Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frederick Russell Burnham/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Frederick Russell Burnham[edit]

Frederick Russell Burnham (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ctatkinson (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this well-researched article for FA. After considerable labor by Wikipedians over several months to address earlier issues, this former featured article was promoted to GA last month. After reviewing and incorporating recommended changes, I believe the article now satisfies the criteria for FA. I hope you enjoy the article and I look forward to your comments. Thanks! Ctatkinson (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose at this time (Disclaimer: I initiated the FAR that removed this article's featured status)

  • Multiple formatting errors/inconsistencies in both short cites and bibliography: FN109 is missing page numbers, some books include locations while others don't
  • All books now include locations. FN109, The Days of My Life Volume II, is at Project Gutenberg Australia in text-only format without page numbers, so I've referenced the chapter. Ctatkinson (talk) 18:19, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, but there are still inconsistencies: for example, whether page ranges are abbreviated, some missing info (ex date for Carr in Bibliography), etc
  • Someone ran a bot on the article a couple of days ago and I see it introduced a few small errors in the references. Carr was one of those, and I've just fixed it. I'll have this corrected this weekend. Thanks for letting me know.Ctatkinson (talk) 13:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not done. Further examples include: no citations to Britt; References section is misordered (it's mostly alphabetical, but then I see Montgomery before Hough?); inconsistent in whether states are spelled out or abbreviated; some hyphens rather than endashes in page ranges; etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A list of sources is useful to the reader, so I've added a new ref for Britt to the article even though it is a bit redundant. I've moved Montgomery to its alpha location, and I've spelled out the states. I've been through the hyphens several times, as have other editors, but I can't locate any new issues. Is there a tool you use to check hyphens, or can you show any examples in the article? Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Significant WP:MOS cleanup needed in the article: hyphens/dashes, repeated links, etc
  • Some have, but others have not: for example "3 year old ...12-year old", Scouting in Arizona is linked twice in as many sentences, etc
  • Italics issues have been addressed. Question on dash posed in the above issue.Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some material in the article is unsourced - for example, "he and Blanche settled down to tend to an orange grove in Pasadena, California, but within a year he was back prospecting and scouting"
  • There you have, but that was only an example - the paragraph about Russell, for example, is still unsourced. Please check thoroughly.
  • The paragraph about his grandson Russell is cited. I'll check the article elsewhere to see if I can uncover what you mean, or please provide more detail if you can.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Found Charles Edward Russell (cousin) and added reference. Additional references added elsewhere to eliminate ambiguity. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other material is not supported by the cited source. For example, "Burnham and Armstrong waited until Mlimo entered the cave and started his dance of immunity, at which point Burnham shot Mlimo just below the heart" is cited to this source, which says that they tried to capture him alive and then killed him (and doesn't specify how)
  • Added more detailed reference from van wyk. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which is fine for that instance, but that was again only an example. A quick check finds another, "Also buried at Three Rivers cemetery...", unsupported by the cited source.
  • Done. The newspaper ref already named the family plot, so I've added a reference from Lott with more details of the individuals buried.
  • Okay, again, only an example. Another is that this source does not seem to support "Burnham was put in charge of both the general organization and recruitment from the Southwest". At this point, a thorough check of the article is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. The NYT article uses the term: Western. Southwest is an imperfect substitute; however, Western U.S. is already used in this same sentence. It would be redundant to state this same geographical reference again, so deleting from the Southwest seems like the best option. I've checked again and I don't see other issues, but point out anything you believe we may have missed. Thanks. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of the phrasing used is not neutral or has an inappropriate tone - ex. "Ever the soldier of fortune..." Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doesn't fix the problem, and isn't the only instance.
  • Davis wrote a bio on Burnham for his book Real Soldiers of Fortune, and soldier of fortune is how he describes Burnham. The term is synonymous with mercenary. Does this now make sense, or can you clarify your concern? Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know what the term means, but the description outside of direct quotes is not a neutral one - although not specifically mentioned there, compare WP:W2W. Furthermore, this was only an example of neutrality/tone issues - others, if it would help, include "he struck it rich" and "it was said that he could read the face of nature as easily as most could read their morning newspaper" (the latter could be made a direct quote if applicable). Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added quotes and ref to fix the soldier of fortune issue. Substituted "struck it rick" with "found great affluence". Deleted to the unnecessary analogy about the newspaper.
