Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stanley Green/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:18, 15 September 2009 [1].

Stanley Green[edit]

Nominator(s): SlimVirgin talk|contribs 02:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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A self-nom, a short article about a London eccentric that people who visited Oxford Street in London a lot during the last 20-30 years are likely to have seen at some point. The article exhausts the reliable sources, so far as I know. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 02:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Green became one of London's much-loved eccentrics, though his campaign to suppress desire, as one commentator put it, was not invariably popular, leading as it did to two arrests for obstruction and the need to wear green overalls to protect himself from spit." Is that the passive voice, or something? Seems odd. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs)

It's a particular writing style. :) SlimVirgin talk|contribs 02:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good enough. LOL. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking there are too many commas. The "He walked up and down Oxford Street six days a week, reduced to four days from 1985 onwards, campaigning until 6:30 pm among the shoppers, usually around Oxford Circus, then spent Saturday evenings with the cinema crowds in Leicester Square." paragraph, for instance. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Young women in particular attracted his advice, including that they would find it impossible to deceive their grooms that they were virgins on their wedding night." is awkward. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:16, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although I wouldn't necessarily change the "Green became one of London's much-loved eccentrics..." sentence, I'd recommend looking again at any sentence that has 2+ commas, and see if just putting in a period would improve it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed the two sentences you mentioned, [2] and I'll look for any other obvious ones. I have a liking for long sentences that I know not everyone shares. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've tweaked the virgin sentence again. It now reads: "His advice that young women should eat a low-protein diet—because "You cannot deceive your groom that you are a virgin on your wedding night!"—was not always appreciated, and led to his being arrested twice for public obstruction, in 1980 and again in 1985." SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looking pretty good. There's one single sentence paragraph left in the "Posthumous recognition" section. It should probably be merged into the other paragraph. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 21:13, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The second reference is a dead link. Please fix it. Warrior4321 04:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Cquotes? I've always thought they were gaudy; I like my articles to look like articles. Are you calling these quotes pull quotes? Ling.Nut (talk) 06:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they are pull quotes. I like to use them, partly to break up the text, partly to highlight material that there's no clear place for in the article. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 06:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And here I am thinking that a Pull quote is a quote from the article itself... that is, it occurs twice on the page; once in the body text and once in the pull... Ling.Nut (talk) 09:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • "described by Susan Pearce of the University of Leicester as worthy of the cartoonist Heath Robinson". Actually, I think this description should be attributed to W. Januszczak... unless I'm mistaken, it seems that a Januszczak article was reprinted in its entirety in Pearce & Martin (2003)...
  • "Winston Churchill's last cigar" or "Winston Churchill's last cigar before the Italians sued for peace"...? Ling.Nut (talk) 09:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Both fixed. [3] [4] And thank you! I hadn't looked at the top of the Pearce chapter to see that she was actually reproducing a S/Times article. Well spotted. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 10:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tks. But I'm still antsy about the pull quote thing (see my def above). Ling.Nut (talk) 10:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I call them pull quotes whether they cite something in the article or an external text; perhaps blockquote is the better term. If you really dislike them, feel free to remove them. I like to keep them in longer texts to break up the narrative, but in a short article they matter a lot less. Though I do like the quotes. The first is both funny and sad: "it might be very hard to be well behaved with a sexual friend, and to be headstrong in one's lonely bed: HARD to follow a responsible moral-code, in the unmarried years," and the second is heartbreaking, given his situation (given any situation): "Protein wisdom changes your whole life, makes it easier. Passion can be a great torment." SlimVirgin talk|contribs 10:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think some of the alt images need to be improved. For example the alt text for Image:Protein.jpg says :

Green near the corner of Dean Street, Soho, circa 1983.

