User talk:Gabby Merger

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Arius edit reverted[edit]

Your changes seem to be for the worse. First, my main complaint against the article was that it implied that Constantine and Licinius "legalized" (and "formalized" whatever that means) Christianity. This is incorrect. Christianity was made illegal by Diocleatian in 303, and was legalized when the persecution was ended by Galerius in 311. You might be thinking of the so called "Edict of Milan" in 313...but this wasn't really an "edict", had no legal force, and anyhow Licinius and Constantine could not have legalized something that was already legal. So the current version of the article still contains the major error. Introducing Gallienus makes the paragraph worse, since he made Christianity legal a half century before the time period being spoken of...it would be better to have no reference made to him, especially since as it stands it seems to imply that he just acted, since Christianity is "newly" legalized. Anyhow I'm not sure where you are coming from. I have made clear my point...the current article implies that Constantine legalized Christianity...he did not. Are you arguing against this point?Ocyril (talk) 23:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

hello. I understand what you're saying in a sense, but the problem is that the current established and SOURCED view and position is that Constantine "legalized" the Christianity of the time. You can disagree with that view or conclusion all you want, but if you don't have sources for your own view, then it's just personal POV and SYNTHESIS. And then removing stuff you personally don't like or have problems with. You act as if this "Constantine formalized or legalized the Christianity of the time" is some concocted view of some past Wikipedia editor...when it's not. Your position is what needs to be sourced and proven. Wikipedia does NOT care what is "true", only if something is SOURCED. And the view that Constantine did in fact issue an "edict" in 313 A.D., etc etc, is the sourced and established view. So again, your constant removing and deleting of sentences you don't like or don't agree with is against WP policy if the sentences you are removing are established and sourced views and positions. You can have personal disagreements (and even be correct theoretically, though in this I do NOT think you really are correct), but your personal view on the "edict" (and even discounting it as even being an "edict") are NOT what are to guide your editing decisions, in true NPOV and referenced manner. Constantine legalized "Christianity" at the time, by DE-CRIMINALIZING it, and where it was NOT an arrestable offense to be a "Christian". What exactly is the big problem? Gabby Merger (talk) 23:17, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for responding. I'm not sure how to include a source for something that I think needs to be removed. But as it stands there doesn't seem to be a citation for the claim that Constantine "legalized" Christianity. Here is a quote from Barnes, "...the Christians did not obtain legal toleration for the first time in 313, but had already obtained it in 311." (Constantine, pg. 95, 2014). Also, Frend, speaking of the "Edict of Toleration" (of Galerius, in 311), "The edict formally ended persecution, freed imprisoned Christians, and restored Christianity to the de facto situation which it had enjoyed for a generation prior to 303." (The Rise of Christianity, 480). Or, again, see Henry Chadwick, "The intensity of Galerius' feeling is shown by the edict he issued on 30 April 311 when he was dying in great pain. He explains that he had tried to persuade the Christians to return to the religion of the forefathers...and he now grants them toleration and the right of assembly..." (The Early Church, pg. 122). Also, i disagree with your suggestion that "Constantine did in fact issue an 'edict' in 313 A.D. etc etc, is the sourced and published view.". I don't think any modern reputable historian would refer to the edict of Milan as an edict (although they very often refer to it as the "edict" of Milan, or the so-called "edict" of milan, to conform with the general consensus that it wasn't an edict), and even if it was an edict all historians would recognize that the Edict of Toleration in 311 was what ended the persecution and legalized Christianity, not the "edict" of Milan (whatever its legal character). I think that the idea that Constantine legalized Christianity in 313 is more like a common historical "myth", like Columbus being the only one who thought that the earth was a sphere in 1492, rather than anything like an "established view". Anyhow it should be removed because it is wrong and doesn't make any sense. I have provided three citations. Is that sufficient?Ocyril (talk) 23:57, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Where in the paragraph do you see the word "313"? It doesn't even actually say that. So it could be "311" as you say, as "Emperor Gallienus" is mentioned there now too. The point is that it's an established fact that "Christianity" was ILLEGAL for a while around the time of Constantine and around "311" and "313" ish. So? But the actual date "313" is not even in the paragraph. So the argument here about that is somewhat moot anyway. Gabby Merger (talk) 01:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't