  • On another look, finding more problems, including a dead link here and some instances of close paraphrasing (ex "His expeditions in Rhodesia were so important that the Royal Geographical Society elected him a Fellow" vs "His expedition was so important that the Royal Geographic Society elected him a Fellow").
  • The URL to minernews went dead during the FAC. I'll need to substitute. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I added the archived link to the minernews article metadata, and simplified the text: After this expedition he was elected a fellow of the Royal Geographical Society.Ctatkinson (talk) 16:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, I would suggest withdrawal to allow time for a thorough check and cleanup of the article. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • We have addressed the far more challenging issues you raised in the earlier FAR, and I think it would be most unfortunate to withdraw this outstanding former FA based on the few examples you have raised in this FAC. With little delay and only minor edits I speedily addressed the concerns you have identified. If you have new issues, I would be glad to take a look at those as well and I will continue to comment / address without delay.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've addressed all of the issues noted above. If you have still have any concerns, let me know. Thanks. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you pinged Nikki lately to see how she feels about the nom? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nikkimaria doesn't seem to be checking here, so I've left another message on her talk page. Did you have any comments on the article? Ctatkinson (talk) 12:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've withdrawn my suggestion for withdrawal, but I'm still finding more issues with this article. I haven't rechecked paraphrasing issues, but while reviewing I also found some prose issues, for example "always careful to keep a rifle within arms length". Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've substituted with: she always kept a rifle nearby.Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The reviewer's opposed statement is now more than a month old. I have promptly addressed all of the actionable objections raised by the reviewer; however, this reviewer does not return regularly to check whether their objection has been addressed. Without clarifying and actionable feedback, I don't know of any action I can take to address this reviewer's objection. Ctatkinson (talk) 02:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Ctatkinson. The problem with this review is that you address the specific examples I point out very promptly, but have not addressed the issues they exemplify. I can return time and again to give you more examples, but "The article has X problem as shown by Y instance" is not adequately solved by "I have fixed Y instance", because it misses instances ABCDE et al of X. So there are still problems with references, there are still issues with tone, etc, and my oppose still stands. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Nikkimaria: If you see continued problems, please keep listing the specific examples so they can be fixed. Either you'll run out of them and the article will be good, or they will remain not fixed and will be a valid reason to oppose. Just talking about generalities is not very helpful, I am afraid. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Support: All issued addressed. Montanabw(talk) 22:10, 19 August 2013 (UTC) Reviewing: An initial wikignoming glance raised the following minor issues for me:[reply]

  1. the footnotes/bibliography have duplications with the "Works/Biographies" sections. The layout is also a bit atypical. My recommendation is that the works actually WRITTEN by Burnham be moved above the references into the article text and specifically identified as such. All remaining works/biographies not used in the footnotes/bibliography should be consolidated into (in my opinion) a "further reading" section, though if you wish to break out the biographies from the scholarly papers, that would be fine. DONE Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I'd like to see the lede bulked out a little more; it's a bit light. His military service is quite extensive and probably needs a better summary in the lead, WP:MOS wants a lead to not be too long, but I think three to four more solid paragraphs is easily doable here. DONE Montanabw(talk) 22:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I popped in "Citation needed" tags where I saw something clearly unsourced. Hope that's more helpful than "stuff needs sourcing." Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]
  4. Kill all use of "whilst." It's just annoying. "While" is more modern use. (JMO, I suppose if we are talking UK English, it's more OK than in US English, but he is an American) Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]
  5. One of the quote boxes overlaps the article text on my computer. I noted the location in hidden text within the article. It's the only one that does this, not sure why. Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]
  6. I stuck some hidden text into the article where I found some issues or had specific questions. Feel free to remove when fixed or addressed. Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]
  7. Work on cleaning up the deadlinks, the WayBack machine can sometimes unearth an archived version of a page. DONE Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  8. More stuff: The quote box that begins "Burnham is the sufficient and heroic figure, model and living example, who inspired and gave..." is "sandwiching" text between it and the topographic map on my browser. That's also a wiki-MOS "crime" you now need to fix. Maybe you don't need two quote boxes in that section, hmmm...? DONE !!!!