It should rather describe the image and say something like

Green walking through a crowd on Oxford Street holding his sign

All of the alt texts for the images are the captions from the image. Warrior4321 17:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those are the caption/cutlines. There is no alt text, but if someone wants to add it, that's fine by me. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 22:28, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added alt text. It took me six minutes, including the time it took to remove duplication between a caption and the text in its image. (Plus another three minutes to make this comment. :-) Eubulides (talk) 14:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nice The ALT text looks awesome.  Thanks
Thanks for doing that, E. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 23:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I view the article the line under the "Posthumous recognition" heading cuts through the quote to the left of it, is there anyway to avoid this? Guest9999 (talk) 16:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Was it the pull quote that was causing a problem, and is it better without it? [5] SlimVirgin talk|contribs 19:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've marked out the line I meant in this image, I don't think it's really a big deal but a lot of FAC seems to be about little details so thought it might be worth bringing up. Guest9999 (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing that. It was the pull quote that was the problem, and given that another reviewer has already said she doesn't like them, I've just removed it. It's too short an article for them, what with the images too. Let me know if it still looks odd, though, please. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 22:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Charming and well-written article about a London eccentric. Jayjg (talk) 00:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed your first and second points. [6] The reason I added "accessed" to the ONDB ref was that I was sent a temporary link by the publisher that I could use to access it, but not one that would work for everyone, or for anyone beyond a certain date. I've removed it.
Bookworks is the publisher of the book I cite, and a registered charity, [7] plus it's not really a contentious point, just an opinion of what Green was, in effect, doing. I just need a citation for that quote. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Or do you mean why is Alun Rowlands a reliable source? He's an artist; see information here from the Institute of Contemporary Arts, and it seemed quite interesting that he would focus on Green. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave that out for other reviewers to decide for themselves, but I lean reliable for the information (I was mainly looking to see why the person commenting was important enough to note their opinion...) Ealdgyth - Talk 01:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Questions and nitpicks:
    • In "Early life":
      • Should Wood Green school be Wood Green School?
      • Is there any particular reason why year of birth and death categories are not used? (Seriously, have these been deprecated or something? I haven't been in the loop lately.)
      • [...] and from 1961 as a self-employed gardener. From 1961 to his death?
    • "In writing":
      • Perhaps you could provide a bit more context here. [...] described by Waldemar Januszczak could be described by art critic Waldemar Januszczak; readers will from outside the UK will almost invariably not know why Heath Robinson is famous (and, consequently, why Green's press would be worthy of a Heath Robinson drawing), and you really shouldn't presume they'll follow the link.
      • I've changed font, size, and weight to typeface, size, and weight, as a font is properly the combination of typeface, point size, and weight.
      • You'd do well to move File:Protein.jpg (WP:ACCESS again), especially since having the image "look" out of the text is not an issue here.
    • In "Posthumous recognition":
      • Over a decade later, he is still remembered by writers and bloggers, fondly for the most part, though not invariably; shouldn't this be [...] not invariably so?
    • The punctuation-free footnotes are a bit jarring. Is this an established style I'm embarrassingly unfamiliar with?
    • London, The Biography could use an ISBN.
  • Let me just say this is a lovely article. I liked the rather atypical writing style, the fascinating subject, and the fact this man was notable enough to merit a Wikipedia article—and enough high-quality sources to avoid its veering into original research. Awesome work. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 22:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, much appreciated, and thanks for reviewing it. :) Your comments were very helpful, and I think I've fixed the issues, [8] except for the ISBN, which I forgot, but I'll do it now. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 23:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, thank you. Why is there no further mention of (or reference for) his appearances in fiction in the "Posthumous recognition" section? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 23:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't want to simply repeat it, but I can't expand on it, because no source does. And I don't have a copy of Ben Elton's novel, so I don't know how he appears in it. I could take another look around, but I'm not overly keen on buying it to track down that one sentence. :) SlimVirgin talk|contribs 23:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, although I seem to have missed the reference? Apparently the book is out of print as well, so that would be way too much bother :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've made it invisible for now, as the reference was a website that probably doesn't count as an RS, and it didn't say what the novel said about Green. I'll wait until I have a better source that elaborates, or until I've seen it for myself. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. Enough reticence—I'll Support. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on language and text based MoS concerns. I will be performing a source review later in order to verify if there are no problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - the lead is four paragraphs for a 13k article. I would suggest merging the top two and merging the bottom two and perhaps condensing a little (but not necessary). The language is compelling. You might want to say in the article where the quote "I was astonished when..." comes from (the pamphlet, I assume). "and while there, in March 1946," You might want to move that first comma to before "while", as the phrase "while there" operates in the same manner as "in March 1946" and it is better to have one compound phrase like that instead of two possibly conflicting phrases (conflicting for the same position and not for meaning). "and from 1961 until" You'll want to add a comma after "and" in order to make sure that the "and" connects to the second job that is currently disconnected by only one comma preceding it. There is sandwiching of two images in "On the streets", which isn't good. Since the image on the left is similar to the one at the top right, it might be able to go without any major problems. "Saturday evenings he would spend" Could be switched to "He would spend Saturday evenings" to sound more straight forward. "and led to his being arrested twice for public obstruction" - haha, any reason why telling girls they shouldn't be too sexually excited is "public obstruction" or do I not want to know? :) "Rowlands 2007." This doesn't have a page number - is there one? Likewise, you might want to add page numbers after "cited in Carter 2006" for ease. Over all, it is a strong article and I can support once the sandwiching is fixed (it is an MoS violation). Ottava Rima (talk) 02:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I've fixed a few things:
  • "Astonished" quote already has in-text attribution to Sunday Times: "I was astonished when things were said quite openly—what a husband would say to his wife when home on leave", he told The Sunday Times."
  • Lead is now three paras.
  • The "while there" comma: if I move it, it changes the meaning from "he failed the exam in March 1946" to "he failed the exam when he worked for Fine Art Society, which was in March 1946.
  • Oxford Street image removed, so the sandwiching is gone.
  • "Saturday evening" sentence: I don't want two sentences in a row starting with "He."
  • Rowland 2007 is a book blurb, and Carter 2006 an article, so no page numbers.
SlimVirgin talk|contribs 12:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is looking good text wise. I see no textual MoS violations and, as I said before, it is strongly written. I will perform a sourcing check later. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional Support — I agree with Ottava. Perhaps the 2007 photograph of Oxford Street can go, it adds very little and the text sandwiching is a problem. The article is, on the whole, beautifully written. Graham Colm Talk 10:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Oxford Street image is gone. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 12:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for checking, NW. I tried removing the black border but something odd happened to the image when I reuploaded (it narrowed in an odd way). I now have a borderless one that was sent by the person who took it, so I'll upload that. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting article on an interesting character. I was engaged by his story, and I think the article is just the right length..enough detail to attract my interest, but not an overwhelming amount. Kudos for finding so many references on the guy, I imagine that took some doing.

