Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association

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Business situation of teams[edit]

Hello, I'm doing research, asked the same question in Formula 1 project, and how it said, ask the question here as well.

I would like to know about the business situation of the teams, for example, Charlotte Hornets and New Orleans Pelicans are, in business terms, the same company? Or just inherited the space from each other in the NBA? The Corporate personhood is the same? I do not know what the U.S. equivalent of the pt:CNPJ (ID number for companies), if anyone knows, could you tell, but I wonder if there is somewhere where query this data on the business situation of the times, some journalistic source eg qu make this coverage. As I said in another project, my intention is not to merge or break up articles here on en-Wikipedia, but only get subsidies to write fuller articles on Wikipedia in my language (Portuguese). Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 15:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The short answer is that they are two distinct franchises under different ownerships, but the teams are intertwined having both played under the name Hornets and in the city of Charlotte at different times. In the interest of improvement, perhaps you can point out anything in their respective articles that caused confusion to give the impression that they were the same company.—Bagumba (talk) 19:35, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Ok, thanks, but what about the rest? Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 05:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I wanna know about this too. Do franchises have legal personality? –HTD 12:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that the term franchise isn't actually used properly when it comes to sports. A franchise isn't actually an entity, its just the right to have a team in the league. The actual legal entity is the corporation/person that has the franchise. And corporations of course have corporate personhood. However, colloquially sports fans/writers talk about franchises like they are an entity or a thing. The Charlotte Hornets is a bit of a complicated situation. The franchise remained the same because one corporation sold the franchise rights to another corporation. So to answer the original question, they are the same franchise but different companies. -DJSasso (talk) 16:33, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
The articles have to be more clear on this. Is a change of ownership a change of "the entity as a team/franchise"? For example, I've read the Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers change. Did the "Central NY basketball club" (the corporation) folded when it sold its rights ("the franchise") to "the Philadelphia basketball club"? What if the change of ownership didn't involve changing of cities?
Also, would the actual companies owning the franchises would be notable? –HTD 16:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Well I assume it probably depends on the structure of that company. For example the company that owns the Toronto Raptors also owns the Toronto Maple Leafs, and the Toronto FC. If they sold just the Raptors then the company would go on existing, but if they just owned the Raptors it would depends on if they sold the whole corporation or not. In most cases these details are probably too detailed to matter for an article here. As for would the companies be notable themselves, it probably again depends on the situation, I am guessing in most cities they could get alot of local coverage about the companies. -DJSasso (talk) 18:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
DJSasso there is a confusion that was also made in the Project F-1. There is a difference between a company to have multiple teams (each team - Toronto FC, ​​Toronto Raptors and Toronto Maple Leafs - being a department / brand of that company) and a business group (holding) to have three separate companies, each one with a company branch. How does it work in this case? Where can I get references on this? Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 23:52, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Nik Stauskas[edit]

Splitting the discussion from the section above:

Okay, thanks for the input. By the way, while we're here, what about the use of Eurobasket.com for Nik Stauskas' citizenship. This Eurobasket article mentioned that Stauskas has dual Canadian and Lithuanian citizenships, but the information is contradicted by this article from TalkBasket.net. However, I'm not sure that talkbasket.net can be considered a reliable source either. In addition, on the comments section of that Eurobasket article, there is a comment claiming that he doesn't have Lithuanian citizenship, from a user named Peter Stauskas, which would happen to be the actual name of Nik's brother. I know that there is no way to verify whether it is an actual comment from his brother, but since there are no other reliable source that mentions Stauskas' citizenship situation other than this two website, I really think we should consider rewriting Stauskas' personal life section and avoid the mention of his dual citizenship until we can find a better source. Any thoughts? — MT (talk) 04:45, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Can you clarify that the first phrase in the sentence "He has dual Canadian and Lithuanian citizenship, but played for Canada in international youth competitions." is the only content at issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:17, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
N.B. this is sourced by the following content in a WP:IC: " He has a dual citizenship: Canadian and Lithuanian. Despite Stauskas' Lithuanian passport, he currently plays for the Canadian U19 national team and is not eligible to play for the Lithuanian team."-Eurobasket--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:19, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, my only concern is about the "dual Canadian and Lithuanian citizenship" in his Personal life section and also the mention of Canadian-Lithuanian in the lead and in the infobox. I notice that it was cited with Eurobasket.com source, but I believe that Eurobasket.com could not be considered as reliable source. They are not a news organization and their own description on "About us" section looks like a user-generated website or a self-published source, both doesn't qualify as reliable source. I tried to find a reliable source to replace the Eurobasket.com citations, but so far I'm unsuccessful in finding one. — MT (talk) 14:34, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Eurobasket can be useful for many things, but it's also pretty amateurish in a lot of ways. I wouldn't use it as a source for any citizenship claims. I don't know much about Talkbasket, but I don't think it's any less reliable than Eurobasket, and since the two sources are making contradictory claims, we shouldn't be saying that Stauskas has dual citizenship. Zagalejo^^^ 17:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
They're pretty good on providing standings and game results, but for any other matters, don't use them. Even for game summaries. –HTD 21:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
It appears you have the support to make the desired changes. I have no problem with your intentions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:48, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks to Zagalejo for making the necessary adjustment. Anyway, as Stauskas' newfound popularity as lottery pick, I think we could've have a better source about his Lithuanian citizenship status in the near future. — MT (talk) 14:45, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Lithuanian nationality law has an interesting information that dual citizenship is rare. — MT (talk) 07:00, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Summer League season[edit]