  • Comment on Native American issues: First off, when possible to use tribal affiliation, that is nearly always preferable to just saying "Indian" or "Native American." In the examples above, if "Sioux" is as good as you have, then use it, even if you can't narrow it down to the Lakota branch or whomever. Second always capitalize Native American. "big N" Native is acceptable; sometimes "small n" native is viewed as condescending by some Native people today (no uniformity on this, but the ones who care are the ones who will comment, the ones who don't care won't get upset either way.) Montanabw(talk) 03:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Native American issues fixed. I believe all the issues have now been addressed. Ctatkinson (talk) 02:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your helpful review, Montanabw. I have worked on the issues you raised and I believe all are now done. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I supported earlier, so just reiterating that I support this FAC. Montanabw(talk) 17:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Support I've reviewed the article at GA and here, and seen the oppose and the actions taken in response. I believe it meets the criteria.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Comments Support. I made some copyedits and have a few questions before supporting:

    • In "Klondike Gold Rush", it's a bit confusing about how many children he has.
    • Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but I think you could combine footnotes 60 & 61.
    • In "Father of Scouting", you call Burnham "low-key". Really? His exploits sound fairly dramatic to me. It makes sense once you read the "Personal life" section, but seems out of place here.
    • The "Oil wealth" paragraph is kind of short. Do you think it could be lengthened or, if not, combined with another section? Not a deal-breaker, but it does stand out, to my eye. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your insights, Coemgenus. I have worked on the issues you raised and I believe they are now addressed.Ctatkinson (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Great, changed to support. Good luck! --Coemgenus (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Cliftonian[edit]

Support. After a lot of work I think this article now meets the FA criteria and should be promoted. —Cliftonian (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Cliftonian (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Here are my thoughts on the article. I enjoyed reading it and hope the comments below help.
Infobox and lead
  • We don't need the semicolon after "The King of Scouts"
  • Do you think we can fix the weird parentheses issue on the "buried at" parameter?
  • Done. Added a break after place of death. A bit of a kluge but it does the trick. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Indian Wars", while obvious from the context, should probably be "American Indian Wars"
  • Done. The redirection needed to be fixed anyway as the page name seems to have stabilized. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Pleasant Valley War is mentioned in the infobox and lead but is referred to as the Tonto Basin Feud in the body. Perhaps we should make clear these are the same thing
  • Done. Pleasant Valley War is the modern name for the conflict. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Geronimo Campaign is mentioned in the infobox but nowhere else in the article
  • Done. I've added brief reference to this in his early life. I could add more depth, but Geronimo was not a particularly significant part of Burnham's life. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe we should put years next to each wife
  • You don't need commas after each name in the relatives section
  • "Other work" You don't need a full stop (period) at the end here as this is not a sentence. I'm somewhat bemused by this choice of words: "wealthy oil man". Do we really need to say he was a wealthy oil man? Why not just oil man? American spy should probably be U.S. spy
  • Done. I too was bemused when I re-read this. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "known for his service to the British Army in colonial Africa" He was initially in the service of the British South Africa Company, not the British Army. The two are not the same thing. My understanding is that he only actually joined the British Army in 1900, when Roberts took him on and gave him the formal rank of captain.
  • Done. You have it right and I've updated accordingly. It gets a little more complicated because The Bulawayo Field Force militia reported to Gen. Carrington / Maj. Baden-Powell once the regular army arrived in Rhodesia in 1896, but technically Burnham was never in the British army until he joined Robert's HQ in the Boer War. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Born on an Indian reservation in Minnesota, Burnham learned the ways of Native Americans as a boy" They were Sioux, weren't they? Why not say so?
  • Comment. I've left this "as is" for now, but I'm open to further discussion. The Sioux Nation was composed of various tribes, and Burnham spent part of his pre-teen youth with different native americans in California (Cahuilla and others), and later with native americans in Arizona (Apache and others). It is correct to say that he learned the ways of the Sioux, but I thought it might be somewhat more accurate and easier for the reader to say Native Americans. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Burnham had little formal education, attending high school but never graduating" Why not just say he "had little formal education, never finishing high school"?
  • Pleasant Valley War and Apache Wars should be wikilinked
  • "Sensing the Old West was becoming too tame" "Sensing" implies that he was definitely correct, which I don't think is what we mean to say; perhaps "Feeling the Old West ..."
