Wikipedia talk:Consensus

“ Consensus is a partnership between interested parties working positively for a common goal. ” — Jimmy Wales

Consensus redux

If a current consensus (by way of RFC) is sought on a topic and there was a prior consensus (also reached via RFC), of which is there is no notice of on the talk page, from a few years ago should the newer request for a consensus or RFC be closed for not stating it was an RFC to overrule a prior RFC? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DonkeyPunchResin (talk • contribs) 17:05, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

No. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:54, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

"Wikipedia:EDITCONCENSUS" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Wikipedia:EDITCONCENSUS. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 6#Wikipedia:EDITCONCENSUS until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Dudhhr (talk) 05:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

"Consensus" is not a standalone policy

"Consensus" should never be cited as a standalone policy (often used as a substitute for "I don't like it"). It should always be based on other existing guidelines and policies that are cited. If no other policies are cited, then the "there is a consensus" claim should be ignored as just a local tyranny of the majority. OTOH, if that majority is saying "our consensus is based on this and this policy," then the word suddenly means something and discussion can be constructive. Otherwise not.

We already follow this principle in RfCs and AfDs, where a minority of editors can prevail because their arguments are based on policy. Arguments must be more than complaints. They should cite "guidelines and policies". This is from WP:AfD:

AfDs are a place for rational discussion of whether an article is able to meet Wikipedia's article guidelines and policies. Reasonable editors will often disagree, but valid arguments will be given more weight than unsupported statements. When an editor offers arguments or evidence that do not explain how the article meets/violates policy, they may only need a reminder to engage in constructive, on-topic discussion. But a pattern of groundless opinion, proof by assertion, and ignoring content guidelines may become disruptive. (BOLDING added)

One often sees a gang of fringe editors who cannot cite policies (because their fringe ideas -- which they dare not voice as their real motivation -- don't have a leg to stand on), so they cite "consensus" as their justification for deletion of properly sourced content they do not like. In such cases, "consensus" is a weak and pitiful argument. It's like seeing bogus scientific claims without any evidence, or Daddy forcing obedience "because I said so."

We need a sentence or two that encapsulates the principles above. -- Valjean (talk) 01:12, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Is that not what is summarized in WP:CONLIMITED? – The Grid (talk) 01:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I think that is mostly concerned with attempts to change policies. We need something that makes clear that if one invokes "consensus", one must also invoke specific guidelines and/or policies, as it is them, not the "consensus" policy, which has most weight. "Consensus" alone has no weight at all. -- Valjean (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support adding a sentence or two stating that "no consensus" is not, standing alone, a viable argument for or against a change. See also wp:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus". Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 18:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• But it is sometimes proper as a behavioral, rather than content, argument. If said fringe editors are not listening to the content-policy-based arguments and are edit warring, it is appropriate to tell them that they should not be doing that because there is no consensus for their text. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

But in that circumstance you would not be reverting solely for "no consensus" because there are substantive content issues being discussed on the talk page. Certainly a distinction that we should make clear if the community decides to add text here that "no consensus" is not, on its own, a valid argument. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 06:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Crossroads: Would including text taking into account the appropriate use of a "no consensus" objection while a discussion is taking place resolve your concern regarding Valjean's proposal? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 05:08, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not really convinced a change is needed, but I don't feel that strongly, so I recommend proposing a specific wording here and seeing what if any comments on it come in. Crossroads ^-talk- 02:42, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I sympathize but flatly disagree. I think that wp:consensus introduces a bit of hysteresis (higher bar for change, and a little extra weight for the status quo) into such decisions (which is a good thing). It is valid stand-alone within it's limited process scope and IMO that should not be in essence deprecated as proposed. It is our process rule for discussion and decisions. Those discussions and decisions are based on all of those other guidleines, policies and considerations, but the process rule is not dependent on them.

