Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 19

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Haiti

This source has been used to justify full professionalism for Haiti and semi professionalism for a number of other leagues. Aside from the fact that mentioning the word "professional" in a fleeting context does not mean that a league is "fully professional", I feel that the quality of english in this source is so poor that it is difficult to infer for certain full professionalism from this brief comment. For example (and the FPL claim comes in the last paragraph at the bottom), the very next sentence seems to suggest Puerto Rico as two separate countries: Puerto and Rico. The sentence following that is written in English so bad that it reads like it has come from an online translation site: The remaining are strictly proletarians which extremely lack the quality of domestic football.

I'm not saying this is not a reliable source to support FPL, nor trying to keep Haiti out for any reason. I just think that the text which supports it is of such poor English that we should achieve consensus here (and arguably look for some Haitian sources to support the claim) before automatically including. Fenix down (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi there, the article is discussing and highlighting several pros and cons as well as challenges faced by the Caribbean Football Union, and is addressing the State of the Union in 2015. It takes Bahamas as an example as being able to obtain scholarships in the United States as one of the pros, and brings up the difficulties faced by the Turks and Caicos Islands as a con for example. It breaks down the structure of the CFU, and how and where it benefits the member associations. It also addresses which areas they seek to improve on. In the Summary of the article, it specifically states that Haiti, Jamaica and Trinidad & Tobago are the only countries with full professional leagues in the region. It then states that Suriname, Aruba and Puerto Rico have Semi-professional leagues. It is a very specific statement coming from the CFU addressing the exact definition which this essay is looking to define. I then questioned the Dominican Republic, but the source to prove its validity is coming from the same source, published later in the year. I hope this helps better understand my inclusion. Best regards, (Subzzee (talk) 18:10, 24 September 2015 (UTC))
But it doesn't mention full professionalism, I am not entirely comfortable that because other leagues are described as semi professional that the description of Haiti being professional means it is fully so when there are so many major errors in English in that paragraph alone. Do you have any other sources you can point us to? Fenix down (talk) 18:47, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
I think it's fairly clear that it must mean fully professional – what else could it possibly mean? This is backed up by the fact that it also lists Trinidad as having a professional league – a league we have proof of being a fully professional league. Number 57 22:43, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
More than anything else I have question the reliability of the source. It appears to be a wordpress generated blog. When you consider that there is a much professional looking website at http://www.cfufootball.org/ that also claims to be the CFU's official website, it starts to look an awful lot like someone is trying to pass themselves off as the CFU, so I have to question how valid any of the information on the side actually is. Sir Sputnik (talk) 04:12, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
@Number 57: but that's my entire point, the english used is so bad, particularly in that section that it is not possible to be confident that one can correctly infer in this instance that "professional" means "fully professional". It is also illogical to assume that because enWiki has assessed Trinidad as fully professional that any source mentioning other leagues in the same breath as Trinidad as professional must also be judging them by our criteria, particularly when they do not support their statement with any evidence.
I think the doubts over the authenticity of the source are most important though (and probably explain the quality of English within). To my mind at the moment, I cannot consider this blog as a reliable source, so unless it is possible to confirm that it is an official site of the CFU or until additional sources can be produced to confirm the level of professionalism in Haitian football, it will have to remain non-FPL. Fenix down (talk) 07:20, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The article is stemming from the exact same source as the one that was used to confirm a full professional league in the Dominican Republic. I have no reason to believe this is a non authorized website. I also know that DR have a full professional league, since it was mentioned in some of the articles I have found discussing the league status in Haiti. But anyhow, I have done more research and have found several articles in French which state that Haiti have launched a 16 club full professional league in 2015. I am at my office now with little time, but I will add those links here when I get home. I have also found several articles discussing the conversion to a full professional league in Jamaica starting in 2015 as well. Which I believe to be the case I can add those as well when I get home. I am also quite sure that the Suriname and Puerto Rico leagues are semi pro as stated in this article, I know for a fact that there are fully professional clubs in Suriname, but I don't believe all clubs in the Hoofdklasse are, but I will get to the bottom of it. So no worries, I will dig up some more news scraps on this, until everyone here is happy moving forward. Cheers, (Subzzee (talk) 11:53, 25 September 2015 (UTC))