I have a few comments. Some of these are judgment calls; I believe they would improve the article, but if you see it differently I would defer to your opinion. Others are more significant. I'll check back and see what you think of each:

  • Is "sandwich man" a common phrase? I'd never heard it…I'll take your word for it if it is :)
  • Is the fact that his obituary was published worthy of noting in the article text? …in the lead section? Seems just about everyone gets an obit published. It seems to detract from the significance of his placards etc. going to a museum. If there's something significant about the obit, it should be drawn out wherever it's mentioned.
  • It was published by The Daily Telegraph, a high-quality, conservative, mainstream newspaper, the daily reading of the country's upper classes. That they published it is interesting, and provides a little bathos. I'm not keen on drawing it out for fear of overegging it. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 16:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see Peregrine also commented on this. The green overalls thing is odd in a couple ways -- for one thing, it's hard to understand how overalls would protect him from spit found on his hat (?) For another, the way it's phrased (both in the lead and in the body), it sounds as though the color is part of what protected him. It seems there are two separate points here, maybe worthy of separate sentences: one is that he wore the overalls for protection, the other is that the green overalls became a distinctive element of his identity.
  • The only vehicles allowed onto Oxford Street are buses and tourist coaches, mostly doubledecker. So if someone is spitting on you, it's likely to be from the upper deck, and is therefore likely to land on your head or hat. That's my understanding of that point. The overalls were to make sure it didn't affect him elsewhere. I'll take a look at the green issue. :) SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is placardeer a word? I find definitions for placarder, but not for placardeEr. (I rather like the word, but WP isn't the place to be coining new ones ;)
  • It's the word used by The Guardian journalist I'm citing. [9] I've changed it to sandwich man. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found this sentence difficult to parse (technically correct, but I stumbled and had to reread a couple times). The trouble's with the last two phrases and the comma: "He later worked for Selfridges, the civil service, as a storeman for Ealing Borough Council, and from 1961 until he became a sandwich man, as a self-employed gardener."
I've fixed this. [10] SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would suggest removing the borders on the images in the galleries. I don't believe they serve any purpose, and they introduce a bit of graphic inconsistency in the article overall.

Good job on the article! -Pete (talk) 03:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. :) I'll fix the borders. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good job on all. Please see my "Telegraph" suggestion above; otherwise, all looking good. I'd be happy to do the borders, if you'd like the assistance. -Pete (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The person who took the images has sent me non-border versions. I've just not had time to re-upload them. I've been having some trouble uploading images, and I don't know why. When I upload the first version, it's fine. But if I need to change something -- a border, or more cropping, whatever -- and I reupload another version, the image ends up squashed. I can't work out why. It doesn't always happen -- only started a few months ago -- but often enough for re-uploading to have become a bit of a nuisance. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 16:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If this is the issue I think it is, it's only a very temporary thing that happens on your own computer immediately after upload. I believe purging the page (e.g. by adding the &purge argument in the URL, or using one of the options in user preferences) gets rid of the issue. It's possible you're speaking of something different, but that issue is one I've run into a number of times. -Pete (talk) 16:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. So you mean it looks to me as though the image on WP is squashed, but in fact it's only on my computer that it looks that way? Heh. I've spent ages struggling with it sometimes. :) SlimVirgin talk|contribs 16:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image borders removed. [11] SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I think the two issues un-struck above are worth a little more consideration, but by no means should they prevent FA. -Pete (talk) 18:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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