that is true. But it does say that Constantine legalized Christianity (I assumed that you thought that he had done so in 313--but you are right that is besides the point). But the point is that it says that Constantine legalized it; he did not. I think I have made myself clear...Christianity was legalized by the emperor Galerius in 311, not by Constantine. Constantine did not "legalize" Christianity. Any statement implying that he did needs to be removed. I would remove the entire first sentence. It would be better if it could be replaced with something that gets at what you are trying to say (that it "was ILLEGAL for a while around the time of Constantine" etc.). I invite you to make the edit since you keep reverting mine...just edit it so that it does not imply that Constantine (or Licinius) legalized Christianity. Thanks.Ocyril (talk) 02:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
O one more thing...I suspect you are confusing Gallienus and Galerius. Gallienus made Christianity legal in the 260s, for the first time in Roman history. Galerius ended the Great Persecution in 311. That's why i object to your including Gallienus in the article. You should also remove any reference to him.Ocyril (talk) 03:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I made the correction to make it Galerius. And since HE is mentioned there then the "legalized" is fine, because it doesn't just say "legalized", but also "formalized", which Constantine definitely had a part in. Gabby Merger (talk) 05:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you that is an improvement. But I still don't think it is ok. It reads, "After Galerius and later Emperor Licinius and Emperor Constantine legalized and formalized the Christianity of the time..." To me this means that Galerius, Licinius, and Constantine legalized and formalized Christianity (the latter did so "later"...though how you can legalize something after it has already been legalized is not clear to me). It still clearly states that Constantine legalized Christianity. This is incorrect. If you are suggesting that the sentence is saying that Galerius legalized Christianity, and, later, Licinius and Constantine "formalized" it, then that should be made more clear. I still wouldn't like it very much, because I'm not really sure what "formalize" means in this context, but i suspect that it means something so vague and insubstantial that it can't really be untrue (because it doesn't really mean anything). I think it would be preferable to say something meaningful, but would be satisfied if it merely was not false. Why not just remove any reference to Constantine or Licinius and get rid of "formalize"? Or how bout, "After Galerius legalized Christianity, and Constantine and Licinius continued a policy of toleration...etc." or something to that effect.Ocyril (talk) 06:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
It does NOT "clearly" say that Constantine "legalized" it, NECESSARILY. You're wrong for saying that it "clearly" says that, as there's at least (because the other fellows are mentioned there too) some AMBIGUITY, in that sense. Because the "formalized" could theoretically be the only thing applied to Constantine, in the sentence, and the "legalized" more so to the "Galerius" character. The point is there's NO big need to fuss THIS MUCH over THIS, bro. Seriously. Constantine DE-CRIMINALIZED it by saying "you're all Christians now". It was NOT always "legal". By your own admission, it went back and forth to some degree. But again, the "formalized" word would be (per your protests etc) more with the Constantine, and the "legalized" more with the Galerius. There's no super "clear" anything that the "legalized" is by Constantine, necessarily, in that sentence, the way it's worded. Gabby Merger (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
First...just to be clear, I'm still unsure of where you stand on the main issue we are arguing about here: whether Constantine legalized Christianity or not. You say, "Constantine DE-CRIMINALIZED it by saying "you're all Christians now"." This is incorrect. Constantine did not "de-criminalize" Christianity...Galerius did. I have provided several citations to the effect that it was Galerius, not Constantine, who legalized Christianity. Can we agree on that point? I concede that the sentence does not necessarily imply that it was Constantine who "legalized" it (although, at the least, it is badly written...its like saying that "Bill Clinton, and, later, George Bush ran for president on the Democratic ticket and went to Yale" ?! this doesn't "necessarily" imply that George Bush was a Democrat...but that would be the most natural interpretation of the sentence), but since you agree that it is ambiguous, it would obviously be preferable to resolve that ambiguity (assuming you concede that it is incorrect to assert that it was Constantine who legalized Christianity). Also, I think I have made it pretty clear why I think this is so important: there is widespread belief, DESPITE the academic consensus, that Constantine legalized Christianity. I think, since you do not think its important, I can edit it in a way that you would be completely satisfied with. Can I give it a try without you instantly reverting it?Ocyril (talk) 21:11, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
