Template:Did you know nominations/Mufti Nemat

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Flibirigit (talk) 02:31, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

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Mufti Nemat[edit]

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  • ... that Afghan militant Mufti Nemat has claimed that he wants others to accept his ideology "with their hearts, not by force" despite having previously waged a violent insurgency and possibly committed numerous war crimes? Source: "At their peak, the ISIS fighters in northern Afghanistan numbered as many as 500 followers of Qari Hekmatullah, until he was killed in an American airstrike in April. Mr. Rahman and Mr. Nemat, who are brothers-in-law, then emerged as the leaders of the group. [...] 'We want other people to accept our ideas with their hearts, not by force,' Mr. Nemat said. 'There is no need to force people to accept us.' [...] Many of the Islamic State's crimes are well documented in their own Facebook and WhatsApp posts, with videos of them burning opponents alive, stoning people to death, training children as fighters, and shooting bound prisoners." (Source: Are ISIS Fighters Prisoners or Honored Guests of the Afghan Government?)

Created by Applodion (talk). Self-nominated at 08:25, 13 September 2018 (UTC).

  • Oh, sorry! I did not notice that I had already used that QPQ. I will add a new one tomorrow. Applodion (talk) 20:47, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I have added a new QPQ. Applodion (talk) 20:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. Ready for full review. Yoninah (talk) 20:14, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure this hook is acceptable under the content rules, since it focuses primarily on negative aspects of a living person. To be clear, I'm not defending Nemat or his actions, or suggesting that the cited source is not accurate, only noting that the hook as written doesn't appear to confirm to the DYK rules. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:52, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
  • We could leave out the part about the war crimes, as he denies them. The rest of the hook, namely that he waged an insurgency despite claming be be peaceful, is undisputable, however, and is not necessarily negative. Applodion (talk) 17:21, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Full review still needed. I've struck the original hook per PMC and am listing an ALT1 that simply removes the final clause of the original, so the sourcing should be the same.BlueMoonset (talk) 16:34, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT1: ... that Afghan militant Mufti Nemat has claimed that he wants others to accept his ideology "with their hearts, not by force" despite having previously waged a violent insurgency? (same source as above)
*This would land the guy a visit from the police in the UK. Szzuk (talk) 21:28, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
I have the feeling that this hook is simply not going to work. Perhaps it would be best if I would just withdraw this nomination. Applodion (talk) 22:22, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't have any great opinion about the article overall, there is probably another hook you can use. Szzuk (talk) 22:27, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
Ok. How about this one:
ALT2: ... that Mufti Nemat was the head of a religious school for male and female students before joining the Afghan branch of ISIL? Source: "Mufti Nemat stayed in Sheberghan for almost two years hoping to join the ALP or pro-government militia forces in the province. As a follower of Salafism, he intended to expand the Salafi ideology in the province at the same time. In November 2016, he established a Salafi madrasa called E’ya-ye Sunnat (Rehabilitation of the Sunnah) in the city and where male and female students attended classes." (Non-Pashtun Taleban of the North (4): A case study from Jawzjan)
Applodion (talk) 10:10, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
ALT3 "...that Mufti Nemat has been accused of raping women as a commander of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – Khorasan Province?" "His surrender came days after a number of women in Darzab district of the province accused him and his fighters of abducting and raping them." -VOA

