-х частях. Часть 1. / Под общей редакцией С. С. Чернова. // Новосибирск: Издательство «СИБПРИНТ», 2010. 266 с., С. 234-247. ISBN 978-5-94301-157-7. УДК 001(06). ББК 72я46

5. Макеев А. К. «Вселенская азбука» или Закон периодичности артикуляционных и акустических свойств элементарных звуков речи и его графическое отображение в Естественной системе элементарных звукознаков речемышления (дата регистрации (открытия) 1998.05.26). // «Идеи. Гипотезы. Решения». Информационный бюллетень. - Москва, ВНТИЦ №1 1999. с. 11.

6. Макеев (Ерет) А.К. Естественная система фонем интеллекта (ЕСФИ) // Актуальные проблемы фундаментальных наук: тезисы докладов. Т. 12. Секции Эргономика и искусственный интеллект, иностранные языки, Семинар “Проблемы современной организации науки и производства. Инжиниринг. Маркетинг”. /Под ред. Федорова И.Б. М.: Издательство МГТУ, 1991. с. 106.

7. Макеев А. К. Патент РФ RU 63948 U1 от 10 июня 2007 г. на полезную модель Клавиатура с вращаемыми блоками клавиш. Описание полезной модели к патенту. – Российская Федерация, Федеральная служба по интеллектуальной собственности, патентам и товарным знакам // Бюллетень № 16, 10.06.2007. Alex makeyev (talk) 09:06, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Wrong phonetics

I'm pretty certain that I can attest, as someone of Russian heritage, that this letter does not sound like a Close central unrounded vowel (ɨ) but definitely like a Close back unrounded vowel (ɯ). Feel free to discuss all your Westernized theories of doom and gloom. --Vitilsky (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Usage Section

The first line is "The soft sign (Ь) has the same trill." Same trill as what? the sentence makes no sense to me IanH84 (talk) 04:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)