No, I don't agree. I told you that. Constantine legalized Christianity, by ending the persecution (legally) of Christians. For some oddball reason you want to minimize or deny that fact. But National Geographic says this: "Emperor Constantine I is often credited with converting the Roman Empire to Christianity. In fact, though he ended the persecution of Christians and eventually converted, some historians debate the true nature of his faith." Did you catch that? It says clearly that Constantine ENDED (how so? BY LEGAL "EDICTS" OR "DECREES" OR WHATEVER THE HECK YOU WANNA CALL IT...but it was a LEGAL degree) the persecution of professed Christians. Logically thereby LEGALIZING it. Not sure why you have to be so super uptight nit-picky and fussy over THIS point in this article!!!! Look what else it says in the National Geographic article on "Constantine the Great" article, farther down in its page: "Constantine faced Western Roman Emperor Maxentius at the Tiber River's Mulvian Bridge in A.D. 312....The next year (meaning 313) Constantine, now the Western Roman Emperor, and Eastern Roman Emperor Licinius signed the Edict of Milan, which finally ensured religious tolerance for Christians. The agreement granted freedom of worship to all, regardless of deity, and brought an end to the Age of Martyrs, which had begun after Jesus' death. Christians were also given specific legal rights such as the return of confiscated property and the right to organize dedicated churches." "Legal rights" were given. Thereby "LEGALIZING" it. So as I said, no, I do NOT (and never did) actually "agree" with you on this. Ok, so from this, it seems there are (reliable) sources that at least kind of sort of disagree with your view on this matter. Let's LET IT GO already. Because if you delete either the whole paragraph again, or even that part of the paragraph, you will be reverted. Because in fact, I'm now putting this National Geographic ref IN the paragraph. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't want to minimize the fact for some "odd ball" reason. I want to deny the fact because it isn't true. According to Wikipedia on 'reliable sources': "If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science." The National Geographic Web Page does not trump the academic peer review sources that I have cited (3 to your 1). The National Geographic web page is contributing to the problem. You understand the historical sequence of events in the early 4th century correct? Initially Christianity was legal, then Diocletian initiated the Great Persecution in 303, which lasted until it was ended by Galerius in 311. After Galerius' edict Christianity was once again legal. Constantine did have a policy of returning Christian property, so he did give them greater legal rights after 313 (and even before then in territories he ruled)...that is perfectly true. Maybe you can add something to that effect...that Constantine gave greater legal rights to Christians (but he did not make Christianity legal--How could he? it was already legal. How could he make something legal that was already legal?). I will gather more sources...as I said, that Constantine did NOT legalize Christianity is the academic consensus, and peer reviewed articles from the academic community should trump a web page on National Geographic I would think. Let me quote all of the Timothy Barnes (the leading scholar on Constantine) citation that I quoted earlier to try and convince you: "'In the year 313 Constantine guaranteed legal toleration for the Christians in the Roman Empire through the Edict of Milan.' So have we all learned at our school desks, and yet not a single word of that sentence is true. For the Christians did not obtain legal toleration for the first time in 313, but had already obtained it in 311; the originator of this legal measure was not Constantine, but Galerius; and there never was an 'Edict of Milan' which concerned itself with the questions of the Christians. Admittedly, a document which people are in the habit of calling bu this name is still preserved in its original wording. But, first, this document is no edict; second, it was not issued in Milan; third, it was not issued by Constantine; and, fourth, it does not grant legal toleration, which the Christians had already possessed for some time, to the whole empire: its content has a much more restricted significance." (Barnes, Constantine, 95). Although I disagree with Barnes suggestion that the so called "Edict of Milan" has limited significance (I think it is extremely important and indicative of Constantine's continuing policy of general religious toleration), everything else he says is spot on, and you will have a hard time coming up with a modern academic historian to contradict him. Thanks.Ocyril (talk) 22:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Your own words "After Galerius' edict Christianity was once again legal. Constantine did have a policy of returning Christian property, so he did give them greater legal rights after 313 (and even before then in territories he ruled)". So the point is that AT LEAST IN SOME SENSE Constantine (it could be said in some broad manner, given even admitted facts) "legalized" Christianity. National Geographic IS a "reliable" source. Just because you personally don't like it or don't like (or don't agree with) their article on Constantine. National Geographic website is