Haiti
Suriname
  • 'Professionaliseren om WK voetbal te halen', article discussing the dual citizenship issue for the Suriname national team, and how the league should focus on transitioning from a semi-profesisonal league to a fully professional league before recruiting foreign players. (I will add more articles as I find them)
Puerto Rico
Regarding the Haiti sources, my french is not that great, but they don't seem to be indicating full professionalism, merely that there is a degree of professionalism in the game Haiti. for example, simply because they pay a salary does not mean that players receive enough universally for essentially everyone to be said to solely earn their living from football. Indeed, comments such as this: « Le président Yves Jean-Bart associe son nom à une ligue professionnelle qui n’existe pas, et qui est vouée à l’échec », critique-t-il. Suggest the degree of professionalism in Haiti is tenuous at best. Fenix down (talk) 11:54, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
From La Nouveliste Haiti (Sorry this is taken from the facebook page, I cannot find the article online, but this is a Haitian, newspaper article): En décidant de créer la Super ligue professionnelle avec 16 clubs, la Fédération haïtienne de football établit une nouvelle configuration du football national qui comprendra bien sûr la Super ligue professionnelle et les autres ligues non professionnelles. La Fédération via son secrétaire général annonçait le 16 janvier dernier que le coup d’envoi de la saison de la Super ligue professionnelle de D1 sera donné le 15 février prochain. This is implying that the top tier is in fact professional, and the lower leagues are not. Regards, (Subzzee (talk) 12:34, 28 September 2015 (UTC))
I have found another article reporting on the importance of the professional league in Haiti due to the league which was established in Dominican Republic, I will see if I can find it as well. (Subzzee (talk) 12:34, 28 September 2015 (UTC))

Is anyone going to address the articles I have shared for verification? Let me know if you see anything missing and I will see if I can come up with it, thanks! (Subzzee (talk) 11:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC))

I don't see those articles as supporting full professionalism. The difficulties experienced in terms of league organisation seem to me to point to the exact opposite. I have no doubt there is a desire for a professional league and the word is mentioned, but there is little substance around it or explanation as to what it means. Fenix down (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
you have an article describing the rules and regulations moving forward which includes mention of full salaries paid to players, coaches and staff, a later article with the minister of sports addressing some of the trials faced under the new rules and stipulations, as well as an article describing the new format of the league. Also, what about the articles describing Puerto Rico and Suriname as semiprofessional? Those were removed as well? Cheers, (Subzzee (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC))
That article doesn't quantify the salaries paid. It's perfectly possible for a player to be paid and therefore salaried, but not paid enough for the league to be thought of as fully professional (see the fifth tier and below in England). However, this source does specifically name Haiti as a fully professional league. However, I am not sure how reliable it is, firstly as the language used is very similar to the original source about which doubts were raised and secondly, the end of the article indicates that the ultimate source is a blog. Fenix down (talk) 15:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I can find more sources if necessary, I have already provided quite a few which discuss the current situation in Haiti and describe it as a fully professional league. Are there any sources that claim otherwise? Also you have not yet addressed Suriname and Puerto Rico which I have provided evidence for as well. I am only asking since you removed those entries as well, without acknowledging gang of the articles posted. Regards, (Subzzee (talk) 17:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC))

I am back from vacation. I see no progress was made regarding Puerto Rico and Suriname. I was also wondering why my references for Haiti are not acceptable. It was said that no quantities as far as salaries were specified in the articles, but I have checked other references which were accepted for other leagues and they don't specify the salary amounts either? I think that Haiti should be recognized as a fully professional league despite their struggles they have made it mandatory for all participating clubs to pay full salaries to all players, coaches and staff starting this season. Also I have provided links proving that both Puerto Rico and Suriname are semi professional, which have been ignored, despite having been removed from the list. Please address these issues, thnak you in advance. (Subzzee (talk) 14:49, 4 November 2015 (UTC))

But the sources state simply that the players are paid, the notion of a "full salary" is not mentioned, plus the article that mentions salaries also suggests that issues within the league cast significant doubt on the overall professional status as the quote I highlighted above suggests. Additionally, the number of people that article reports as turning up to the matches calls into serious question how clubs are financing this supposedly FPL. I don't have any problem with you adding back the Puerto Rico and Suriname links though. Fenix down (talk) 16:11, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Comment: Poor English does not equate to the creditability of a source, or the fact that its webpage "looks" like a blog. It does however mention that it is the official page for the Caribbean Football Union. Just because the page lacks the proofreading and the funds wasn't available to acquire a sexy webpage layout, should not discredit the fact that it represents their organization. Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
For those who are so grammar sensitive, see: Caribbean & Co.: Would a Caribbean Professional Football League work? (P.S. Puerto, and Rico are not separate countries on this one). Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
It does when doubts have been cast on whether it is official. Given that this is the official website of the Caribbean Football Union, it seems strange that they would host an official blog at a totally different website (and I note do not link to it in the Media dropdown menu on their website). It also feels strange that a multi-national athletic body would employ someone to manage official communication channels whose grasp of English spelling and grammar were so poor. To me this smacks of an unofficial blog that someone hosts on a domain name specifically chosen to try to lend it false credibility. As such, I do not consider it a reliable source.
For this I do not consider a single throwaway statement to be sufficient, particularly when this is a website who's main aim is to promote the sale of holiday accomodation in the caribbean. Like I said in previous comments, I don't doubt that there is the desire for a fully professional league and it may exist in theory, but the fact is the articles you presented above, the way I read them at least, appear to indicate that there are very real problems in getting that going. As such, I don't think it can be added to the list. Fenix down (talk) 15:25, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Belarusian First League

