Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/SS Edward L. Ryerson/archive1

SS Edward L. Ryerson

SS Edward L. Ryerson (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/SS Edward L. Ryerson/archive1

Nominator(s): GreatLakesShips (talk) 07:41, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

This article is about the Great Lakes freighter SS Edward L. Ryerson. I brought the article to GA status in March 2021. It has since been copy edited by Twofingered Typist, and has undergone a peer review. GreatLakesShips (talk) 07:41, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Edward L. Ryerson launch.jpg, File:Edward L. Ryerson in the Manitowoc River.jpg skeptical about the non-free usage rationale. How is NFCC#8 met? Does "its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."? If so, the rationale does not explain. I would suggest removing both images. (t · c) buidhe 07:54, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Could the picture of the launch be kept? GreatLakesShips (talk) 22:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

You would need to make it clear why "its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." as required by NFCC. (t · c) buidhe 23:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Removing it seems to be the only option. GreatLakesShips (talk) 00:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Are the other images alright? GreatLakesShips (talk) 12:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Comments from North8000

A sentence that is both in the lead and body says: "She is one of only two American-owned straight deck lake freighters..." relying on the internal link to say what "straight deck" means here. But as described at the linked article, "straight deck" has two very different meanings. The intended use in this article is not only merely one of the two (leaving the intended meaning in this article unclear), but the intended meaning is not what the linked article describes as the primary meaning. Could this be clarified? North8000 (talk) 13:29, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I tweaked the straight deck article to help in this area. North8000 (talk) 19:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@North8000: I've added a footnote to clarify the matter. GreatLakesShips (talk) 20:07, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Cool! North8000 (talk) 21:23, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@North8000: I've added "Comments from North8000" to this section. Hope you don't mind. GreatLakesShips (talk) 22:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. North8000 (talk) 22:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

The article mentioned that they spent an immense amount extra to equip it carry passengers in style. The few glimpses I had of sources seemed to make a point of discussing it carrying VIP's as guests. Do think this should be mentioned in the article? North8000 (talk) 21:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't see why not.

@North8000: Which source said that? I think I missed that detail. GreatLakesShips (talk) 14:08, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I didn't make a note of it but I see if I can find it again. It was one of the sources in the article, and the link went to a site (google books?) which had a paragraph or two from about 10 different pages. That's why I called it "glimpses". North8000 (talk) 17:42, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

It was the google books glimpse of "Twilight of the Great Lakes Steamer" page 77. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:57, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@North8000: Thank you. Done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 21:07, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Support I was going slow figuring that others would be taking more time interviewing details. But then I saw the recent notice. North8000 (talk) 13:27, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

• Some of the details in the infobox don't appear to be sourced anywhere - eg yard number
• "Since 2009, she has been in long-term layup at the Fraser Shipyard" - text indicates that while she started there she was later moved

Changed to "Since 2009, she has been in long-term layup in Superior, Wisconsin."

• "became well known for her elegant lines" - source?

Changed to "Enthusiasts consider Edward L. Ryerson to be one of the most aesthetically pleasing lake freighters ever built."

• How are you ordering Sources?

Originally alphabetically based on the author/publisher, although they were changed during the peer review.

• What makes Great Lakes Vessel History a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything official that would qualify it as a usable source. It has been removed.

@Nikkimaria: The points have been addressed.

@Nikkimaria: Are the rest of the sources alright? GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 06:05, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Still seeing details in the infobox that don't appear to be cited anywhere, eg the capacity of 27,500 tons. Also not clear on Sources ordering - it appears that items without a named author are mostly alphabetical by title, but not entirely. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:37, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: I've sorted all i could find. As for the sources, they are ordered alphabetically, regardless of whether or not an author is listed. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 16:17, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Still more, eg displacement. Also we've now got several work titles in Sources using |publisher=. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:18, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: I can't see anything else that isn't cited in the infobox or the body of the article. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 21:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

• Hi Nikkimaria, is this one good now? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:47, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

• Still seeing work titles using |publisher=. Otherwise yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:43, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: It's done. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 14:35, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

• She was launched on January 21, 1960, and Frankcliffe Hall was launched before that, on December 7, 1959, so I don't understand the "Queen of the Lakes" title -- if it doesn't count till the ship is launched, then she was never the longest; if it counts from construction, then the Frankcliffe Hall would have taken over the title before December 7. What am I missing?

My mistake. I accidentally wrote 1959 instead of 1962.

• Is Joseph L. Block worth a redlink?

I don't think so.

• Why is it worth mentioning a cargo of mill scale? Is there something unusual about that?

It is for a ship that worked in the iron ore trade.

• Have you looked through the newspapers.com articles that mention the ship? I had a quick look; there are hundreds of mentions. No doubt most are trivial, but I see you don't have any references to newspapers in the article so I thought I'd check.