Of course, use of it is at the center of a massive amount of Wikilawyering. Which usually involves maneuvering to see who gets to claim "status quo" status for their preferred version/outcome thus requiring the persons with the opposite view to get a supermajority to get their preferred outcome in. For better and for worse, this is how the big fuzzy Wikipedia system works. North8000 (talk) 12:37, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

North8000, my concern is when fringe editors are ignoring policy-based arguments for keeping long-standing and properly-sourced content and just saying they have a "consensus" to remove it because they are in the majority in the discussion. They have no other policies to justify their move to remove content they don't like. When they do mention a policy, it's often "due weight", which is an equally vague and abused policy that should also be based on other policies. In such a case, "consensus" is not good enough. They must be able to cite other policies to justify removal or change. Their "consensus" must be a consensus that those policies are the justification for their actions. We see lots of attempts to whitewash Trump-critical content based solely on a "consensus" among such editors. Keep in mind we have plenty of editors who still believe The Big Lie and who try to remove what they see as fake news by the dishonest mainstream media, which are precisely the sources we consider RS. Long-time editors are doing this, so they know better than to reveal such thoughts. They just cite "consensus" and delete good content. -- Valjean (talk) 15:06, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

If, after discussion, no consensus emerges then the status quo prevails. If you don't think that is plainly stated then we can add language to make it explicit. The solution Valjean proposes deals with editors skipping over discussion and proceeding straight to "no consensus." I suggest that these are mutually exclusive fixes. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:50, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm with you in spirit 100% but not on the specific structure being discussed. Your hypothetical example was in essence a local consensus to make a bad edit. (I stuck to the "hypothetical case" portion of your post because I expect that the real case is more complex.) Wikipedia tries (via "not a vote" etc.) and often fails to make it more than "two wolves and one sheep discussing and reaching a 2/3 consensus on what to eat for dinner" but, repeating myself it often fails at that. The Wikipedia "Plan B" is to get a broad and widely advertised RFC which I think would help in the hypothetical case. You mentioned "due weight"; IMO that portion of WP:NPOV was flawed and unusable even 15 years ago and now with the changes that have happened in the media has become a recipe for doing the opposite of NPOV. But that's a different topic. North8000 (talk) 17:31, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

• I am not seeing this as an improvement. It looks like a tool to just stonewall changes. PackMecEng (talk) 15:21, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed text re "no consensus" not standalone

At Crossroads' suggestion, I offer a first draft of proposed specific wording.

Lack of consensus, standing alone, only supports removal of a change when the content of the change is the subject of (a) a current substantive discussion or (b) a prior discussion that reached consensus. In such cases removing editors should link to the applicable discussion. In all other cases editors should instead cite policy, sources, or another substantive basis for the removal.

Any suggestions for improvement? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, I am proposing this text for wp:EDITCONSENSUS to discourage substance-free WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT reversions). Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 20:29, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Crossroads, this change doesn't seem needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, I agree with Valjean that it does seem needed. Do you foresee the text making the policy worse? If not, any other reason to not add text that other editors believe is helpful? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

First off, I think adding text that isn't needed to policy is always going to be problematic - if we want policies to actually be read, we want to avoid bloating them unnecessarily. Second, see point below. Third, this addition seems to contradict other parts of the policy, particularly NOCON. So yes, I foresee it making the policy worse. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

To your points: (1) Why do you think this text is not needed? Does it repeat something said elsewhere in the article? Do you think editors reverting solely on the basis of "no consensus" or "talk first" is not a significant enough problem? Something else? (2) See below. (3) wp:NOCON says what happens after the "D" in BRD fails to result in consensus. The proposed text would appear in wp:EDITCONSENSUS, which deals with the "B" and "R" in BRD. Would you please help me see the conflict that you see? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 17:07, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Your stated purpose in putting this forward is to discourage IDONTLIKEIT reverts; I see it as encouraging ILIKEIT edits, and privileging those edits to persist. I certainly don't see requesting discussion when there is disagreement to be a problem; not all potential cases are covered by existing policies or consensuses, but that doesn't make them inherently wrong and meriting change. Regarding point 3, your text is not limited in the way you suggest: it requires there to have been a prior consensus in order to justify a revert, but a prior discussion resulting in no consensus may place the onus elsewhere per NOCON. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I think I see the problem. Would it resolve your concern if I revised the proposed text to make it clear that (a) the goal is that reverts be supported by a substantive reason ("policy, sources, and common sense") and (b) "lacks consensus" is not a substantive reason unless there was a prior consensus or an ongoing discussion? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 23:27, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure how this would be different from your existing proposal, which seems to have the same intent? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:28, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Right same intent (stopping IDONTLIKEIT). I had thought you are okay with that goal but think the proposed text has unintended consequences (encouraging IDOLIKEIT). Are you not okay with my intent? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 21:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how you can effectively achieve the first without doing the second. What you've suggested as a revision seems to be the same as what you initially proposed. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Clearly, I'm having trouble seeing how the proposed text would encourage ILIKEIT edits. Would you please elaborate? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Your proposal suggests that editors must have either a substantive rationale or an existing/in-process consensus in order to revert a change, but applies no such constraints on making the change in the first place. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:28, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. How about something like this:

Explanations supporting a bold edit or revert should cite policy, sources, or another substantive basis for the change. Lack of consensus, standing alone, only supports an edit when the content of the change is the subject of (a) a current talk page discussion or (b) a prior discussion that reached consensus. In such cases editors should link to the applicable discussion.

Does that resolve your concern? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

That's less problematic, but what do you mean by "explanations"? And what happens if there was a previous discussion that resulted in no consensus, as opposed to just no previous discussion? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:30, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

If you'll permit me, let's work on your first issue first. "Explanations" in this circumstance is synonymous with "statements," "rationales" (reasons). or "arguments" - what an editor would put in an edit summary or talk page post. Do any of those words, or something else entirely. sound better to you? Also, I'm thinking maybe "supporting" should be "in support of." So, for example, the first sentence could begin with "Statements in support of a bold edit or revert ..." Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 05:38, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Or maybe ditch "explanations" altogether and go with "Editors should support bold edits and reverts with citations to ..."? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:54, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure either of those options will be readily understood by those not participating in this discussion. I'm also wondering about how this applies in practice. For example, if I make an edit with the summary "ce" (ie. copyedit), does that count as a "statement"? Is that a "citation"? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, now we have three issues. With your indulgence, I'd like to keep our focus on the first one for now. How about this as the beginning of the first sentence: "Edit summaries and talk page posts in support of a bold edit or revert should include a citation to ..."? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 01:44, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Same question: If I make an edit with the edit summary "ce" (meaning "copyedit"), does that meet this proposed standard? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

How about this:

Base edit summaries in support of a bold edit or revert on policy, sources, common sense, or another substantive reason for the change.

"Base" and "common sense" come from wp:DISCUSSCONSENSUS and, I think (you may disagree), is broad enough - in conjunction with "another substantive basis" - to encompass copy editing. (Note: Since the proposed text would appear in wp:EDITCONSENSUS, I've taken out "and talk page posts.") Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:27, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I would hope anyone making any edit would think it's supported by common sense - but common sense isn't necessarily so common ;-). I don't think this sentence is objectionable as a principle, although I still have concerns about how it may be applied in practice. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Great! If it is applied inappropriately in practice then we can tweak it. On to the second part of the proposed text. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:11, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Substituting in the improved first sentence, we have:

Base edit summaries in support of a bold edit or revert on policy, sources, common sense, or another substantive reason for the change. Lack of consensus, standing alone, only supports a bold edit when the content of the change is the subject of (a) a current talk page discussion or (b) a prior discussion that reached consensus. In such cases editors should link to the applicable discussion.