  • ", in 1893, Burnham took his family to southern Africa where his background proved useful" This is awkwardly worded and I don't think the last bit really adds anything (we say in the next paragraph he was useful). Perhaps make clear why he went. Maybe something like "Feeling the Old West was becoming too tame, Burnham took his family to southern Africa in 1893, perceiving Cecil Rhodes' Cape to Cairo project as the next undeveloped frontier."
  • Done. Nice editing and application of your subject expertise.
  • "and became Chief of Scouts" but he was already a Chief of Scouts at the time of the Shangani Patrol in 1893? Maybe make clear the significant event was his becoming Chief of Scouts under Roberts.
  • Comment. The completed sentence is: "Burnham distinguished himself in several battles in Rhodesia and South Africa and became Chief of Scouts". I don't see where this sentence limits the use of his Chief of Scouts title to the Boer War, but I do agree that becoming Chief of Scouts under Roberts was a bigger deal than the use of this title in the Matabele Wars -- the Boer War was Burnham's first regular army gig and the number of troops and planning involved was significantly greater. I'm open to further ideas, but to try and keep this simple for the reader I've left this sentence "as is" for now.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was Hammond his son's business partner or his own?
  • Comment. I've modified the sentence by removing Roderick, but to answer your question, John Hammond Sr. considered Fred Burnham to be a member of his family (he says as much in personal correspondence). Burnham Exploration Company was a joint venture between the Burnham and Hammond families, sons Roderick Burnham and Harris Hammond were included on the board, and Fred Burnham served as president. Roderick Burnham was by profession a geologist and an executive at Union Oil at the time the Burnham Exploration Company was incorporated; however, this relationship is probably too detailed and unnecessary for the lead. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With the help of the BSA" Perhaps "With the support of the BSA"
  • That it with this section for now. I'll keep working on your comments about the other sections later today. Thanks again for your help. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Early life
  • Why not say what day he was born on?
  • Do we know what denomination his family was?
  • I presume this was a Sioux Indian reservation?
  • Comment. Most sources say he lived on a Sioux reservation, but some say Winnebago. Both the Mdewakanton and the Ho-Chunk lived in southern Minnesota; however, I'm not sure if it is correct to say that either or both of these tribes are Sioux. Unfortunately, I don't yet know the exact location of Tivoli, Minnesota (a pioneer town, long gone), the 1860 reservation boundaries, or modern the tribal names adequately to answer this question. Little Crow attacked New Ulm in the Dakota War of 1862, but I don't believe he lived on the same reservation as the Burnhams, or at least it's not clear. I've left this as Indian reservation for now. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know where his mother came from in England? We do not need to say she immigrated to America as it is clear from the context; saying she immigrated from England is enough
  • Done. I've referenced and added her birth and immigration data.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • We mention New Ulm, MN being attacked during the Dakota War but we have not made clear how this place is relevant to Burnham.
  • "Rebecca (Elizabeth) Russell Burnham" Was Elizabeth a nickname? If so it should be in quotation marks: Rebecca "Elizabeth" Russell Burnham. Also her name should be given above where she is first mentioned.
  • Done. Elizabeth was her middle name, but she dropped it when she married Burnham. I've removed Elizabeth to avoid further confusion.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Once the Sioux had been driven away the mother returned to find the house burned down. Her young son was safe, fast asleep in the basket and protected only by the corn husks." I think we can merge these two sentences; "... burned down, but her young son was safe, fast asleep in the basket with the corn husks."
*Comment. I've added more context here and edited the passage. I hope this helps. Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why not wikilink Iowa
  • Why not wikilink LA
  • I don't think we need to wikilink bandit to outlaw
  • why not wikilink Arizona Territory
  • "He traveled in northern Mexico and the American Southwest, including Texas and Oklahoma Territory, earning a living as a buffalo hunter, cowboy, and prospector, and he continued working as a scout" Maybe "He traveled in northern Mexico and the American Southwest, including Texas and Oklahoma Territory, continuing his scouting and also earning a living as a buffalo hunter, cowboy and prospector"
  • "The young Burnham eventually went on to attend high school in California but never graduated" Maybe "Burnham eventually went back to California to attend high school, but he never graduated"
  • When did he become a Freemason? Was he one from birth? Where/what is Excelsior Lodge No. 195?
