Talk:Otomo Yoshihide

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: rename and apologise.
There is a clear consensus for the change. It is regrettable that hurt and distress was caused to a living person by the use of the previous article title, which has been shown to have contravened our article naming policy at WP:COMMONNAME. I am sure that the style guide was applied in good faith, but a style guide does not trump WP:COMMONNAME, nor does it override our obligations to avoid inaccuracies which may cause harm to living people. (Yes, WP:BLP does apply to article titles: see where BLP does and does not apply).
Thanks to User:Michitaro for preparing this article move request so thoroughly, and for translating and bringing to this discussion the complaint from Otomo Yoshihide. Would Michitaro be kind enough to translate this closing statement for Otomo Yoshihide and to stress that this was a mistake which should never have happened? Wikipedia does not try to change a person's name without their their permission, and we apologise the offence caused by this error. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

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Yoshihide Ōtomo → Otomo Yoshihide – This may be a controversial request. The MOS for WikiProject Japan (WP:MOS-JA) is to use family name + given name for Japanese born after 1868, but WP:COMMONNAME demands use of the name most commonly used in English language sources. I received a request from a user who states that he is Otomo Yoshihide and claims that he always goes by "Otomo Yoshihide" not "Yoshihide Otomo" or "Yoshihide Ōtomo" abroad: User_talk:Michitaro#from_Otomo_Yoshihide. While there is no way of confirming this user's identity, Otomo's English home page does render his name Otomo Yoshihide [1], as does his MySpace page [2]. Beyond his personal preference, I believe there is a strong argument for stating that "Otomo Yoshihide" is his common name in English. On Google, "Otomo Yoshihide" returns 221,000 results, while "Yoshihide Otomo" returns only 36,100. The majority of hits in Google Books are for "Otomo Yoshihide" (1760): [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], etc. "Yoshihide Otomo" on Google books only gets 247 results, and most are for mistaken index entries "Yoshihide, Otomo" that result from him insisting on Japanese name order: [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], etc. His music albums released abroad use "Otomo Yoshihide": [http://www.amazon.com/Donaueschinger-Musiktage-Otomo-Yoshihide-Quartet/dp/B0052035DW], [http://www.amazon.com/Music-s-Otomo-Yoshihide/dp/B005GQMXV2], [http://www.amazon.com/Night-Before-Death-Sampling-Virus/dp/B000A6SPHO], [http://www.amazon.com/Cathode-O-Yoshihide/dp/B00001W09S], [http://www.amazon.com/Anode-Otomo-Yoshihide/dp/B00005RFK2], [http://www.amazon.com/21-Situations-Martin-Tetreault/dp/B00000J5PN], etc. Concert/event announcements also give his name that way: [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], etc. The majority of significant sources on the net also use Otomo Yoshihide: [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], etc. Note that one often sees his name in English articles listed family name + given name, while other Japanese performers in the same article are rendered given name + family name, indicating both his personal insistence on that name order and how much those in the English world follow his preference. I believe this is one case where WP:COMMONNAME trumps WP:MOS-JA. Relisted. Michitaro (talk) 01:08, 2 February 2014 (UTC)Michitaro (talk) 14:23, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

After I explained in Japanese the procedures for requesting a page move, the user Otomojamjam (talk · contribs), who says he is Otomo Yoshihide, made the following response on his talk page, which I have translated from Japanese:

This month, the version "Yoshihide Ōtomo" appeared in a Guardian newspaper article in the UK even though I've been active in the English-speaking world all up until now as "Otomo Yoshihide." I was curious why this kind of mistake happened and discovered this Wikipedia article. I was shocked. This name is not on my passport and I have never used it. It is a way of rendering my name that I in no way desire. In the past, I have written an article in a magazine published by Improvised Music Japan about why I have for 25 years been active under the name Otomo Yoshihide and not Yoshihide Otomo. I have long argued that my real name, my legal name--even the name on my passport--is either Otomo Yoshihide or 大友良英, and that I have no other name. If that view does not get across, I then argue that my stage name is "Otomo Yoshihide." In fact, since I have used that name since the beginning, the use of any other rendering of my name cannot help but be harmful. Other people are not allowed to change one's stage name without permission, and I don't think it's OK for people to change my real name. Furthermore, I have never used "Ōtomo": it's not even on my passport and is clearly a mistake. It's a rendering that I am personally strongly opposed to. I am similarly against "Ohtomo" which I see every once in a while. To be honest, I cannot think it right that a third person has the right to change another person's name based on their beliefs. I have been active under this name from the beginning, and even though there has been no problem with that, now there are people who want to change my name without my permission. I am at a loss. Moreover, if a name that I have used for more than 25 years can be changed in this way, I can imagine some harm coming when I release music under that name. No matter what beliefs Wikipedia has, I cannot accept that it thinks it can change someone's name without permission. Please return my name to the way it was. That is my earnest request. It is an unbearable pain to be called a version of my name that I don't desire. I unfortunately don't know the rules on Wikipedia, or how to change or correct my name there. I ask you to please understand my request. Otomo Yoshihide

Note that "Otomojamjam" is the handle name on both Otomo's Twitter account [39] and on his blog [40]. Michitaro (talk) 20:14, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:MOS-JA#Determining common usage, as evidenced above. We don't have conflicting guidelines here. --Kusunose 05:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
• What a bunch of nonsense. We haven't changed his name as if we were some independent body that determines what his name should be written as. It's just our internal style guide and it's not our fault some stupid newspaper in the UK decided to just copy how it's written here. But, if reliable sources in English exclusively use "Otomo Yoshihide" then we should as well.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:56, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

  Also, Michitaro, it's "given name + family name" for post Meiji period individuals unless it is a stage name, but arguing that his stage name is "Otomo Yoshihide" is a stretch. If anything, this page should be at "Yoshihide Otomo".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I am fully aware of the pre and post-1868 rule. But it does remind us that J-MOS already allows for "family name + given name" in pre-1868 names. I should also underline that I translated Otomojamjam's words because his written English is not great. His words are his own, not mine. Finally, I should note that WP:COMMONNAME does not require proof that a name be used "exclusively" but rather that it "is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". I believe I have shown that. It is true that Wikipedia:MOS-JA#Names_of_modern_figures dictates "given name + family name" for all post-1868 figures, making exceptions only of stage names. But as Kusunose argues above, some may argue that WP:MOS-JA#Determining common usage already allows for other exceptions. My argument is that WP:COMMONNAME trumps Wikipedia:MOS-JA#Names_of_modern_figures. Michitaro (talk) 02:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support Given the shear amount of evidence and the subject's own input, I agree that the current article should be moved to Otomo Yoshihide. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 02:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
• Please add hatnote template - I would think the addition of a hatnote template explaining which is surname and which is given name is much more important than which way round surname is put.
• Support - per jazz album covers etc. Also back to original title per WP:BRD prior to 17:33, 11 February 2012 move. Personally I would leave in the macron Ōtomo Yoshihide to help readers with pronunciation of a long/double oo, but there is no consensus on this currently. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:53, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support as per WP:COMMONNAME; this is how he's generally credited for his work. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.