Above, you asked "what happens if there was a previous discussion that resulted in no consensus, as opposed to just no previous discussion?" I'm okay with changing "... (a) a current talk page discussion or (b) a prior discussion that reached consensus" to "... a current or prior talk page discussion." Does that resolve your concern? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:11, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

My interpretation of the modified second sentence is that lack of consensus in an ongoing discussion is appropriate justification for a bold edit. That's quite a bit broader than even BRD suggests. Was that intended? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:17, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Dang those unintended consequences! What if we changed that sentence to "Lack of consensus, standing alone, only supports a bold revert when the content of the reverted change is the subject of a current or prior talk page discussion"? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 05:59, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Does "bold revert" mean something different from just "revert"? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:52, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Nope. It's just left over from the prior text ("bold edit"). I'm happy to take it out. Any other concerns? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:03, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

If the editors who are abusing this policy to try to win arguments ignore CONLIMITED and the fundamental definition which includes "Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines" then why wouldn't they just ignore this addition, too? It seems like it would just shift the debate to words like "current", "substantive", and applying consensus to something in the past. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

To your first point: The fact that abusive editors ignore policies should not prevent us from improving polices for the rest of the editing community.

To your second point: First, I welcome any proposed improvements to the text. Would removing "substantive" make it better? Second, this text speaks to the "R" of BRD, not the discussion that ensues thereafter, and would appear in wp:EDITCONSENSUS. Would it help if we changed "only supports removal of a change" to "only supports a revert of a change"? Or can you propose something better to make it clearer that the proposed text does not apply once a discussion has begun? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 17:07, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• The problem with “no consensus” is that a lack of consensus to do X is too often interpreted as a consensus to do Y. Perhaps we should include a “Consensus is mixed” for situations where viewpoints are fairly evenly split. And perhaps: “Consensus is to NOT do X, but there is no consensus on what TO do instead.” Blueboar (talk) 17:25, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I see the problem you are pointing out regarding wp:NOCON. That is certainly worth further discussion. Do you think adding my proposed text to wp:EDITCONSENSUS would impede developing your idea? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) May 31, 2021

Disagree with proposed change. This would just add more wikilawyering as a result of an attempt to reduce wikilawyering. For example if there was material that is just a somewhat bad idea to put into the article (that does not violate any policies), this could be used to wikilawyer to force the material in. The reason is: Most content decisions are the result of weighing multiple factors. Trying to instead prescribe the end result is usually problematic. North8000 (talk) 18:08, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Please stand by. I'm (slowly) working on taking into account the concerns expressed above to generate an improved proposal. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 20:37, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I like it. Or something like it. It's super frustrating to me to have edits reverted, they say "reach concensus" first (no other reasoning), then you ask on the Talk page and don't get any feedback at all, then they still won't let you publish your edit. Maybe something like "if concensus is the only negative reasoning given, ask for review on the Talk page, if the other editor does not engage in discussion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Responding_to_a_failure_to_discuss" or something like that... Rogerdpack. (talk) 18:08, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Yep, it's a problem alright. I've just added a See also section to wp:Responding to a failure to discuss with two other guides which seem to have independently been written to deal with the problem of the wp:I just don't like it editor. I'm (slowly) working on modifying my draft to take into account concerns expressed above. Please watch this space. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 20:14, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

• Ok… there are several scenarios we need to break out here:

FIRST: there is the situation when an issue HAS been discussed in the past and there IS an existing consensus about it. In this case a revert with “No consensus” or “Get consensus” really means: “Reverting because there is consensus against this.” It may be lazy wording, but it is valid. In this scenario, it is then up to the editor making the edit to go to the talk page and convince others that the existing consensus needs to be re-examined (ie “consensus can change” applies). That will be difficult (especially if the issue has been discussed multiple times). Responding editors should (at a minimum) state that the issue has been discussed before and has been decided. Ideally they would also point to the thread(s) where the consensus was reached. However, we do need to understand that there are some issues that have been discussed SO MANY TIMES that editors grow tired of having to have the same argument over and over again. This is one situation where it is easy to get BITEY. It helps to pin a note explaining the consensus to the top of the talk page (so it does not get archived)… and point to that note when you revert, rather than simply say “no consensus”.

SECOND is the scenario where the issue HASN’T been discussed, but the text has been in place for a long time (ie, there is a “silent consensus” for the current text). I agree that if you revert this with “no consensus” or “get consensus first”, you are indicating a willingness to discuss, and should do so. At a minimum, you should assert “silent consensus” on the talk page, and be ready to defend that assertion.