definitely considered a reliable source by Wikipedia. I can maybe agree with you that there was some legal toleration in 311 A.D., but NOT 100% (arguably) as in 313 A.D. In other words, it's NOT necessarily such a black and white issue, as you seem to be making it out. Constantine definitely at least had something to DO with it all (on or before "313 A.D.") Do you know that some theologians, by the way, who are basically what's called "anti-Catholics" (of Protestant ilk mainly) who believe that the Roman Catholic Church actually had its infancy in 313 A.D., and that it did NOT start with Christ and the Apostles in the first century. (The argument being that there was no such thing as the "Vatican" or "College of Cardinals" or "pope" this or that, or fish hats and mitres and "nuns" or the usual Catholic nomenclatures such as "Mary Mother of God" and "Father Peter" etc etc, in the first century. But that type of stuff actually was a corruption that began later, and really became more so in "313" (or maybe 311, depending on your view)) Side point. Anyway, bro, again, the fact is that Constantine played a role, and had some parts in the matter, so you ARE minimizing a historical (and sourced) fact, that IS true (at least in some ways). You ask in your comment "how could he make something legal that was already legal?" Well in that in 311 it was NOT 100% legal in every aspect necessarily...as there was arguably a PROCESS. 311-313. In other words, it could be said, that Constantine made it MORE "legal". As (by your own concession it seems) the professed "Christians" did NOT have all the legal rights QUITE YET before 313. Not everything. That's all, man. Please. I appreciate you being careful and trying to keep things accurate, but let's not go overboard here. You can't deny that at least some (reliable and used) sources do say that Constantine had a hand in the formalizing and legalizing (more so) of the Christianity of the time, in Rome etc. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 23:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Gabby you are really reaching. I agree that Constantine gave Christians the right to reaquire property in 313 that had been lost in the Persecution. He did not make it legal. It was 100 percent legal in 311, after Galerius's edict of toleration. He certainly played a huge role, the major role,of any emperor in the process of the empire transitioning from a pagan to a (later) Christian state. He preferred Christians and gave them all kinds of legal benefits, preferences in appointments...he gave bishops legal jurisdiction of cases (and didnt allow even allow an appeal), he made laws obviously beneficial to Christians etc. etc. Your suggestion that he made it "more legal" by allowing Christians access to property is...I dunno...a really silly argument (sorry to sound insulting). I agree that Christians acquired more legal rights after 311...under Constantine, under Gratian, or Theodosius etc. (why not say that Theodosius legalized Christianity, since he made it "more legal" since Christians had more legal rights under Theodosius than under Constantine...you see the absurdity of your argument?). I do admit, however, that you can find many sources that support your contention that he did make Christianity legal...even many more than I can...but this is only because it is a widespread misunderstanding which has even been taught in schools. But it isn't true, and you cannot find academic, peer reviewed material that will support your contention; I can gather many citations. It really is a very clear cut issue. I guess we cannot come to an agreement but...since my argument, and my citations are superior to yours (in my opinion), I think we ought to go with my suggestion rather than yours yes (lol)? We have to have this issue resolved by someone else. I don't really know how it works but...I am pretty sure that objective non-interested observers are going to find my argument more persuasive than yours. (But its not really MY argument, its the consensus of the academic community who specialize in this area of study). At any rate I am willing to let someone else decide the issue. There does not seem to be much interest on the talk page. You clearly know much more about editing than I do. How can we have this issue decided by some sort of arbitrator? Thanks.Ocyril (talk) 23:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Maybe we can post this entire discussion on the talk page? and some other contributors will chime in and establish a consensus? Just one more attempt to convince you...consider this thought experiment...Lets say marijuana was legalized in Colorado in January 2014...Lets say in January 2016, the state of Colorado decides that all of the property that it had confiscated in marijuana drug busts should be returned to the owners...now, when did Colorado legalize marijuana? Clearly they did so in 2014 right? They didn't make it "more legal" in 2016...you agree? The same is true in the case of Constantine and Christianity. It was illegal when being Christian was a criminal offense, and it was legalized when being Christian was no longer a criminal offense. It was no longer illegal to be a Christian after Galerius and the edict of Toleration in 311, and Constantine had nothing to do with it. Thanks.Ocyril (talk) 01:04, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