Undrafted players are being signed to Summer League rosters. We have always taken the stance that we don't convert the infoboxes (with "NBA" and the team) and that we don't add the team to the club history. I just reverted edits for two Lakers' summer league players DeAndre Kane and LaQuinton Ross. I assume more of these edits will follow, as will infobox awards for "Summer League MVP" when those are named. As a reminder, we have had extensive discussion about Summer League MVP and these do not go in the infobox highlights section. Rikster2 (talk) 15:24, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Awards were just handed out so expect players like Glen Rice, Jr. (MVP), Doug McDermott (1st team All-Summer League), etc. to be updated a jillion times. Rikster2 (talk) 16:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Notable?[edit]

Just stumbled across 2010–11 NBA player salaries. Seems like overkill to me, especially when there's no actual text discussing the salaries just a list of numbers. There's also an article for the most recent season. Thought I'd run it by here though instead of AfDing straight away. Jenks24 (talk) 10:00, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd say just AfD them. WP:NOTSTATS. — MT (talk) 14:40, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Now at AfD. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2010–11 NBA player salaries. Jenks24 (talk) 06:32, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Should be a group AfD with 2013–14 NBA player salaries. Jweiss11 (talk) 13:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

"Regg" Williams?[edit]

Someone moved the page of the recent NBA player Reggie Williams from VMI to Regg Williams. Sounds as if he is known by that name in the Philippines. Should that stay? He has always been "Reggie" everywhere else. Rikster2 (talk) 12:38, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Should definitely be moved back. According to PapaJeckloy, it is his "More popular name". I disagree. I have never come across anything that states "Regg" when referring to him. Even his PBA profile has "Reggie". DaHuzyBru (talk) 13:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Yeah, even the Filipino sources seem to call him Reggie. [1], [2], [3], etc. I'm barely finding anything to support "Regg Williams". In any case, "Reggie Williams" is clearly his most common name in the US, where he has spent the bulk of his career. Zagalejo^^^ 17:45, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree that it shouldn't be Regg. That move was made by someone who probably heard Reggie referred to Regg once or twice on television. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Moved back to Reggie Williams (basketball, born 1986). Jenks24 (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Category:African-American basketball players[edit]

Underbelly 50 has suddenly decided that every dark-skinned player should have Category:African-American basketball players without any source in support of such claim. It is my recollection that it has been decided that such edits will be reverted until they can be sourced. I am revisiting this discussion to confirm that consensus continues to be to revert such additions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

It's a general guideline at Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality that it needs to be sourced.—Bagumba (talk) 03:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

African-Americans comprised 76.3 percent of all NBA players.source: www.tidesport.org/RGRC/2013/2013_NBA_RGRC.pdf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA nba players dont get asked are you african-american? how can sources be put when everybody knows whos an african american and who is not? the large amount of african american basketball players as stated means that the vast majority of the league is an african-american. reporters dont ask players are you black? are you white? because its not necassary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Underbelly 50 (talkcontribs) 00:35, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, but you should read Wikipedia:Verifiability policy and Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth essay. Here is an excerpt from it: Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.MT (talk) 01:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Underbelly 50 continues to insist the categories should be handled based on his own beliefs rather than WP:RS These were at least some of the initial problematic edits. After I pointed him to this discussion, he continues to insist that he should be able to use categories as he sees fit. I don't want to get involved in a war with this guy. Can someone else get involved here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:42, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