THIRD: there is the scenario where the issue has not been discussed, the text isn’t that old, and someone reverts with “get consensus”. Here the reverting editor is essentially saying “IDONTLIKEIT” and is making the other person jump through hoops in the hope that they will go away. This is a form of WP:OWNERSHIP, and should be discouraged. However, it is still (ultimately) up to the editor who wants the change to make the first move, and open a discussion. Call in outside opinions to establish consensus.

FINALLY: there is the scenario where the changing editor DOES open a discussion, and no one responds at all. Here is how I think the changing editor should REACT in this scenario: a) if, after a reasonable time (a day or two) no one responds to that thread, I would say it is OK to try the edit again (with an edit summary of “see talk - is there a new silent consensus?”. b) if the edit is again reverted, and STILL no one responds to the talk page thread, you can complain that the reverter is not acting in good faith, and call on outside help (dispute resolution, perhaps even ANI). Blueboar (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

If the edit summary for a revert says "no consensus" and nothing else, how does the reverted editor know which scenario applies? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 23:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Um… by going to the talk page and asking. Blueboar (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

There is also the scenario where it has been discussed and no consensus was reached - see elsewhere in this discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

True… but that scenario is already dealt with in the guideline… unless there are BLP or copyright issues, we default to the version of the article that existed prior to the edit in question. That does not mean we stop our attempts to come to a clearer consensus… discussions can continue… it just means that “for now” we keep things as they were UNTIL a clearer consensus is achieved. Blueboar (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• And there is also a scenario when some user identifies some problem with existing content (e.g., some statement "X") and explains how that content violates our policy (e.g. WP:V), but no consensus is achieved about that (i.e. some users think "X" is well sourced, which means it meets the policy, whereas others think otherwise). What should we do in that situation? Should it be interpreted as "The is no consensus that the statement "X" violates WP:V", or "There is no consensus that the statement "X" meets WP:V"? Currently, the policy explains only one situation: deletion discussion. However, this type discussions are a quite separate case, because if the decision is "delete", the content is permanently removed from WP. Meanwhile, in all other cases, the removed content remains preserved in the page history, which means the deletion rules in that case do not have to be that stringent.

If we apply the same criteria to the articles deletion and deletion of ordinary content, which is preserved in the page history, we seem to have a conflict with other policies. Thus, if WP:V says that all material in Wikipedia mainspace must be verifiable, but the discussion of some statement fails to come to a consensus that it is verifiable (although there is no agreement that it is not verifiable), it seems obvious that that content should be removed, because there is no agreement that it meets WP:V. However, taking into account that removal is supposed to be supported by consensus (and that consensus has not been achieved, because some users still believe the content is verifiable), we cannot remove it per WP:CON. I think, we need to clarify the policy to fix that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:25, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Please do not confuse “Deletion” (which on WP applies to entire articles) with removal of content. We have different rules for retention/removal of article content than we do for Deletion/Retention of entire articles. Unlike a deleted article, removal of content is NOT necessarily permanent - for example, if content is removed because it is not properly sourced, it can be returned at a later date when a proper reliable source is found. If content is removed because consensus thinks it is not really relevant enough to mention, it can be returned if consensus changes and editors agree that it is in fact relevant (this might happen because a source is discovered that was not considered in previous discussions.) Blueboar (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Blueboar, that is exactly what I mean: deletion and removal of content are two different things. However, I frequently face a situation when there is a disagreement about removal of some content (not deletion). In a situation when opinia are split about compliance of some content with our policy (e.g. WP:V or WP:NOR), users cite WP:NOCON and claim that that content should stay because there is no consensus to remove it. In connection to that, I propose to clarify the policy. In reality, it seems WP:CON does not explain what should we do in a situation if no consensus is achieved about compliance of some content with our policy: should the content be removed/changed, or it should stay?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:16, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

This is why we have policy Noticeboard pages... so when local editors csn not reach consensus, and need outside opinions as to whether or how a policy applies to a specific bit of content, they can ask experienced editors to share an opinion. Another option is to file a formal RFC to determine how to interpret a policy or guideline in a given situation. Blueboar (talk) 17:29, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

The situation described by me is very common, and even some experienced admins seem not to understand the policy correctly. That means it probably makes sense to modify the policy instead of explaining the same things endlessly. We should explain that if there is a disagreement about compliance of some content with WP:V, that means there is no consensus about compliance of the content with WP:V, and, therefore, the content should be removed. Otherwise, we have a conflict between WP:V and WP:CON.