  • Comments. The Mason's are a club and I've seen his 32-degree certificate in the archives at Yale, but I didn't make a copy and I don't have the date it was issued. Each mason is joins and is promoted at a particular lodge; however, his lodge is probably not important to the article, so I've removed this reference.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a "soldier of fortune,"—is this a phrase Burnham used to describe himself, or an appellation applied by somebody else?
  • That it with this section for now. I'll keep working on your comments about the other sections later today. Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Military career
  • "Burnham went on to oversee and lead the Northern Territories (BSA) Exploration Co. expedition" Perhaps "Burnham oversaw and led the Northern Territories (BSA) Exploration Company expedition"
  • "R.I.: "Burnham & Armstrong after the assassination of Mlimo. Matabele warriors in hot pursuit." What is "R.I"?
  • Done. Not sure what this is. It was in a caption and I thought it might be a military term, but I've removed it now.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "due to the ill-fated Jameson Raid" Maybe mention was into the Transvaal
  • Why not give Baden-Powell's full name? We don't even wikilink him?
  • Done. Bad oversight. His full name and wikilink are in the lead, but should be here too.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why not give Frederick Courteney Selous' full name?
  • Done. I fixed the wikilink. 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Why don't we give Carrington's full name? Why don't we wikilink him in the body?
  • Done. Yes, indeed. I'm also disappointed by the brevity of his WP page. I'll need to correct this oversight at some point.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A lot of places throughout the article we use abbreviations ("Gen.", "Maj.", "Co."); try to get rid of these
  • In quoteboxes you don't need to put a full stop (period) at the end of the attribution as it's not a sentence.
  • Wikilink Theodore Roosevelt
  • "paid him a great tribute in his book" Which book?
  • Comment. This phrase appears in several references, but in none of the sources is there a cite for the title of the book.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Say when the Boer War started.
  • "Field Marshal Roberts was appointed" Who is Roberts? Not even a wikilink?
  • Done. Big goof on my part. I've added wikilinks and a bit of background.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he left within the hour" Why not "he left immediately" or "he left within minutes"? Also, why "Although"? Considering the vast distance involved and the urgency of the appointment, one would surely expect him to leave quickly.
  • Why is the wikilink to "Cape Town, South Africa" rather than just Cape Town? People know where Cape Town is.
  • Why don't we link British Army?
  • "Burnham would arrive at the front" Why not simply "Burnham reached the front"?
  • Say when the Battle of Paardeberg was (Feb 1900).
  • you can say veld, not veldt. perhaps also wikilink veld and put it in italics as it's an Afrikaans word
  • mielies, not mealies. perhaps "mealies" (i.e. mielies, or maize)
  • "British March on Pretoria" why is "March" capitalised?
  • "cut-off" → "cut off"
  • Done. 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "He had been scouting alone" → "He scouted alone"
  • "he had all but gotten away" → "he had almost escaped"
  • A few references have hyphens (-) separating page numbers rather than endashes (–). Check on this
  • Done. Another editor fixed these (thank you!). I think we've finally got this one out of the way. Ctatkinson (talk) 00:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why isn't "Distinguished Service Order" linked? This is also not linked in the image caption or the lead.
  • Done. I've added the wikilinks in this section. The lead already has a wikilink from DSO (after Burnham's name).Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "March to Pretoria" again why is "March" capitalised?
  • "Lovat Scouts" shouldn't this be "the Lovat Scouts"?
  • Maybe mention that he commanded the Lovat Scouts.
  • Done. I've also added more background and a couple of refs.
  • "Returning from the Boer War on the RMS Dunottar Castle, July 1900." Dunottar Castle should be italicised. The image caption here is intrusive and large; if you like I can try to make something similar to what we have on the directors image here
  • Comment. The directors image is a great piece of work. How did you do it? Ctatkinson (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Father of Scouting
  • Charterhouse should have a wikilink. It is also not in London but in Surrey (it was based in London, but it moved in 1872). Perhaps put "one of England's most famous public schools", wikilinking public school as this means something very different in the U.S.
  • Why is woodcraft italicised? Perhaps quotation marks are better.
  • "in these African hills" Why do we need to say African hills? We've already made clear where they are.
  • "he fondly told people he "sucked him dry" Oh my.