According to what you are saying, all 76 percent of african-american basketball players in the nba should have this category removed from there wikipedia pages because there is no source to prove they are african-american. Lebron James, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade are not african-american because nobody can prove it. That's what you are saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Underbelly 50 (talkcontribs) 01:49, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, without reliable proof of African descent, the categories should be removed. Verifiability is wikipedia's policy. The category can stay if there is a citation about his African ancestry in the article, for example: Hakeem Olajuwon, Ike Diogu, etc. — MT (talk) 14:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Adding categorization without proof could lead to a lot of innacurracies. Your edit on Klay Thompson is inaccurate, his father is Bahamian and his mother is Caucasian American, which means that he is, more accurately, Bahamian-American, not African-American unless you can proof that Mychal Thompson is Afro-Bahamian. — MT (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Someone removed the category african-american basketball players on Glenn Robinson III and Trey Burke's wikipedia pages. According to the people removing this category from there pages there is no proof they are african-american. So they are not african-american. They are white-american. If this is the case this category should be removed. As some of you have said "There is no proof" so although the NBA has 76 percent african-american basketball players, this is false because there is no proof. Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant and every single nba player is not african-american because there is no proof. If this category is not removed, then i will remove it from every page of every nba player. There is only 2 options to leave this category on the players or remove this category completely. And may as well remove every single african-american category on wikipedia because there is no proof. Either leave the catgeory on Robinson and Burkes page or delete the entire category and every single african-american category eg african-american musicians, african-american entertainers and so on. According to what one of you have said only people who where born in Africa or have parents born in africa are considered african-american. no one else beacuse there is no proof. I think TonyTheTiger has opened up a real debate here. What do you think TonyTheTiger ? all categories related to the african-american people such as baskteball players, entertainers, musicians, should be removed completely because there is no proof — Preceding unsigned comment added by Underbelly 50 (talkcontribs) 23:01, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Once again, it's not me who decide that, you may want to bring the debate to Wikipedia talk:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality if you want. Tony and I merely just following wikipedia's policy. Anyway how could you decide someone's ancestry based on their physical appearances? Patrick Ewing is another example, he is, more accurately, Jamaican-American. Have considered that some of the 76% players may have Jamaican ancestry? — MT (talk) 23:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Once again, pleace read Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth and Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality thoroughly. — MT (talk) 23:50, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Restricted free agents?[edit]

Should restricted NBA free agents be listed as members of the team they are still linked to or as current free agents? See Avery Bradley for as an example.--TM 17:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

If they are free agents they are no longer affiliated with a team.—Bagumba (talk) 04:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Bagumba is wise. There is no such thing as "a professional basketball player who is a free agent in the National Basketball Association (NBA)." The player is either (1) a player under contract with a team that is a member of the NBA, or (b) a free agent. When a player is a free agent, he is not a member of the NBA, WNBA, CBA, ABA, FBI, FDIC, NFL or MLB; he is a free agent until he actually has a real contract with a real team in a real league. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
He could be a member of AAA or AARP though. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
On the other hand, Jweiss is a wise ass. See the difference? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:14, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Isaiah Austin in Template:2014 NBA Draft?[edit]

Should we include Isaiah Austin in Template:2014 NBA Draft? Martin tamb just removed it Joeykai had added it and Jrcla2 had helped format it.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:42, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm not against his inclusion in the Template, though I suggest putting him after the second round (because it's an unofficial selection, therefore should not be ranked between first and second round) and adding a footnote that his selection is not official. However, I'm against both his inclusion on the draft board and the mention of ceremonial selection on his infobox (including the mention of ceremonial pick on Career highlights and awards). — MT (talk) 14:40, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Great story, but shouldn't have trivial details as part of any navbox.—Bagumba (talk) 04:29, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Robert Morris (basketball)[edit]

Does anyone have an Ancestry.com account or something that can find the DOB and DOD for Robert Morris (basketball)? Jrcla2 (talk) 13:50, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

LeBron James article is a mess[edit]

LeBron James article got full protected, and is a conflicting mess of whether his going to Cleveland is a done deal or pending. Please help reach consensus at Talk:LeBron_James#Change_to_Cleveland so this can be written consistently—one way or another.—Bagumba (talk) 22:47, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Reporting player signings[edit]

This happens a couple times a year in every sports league (FA period, trade deadline): when and how should a signing/trade be written in Wikipedia? There's Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports/Handling sports transactions, but I'm seeing articles like this version of LeBron James that puts "(Pending Contract)" in the infobox along with the alleged team that signed him. And is an agent saying a deal is done sufficient, such as Jordan Hill [4]? I'd be OK with an agent as a reliable source for a signing, but think "pending contract" in an infobox or lead is misleading and not in the spirit of WP:BLP saying "We must get the article right." Add attributed statements regarding a specific report from a specific news source, but it shouldn't give the impression that a deal is complete, nor give it undue weight in an infobox or lead.—Bagumba (talk) 23:37, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Bagumba, I think the safe bet is to wait until a reliable source (i.e. not some sports gossip blog) reports a contract has actually been signed by both team and player. Wikipedia is not a newspaper or a blog; it's an encyclopedia. We're not supposed to report it first, but we are supposed to record it accurately. I also gently remind everyone of the requirements of WP:BLP; no information should be inserted into the biography of a living person unless it is verified by a reliable source per WP:RS; unverified statements in a BLP are subject to immediate removal. In your scenario, an agent being quoted as saying "it's a done deal, but the contract hasn't been signed" can be translated as "I think they're going to sign, but they haven't yet." That's a reliable source for saying there's no contract, and the player is not yet part of the team. We need to gently remind IPs and newbies of our procedures per WP:V, WP:RS and WP:BLP. That's my two cents worth. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:54, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Pierre Jackson[edit]

