Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 August 8

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August 8

politically ethically legally ok to do

Is it ethical or legal to be a Acting Town Manager in one town and be a selectman in the another town, also Is it legal or ethical to use a Town vehicle (as acting town manager) to do the other town's business as selectman?

Whether it is legal depends on the laws in force, which tend to vary from place to place, as well as possible agreements between the towns and the people involved that we don't know of. Whether it is ethical further depends also on the culture. What is normal and expected of you in one culture (like if you do not take advantage of certain "perquisites" that come with a position of power you are considered a fool and a loser by friends and foes alike) may be unethical and not condoned in the next.  --Lambiam 02:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Normally, residency requirements make the situation impossible. --Wetman 05:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually the City_manager is usually a professional hired position as opposed to a selectman who is elected and would have a residency requirement in the town he serves. Similar to saying "Can I be a policeman in one town and on the town council where I live?" On the issue of the vehicle, it would depend on how you had access to it. If they gave you a pesonal car to use full time, then it would be ethical to use it for other business. If you were checking out a truck or backhoe from a motor pool, you should only use it for the business of the town that owns the vehicle. Of course a deal could be made between the two towns in which the borrowing town would compensate the lending town for the use of their vehicle. This is not legal advice. Please consult a local lawyer if you are dealing with reality. ---Czmtzc 12:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where the questioner lives, but I bet it is New England, where I live. I don't think that there is generally a legal or ethical problem with being a selectman in one town and town manager in another. The exception would be in cases in which the two towns have a conflict over, say, the route of a right of way, the costs of repairing a bridge linking the two towns, or the use of a landfill in one town by the other. Such problematic cases would probably only exist between towns that share a common border or perhaps a common transit line. If the person acting as town manager lived in a town that doesn't share a border and is not on the same transit line as the town where he/she is town manager, it is hard to imagine such a problem case. Even if the two towns did share a border or a transit line, this would not prevent a person from holding both positions. The town manager would be obligated to carry out the will of the town meeting or town council in the town where he/she is employed and should probably abstain from any votes on the matter in the town where he/she serves as selectman due to conflicts of interest. The town meeting or town council should be aware of the manager's responsibilities in a different town. If the town meeting or town council saw that position as reason for concern, they could advise the town manager that they would be alert for signs of conflict of interest and could decide not to renew his/her contract or even to terminate the contract for violation of its provisions. Similarly, in the town where this person serves as selectman, voters could choose to remove the person from the town meeting or board of selectmen at the next election. As for the town car, as Czmtzc says, it depends on the terms of use for the car. Usually, this would be specified in the town manager's contract. If the manager receives a town car for his/her personal use as part of the job, then he/she is free to use it when off the job to perform his/her duties as selectman in another town. However, if the manager is expected to use the town car only for town business, then it would be violation of his/her contract to use the car for the business of another town. Marco polo 13:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Mother tongue study

Can anyone point me to a study or article detailing the effects on children who have parents (or maybe just one) with a different mother tongue if said study/article exists? For example, immigrants to a different country with their children speaking the native language as their first language. Thank you. --The Dark Side 02:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There are many studies that deal with different aspects of this issue. Google "immigrant+children+language" or children+"second language" and be prepared for information overload. 152.16.59.190 05:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Was Theodor Herzl's wife Jewish?

I have heard that the wife of Theodor Herzl may not have been Jewish? Does any user know of any material on this aubject? Thank you.

Did you read Theodor Herzl? Article says that she was the "daughter of a wealthy Jewish businessman in Vienna" and implies that their children were Jewish. I think it would be a reasonable conclusion to arrive at that she was Jewish, there is nothing to indicate that she was not. What Xn4 said. Lanfear's Bane

“ Theodor Herzl, the founder of the Zionist movement, was married to Julie Naschauer, who was apparently the patrilineal grandaughter of an intermarriage. Though raised as a Jew, she was probably not Jewish according to the matrilineal descent rule, making her three children by Herzl patrilineal great-grandchildren of intermarriage, and non-Jews in the eyes of the Israeli state that he helped found. ”