  • Done. Shame on you! I liked the racy quote, but I've modified the sentence to be more family friendly. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, I wasn't proposing you take it out, I quite liked it and just pointing it out in passing. I wouldn't worry about its "family friendliness" as kids wouldn't get the joke; it should stay in, I think. —Cliftonian (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Both men recognized that wars were changing markedly and the" you need "that" after and and before the
  • " so during their joint scouting missions," you don't need "so"
  • Perhaps change the semicolon between the last two snippets to a full stop (period).
  • When did Baden-Powell write Aids to Scouting?
  • Comment. It was published in 1899. I've now added references and publication dates to the BP books. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "thusly" Is this a word? Shouldn't it be "thus"?
  • Done. I modified the sentence.
  • We mention the BSA, but we don't make clear what this is. (This is particularly confusing because to some eyes "BSA" is more associated with the British South Africa Company, which is also mentioned in this article). Put Boy Scouts of America, with a wikilink.
  • Comment. To make this less confusing, I've spelled out BSA a couple more times and added a couple of wikilinks. I've also avoided the use of BSAC for British South Africa Company in this article. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and he called him a "wonderfully able scout"" Who called who? Make this clearer
  • Done. I broke up the quotes into two sentences.
  • "Burnham — Baden-Powell" This spaced emdash should be an endash, without a space.
  • Done. Someone got to this before me. Thanks! Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mount Baden-Powell in California," put a comma after "Baden-Powell"
  • Why isn't Mount Burnham wikilinked?
  • "and fought in World War I France" word missing here
  • "and was United States Army's Soldier of the Year in 2003" shouldn't it be "the United States Army's"?
Later in life
  • Maybe just "Later life"
  • Wasn't Ghana then called the Gold Coast?
  • Shouldn't it be the Upper Volta?
  • "In 1902–1904" → "Between 1902 and 1904"
  • You shouldn't wikilink the names of modern countries like Kenya:
  • Done. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wasn't it Lake Rudolf rather than Lake Rudolph?
  • "He was one of the original members of the first California State Parks Commission serving from 1927 to 1934" Shouldn't "serving from 1927 to 1934" be in brackets?

Off for now, I will come back for more, hope all this helps —Cliftonian (talk) 10:19, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • John, many thanks for the detailed and helpful comments and the generous investment of your time in reviewing this article. I'll get to work on your questions right away. Ctatkinson (talk) 13:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't forgotten about this, don't worry, I will get back to it either later today or tomorrow. Well done on all the replies above! —Cliftonian (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added alt tags to all of the images. I think that does it for all of your comments, except for the tribal affiliations. Thank you for your insights on how we should address Native American issues. I work on this next. Ctatkinson (talk) 00:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That below wasn't my comment. It was Montanabw (talk · contribs) (who forgot to sign his post; I've moved it up to prevent further confusion). Good work so far, I will have some spare time later today so I will have another look through and comment on the later sections. —Cliftonian (talk) 04:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Later life
  • "an old friend from Africa"; while most would realise what you are actually saying, some could misunderstand and think Hammond was actually from SA/Rhodesia, which of course he wasn't. maybe reword to "an old friend from his time in Africa", or similar
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have some numbers here over 10 written in long form ("eighteen", etc), which should be just as 18, 19 etc (unless they are at the start of a sentence). Look through for these
  • "refused to make use of" → "refused to use"
  • Do we know why Wilson didn't want Roosevelt's volunteers?
  • Comment. I've added additional background to this piece and renamed the section: World War One.Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personal life
  • "Burnham died when he was 86 on September 1, 1947 of heart failure at his home in Santa Barbara, California." maybe "Burnham died of heart failure at the age of 86, on September 1, 1947 at his home in Santa, Barbara, California."
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At a private ceremony he was buried at Three Rivers, California, near his old cattle ranch, La Cuesta." → "He was buried at a private ceremony at Three Rivers, California, near his old cattle ranch, La Cuesta."
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think you need to give his first wife's full name again here; just "Blanche" is sufficient
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in 19th century Rhodesia" maybe "1890s Rhodesia"; also don't think "for a time" is necessary here
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't need to say again who Roderick is
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and the Montana cowboy "Pete" Ingram who survived the Shangani Patrol massacre along with Burnham" Maybe "and "Pete" Ingram, the Montana cowboy who had survived the Shangani Patrol massacre along with Burnham"
  • "Nada (May 1894 – May 19, 1896), Burnham's daughter who was the first white child born in Bulawayo, died of fever and starvation during the Siege of Bulawayo" Maybe "Nada (May 1894 – May 19, 1896), Burnham's daughter, was the first white child born in Bulawayo; she died of fever and starvation during the town's siege."