A user is insisting on adding the 76ers as his current team, despite not being under contract (and probably won't be signed since he just suffered a serious injury). I'm at my three revert limit so I am now just correcting factual errors and deleting copyrighted images, but thought I'd see if any third parties want to take a look and see if I am being unreasonable. Rikster2 (talk) 20:03, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree on not updating infobox. Previously at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_22#Remind_me_again_what_we_do_with_Summer_League_signings.3F, it was decided not to list summer league teams in the infobox. Note for someone like Pierre Jackson, he is not listed at http://www.nba.com/sixers/roster/ event though he is at http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2014/teams/sixers/#roster. There is not long-term notability in playing in the summer league. At most, I would compromise a brief mention in the body if someone is adamant.—Bagumba (talk) 19:58, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

The infobox should be updated, he has stated using his official Instagram page, that he will be joining the 76ers for the 2014-15 Season. ESPN, who has been noted by multiple users as a reliable source before, includes him. He was at the rookie introduction press conference, along with Jerami Grant, KJ McDaniels, and Jordan McRae. I'm not saying he's on the team because he's on the summer league roster. I'm just saying he's on the team. He has announced it. Troy Daniels announced via Instagram that he was re-signing with the Rockets. So did Greg Smith when he went to the Mavericks. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)

Without having links to the sources you are referencing, it it obvious there is inaccuracy with conflicting sources. I don't see a convincing argument to override the NBA/76ers website in this case, when they would seemingly be a better authority on whether a contract has been completed. Wikipedia editing policy states that "... on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information."—Bagumba (talk) 21:28, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
For what it is worth Dario Šarić, whose NBA rights the Sixers also hold, was at the same press conference referenced with Grant, McDaniels and McRae and it is well documented that he isn't joining the team for at least two years. Rikster2 (talk) 21:31, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/roster/_/name/phi/philadelphia-76ers His instagram account, @pappyjackk What more do you need? The sources are right here. An official report from the NBA isn't needed in this case. Please, understand what I'm saying here. I know Saric isn't going to be on the team, but that's not the case here. Come on! I know for a fact I'm right and I'm not backing down on this. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)

  • I think generally, when a player played in the NBA the prior season, when he signs with a new team we assume he is at the NBA level and on the team. When a player spent the prior season at the D-League level, I would assume they have acquired his rights. I would be surprised if he were not on the 18-man training camp roster if he is healthy, which is about what his claim is at this point. However, whether he makes the 15-man roster when he is healthy is another matter.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:41, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
My guess is the Sixers acquired his rights with an intent to sign him if he had a good Summer League. His injury puts his ultimate signing into serious question. He is out long-term, possibly for the entire season. The 76ers may choose to sign him to keep his rights, but they'd be doing so knowing they are using cap space for a (somewhat) fringe player who they may not see for a year. I don't think this should be anticipated. There is no doubt in my mind he isn't signed right now beyond a summer league deal and I think anyone claiming otherwise needs to produce a reliable source that says he is signed for the upcoming season. Rikster2 (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Fine, you guys keep your stupid Summer League rules. That's not what I'm saying. I gave you two very, very reliable sources and you just threw them out the window. I'm telling you, he's on the team, but no, because even though he was at the press conference and he confirmed it through his Instagram account, you guys are right. He isn't on the team. Can't believe this. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)
I find it strange that the 76ers team website does not have him on his roster if he was in fact on their team. And with all the coverage the NBA gets, no reliable source has written an article on his signing, and original research on Instagram photo captions is the best argument that he is signed.—Bagumba (talk) 08:16, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Look at the pictures yourself. It's there. He's on ESPN's 76ers Roster. I can't believe this. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)
Yep, he's in that picture with Dario Šarić. I found this USA Today article when he ruptured his Achilles. Quote: "The Pelicans traded the 22-year-old back to the Sixers during last month's draft in exchange for Louisville point guard Russ Smith, who was taken with the 47th pick. His contract is not guaranteed." If you get traded and your contract is not guaranteed, it means that you have to make the roster. Jackson has not made the roster. ESPN is wrong a LOT, and is not the primary source of who is and isn't on the team - the 76ers are. Frankly, I can't believe this either. You are totally off the reservation here. Rikster2 (talk) 12:37, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Wow, I didn't know every single little detail had to come from the official 100% accurate source. He has stated, himself, that he will be on the team. And I know the Saric stuff. That's not what I'm talking about!!! The 76ers list Saric on their roster too, see, they're wrong as well. If his contract is not guaranteed, that means he has a contract, with the team! I'm at a loss for words here, I am right. That's all I have to say. miamiheat631 talk 16, July 2014 10:18(UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── As I quoted from WP:EP earlier: "... on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information." Understand that Wikipedia operates on consensus, and might not be the right site for everyone. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • At some point in the future when each NBA team has its own D-League affiliate, being on a summer league roster may mean more in terms of being affiliated with a specific team. Right now being on a summer league roster is like being on an NBA team's temporary 25- or 30-man roster. Eventually, each team is only going to invite 18 players to training camp from which they will choose a 15-man roster (of which only 13 dress on any given day). The 18 players may or may not have been affiliated with that team during the summer league. In the case of Jackson, I think prior to his injury he was sort of unofficially guaranteed a training camp invite. However, he has not officially made an NBA roster.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:37, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Sure, in the future things might change, but I would say that being on a team's Summer league roster is more analogous to being granted a tryout. This is why many players suit up for 2 different teams in the 2 leagues - they are trying to maximize their options. Summer league teams usually have 3-5 players who are guaranteed contracts (young returning players and 1st round draft picks) and 7-9 guys with no commitment in the upcoming season - 2nd round picks and free agents. Jackson is a player for whom the Sixers own his rights, but they have no obligation to sign him and the injury didn't drive that. In no way does being on the Summer league team or holding rights equate to being on the team for the upcoming season. Rikster2 (talk) 21:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
        • I am not connoting any permanence or significance to a summer league affiliation. Yes it is like a tryout. When I said temporary 25- or 30-man roster, I meant it is like baseball's spring training. If he was actually injured during a summer league game for a team, he may have some sort of rights to rehab and trainer services with the team. So I won't say he is unaffiliated. It is not like he was injured in a barroom brawl or a pick-up game. He is not on the team for the purposes of wikipedia, however.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Come on, I'm not associating anything with Summer League, I haven't brought it up. He's on the roster, plain and simple. Not every single detail needs to come from an official 100% accurate source. I'm done here, but I know for a fact I'm right. miamiheat631 talk 16, July 2014 5:17 (UTC)
        • Who was talking to you? I was responding to Tony. For a guy who has said repeatedly you're done, you sure don't seem done. Rikster2 (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
        • "Not every single detail needs to come from an official 100% accurate source." ← Yeah, it does. You should have unloaded the gun before pointing it at your feet. Jrcla2 (talk) 14:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
          • Also shouldn't the username be changed to "clevelandcavaliers631"? ;) Jrcla2 (talk) 14:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
            • Not really, I'm a Heat fan. That's just showing some major ignorance. Not everyone liked the Heat because of LeBron. miamiheat631 talk 20, July 2014 7:26 (UTC)
              • It was a joke, lighten up. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