I was gonna ask you that myself! Why have you been writing all this stuff on my personal user talk page, instead of on the ARTICLE talk page? Anyway, you do admit that there are sources supporting the view. But you bringing up "Theodosius" does NOT necessarily negate my point that Constantine ADDED more legal rights to the professed Christians of the time, and in effect "made it more legal". So what if maybe others did too? Doesn't necessarily cancel out the factual point. Anyway, yeah, why did you even do this on my page in the first place, and not the article talk page? But regardless, there are valid sources that support the GENERAL AND NOT-SO-BLACK-AND-WHITE POSITION THAT CONSTANTINE AT LEAST HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE "LEGALIZATION" OF THE PROFESSED CHRISTIANS IN THE EARLY FOURTH CENTURY A.D. Gabby Merger (talk) 02:14, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


I see now, looking at the history, that you do disagree with me. You say, "it mentions both emperors, and is valid and overall accurate. "Christianity" before those two emperors was NOT "legalized"...but actually considered criminal." You are incorrect, for the reasons I have stated. I will get you some citations that you can look at so we can avoid an edit war. But, again, you are incorrect to assert that Christianity was criminal before Licinius and Constantine in 313...Galerius made it legal again in 311.Ocyril (talk) 23:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

The first sentence is certainly inaccurate. First, it implies that the Catholic Church was "newly" legalized...as if for the first time, which is incorrect. The Christian Church was legalized by Gallienus in the mid 3rd century. Second, although it was made illegal during the "Great Persecution", it was not made legal once again by either Constantine or Licinius; Galerius made it legal once again by promulgating his Edict of Toleration in 311. The rest of the paragraph is, strictly speaking, not inaccurate, so i will leave it...even though (maybe) it anachronistically suggests that "homoousious" was a watchword for Athanasius from the very beginning, whereas the truth is he only emphasized that term long after the initial "controversy" (after 340). I think it would be better just to eliminate the whole paragraph, but will compromise by eliminating only the first sentence which is incorrect. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocyril (talkcontribs) 16:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

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Cornell NYC Tech[edit]

Nice work on the edits to Cornell NYC Tech. I'm not sure what you meant by information that was removed but this is what the article looked like before a couple of us had a crack at cleaning it up. Scary stuff. I actually went to the Cornell Wikiproject to ask if more editors could chip in and add some info - not sure if you saw it there or just stumbled across it but thanks for contributing. Cheers, Stalwart111 12:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

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For writing the article on Cornell NYC Tech :). Ironholds (talk) 02:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

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Boston Marathon edits by Kennvido[edit]

I think we might have a troll onhand. Kennvido also removed reliable, cited info about the claims about a suspect that I and another editor had placed. I've replaced it, but looks like this person has a habit. It's been awhile since I've edited Wikipedia, but this kind of behavior sure is frustrating. — Yksin (talk) 22:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

And he or she just deleted the stuff you replaced, again. Again, with no explanation. I can't keep up with it... I'm at work. Is an admin needed? — Yksin (talk) 22:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know. Yes, I believe I remember this character from the past. Not sure what his problem is. But it's not something I would ever even THINK of putting up with. Gabby Merger (talk) 23:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy[edit]

I'll thank you not to accuse me of violating some nebulous "policy" by reverting your incorrect edit. Elizium23 (talk) 03:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Read what I wrote on your talk page. There was NO "incorrect edit" on my part. And it's not "nebulous" that you should always leave a comment or explanation when reverting someone. Also, NOT to revert at all if it's not vandalism or incorrect. You failed to explain just how my edits were "incorrect". But just rudely reverted. Not cool...and NOT something I would tolerate. Explain at least why you felt the need to disrespect my edits. Thanks. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Your edit was incorrect, and I have partially reverted it for that reason. The "Orthodox" section covers both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox traditions. "Eastern Orthodox" is unnecessarily specific and incorrect for that section. You are more than welcome to cite chapter and verse of which policy I have violated by reverting you. I'm just dying to hear it. Elizium23 (talk) 03:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
If in the context more than just "Eastern Orthodox" was being referred to, then maybe I can understand... But then again, why not have "Eastern and Oriental Orthodox"? Saying "Orthodox" can sound a bit incomplete. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