The passage quoted above is from half-jewish.net - see here. Xn4 10:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not certain that's an RS. They have considerable interest in pushing POV - not that I'm saying they're necessarily wrong in this instance. --Dweller 09:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd go further, Dweller, it clearly isn't an RS, see the reservations apparently and probably. But it is material on this subject. Xn4 17:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. --Dweller 18:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Winston Churchill

In the Winston Churchill#Speech impediment article it says :Ethan described himself as having a "speech impediment," which he consistently worked to overcome; after many years, he finally stated, "My impediment is no hindrance". Who is Ethan? Should this say "Winston" or "Churchill"? It just doesn't make sence to me. I want to change this but also want to make sure that the article is not trying (badly) to refer to some historian, or contemporary observer. --Czmtzc 12:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This was vandalism; see the diff [1]. Well spotted. I've changed it back. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

thanks, --Czmtzc 13:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Winston Churchill the historian

How was/is Churchill viewed as a historian? I notice that he received the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1953 for his historical work, but I am interested to know if he was really considered to be a great historian, or was he given the prize due to his fame? That is, was he merely an adequate historian, but the Nobel committee wanted to honor him for his distinguished career? --Czmtzc 13:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Churchill was a fine, even a poetic, writer of prose, with the true poet's love of the plain word. As a writer of history, he had the historian's love of original sources: for instance, for his work on the First World War, he took away vast quantities of official documents, most of which weren't strictly his, and during and after the Second World War he made special arrangements to ensure his own access to official documents which no one else had access to. I think it's fair to add that time has shown he wasn't above telling less than the whole truth. He was a politician as well as being an historian, and he cared about the impact of his words. His famous comment "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it" was no doubt intended as a joke at his own expense, but it had some grains of truth in it. This may not help you very much with your question, "was he given the prize due to his fame". Unless information from inside the committee is available (which, for all I know, it may be), we could really only speculate. Xn4 14:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I should also note, as I finished the Winston Churchill article I saw this link Winston_Churchill_as_historian thanks, --Czmtzc 14:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Churchill was arguably the last truly great historian in the old Whig tradition, and as such he is far more entertaining than the likes of T. B. Macaulay and others of his kin. As one would expect, his books are beautifully written, with all of the wit and literary flashes of his great speeches. They are also rich, it has to be said, in the same forms of hyperbole and declamation. I read A History of the English Speaking Peoples when I was in my early teens, and was thrilled, not so much by the history as by the prose and the power of his imagination. So, was Churchill a great historian, as well as a great war leader? No, he was not. The work is too narrowly conceived, too partisan and too prone to dubious and superficial judgements. Above all, it is simply too old-fashioned, with its focus on kings, great men (almost exclusively so) and battles. No historian would now draw on Churchill as a source or an inspiration. Will he last? Well, as long as people read Macualay they will read Churchill, though I personally do not believe he will be as enduring as Edward Gibbon, one of his own literary influences. But he will endure, I think, for less obvious reasons. His writing might be said to have become a historical document, a source, if you will, in its own right, insofar as it reveals a considerable amount about the attitudes and outlook of a man of the late imperial age. Viewed in this way he may tell future historians about a perspective of the twentieth century, in much the same fashion as Thomas Carlyle does about the nineteenth. As for your question about the Nobel award, Czmtzc, all I will say is that there were people of equal or greater worth who never received this accolade. Clio the Muse 00:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[insert]Czmtzc, you might like to also read what Clio wrote about Churchill as a historian in the July 5, 2007 archive. There she attributed the problem more to his lack of academic training, although it seems she is going back on that at least slightly here. The issue of non-academic historians has always interested me, so I would be curious to know whether his theoretical amateur status was in itself much of a problem.