He was signed!! I told you guys I was right. Oh how it feels so good! miamiheat631 talk 6:09 24, July 2014 (UTC)

Given that he was signed today (reportedly) - you weren't right. The Sixers chose to sign him to keep his rights as I said earlier in this section could happen (but hadn't at that time). Technically, the deal hasn't been announced by the team yet, but I won't revert the edits at this point. Rikster2 (talk) 23:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
@Miamiheat631: Dude, you have been and still are incorrect. "He was signed" - well no. We have had this discussion about the Novak-Garrett trade. It's not a done deal until the team announces it. Still until today, he has not actually been announced by the Sixers. After all this time, the Sixers have stated nothing about Pierre Jackson and is still not listed on their roster. His reported signing is not listed here or here. So no, you are not "right". DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Ok fine, but just search "Pierre Jackson" on Google News. I guess not any single one of those articles matter since they don't come from the official website. Then why do they write them? I don't know. If he gets signed today, every single word in this section becomes irrelevant because I am and always have been right. miamiheat631 talk 8:17 25, July 2014 (UTC)
Even @Rikster2: said he wouldn't revert the edits. miamiheat631 talk 8:17 25, July 2014 (UTC)

Anyone here to right great wrongs is only going to be frustrated when their unverifiable, breaking news is reverted. Seriously, they'd be better off with their own blog or twitter acct where nobody else can edit.—Bagumba (talk) 07:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, more sources on signing: Sixers sign injured Pierre Jackson to partially guaranteed deal Philly.com "Official. Lost for words!" Jackson's twitter. This is one of the slowest I've seen for an official announcement to come out. I think it's usually best to wait for them, but at this point I'd be OK with an exception with these fairly reliable source. I personally won't be adding or reverting anything until an official announcement.—Bagumba (talk) 20:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

This signing is just getting stupid. These sources that claim that the signing is official are just not reliable. With this, "According to Mark Deeks of Shamsports.com, the 76ers have officially signed injured guard Pierre Jackson." What gets me still is the "according to". These articles are still getting their information from independent sources – and bloody twitter and instagram. Who knows, he may not be officially announced until the training camp invites are confirmed i.e. late September. Either way, it's still technically incorrect to add the 76ers to his infobox etc. DaHuzyBru (talk) 11:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

D-League external links[edit]

Resolved: Support from {{basketballstats}} removed.