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Bible: Pseudepigrapha on July 23[edit]

Hello Gabby,

My name is Jeremiah, and I noticed that you edit the Bible article plenty on times_ Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible _I just want to ask you for a favor in that article. I have scrolled the article plenty of times, and I didn't see much mention or if any information regarding the Pseudepigrapha. Can you please insert some information about the Pseudepigrapha I only read the articles to give suggestions to users who are dedicated to their articles, but I try not to edit the articles of dedicated users such as yourself. I hope that the Pseudepigrapha would be noticed by readers. That is all...

-Jeremiah A.
 Thank You  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BIBLEDIT SENTINEL (talkcontribs) 23:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC) 

A barnstar for you![edit]

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Thank you so much Gabby for the quick response to my request on article: Bible -- Cheers -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 06:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

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Dominican Republic[edit]

I'm still waiting for your reply to this message since yesterday. I assumed you had found better things to do in the meantime, but clearly this is not the case as you found the time to revert my changes with the bewildering explanation that "you never wrote anything in the talk page for me to answer" and even dropping me a vitriolic message on my talk page, complaining that "You wrote zero. So as I said, ADDRESS IT IN TALK". The message for you to answer is there, if you can't or won't read it it's not my fault. And I told you twice already, your manners are terrible and if you don't make a little effort to be a little more civil don't be surprised if people respond in kind. Regards.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 06:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I opened a dispute resolution request here about this matter.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
A decision was taken at DRN, if you revert again I will report you to WP:ANI.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 01:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
There was no final decision made, just an arbitrary closing of the discussion...with my last comment un-answered. Not cool. Hardly anyone even participated, so don't give me that. Report what you want... It doesn't matter. Save your threats. The discussion was never completely finished, no matter what TransporterMan wrongly prematurely did or said. Finish up what we were talking about, and try addressing my last point and last question, instead of dodging it. Thanks. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
it remains closed now. Fine. I won't pursue this nonsense. I leave it alone. As TransporterMan's big issue and hang-up was "if you don't provide reliable source for that pronunciation" then so forth....but the problem is that last point was un-answered...and discussion was closed prematurely... it's whatever though.
I'm not pursuing this thing anymore. It's too trivial overall. It just seems that French dominance and involvement in DR's very formation seem to be under-played and watered down too much by certain parties. And Wikipedia should not be that way, when it comes to historical facts and points. That's all I was saying really. The pronunciation issue is debatable admittedly, but made its point in a way. Obviously France had the pronunciation from way back, and its pertinent (arguably) to the point (factual and historical point) that France was also involved in DR's very existence, formation, and development, and culture.
But even so, instead of dodging my last point and question, why not address it? The last thing I wrote was in RESPONSE to what YOU wrote just before that, about "French rule and involvement" supposedly coming much later, etc. If that's the case, why is the whole "French rule" matter brought up so early in the article? Instead of evading that point (which really refutes your claim that it was so much later etc) why not address it? That's all I was saying.

Your comments about Twinkle[edit]

Hi Gabby, re your edits to the Twinkle talk page: please be aware that Twinkle is merely a tool that users may use to roll back others' edits. As the Twinkle information page states, users who use Twinkle take full responsibility for their edits made using Twinkle. Please contact the editor who made the edit in question to discuss this issue. Thanks, — This, that and the other (talk) 07:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposing to rename the page Nontrinitarianism to Non-Trinitarianism[edit]

Since you are a contributor to the Nontrinitarianism page, please share your thoughts regarding renaming the page in order to try to reach consensus. You can find the discussion here: Talk:Nontrinitarianism#nontrinitarianism_or_non-Trinitarianism.3F

Many thanks in advance... Dontreader (talk) 01:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


Nontrinitarianism[edit]

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"Luke was Jewish"[edit]

Regarding your message. I am not following you around. Your edits are simply bleeping on a number of pages I have watch-listed. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. It just seemed a bit weird. That's why I asked. I didn't want to assume 100% for sure. Overall, I've noticed your hard work on WP, and I've appreciated it, and agreed usually. So I don't know where this stuff is coming from recently. Anyway, as I said...
it actually IS a notable opinion, held by a number of scholars, regardless or not if it's the "majority view". The point is why delete or hide that sourced information? No valid reason to do that. The edit is accurate and sourced. Stop edit-warring and disrespecting valid edits and additions, that are referenced and are apropos to the context and paragraph. Just because you (or maybe some others) DON'T LIKE. That's against WP policy. And suppressing information and points from potential readers is not the wise or proper course.