I very much doubt that the Belarusian First League is fully professional. The cited source is an eight year old document that doesn't support this claim. Most of the teams in this league don't even have a website. — 37 (talk) 03:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Georgian Umaglesi Liga

Has any definitive analysis occured as to whether the Umaglesi Liga is a fully professional league? A prior discussion appears to be inconclusive. The issue has arisen related to an AfD for Bachana Arabuli. The league is not listed at all on the list of known fully professional leagues either way. FIFA lists the Umaglesi Liga as the National League of Georgia. See http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=geo/index.html. The top team is accepted to UEFA Champions League Preliminary. The second and third teams are accepted to UEFA Europa League play-off. The fourth team is accepted to the UEFA Europa League depending on domestic cup. See http://www.fifa.com/world-match-centre/nationalleagues/nationalleague=georgia-umaglesi-liga-2000000021/standings/index.html. I don't know if any of that plays into consideration.--Rpclod (talk) 02:54, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

@Rpclod: It doesnt. UEFA includes clubs from all its members regardless of their leagues being professional or not. Even San Marino champion plays in the first pre-eliminatory stages of the Champions League. Then, FIFA listing the league as Georgian national league is just a normal mention of basic information same as any other country has. Each country has a top national league and FIFA mentions the name of that league at that spot. However, again, just as in the UEFA case, it is totally unrelated to the fact if the league is professional, or not. In both cases, to make it really simple, the thing is like searching for +1.000.000 inhabitans capitals in a list of UN member states that just mentions the name of the capital of each state. It mentions it for all, but without saying their population or having any relation to it. So does the UEFA and FIFAin these cases you brought}} . UEFA includes in its competitions the best clubs from all members, and FIFA mentions there the highest league of all members, but in both cases the subject by itself is unrelated with leagues being profesional, or not. FkpCascais (talk) 05:13, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
What you need is to find out if the Umaglesi Liga has in its regulations a chapter saying that all players from all clubs of the league need to have a valid professional contract to be able to be registered by the club and enter into the squad list (be used in a game in other words). The contract between the club and the player is similar to the normal working contract and includes the obligation of the club paying a monthly-salary to the player which cannot be below the country's minimal wage. Another option is for you to search for articles saying all players in Umaglesi Liga have to have a contract or salary. Many leagues have this regulation, however others allow clubs to register and use players that are not paid, have no contract, and even have other jobs. There are legues that have a mix of both, if that is the case they are not fully-profesional. FkpCascais (talk) 05:28, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Try to find someone who speks and reads Georgian and he should go here or somewhere around there and search for a chapter dealing with the club-player relation and player league registration, and see what it says. FkpCascais (talk) 05:32, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Serbian First League (second tier)