As always seems to be the case with NBA.com stats links, the links to D-League players' stats have changed. As an editor's fix to Jeremy Lin shows, his link has changed from http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/jeremy_lin to http://stats.nbadleague.com/playerProfile.html?PlayerID=202391, the biggest problem being that the name is now transformed to a numerical ID and not an easy change in {{basketballstats}}. Being that basketball-reference.com now includes D-League stats in their profiles for NBA players e.g. see "Full Record" link next to "D-League" near the top at Lin's b-r.com profile, should we just remove support from the template for NBA.com-provided D-League stats?—Bagumba (talk) 02:30, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

The "dleague" parameter to Template:Basketballstats is now deprecated.—Bagumba (talk) 08:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Hall of Famers link in team templates[edit]

I'm starting a consensus on whether or not Basketball Hall of Famers should be linked into the template such as in this template. Also, if an agreement is made on this, should it not be grouped under the existing "Franchise" category instead of a standalone category? Robert4565 (talk) 17:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this thread. I was confused by your edit to Template:New York Knicks, which started a new format by adding link to a section in an existing article, New York Knicks#Basketball_Hall_of_Famers, not a link to a unique article. I'm not a fan of cluttering navboxes with links to sections in articles that are already in the naxbox.—Bagumba (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Your first example of the Template:Chicago Bulls illustrates the folly of blindly listing all HOFers that have played for a team: Thurmond, Gervin, Parish, and Gilmore were at the twilight of their careers, playing only a few years for the team with minimal impact to the franchise's history. Retired numbers are more meaningful to a franchise's history. Each team's retired numbers is probably notable enough for a standalone list per WP:LISTN, and that list should be linked to the team navbox, and not each individual player.—Bagumba (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreeing to vs. signing a contract[edit]

There's been a few articles this offseason where a reliable source says a player/coach has agreed to a contract, and people go and update a bio's lead, infobox etc. with the new team info. However, the source doesn't say the contract was signed, and the team has not issued a press release. The most recent example is Byron Scott, who has confirmed an agreement with the Lakers. Or Chris Bosh, who most would accept is part of the Miami Heat now—even NBA.com's free agent tracker lists him with Miami—but there has been no press release yet, presumably since Miami will sign him last due to salary cap reasons. While I can see how neither Scott nor Bosh is "official", perhaps either side reneges and the contract isn't done, is it for all intents and purposes a done deal? Even if it's not, few editors will recognize the fine print, and has only led to edit wars. I'd suggest the best compromise is to live with changes once a player/coach acknowledges there is an agreement to sign. Open to other suggestions. I hope to summarize ideas here into Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports/Handling sports transactions, which is linked whenever anyone adds {{current sports transaction}} to an article.—Bagumba (talk) 01:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