  I don't have a newspapers account.

  It's free. If you go to WP:LIBRARY and click on "Get free access to research!" near the bottom it'll take you to a page where you can sign up. If you have problems you can ask questions or ask for help at WT:LIBRARY. It's a great resource. Since you don't have an account yet I'll do some searches today and see if I can find anything of interest, and post the results here, but I really recommend you sign up -- for the articles you write I think it would be very useful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:06, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Two months ago I got a notification which said I was eligible for an account at the Wikipedia Library. Is that significant? GreatLakesShips (talk) 17:03, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

They sent that note to everyone who was eligible, so yes, it means you would be given an account if you asked for one. There are requirements (minimum number of edits, etc.) and that notification just meant that you meet the requirements. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:36, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

That's everything I can see; the article is in good shape. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:58, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: All done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 21:07, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Some clippings. I've noted below if they are out of copyright, meaning that you can use the photos, if you want to.

• [1] -- mentions details of the accommodations, and mentions that the hatches admit two loading chutes and improve visibility and access during unloading. This is out of copyright.
• [2] -- more details of accommodations, info about the crew, a mishap on the first trip, and this source says the $8M was for the whole ship, not just the accommodations, which to be honest is a lot more plausible. Out of copyright.
• [3] -- 2016 look back. In copyright. Mentions the Manitowoc County Historical Society which apparently has photos of the ship, which may be available for use.
• [4] -- a similar article, from 2020. In copyright. This one has a picture from the Wisconsin Maritime Museum, which might be worth contacting.
• [5] -- mentions that the launch damaged the city dock, and that there's an elevator on board -- the first on a lake ship. Out of copyright -- the Green Bay Press-Gazette did start renewing copyright, but much later than necessary for the 1960 issues.
• [6] -- gives a couple of engineering details, e.g. about the controls for the boiler, and explains why the vertical-sided holds were important. Out of copyright.

Per this page copyright has to be renewed for publications before 1964, and this page is where you can search for those renewals.

I think that's everything useful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:03, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: All done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 22:59, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips regarding the two new photos, how did you confirm there was no copyright renewal? (t · c) buidhe 00:28, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't know if GreatLakesShips repeated the search, but I searched, using the link above to cocatalog.loc.gov. I searched for renewals 27-28 years after the publication dates using the newspaper titles as the search string. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:32, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, sounds reasonable. Image review is a pass. (t · c) buidhe 00:41, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Support. The additions look good. Buidhe, since you did the image review, there are two new images you may want to look at. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:06, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

ore than three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination attracts further interest over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:13, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I was sitting back figuring that that the first step was a longer process of getting details reviewed. Seeing your note I added my support. North8000 (talk) 14:03, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• "Ispat International N.V." Of which country?

Sorted.

• "She was sold to the Indiana Harbor Steamship Company;" When? Ditto in the main text.

Done.

• "in December of that same year," What year? Ditto in the main text.

Done.

• "Edward L. Ryerson set cargo haulage records twice during the early 1960s." This is unclear. From the text below the record appears to be before the weight of cargo, but this shoudl be clarified. Also record for what? For any ship on the Great Lakes? For a ship of her class?

Not really sure what you mean by this.

• "In August 1989, she loaded a cargo of mill scale in Detroit, Michigan." Why is this worth saying? It seems too trivial for the article.

Removed.

• "On November 13, 1997, she was placed in the dry dock at Bay Shipbuilding Company in Sturgeon Bay for her five-year inspection." Also trivial. You could say she was inspected every five years, but why mention this specific inspection?

Removed.

• "The ship was moved to Sturgeon Bay's east dock on December 7, 2000, and back to Bay Shipbuilding on August 17, 2004.[" Presumably laid up, but you should clarify.

Clarified.

• You say in 'History' "Edward L. Ryerson is the third of the thirteen so-called 730-class of lake freighters built; five were American, of which she is the first." and in 'Career' "Edward L. Ryerson is one of only two American-owned straight deck lake freighters, the other one being the 1958-built freighter John Sherwin." I think it would be better to have these comments together and explain how they are related - or not.

I don't think this would add anything to the article.

• The referencing is confusing. You have two different Boatnerd refs, divided apparently randomly depending on whether you have put Boatnerd in italics. It will also be very difficult for a reader who does not understand sfn to find the correct reference. It would be better to consistently have the first word(s) as the sfn ref e.g. "Great Lakes" rather than Boatnerd. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:22, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I have converted the refs to italics, however, I don't think it is necessary to change its name.

Hi GreatLakesShips, I note that you have been off Wiki for a week, but this is a reminder that when you are back Dudley's comments above are awaiting a response. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: I'll start working on them tomorrow. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 21:53, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dudley Miles: Sorry it took so long, but your comments have now been addressed. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 00:28, 19 April 2022 (UTC)