If we take WP:V as an example, compare these two statements.

• The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. That means if no consensus is achieved that the added/restored material is verifiable, the burden had not been sustained.
• In discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. That is usually interpreted as if there is no consensus that some material is not verifiable, the material that has been removed as non-verifiable should stay.

It is easy to see that that interpretation leads to a direct conflict between WP:V and WP:CON.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

No… at best it may lead to a potential conflict. The problem is that, in the scenario you describe, the violation of policy is itself the question that has yet to be determined. We have not (yet) determined whether there is a violation of policy or not. So, except for things like BLP or copyright, we default to “we will temporarily say there isn’t a policy violation, but this isn’t final.” Blueboar (talk) 18:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand you. If we have a dispute over some potential policy violation, and the opinia are split nearly evenly, the result of that discussion is "no consensus", and that decision is final (for example, that may be a summary of the discussion after a formal closure). However, the question is: ""no consensus" about WHAT?" That the content does NOT violate the policy, or that the content DOES violate it? --Paul Siebert (talk) 19:22, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Policy disagreement

Zero0000 and I disagree on the application of this policy.

“ In discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. ”

As far as I understand it, the burden to achieve consensus is on the person who is removing referenced information which is not obviously wrong and doesn't have BLP issues. Zero0000 believes that per WP:ONUS the burden is on the editor who wants to keep the information even if it's been there for a long time. Would be happy to hear third opinion. Alaexis_¿question? 07:01, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree that "the burden to achieve consensus is on the person who is removing referenced information which is not obviously wrong and doesn't have BLP issues". --Bduke (talk) 07:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the burden to achieve consensus is on the person who is removing longstanding content which has WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS. I believe the key word in WP:ONUS is "achieve": The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Content with implicit consensus has already achieved consensus. This has been debated exhaustively in the archives here and at WT:V. Kolya Butternut (talk) 08:12, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

(Note the relevance of this to the discussion in the previous section.). The difference between WP:ONUS and WP:NOCONSENSUS is that WP:ONUS specifies who has the responsibility for obtaining a consensus, while WP:NOCONSENSUS specifies what "commonly" happens if an attempt to achieve consensus has failed. The very purpose of ONUS is to distinguish between inclusion and exclusion. What NOCONSENSUS most definitely does not mean is "it has to stay in the article until I agree to remove it". The case that Alaexis hopes to get support on by asking an "in principle" question shows exactly that in my opinion. Note that the argument for removal includes an RS challenge that Alaexis has not even responded to. Zero^talk 08:34, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent my position. I'm not saying that the information in question needs to stay until I agree to remove it. I'm saying that contentious changes need to be discussed and this discussion has barely started. Alaexis_¿question? 09:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm generally in favor of long term material staying but that's not an iron clad way around ONUS iirc there was a hoohah over some medical stuff sitting around for ages and that had to go. If there is a valid objection to the material, accuracy, sourcing, the usual, it needs to come out.Selfstudier (talk) 09:27, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

You are right, however none of this is applicable here: it's not a medical or BLP question, the source is not prima facie unreliable and it's quoted accurately. Alaexis_¿question? 09:41, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

It would help if you gave us a link to your discussion. Is it a discussion between two people who haven't found a middle ground? Perhaps you should seek a third opinion regarding the substances of your dispute rather than regarding what to do when there is no consensus. See wp:3O. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I believe we would be able to reach an agreement. If not we would seek third opinion. Alaexis_¿question? 05:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

(Butwhatdoiknow: I linked to it above.) There is already a third opinion and Alaexis has reverted again without bothering to respond to my RS challenge. Sorry folks, this doesn't belong on this page. Zero^talk 08:56, 9 June 2021 (UTC)