  • As an example, Bagumba, I submit the Mike Miller/Cleveland Cavaliers case. The Cavaliers and Miller's agent announced a deal twelve days ago (widely reported by ESPN and other reliable sources), but have never publicly confirmed a signed contract between team and player. As of today, 10:30 p.m. EDT, Miller still does not appear on the Cavaliers' team roster on their official team website. Oversight by management or webmaster? I don't know, but I do note that Erik Murphy, who was acquired by the Cavaliers in a trade five days ago, is shown on the team roster.
In the absence of reliable sources definitively stating that a contract has been signed, perhaps the expedient is to make the Wikipedia article changes at such time as the team shows the new player on their official team website. In Mike Miller's case, however, that still has not happened. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Then there is Bosh, who is listed on Miami's roster on NBA.com with no "FA" qualifier like Ray Allen does. I don't think there's a black or white answer to this. The question is can we agree on a shade of gray?—Bagumba (talk) 03:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
More on Miller: He did say "But I'm so excited to be a part of the Cleveland family and their fans." and is also listed on NBA.com's FA tracker w/ CLE.—Bagumba (talk) 03:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd be fine with adding Miami back into Chris Bosh's infobox etc just to make it easier for when players stick with their original team. But take Wesley Johnson (basketball) for example. I had put the Lakers back into the infobox and lead because he had agreed to re-sign with the Lakers and to make it easier as pass-by views would just edit it anyway. However, just recently a user removed the Lakers from the infobox because "it's not official" – so even with this scenario, some people don't agree to add agreements to the article (which is technically correct). So if we make exceptions for Mike Miller well then we should make exceptions for all players i.e. Cartier Martin agreed to sign with the Pistons on July 1 and is still not official, Kent Bazemore etc. So for articles like Mike Miller and James Jones I say no, but for Chris Bosh or Wesley Johnson I say yes – purely because the latter two are sticking with their 2013–14 team. Miller and Jones are technically not Cavs players yet, simple as that – keep in mind though, it's still only July, so there's plenty of time yeah? DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind that whatever criteria we set, people are always going to revert. I'm just looking for a solution that core editors can agree to, while minimizing (not eliminating) the need to revert drive-byes, but still being verifiable with the least amount of speculation as possible to adhere to WP:BLP.—Bagumba (talk) 05:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Personally I'd be OK with a truly reliable source (major paper or sports site) specifically reporting a signing (as opposed to "reportly will sign" and not including summer league "signings"). I do think it is important that a signing is confirmed in the report, as the rumored signings often don't pan out. Rikster2 (talk) 05:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Would you be OK with something like "agreeing to terms" confirmed by a named rep of the player or team e.g. not "according to sources"? I think most reputable sites I've noticed this year are clear to say they've reached an agreement, and don't actually say they've signed until the team's press release.—Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
So with this "agreeing to terms" proposal, are you saying update everything as per usual (infobox, lead, current roster template etc) but instead do "On July 28, 2014, X agreed to terms with Y" and then when officially announced then change it to "On July 29, 2014, X signed with Y"? Bare in mind, this may be difficult for some to comprehend and could become confusing. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Let's not discuss the text in the body for now, as rarely do drive-by editors add anything there anyways. It's usually just the infobox and team in the lead sentence that gets updated. My proposal, given the limited editors on this WikiProject that are available to enforce WP:V and WP:CRYSTAL, is to let the lead/infobox be updated if some involved party (not anonymous source) is directly quoted as having reached agreement to a contract. None of us has to add it, but we don't need to spend time reverting it constantly. We can put {{current sports transaction}} on the page, and put in the body that it is an "agreement", but all articles have a general disclaimer on them anyways. It might not be ideal, but I think it is realistic in the absence of more patrollers. The alternative is requesting full protection, like what happened with LeBron James earlier, which IMO is the worst outcome.—Bagumba (talk) 23:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with Bagumba 100%. I think it covers our bases while properly documenting the current contract status with the disclaimer template and the qualified text. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree but I still don't like it. Seeing Cleveland Cavaliers on James Jones and Mike Miller just looks off to me. And without bulk in the body, it looks off too. Is this the first time this WikiProject has had this "agreed/official" discussion? In previous years, have we ever given into adding a new team before it was officially announced? I only remember Zagalejo giving in to re-adding a free agent's team before it was announced when the player was staying with their original team. Will this be how we do it not just this year, but following years to come? DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing something here, but what is the motivation for making a distinction between players re-signing vs players leaving for another team? Technically speaking, they need to sign contracts in either case. Why should they be treated differently?—Bagumba (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
No doubt! They shouldn't be treated differently, I was just going with that. So with Mo Williams reported agreeing to sign with the Timberwolves today, should the recent edit to him just be left? Is that what we are going with? DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Looks like his agency announced the decision. I think it's difficult to argue that this is not "official enough", and insist that a press release or press conference needs to take place, especially for non-regular editors. While it's fair to revert if a change is unsourced, which technically this change is, I believe it's a losing battle if we actually know of or find—or if the editor includes—a source where a named person announced their intention to join a team. I'm OK with allowing it to save us some time from endless reverts and freeing us up for more productive edits that will be less likely contested. Again, I don't think I'll be adding many of these announcements, I just won't be spending time reverting it if I know the announcement exists.—Bagumba (talk) 06:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough, Bagumba. I shall do the same. Thanks for your input. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
When I was actively editing these articles, I went through a lot of mental gymnastics to make sense of certain things. If a player was expected to re-sign with his old team - especially if it was someone like Tim Duncan who had been with the same team for years - I figured it was easier to just leave things alone, rather than trying to reword a zillion things throughout the article. I know that's not super consistent, but I had to set some limits for myself; otherwise I'd drive myself crazy. Anyway, you guys can hammer out a system that works for you. I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect solution. Zagalejo^^^ 23:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I have one question about this. If a player agrees to terms with a team (for example Cartier Martin and the Pistons), can something about it be added to the body section? Something along the lines of, "On July 1, 2014, Martin agreed to terms with the Pistons, but has yet to sign an official contract." Something like that, but keep the infobox as saying "Free Agent". Thoughts? miamiheat631 talk 07:15, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

  • MH631, as long as you can add a WP:RS reliable source footnote to the example text, I not only think that's appropriate, but the best course of action. FYI, "Free agent" in the infoboxes, per MOS:CAPS, should be capitalized like Wikipedia headers: only the first word is capitalized unless it's a proper noun. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:22, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Donald Sterling's playoff record[edit]

Could use some input at Talk:Donald_Sterling#Playoff_success. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Category:Charlotte Hornets (1988-2002)[edit]

Question - the current Charlotte Hornets team is keeping the entirety of its team history, from when it was the original Hornets through the Bobcats right? I see where someone created Category:Charlotte Hornets (1988-2002) back in May and I'm pretty sure this category shouldn't exist at all. If not, I'll CfD it and then ping WT:NBA with the discussion, I just want to make sure first. Jrcla2 (talk) 11:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that category should go. Anyone who played for the Charlotte Hornets at any time should use the "Charlotte Hornets players" category based in the call on history ownership made when the Bobcats changed names. Rikster2 (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
CfD here, please weigh in, all. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Given the healthy discussion on the topic above "Charlotte Hornets records and history," I am surprised not to see many NBA project participants in the discussion. The debate so far has been lively and there is a clear difference of opinion on how the Hornets name change should be handled from a category perspective. If you are happy to adhere to whatever consensus comes from that discussion without input that is fine, but please take a few moments and register your opinions - whatever they might be. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 11:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Removing support for NBA.com historical player profiles[edit]