This article published yesterday at reputable novosti.rs speaks about the changes in the law regarding sports and mentions the changes specfically regarding football. In the third paragraph it says that the rule regarding the Serbian First League that previously said that in the clubs could play professionals and amateurs is changed taking effect immediatelly that day to became same as the SuperLiga one that says that every player must be a professional and have a contract with at least a minimum wage of 25.000 Dinars, which is the national minimal wage. So seems that since yesterday, Serbian First League also became professional. FkpCascais (talk) 12:35, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't have any issue with that source as sufficient to indicate full professionalism. I would wait a little while as a courtesy, but I see no reason why it should not be added to the list. Thanks for bringing this up. Fenix down (talk) 12:46, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Looks good to me too. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:27, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
More then really rush to add it to the list, I actually brought this article because it reports changes dealing exactly with professionalism, before it falls into the website archives and then becomes hard to find. The important thing is that we have now an article sourcing precisely the details that are important for us here regarding full-profeionalism of that specific league, which are that confirms all players must be professionals, must have a contract and must have at least the minimum wage. Thank you both for the atention, best regards, FkpCascais (talk) 20:32, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
When would we consider the players in the league notable? Just last week, playing in the league meant you were not notable still but now it does? When do these rules start? Next season? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:45, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Now that all these players suddenly have become notable, we should wait no longer and create Wikipedia-articles about these fine men, detailing their interesting lives and their contributions to society. I'll start with the biography of Ikkanii Voetbalii, who made his debut for FK Dinamo Vranje just last week (he played for Spartak Pottenstampers before).— 37 (talk) 20:58, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, if you look at the 16 teams forming the league, you can see that around half of players already have an article, meaning they are already notable either because they played in the SuperLiga or in some pro league abroad. About the others, I doubt there will be any massive creation of articles because of it. Regarding the point you want to make, I guess you can equally make it with newcomers of Achilles '29, FC Oss, or the interestng lives and society contributions of fine men from Jong PSV. Wait! They are not even men yet, they are still highschool youngsters. I personally dont intend to create articles of players just because they played in that second league, I just brought it to the attention here because this is what we do. FkpCascais (talk) 03:52, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
The sad thing is that the high school brats playing for Jong PSV really do all have Wikipedia-articles.— 37 (talk) 04:23, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
They do. But to be honest they do make at least some sense because most are perspective youth level internationals of their countries and many will became PSV main team players. The ones from these other minor clubs, from wherever they are, dont make sense really to have an article if the notability criterium they have is just that one of making an appearance/s at second league. I remember some discussions took place some time ago where editors mentioned ideas on how to deal with this, I remember some proposals of the sort of "at least X-appearances" were mentioned, but then questions arise on how we will define X without being a random number, etc. Then some footy admins started deleting articles of these second league players, but without officially changing the notabilty criterium the actions of deleting may be controversial. Do you perhaps have some idea which could help with this? FkpCascais (talk) 05:00, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
It wouldn’t be a good idea to determine the notability of football players using arbitrarily defined criteria like a specific number of appearances or the amount of time spent on a field. Notability is not something that can be calculated using a magic formula, nor is it something that depends on the strength of a club or the level of a league in which a player plays. Determining how notable a sportsperson is, should always and only be done by looking at the amount and the quality of the sources that can be found about the person in question. If a simple Google search on a football player yields multiple articles, interviews and opinion pieces, one can safely say that player is notable (and I do mean a lot of good sources, not just twenty or thirty). If that Google search only brings up non-specific texts (the ones that mention a players name, but don’t tell you much more), profiles on football sites and fan-related material, one can be sure the player doesn’t belong in an encyclopedia. Applying this method, there will still be discussions on AfD, but they will be focused much more on content, and not simply on arguments like "player X is notable because he played Y matches in league Z". And yes, I do think that a large amount of football players should have their Wikipedia-articles deleted. We are trying to build an encyclopedia, not a database. That’s just my two cents.— 37 (talk) 07:30, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
That's not strictly true, per Wikipedia's Five pillars, the encyclopedia also functions as a gazetteer, so it is to some extents a database. Furthermore, WP:NSPORTS, of which NFOOTY and by association WP:FPL is part of is not a guarantee of notability, it is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) is likely (my bolding) to meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia. Consensus, through huge numbers of AfDs, is that players meeting either the criterion of having played senior international football or having played in a fully professional league have played at a high enough level to essentially be ingherently notable within their field. This is then caveated through consensus, in AfDs such as these: Oscar Otazu, Vyacheslav Seletskiy, Aleksandr Salimov, Andrei Semenchuk, Artyom Dubovsky, Cosmos Munegabe, Marios Antoniades, Scott Sinclair, Fredrik Hesselberg-Meyer, Matheus Eccard, Roland Szabó (2nd nomination), Metodija Stepanovski, Linas Klimavičius, Takumi Ogawa, Nicky Fish and Andrei Nițu, that players who initially fulfill a subject specific guideline but who proceed to have careers which are essentially outside the level required by NFOOTY as a whole and do not fulfill GNG through other means are non-notable. It's not perfect but it does seem to work in the main. Fenix down (talk) 11:10, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation and the list of AfD-discussions with positive outcome. It’s good to read that sometimes articles really do get deleted after dicussion at AfD, although it doesn’t seem to happen a lot (and apperently only when there are no good sources about the player in question , duh). I noticed that Marios Antoniades and Linas Klimavičius have articles again, probably because they have played for their national teams now. I would argue that even now they are hardly notable, but I understand that’s not what consensus dictates.— 37 (talk) 00:49, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
No problem, if you see articles for players who only just passed NFOOTY and then went on to play in minor leagues or leave the game altogether in the rest of their career then please nominate them for deletion where you don't think they can meet GNG. For international players though, I have always looked on that benchmark as being somewhat similar to WP:NACADEMIC in the sense that a full international cap is about as high a level as a player can reach and as such are among a very select crowd given the numbers that play the game globally and therefore can be looked upon as essentially inherently notable. Fenix down (talk) 08:33, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Superettan

It would seem this link means we should add Superettan to the Swedish entry?

SeanMack (talk) 03:28, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Nope, EPFL has long been considered an unreliable source for professionalism. GiantSnowman 08:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Indonesia Soccer Championship A

Is the 2016 Indonesia Soccer Championship A a professional competition? The Indonesia Super League was considered notable so I was interested if its successor would be considered noteworthy as well. Inter&anthro (talk) 19:35, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

I am not quite sure about this. The competition itself is just a temporary replacement tournament for the abandoned Indonesia Super League and I have not found any sources that mention it is a professional league. MbahGondrong (talk) 18:56, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
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