As for your wrong statement that "Paul says Luke was uncircumcised". Paul never EXPLICITLY said that. It's not worded that way. Read it again, in Colossians. This idea that Paul clearly said that Luke was "uncircumcised" is an old sloppy TRADITIONAL talking point. But doesn't hold up, under more careful, more critical, and closer analysis.
The argument is made that, as Luke is not mentioned in the list of those of “the circumcision”, he therefore must not be a Jew. However, this is very slim evidence, indeed. In the above reference, Paul is speaking of his fellow workers in the preaching ministry. However, Luke was not ever described as being actively involved in the work of preaching, but was rather Paul’s personal physician and historian. It would not be appropriate to put Luke in the list with those who were active in the preaching ministry, regardless of background.
Thus, there are reasons other than background why Luke would not be included in the list of “the circumcision.” It is risky to build a concept on evidence which is so weak, and this is the strongest evidence in the Bible that those who believe Luke was a Gentile use to prove their point.


Also, to be honest, NONE of that really matters anyway. As it doesn't matter what YOU (or I) think Paul meant or said, and even what the "majority view" of drone-ish "scholars" think or write. The mere fact that you have even a few theologians, writers, and ministers, and sources, saying that they believe Luke was either definitely Jewish or probably Jewish (a Hellenic Jew, etc), is enough to warrant at least making mention that some scholars think that. Like, as one of many examples, this one right here. So what??
Just because you personally think Luke was a Gentile is irrelevant. A number of notable scholars and writers (past and present) don't buy that, and say clearly that he was a Hellenic Jew. It's fairly copiously sourced. Don't start an edit-war, over this. Because it's not worth it. The info is valid and sourced, and it stays. Thanks. Revert again, and I revert back. Or bring to article Talk. Gabby Merger (talk) 04:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, I'm also not following you. In ictu and I watch similar Christian pages. Ckruschke (talk) 17:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

Greek Orthodox Church[edit]

Abbey, you really need to read and understand wp:verifiability. You don't have to like it. You just have to accept that this is the basis on which Wikipedia works. Of course Dr. K.'s edits are biased. Of course they are selected because they support his POV. That's the way that Wikipedia works. Getting yourself banned won't stop that happening and it certainly won't correct any mistakes in the article. You need to learn to work within the system that is Wikipedia. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, if something is verified by a reliable source then t is verified. That's the end to the story. You can't remove it, you can only find other material that challenges it, and let the sources speak for themselves. You would have achieved much more by doing a simple Google search to find those sources than by getting engaged in an edit war and arguing ion the talk page. When you find your references you can add whatever you like. It doesn't matter how much you revert or how much you argue, you won't be able to change a single damn thing. Those are the rules. You need to accept them and learn to work with them. If you can't learn to do that, your time here will be brief and frustrating. Mark Marathon (talk) 08:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I never said that those refs can't be used to make the general point or statement. That's fine. What you're not grasping or maybe just not understanding where I'm coming from (or the WP policy regarding this) now is that it doesn't matter how those refs word things, as those refs in question are NOT neutral encyclopedias, and those refs are valid to bring in (no problem) only as far as giving the point that "it's believed"...when dealing with cases like this. I know about "verifiability, not truth". I told you appreciated your time and attention to this matter, but now you seem to missing the point yourself, about simple NPOV wording...that's all. It's not about which ref can or can't be used, per se, to make the general point. But for WP to state dogmatically is another thing. Other refs (do you even agree with that), don't even come close to agreeing with the words or notion that "Greek Orthodoxy came directly from the first century apostles" or "making the sign of the cross was from the apostles" etc? I don't disagree that those refs can be used, but the point is neutral tone...and that WP is not to endorse one position like that, especial in cases like this. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 08:46, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Apologies[edit]