The previous discussion link at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_23#Infobox_basketball_biography_needs_update_to_historical_profiles_link didn't generate any ideas for transforming IDs to NBA.com's new format for retired players. Since the links as currently coded don't work, I've deprecated the previous "nba_historical" parameter to {{Basketballstats}}. If there is enough interest that people want to manually add the new urls to bios, I'd suggest that the new format be added into Basketballstats, instead of adding an EL on a separate line. However, since NBA.com is notorious for mucking around with url and not redirecting them, I'd suggest just living with basketball-reference.com and saving a lot of rework over time.—Bagumba (talk) 08:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Philadelphia 76ers numbers[edit]

There has been a lot of activity around Joel Embiid's number with the Sixers. The official site doesn't list numbers and some editors are adding the number 11 to Embiid's article - and in fact, the Sixers are selling a Joel Embiid #11 jersey (see here) with no disclaimer that the number is not official. The issue has been that fellow rookie K. J. McDaniels wore #11 for the Sixers in Summer League (see picture), so other editors insist that Embiid can't be #11. I recommend that the Embiid article be protected and a number left off until it officially posts on the Sixers' site (which is incredibly slow to update btw) and that the number be removed from McDaniels' article too for the same duration. Not sure what the Sixres' intention is but the franchise itself is sending mixed messages. Rikster2 (talk) 17:53, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I've left a note at Talk:Joel Embiid to come here. Hopefully we can avoid protecting everyone from editing.—Bagumba (talk) 18:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Jewels30: My thing here is that at the NBA Official Rookie Photo Shoot, Embiid was pictured wearing a #11 76ers jersey and McDaniels was pictured wearing a #14 76ers jersey. I know that on the NBA.com website nothing is listed but I think this is evidence enough to change Embiid's number to 11 and McDaniels number to 14. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jewels30 (talkcontribs) 22:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I feel pretty good about Embiid as #11 since the Sixers are selling that jersey to the public. I'd prefer to see something more than the rookie photo shoot for McDaniels, though. Honestly, I hate number controversies and just wanted to stop the warring over it. Rikster2 (talk) 00:40, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
The rookie photo shoots apparently took place today - [5], [6] - so I would say they reflect the most recent state of affairs. I don't know why McDaniels wore 11 in the summer league, but I think it's safe to say Embiid will be wearing that number in the regular season. Zagalejo^^^ 01:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Help with edit[edit]

Does anyone have access to NYC birth certificate records or death records? Check out this edit. I'm not sure whether to AGF it or to revert due to WP:V. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Pacers numbers[edit]

I know something almost exactly like this was discussed above, but a user insists on putting Solomon Hill's number as 44 and Damjan Rudez's as 9. The Pacers roster doesn't confirm this, nor do the player files. He gives the Pacers team store as a source but I don't know if that is reliable enough. A few years back, I changed some numbers on a Hawks roster template but they turned out to be completely wrong. If I'm being unreasonable here, feel free to tell me, but I just think we should wait for the season to start or an official announcement from the team. Thoughts? Miamiheat631 (talk) 22:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

This news article says that Solomon Hill is switching to 44. No idea about Rudez's number though. — MT (talk) 00:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

George Banks[edit]

FYI George Banks (basketball) was recently created. I filled out his club histories to the best I could and added categories, but as of right now it's a one-sentence stub that could use expanding, if anyone feels inclined. Thanks! Jrcla2 (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Fun With Contracts, part II: Training Camp[edit]

As players are invited to training camp, we have now hit the second phase of premature transactions - adding teams to club history, team colors, etc. for these guys. Just a reminder that like Summer League participants, these folks have not made the rosters of these teams. I probably have limits for how much I want to police this, but it is that season again so I thought I would note it. As always, player categories should never be added until the player appears in a game Rikster2 (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

With this time of the year and all these reports coming out about who's attending what training camp, it's going to be tough to keep all rumored players' article under rap i.e. with Casey Prather, I reverted an addition, but the IP was persistent, so with cases like that, I think just let it go. I'll do my best, but if I get reverted, I'm just going to leave it and change it up once officially training camp signings are announced in late September. DaHuzyBru (talk) 17:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Standard for listing british nationalities[edit]

On the page Toronto Raptors all-time roster we have Robert Archibald listed as from Scotland, but Pops Mensah-Bonsu as from the UK (who is from England) and they both played for team Great Britain internationally. What (if any) is the standard for listing these player's nationality?18abruce (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Team GB is in a state of flux. Some home nations joined a united Team GB but one begged off (I forgot who begged off and who joined). –HTD 15:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Well team GB was only formed for the Olympics and may be disbanded after failing to qualify for 2015 eurobasket, the teams at least had Scottish and Enlish players on them. However as far as listing the nationality for NBA players is seems puzzling that Scottish players would be listed as Scottish and English players listed as UK. Because of the small sample size this may not have come up before but I was hopefull that there was a discussed standard.18abruce (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)