Czmtzc, just in case you didn't see it in one of the articles (Nobel Prize in Literature for instance), according to the Comittee's citation, Churchill received the award "for his mastery of historical and biographical description as well as for brilliant oratory in defending exalted human values." The only other historian Nobel laureate I can think of is Theodor Mommsen, and the only other non-fiction author is Bergson authors are Bergson and Russell. Clio might be thinking of Kafka, Borges, Joyce, Ibsen, Tolstoy or many many others, of course, but the history, ideals, and process surrounding that prize of all literary prizes makes it impossible to achieve a comprehensive or even halfways satisfactory literary list. Just to pick an example, if the list were representative in any meaningful way, I'd have to conclude that Carl Spitteler, the only Swiss laureate, is one of the most significant Swiss writers - a view held by only very few readers and scholars. There are other examples bordering on the esoteric or irrelevant which make controversial choices such as Dario Fo and Elfriede Jelinek look utterly convincing in comparison. Still, the list also includes some of the 20th century's most influential writers, some personal favorites of mine, and some that remain to be discovered. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

plz help me wid dis topic ....

give me an insight to the "urban problems which are related to energy"

Please do not double-post. See responses on the Miscellaneous Reference Desk. Marco polo 16:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Prodigies in philosophy or literature

Hi, I once read (in Britannica I think, and maybe elsewhere), that prodigies in literature are very rare. I suspect the same is true for philosophy. Can anyone tell me of some of the most notable ones, considered as either those who wrote the greatest work at a sufficiently young age (before their late 20s) or those who wrote a sufficiently great work at the youngest age (sufficiently great would require worldwide renown). Thanks. 203.221.126.73 16:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

First that came to mind, Arthur Rimbaud. Looking forward to the list. :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 17:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Another obvious one is Thomas Chatterton, who killed himself at 17. Antandrus (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

And there's List of child prodigies with subsections Literature (includes Chatterton, but not Rimbaud) and Law/philosophy, though they don't all fit your criteria - Bentham, for instance, obviously wrote most of his great work at an older age. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, wait, you said late twenties, that broadens the scope considerably. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure there are plenty of answers, just to give you two examples from German literature: In his early twenties, Goethe had already written significant poetry, the drama Götz von Berlichingen (mit der eisernen Hand) and The Sorrows of Young Werther. Goethe continued to shape his immense opus and lived a long life. We can only guess what works Georg Büchner might have created. Today, Büchner is treated as one of German literature's most important dramatists (in school curricula, on the stage, in literary studies). He died before his 24th birthday. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Christopher Marlowe died at 29, John Keats at 25. Both were very great authors. Vultur 20:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and one more: the odd and unfortunate Comte de Lautréamont, Isidore Ducasse, who died (possibly starved to death?) during the siege of Paris in 1870; he was 24. Antandrus (talk) 23:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling is the leading instance of a prodigy in the history of philosophy, although of course for some of the ancient Greeks, who knows how old they were when they wrote what we have of them? Saul Kripke is another name that springs to mind.John Z 23:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Quite a lot of people published in their twenties, which, strictly speaking, is probably slightly beyond the 'prodigy' stage, certainly for those who are knocking on the doors of the third decade! However, here are a few examples of philosophers and historians, some geniuses and some just very clever people. Ludwig Wittgenstein was in his thirties when the brilliant Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus was published, though the elements behind this had been worked out years before. Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein's mentor at Cambridge, was twenty-four when his first book, German Social Democracy, was published in 1896. A J Ayer was twenty-six when Language, Truth, and Logic, his best work by far, was published. R. G. Collingwood, historian and philosopher, was only twenty-three when his first book, Roman Britain, was published, though his best work comes later, and The Idea of History, the best of all, only appeared posthumously. A. J. P. Taylor, possibly one of the best known English historians of the last century, also started to publish in his twenties. I could go on in this vein, but it might just get a shade too tedious!

On small concluding observation. I would like to thank Sluzzelin for flagging up the incomparable Georg Büchner, whose plays deserves to be far better known in the English-speaking world. Dantons Tod and Woyzeck are dramas of astonishing insight and depth. Clio the Muse 23:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget Daisy Ashford, Anne Frank and Mattie Stepanek. Xn4 23:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, who could possibly forget the wonderful Daisy Ashford, Xn4? But her vision of the adult world, and all its absurdities, is most definitely that of a nine-year-old. Threin lies the charm-and the limitations. Clio the Muse 01:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, Clio, the beautiful Winona Ryder speaks to us for Daisy. Someone asked her in a press conference why she was always playing teenagers, and she replied "Like, I'm nineteen. What am I supposed to do, play a judge?" Xn4 01:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Ha! Why, Winona, we have need of you [2]. Clio the Muse 01:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Alexander Pope "lisped in numbers, for the numbers came" and wrote Windsor Forest at 13. While he distorted some of his early accomplishments, we've recovered the juvenalia, and it's pretty darned good. For that matter, John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester did his wonderful stuff while young. Philip Sidney accomplished much young. Other than Pope, I wouldn't call them prodigies, though. Descartes is the closest to a prodigy in philosophy that I can think of, but Leibniz was remarkable very young, and so was Newton (who did his Principia before 30, apparently, and had done much of the Optics in his teens). Geogre 02:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Wilfred Owen, the war poet, was only 25 when he died in World War One. Isaac Rosenberg was 28. There must be a number of others in that group. Rmhermen 04:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The 16-year-old author of The Eye of Argon tops them all for a certain kind of precocity: how many Rimbauds or Chattertons could write prose as memorable as this:

Small rodents scampered about, occupying themselves in the daily accomplishments of their dismal lives. Dust sprayed over three heaving mounts in blinding clouds, while they bore the burdonsome cargoes of their struggling overseers.

"Prepare to embrace your creators in the stygian haunts of hell, barbarian", gasped the first soldier.

"Only after you have kissed the fleeting stead of death, wretch!" returned Grignr.

Frequently cited as the "worst science fiction story ever written", certainly this deserves honorable mention. From our article on the story, I quote: "David Langford described Theis in SFX as 'a malaprop genius, a McGonagall of prose with an eerie gift for choosing the wrong word and then misapplying it.'" Antandrus (talk) 04:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That's gorgeous. Bulwer-Lytton was a good novelist (not great) gone bad, but that is genuinely overwrought and perhaps should be linked in purple prose (provided we have such an article). Geogre 17:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Françoise Sagan - only 18 when she published Bonjour, Tristesse. --Folantin 08:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Would Christopher Paolini qualify? Corvus cornix 20:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Or for that matter, would John Cornford qualify? And, lest we forget, Banjo Paterson first had his poetry published in his early twenties. --Roisterer 23:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Has not anybody mentioned Raymond Radiguet? To me, he is the very definition of a literary prodigy. And, of course, Pushkin was head and shoulders above his contemporaries from his mid-teens. --Ghirla^-трёп- 15:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for those answers. Re my definition of prodigy: I probably should have used the adjective "precocious", but "prodigy" was convenient. If the word prodigy can't be stretched to include precocious adults, it isn't pulling its weight (apologies for mixed metaphor). I made the right choice by allowing them more time (into their mid-20s), but requiring fame rather than just approval, since it is more interesting for conversational snippets. Keats, Marlowe and Pope were exactly along the right lines, and definitely Pushkin. The others were good too. Wittgenstein certainly qualifies, but I would put Bertrand Russell outside of the circle, because his philosophy came later, in his 30s, if I've understood the article correctly. Personally, I would agree with Paolini, though I have no intentions to read Eragon in full. I was impressed by the clever descriptive passages in the opening, and the subtle skill in character portrayal, even though the "character" in question was merely a stock type of baddie (the Shade). Incredible for a teenager. Overall, I think the answers bear out the original theme. In most other areas, especially music, chess and mathematics, I imagine people would have little trouble producing a longer, more stellar list. If people are still interested in this topic, they could enrich it by giving their best examples of late bloomers. The article doesn't give many interesting examples, and neglects philosophy. My pick would be Kant, if only because he took so long to begin the creative process which led to his enduring fame. 203.221.126.251 17:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The philosopher Saul Kripke published an article in the Journal of Symbolic Logic at the age of 16. The Wikipedia entry for Kripke says:

He wrote his first essay at the age of sixteen on the semantics of modal logics. Reportedly, he was invited to come work at Princeton University based on this essay. He replied: 'I'm honoured by your proposal, but my mom says I have to finish high-school first.'