I tagged Taylor Business Institute under speedy deletion criteria A7, yet I must have been something else because such criteria does not cover educational institutions, so I removed the tag almost instantly. Sorry for any stress or inconvenience it might've caused. Ging287 (talk) 13:52, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

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April 2014[edit]

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Talkback[edit]

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Disambiguation link notification for July 7[edit]

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Re:Hades[edit]

I'm not saying the references are unreliable because you added them, but because they are from unreliable, non-academic sources. As for the first ones, are afterlife.co.nz and tentmaker.org authorized to speak for the groups listed? If not, they are just two guys opinions. The last one already has a bible ref, so another source is not needed unless you are making any additional claims about the meaning of the text or interpreting the quoted text. Editor2020 03:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Hades as per User:Editor2020 reverts, including that website, please discuss on Talk page. Do not add back into article without discussion, per WP:EDITWARRING, sorry. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:01, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Recent AFD comments[edit]

Regarding your recent comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Children's immigration crisis, please remember to assume good faith on the part of other editors and refrain from ad hominem attacks. Keep your comments related to the content of the article, and not the nature of the person making the nomination. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 10:59, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but some editors are a bit uptight about certain news events and articles. But point taken. Gabby Merger (talk) 21:03, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

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Spelling of "bioethicists"[edit]

The word "bioethicists" is not hyphenated in common usage, nor is it on Wikipedia (see: Bioethicist. 132.216.227.193 (talk) 02:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

maybe so, but at first you totally undid it even as a WIKI-LINK that I put (which was the main point of what I was trying to do). You undid that part of it also, unnecessarily. You could have just changed it to remove the hyphen, only...at first. I see that you did that afterwards, which is fine. But not with your first revert, because that removed even the wiki-link I did, which was totally valid on my part. But yeah, if you prefer "bioethicists" even though "bio-ethicists" is NOT necessarily "wrong" per se, then fine. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 02:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Hey, thanks so much for the explanation. I had kept the WIKI-LINK that you had created (see old version, though I did not specify this in the 'Edit summary'. This was an oversight on my part and I sincerely apologise for the misunderstanding. Your addition of the WIKI-LINK was a very relevant one and I did not mean to remove that, and I am sorry it must have looked that way. 132.216.227.250 (talk) 04:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

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No edit warring[edit]

If you disagree with my edits to an article, please discuss them on the article's talk page. See Wikipedia:Edit warring. I began the discussion on Talk:Taylor Business Institute after your previous revert. Reverting without addressing my points is not a useful way of trying to resolve a dispute. Ground Zero | t 01:52, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I DID address your point. You just don't see it that way. I left a comment in the edit revert, as to why the word "presently" should be left...because of historical context. How is that "not addressing your point"? Don't lie, and claim "edit warring". I addressed your point, and I gave reasons. YOU are edit-warring also, if that's the case. Gabby Merger (talk) 04:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

September 2014[edit]

Stop icon

Your recent editing history at Moon landing conspiracy theories shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. NeilN talk to me 18:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Michael (archangel)[edit]

Just thought I would say thank you for finding the reference for Spurgeon on the Michael (archangel) page. Dromidaon (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

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Book of Elchasai[edit]

Hello Gabby Merger, I just created my first article ever on Wikipedia: Book of Elchasai, and I would like for you to expand this article as much as possible. I used this site as a reference: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/elchasai.html, but within the site contains many references for sourcing by scholars and church fathers. Perhaps this may give you some interest as this article is around your editing field -- Thnx & Cheers -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Information icon Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be engaged in an edit war with one or more editors. Although repeatedly reverting or undoing another editor's contributions may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, and often creates animosity between editors. Instead of edit warring, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

Copy and pasting[edit]

One of your edits appear to be copy and pasted from another source. We at Wikipedia usually require paraphrasing. If you own the copyright to this material please send permission for release under a CC BY SA license to permissions-en@wikimedia.org per WP:CONSENT.LeadSongDog come howl! 01:19, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Halloween cheer![edit]

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