— Preceding unsigned comment added by RightCowLeftCoast (talk • contribs) 20:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Will review please hold.-RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 20:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
ALT4 "... that Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – Khorasan Province commander Mufti Nemat surrendered to the Afghan government, after a Taliban offensive against ISIL-K in 2018?""Assadullah said that Mawlawi Habib Rahman, Mufti Nematullah, Mullah Suhbatullah and Hussain Qahraman, head of the military unit of the group, along with 200 fighters, were rescued in this way. After surrendering to the government and safely arriving in Sheberghan city, Habib Rahman told media outlets that he was tired of war and had therefore joined the Afghan government’s peace process." -AAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by RightCowLeftCoast (talk • contribs) 22:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - ALT0 eliminated, ALT1 is uncited, ALT2 ALT3 & ALT4 are cited
  • Interesting: No - ALT3 is the most interesting IMHO
  • Other problems: No - ALT2 & ALT4 do not focus on negative aspects of the subject of the article
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article was nominated for QPQ on 6 September, and was created on 6 September. At the time of its creation and nomination, the article was over 5k characters of prose (without spaces). Each paragraph is sourced in line; while several sentences don't have inline citation, that is not required for a DYKN. While some usage of words on the WP:WTW list are present, it appears to be more or less neutral, if not written in a way that is slightly positive of the subject of the artlce. Article only has a 10.7% rating for Earwig's. Some problems with the hooks, see above. Article needs work for it to pass DYKN. RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 22:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Please note that ALT3 and ALT4 were proposed by the reviewer, and will therefore need someone else to sign off on them if they are to be used. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:05, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  • It should be noted that due to the fact that Nemat is still alive, we cannot use hooks that are overly negative: As result, ALT3 will not be acceptable. In regard to the article title, he is almost universally known as "Mufti Nemat" - per Wikipedia:Article titles that is thus the best choice for the article title. Furthermore, the article subject is probably such a vile individual that any attempt to write neutrally about him does make his article appear more positive than he probably deserves. Applodion (talk) 09:53, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I struck out ALT3 per above. Aside from the BLP rule, I don't think it's a good idea to mention rape in the DYK box. Its supposed to be a fun gateway to learning, not a place to shock people. --Krelnik (talk) 03:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
See WP:NCBIO & the related WP:NCCL, regarding the alleged Mufti predominance for the alleged common name reasoning. I see that a search for Nemat is most likely to get Orzala Ashraf Nemat, so a disambig between the two individual's articles is needed; that said this NYT article refers to the subject as Mr. Nemat, and this National Post article refers to the subject of the article as just plain Nemat, and this AFghanistan Times article refers to the subject as Nematullah.
Article other issues have not been addressed. No rush per WP:NOTIMELIMIT.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 01:40, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
@RightCowLeftCoast: The source for ALT1 is the same as ALT0; I am unsure about rewriting the lead. Birth dates are unknown, his nationality as well as position/rank are stated, and I noted that he has been accused of war crimes. In regard to the title, would you prefer "Mufti Nemat" instead of "Mufti Nemat"? Applodion (talk) 10:45, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Mufti, a title, shouldn't be included in the article title, I understand the reasoning for including it in the article title, but disagree with the conclusion reached. It should not just be Nemat as the subject of the article is not the primary search result for that particular pronoun. Perhaps Nematullah would be a better article name. As for the birth date, there isn't even an estimated year?--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 17:51, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Titles can be part of article titles if the person is best known by that name (see for example various medieval people, such as the Earls of Warwick); Nemat is simply too unspecific. Nematullah is simply his name, Nemat, with the addition of another title ("Mullah"). In regard to the birth year, the answer is no. I think it is very likely that estimates exist about his age, but I could not find a single source which mentioned his age or birth year or anything similar. Applodion (talk) 22:00, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps Nemat (Taliban Commader) would be an alternate then?--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 01:13, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
@RightCowLeftCoast: I had thought about that as well, but Nemat was a notable commander both among the Taliban as well as ISIL; not to mention that several other commanders exist(ed) in both groups who were named "Nemat". Furthermore, reducing him to his military activity seems not fitting either, as he was a notable enough cleric that the government banned him from teaching. Applodion (talk) 11:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
As this is the case, I think singling out the subject's role as a cleric, thus the title of Mufti, would de-emphasis the subject's military role. There has to be a way to disambiguate the subject from other Nemats without utilizing a title in the article name.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 01:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
@RightCowLeftCoast: Though "Mufti" is a title given for his religious role, it also covers his judical role among the militants and is a title of general respect, thus not excluding any military activities. Anyway, I don't undersatand why keeping the title as it is presents such a great problem - Numerous individuals on Wikipedia have article names that include their titles for a lack of better alternatives. When Memat's full name is one day revealed, we can still change it. Applodion (talk) 09:17, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
The Earl of Warwick article listed above, is not of a single individual, but of a series of individuals that hold the position, therefore it is similar to Surgeon General of the United States Army in that regard.
I again, and remain/continue, hold the view that a title should not be included in the article name of the individual known as Nemat, as the individual is not the most popular search result for individuals named Nemat, there should be a Nemat disambiguate article, as well as an article about this subject, but under a name which does not include the individuals title. I will agree to disagree on our differing opinions, but I think this needs a third opinion from an uninvolved editor.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 01:24, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@RightCowLeftCoast: Just to be clear, I meant the individual earls (such as Henry de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Warwick) as example, not the title itself. And to add another example, take Prince Gong - The name by which he is best known (and the article title) is "Prince Gong", but that was a title (see Prince Gong (peerage)); his real name was "Yixin". Applodion (talk) 13:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Third opinion by an uninvolved editor requested by reviewer. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:49, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
    • 3O Response: I agree that the honorific title shouldn't be part of the article title (WP:TITLESINTITLES), and that parenthetic disambiguation would be the accepted practice. I understand that other stuff exists but I don't feel there's a strong case for including the title here. I would also note that the purpose of disambiguation isn't to uniquely identify the subject, but the article. There's no problem if there are other (commanders) so long as they don't have articles. (We can't worry about disambiguating from pages that don't exist yet or we'd never be able to make a decision.) From reading the article, my feeling is that he is primarily notable as a militant. I ran some pageview stats (sorry, tried linking but the pipes in the URL broke the DYKsubpage template) and it seems to me there are a couple other articles with Nemat in their titles that are ranked higher (i.e.: Nemat Shafik, Marina Nemat), so I'd suggest Nemat be made a disambiguation page and this article be moved to Nemat (militant) or somesuch. If this isn't enough to decide on a course of action, please consider listing the article at Wikipedia:Requested moves. – Reidgreg (talk) 17:35, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • In case that it is alright to change it to a very generalized title, Nemat (militant) seems to be the best solution as it excludes neither his Taliban nor ISIL career. Applodion (talk) 19:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks to Reidgreg (talk · contribs) for the third opinion. I will create the disambig page. Looking forward to seeing the article move.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 03:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Here is the disambig article Nemat (name).--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 04:21, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
May I suggest a hat note to this disambig article be included in an appropriate place in this article?--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 04:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
I found one other 'Nemat' biography and five 'Nemat' settlement articles and thought it made sense to put them all in the one DAB page, so I expanded it a little and moved it to Nemat, then created a redirect from Nemat (disambiguation). I then moved and hatnoted the article, and piped the links in the hooks above. (Hope this is okay; I'm not great at reviewing DYKs but I like to help where I can.) – Reidgreg (talk) 18:11, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
@Reidgreg: thanks for that. Didn't see the locations, and that appears to be a proper move and content contribution. With that, given that issues with MOS:BLPLEAD have been thoroughly explained away, I think all the issues which I had with this DYKN have been resolved. A new uninvolved reviewer is needed to check this nomination. I don't see why it shouldn't easily pass at this point.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 18:44, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
- Length, Date, Cite, Earwigs, and QPQ check. ALT4 approved. Mifter (talk) 22:50, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
@RightCowLeftCoast:@Reidgreg:@Mifter: Thank you all for your patience and help during this DYK process. Applodion (talk) 12:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
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