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.252.141 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC). and moved from the thread's top to its bottom, so everyone can see it, by 77.56.108.140 20:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

looking for Artist

I am looking for an artist, John Raplh Schnurrenberger; his art, and hystory

Have you tried google? -- Kainaw^(what?) 17:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

His middle name is clearly Ralph. He has a page (here) at artprice.com. At the site hp.bccna.bc.ca is this - "The Kamloops Cowboy Festival celebrates its 10th Anniversary in March 2006. To mark this achievement, the Kamloops Art Gallery hosts A Decade of Cowboy Art in The Cube, a retrospective of the art and artists who have contributed to the Kamloops Cowboy Festival’s posters over the years. These include well-known names in the Kamloops area, such as... John Ralph Schnurrenberger." Xn4 16:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Pushkin the African

I see from your page on Alexander Pushkin that the great poet had some African ancestry. Can anyone tell me any more? Kelvin Side

There is a lengthy article about his great-grandfather Abram Petrovich Gannibal. Adam Bishop 18:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking for Wikipedia animation showing evolution of German linguistic area

Hello, I know that there is this neat animation( and probably from Wikipedia) showing the expansion/evolution of the German linguistic area in Europa since the Middle Ages (I think the German areas were green). I can't find it anymore? Does anyone know where it's from? Thanks,Evilbu 18:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a static (with exciting arrows!) image at Germanic language#History which sounds like what you describe, sans animation. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That image shows the possible movement of speakers of early Germanic dialects in ancient times. An animation or map of German-speaking (as opposed to Germanic) areas since the Middle Ages would look rather different. I have looked through the Wikimedia Commons, however, and can find no such animation or map. Marco polo 20:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That is weird, I found the website where that thing was posted again. This is the link : [3] But that was an animation, now it's just a picture, what's happened?Evilbu 00:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That static map is featured under Category:Animated maps of Europe, looking through its file history (this page, further down) shows several animated maps, (most recent one, very first one (Dec 2006)). Maybe you have to ask Postmann Michael or Rex Germanus, the chief contributors editing the map, about this (or maybe not, since one of them has "no mercy or understanding for people who knowingly try to upload unreferenced maps and images to support their sick ideologies"). ---Sluzzelin talk 00:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The map in question as well as others by Postmann Micheals have been found contradictory to scholary sources such ethnic maps many when presenting extent of German areas in Eastern and Central Europe. You can find it on discussion pages when the problem was debated. Also they were unreferenced and assambled from dubious sources and data. --Molobo 02:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Sluzzelin, it's possible that those two animations were the ones I had seen. I see the problem now, they talk about "Sprachgebiet", but they seem to mix up two things : German controlled areas, and areas inhabited by Germanspeaking people : Flanders, the Netherlands were and are Dutchspeaking, but part of the Holy Roman Empire" at one point.Evilbu 13:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Aha, all the better then. I admit that looped map animations make my head spin and feel like it's always looking at the wrong part. I'm old-fashioned and prefer an array of maps displayed next to or on top of each other and allowing me to compare whatever areas and dates whenever I wish. Forgive me for not noticing the questionable scenes in that flick. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Haha, you are right, animations that I can't control make me feel as if I'm not in charge. However, maps with arrows are even more annoying, because it's so unclear (this is why I thought my History Atlas was confusing in High school), you never get a clear picture of how borders were drawn at one very specific point in history :)Evilbu 18:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

20th Century Revolutionary Chinese Woodblock Prints

I have a collection of these and am having the devil of a time trying to find out anything about them. I have done fairly extensive research and can find very little information.

I would like to be able to identify the prints that I've not yet been able to and to get some idea of both their value and market.

Anyone who can help point me in any useful direction would be greatfully accepted.

Thank you very much.

{ { email removed } }

Lorraine Wolfsohn69.242.239.90 19:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Lorraine, this kind of thing was turned out in millions during the days of Mao Zedong and are likely to have very little real value. However, I think it would be best if you showed them to an art dealer, just to be absolutely sure. As to the contents, I would really have to see them myself before I could make any detailed judgement; but happy peasants and smiling soldiers are among the figures most commonly depicted. Clio the Muse 22:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Identify Chanting

There is some chanting in the background of a clip that I have taken from a cartoon and uploaded onto the internet. The chant is going on in the background; try to ignore the manic laughter :). Could someone identify the chanting - is it used in particular rituals, is it just made up and supposed to sound creepy? Do you recognise it from somewhere else? this is the mp3. Thanks for any advice. --212.204.150.105 19:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)