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She was buried three days later in the Pioneer Cemetery, plot No. 144, in Bulawayo, Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe)" Maybe "She was buried three days later in the town's Pioneer Cemetary, plot No. 144."
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "1897–Oct 3, 1905" space the endash here
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His brother was in California the night Bruce died and yet Roderick knew from a dream exactly how it happened. The night of the drowning Roderick awoke screaming and rushed to tell his grandmother about his nightmare." Maybe "His brother, Roderick, was in California the night Bruce died, yet claimed to know from a dream exactly what had happened. Roderick awoke screaming and rushed to tell his grandmother about his nightmare."
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a teen" → "During his teenage years"
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "went to Africa" is Americocentric. To African readers he would be coming to Africa! Perhaps "moved to Africa"
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't need to say Johannesburg, South Africa, people know where Jo'burg is
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Howard went to Africa and became a mining engineer in the gold mines of Johannesburg, South Africa and later wrote a text book on Modern Mine Valuation." → "Howard moved to Africa, became a mining engineer in the Johannesburg gold mines, and later wrote a text book on Modern Mine Valuation".
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't wl Switzerland
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His first cousin" Whose? Fred's, right?
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Film and stage accounts
  • Have copyedited a bit here myself
  • "The picture was shot on location in and around Bulawayo by RPM Film Studios." Need a ref for this.
*Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have done a bit more copyediting earlier in the article as well. I think it is shaping up nicely now, well done. —Cliftonian (talk) 08:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need footnotes in the lead per MOS, so I have taken them out. I will try to do the imagemap for the picture later today —Cliftonian (talk) 08:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ok the imagemap is in! —Cliftonian (talk) 09:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Way cool! It is much better than the long caption I had to include previously. Nicely done. Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all of your review work and improvements. I need to take another look at the article tomorrow and see what I can do to work about a few small issues that we have introduced with these recent edits. Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Alright, I think that does it. Unless you see something else, I believe we are done. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Me too. I'm capping this and supporting above. —Cliftonian (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Image check - all OK (OTRS, PD-age, PD-USGov-USGS). Sources and authors provided. Just 1 request:

  • File:Burnham_nm_11may1941.jpg and File:RodFly.jpg - as most images in this article come from the same source via OTRS ticket #2013061810006694, those should be OK. However, could you get them tagged with OTRS-tags aswell (or alternatively add a publication date)?
  • All other images from the Burnham family have either an OTRS-ticket or additional publication details - OK. GermanJoe (talk) 11:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for looking at the images, GermanJoe. I'll review the two you mentioned. Ctatkinson (talk) 00:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OTRS ticket updated and the photos updated. PumpkinSky talk 02:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment. 1) "Film and stage accounts" and "Tributes" are in an unnecessary and MoS-unrecommended bullet point list. Please rewrite to prose. 2) Add Queen's South Africa Medal and British South Africa Company Medal to infobox. 3) The article should respect WP:RED; there are no red links but I see some terms that should have them, i.e. Northern Territories (BSA) Exploration Company, Wa Syndicate or Mlimo. Please consider adding more to encourage creation of new articles. 4) "Assassination of Mlimo" section mentions a sacred cave and a village, can we add their respective names? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your excellent input, Piotrus. I've now addressed items 2 & 3. For item 4, although none of my sources provide names for the sacred cave or the nearby village, I did come across some additional information on the location -- not many miles from the Mangwe district. I've added this to the article and the a source reference. Tomorrow I'll work on item 1. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe I have now addressed the issues you raised. Thanks again for your help. Ctatkinson (talk) 17:26, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comments This candidate has been here for a long time, but problems still remain and I will be archiving this in a few minutes. I see a mixture of dashes in the references, a template error with DeGroot, E. B. (July 1944), this odd looking citation Los Angeles Times 1900, p. I15 and inconsistencies in page ranges. These should have been fixed a long time ago. Graham Colm (talk) 07:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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