Talk:Sri Lankan Moors

Meta79 repeated removing 2 web referenced statement==

Meta79 is repeated removing a referenced statement in 2nd paragraph about Sinhalese and Tamil converts to Islam in Sri lanka". Sri Lanka's Islamic community has converts from both Tamil and Sinhalese communities and I have posted 2 web references to back that up. Kindly seeking PharoehofWizard's help. Kindly please understand (1) Not every Muslim in Sri Lanka is of Middle Eastern ancestry (2) Arab traders and Persian and Jewish traders did come to Sri Lanka as they came to Malabar region of India for trade (3) Some of them settled intermarried with both dravidian women (mostly) and Aryan women (few Sinhalese) (4) Their descendants adopted the primary dominant language of the regions (5) There are no pure blooded Arabs in Sri lanka any more (6) The Muslim community of Sr Lanka now includes the descendants of these Arab traders (a minority) together with Tamil and Sinhalese converts to Islam. While Tamil is widely spoken by the Moors, there are also those who speak Sinhalese (7) Tamils are a small minority in Sri Lanka. Please keep in mind the statistical realities. (8) Please be objective minded about this and understand the existing diversity within the present Sri Lankan Moor community.- Dr Ananda Padmanaban. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrAnandaPadmanaban (talk • contribs) 19:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

"Sri Lankan Muslims have both Tamil and Sinhalese converts, together with a minority who are the progeny of West Asian traders."

The two references that you have cited do not support the above statement you have written, hence why I have removed it.

No where in your sources does it say that 'a minority' are of Arab descent.

No where in your sources does it say that there are pure Sinhala converts to Islam (as opposed to mixed Sinhala-Arab and mixed Sinhala-Tamil Muslim descent.)

Very few Sri Lankan Muslims are simply Sinhala converts as your statement suggests.

Metta79 (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Please understand, Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity. A religion can have converts from any ethnic group on this earth. A religion is not an indicator of an origin. My sentence mentioned a factual statement affirmed by the 2 web links provided that the Islamic community (Islam as a total) in Sri Lanka has both Sinhalese, Tamil converts as well as mixed race people. Tamil speakers form the majority at this point. You have also forgotten that there are Pakistani immigrants, Gujarati migrants (Memons), Pathans (From Afghanistan), Malays in the total Islamic community in Sri Lanka (not Moors alone specifically). What is the genetic evidence that all Moors are descendants of Arab men and Tamil women? It may hold true for some, not all. Sinhalese women also have married foreign men long ago and converted to their religion. There are also new converts to Islam from Sinhalese community as well. If that was not the case, why would Buddhist fundamentalists be up arms about conversions? My sentence reflects a diversity that exists within the Moor community, and this diversity includes mixed race (few), Tamil (majority) and Sinhala converts (minority) - AnandaPadmanaban

After going through this reference sorry to state cannot where it talks about sinhala converts this oneWhy Tamil-speaking Muslims in Sri Lanka broke away from Tamil identity it states "Many islanders, however, reject the idea of any significant Arab past for the Muslims. They say Sri Lankan Muslims are not Arab descendants, but successors of oppressed Tamil Hindus who converted to Islam in the 19th century. They were Muslim by religion and Tamils by ethnicity and hence still share cultural features of Tamils in Tamil Nadu."Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk)

Language

What is the native and primary language of moors? Add reference from reliable source. --AntanO 08:27, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Already, there is a reference. Anyone disagree? --AntanO 08:30, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Origins of Moors

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Origin of Moors should re-write. Here are some reference:

• What Genetic Studies Say about Sinhalese, Tamils in Sri Lanka and South Indians
• Genetic affinities of Sri Lankan populations
• Sri Lankan Muslims are low caste Tamil-Hindu converts, not arab descendants

--AntanO 08:47, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

// A study on genetic variation indicates, a genetic relationship between Arabs and the Moors.// But, there is nothing about this in the reference. Did arab bring woman with them or married local woman in Sri Lanka? If they married in Sri Lanka, definitely they will have genetic relationship with native Sri Lankans. Or, does the study limited to male/female linage? --AntanO 11:13, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

// To keep it simple and non technical I have added a direct citation to Dr. Illaperuma.Floating Philosopher

To summarize the edits I intend to make, I will re write this article citing genetic studies of Dr. Illaperuma and the official history found at http://muslimaffairs.gov.lk/muslims-of-sri-lanka/ which is accepted by the Sri Lankan Moors them selves. The existing content cites foreign authors, Tamil authours who base their conclusions SOLELY on linguistic and cultural practices of some Moors which is a weak if not incorrect indication of origin, so I shall summarize that content and point out that genetic studies discredits it. Agreed? Floating Philosopher

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Floating philosopher (talk • contribs) 13:10, 18 December 2017 (UTC) 

We don't care whether Muslim or non-Muslim accept. We need reliable source. You can't simply reject by saying "foreign authors" which is not a practice in Wikipedia. I have given above links from non-Tamil as well as academic personalities. BTW, I have seen many Muslim, especially in Eastern Sri Lanka, they have body and facial feature like Tamils or Sinhalese. Are you going to say no? --AntanO 16:04, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Floating Philosopher seems to be having the right edits here. FP is citing official government sources and genetic studies. AntoniO is citing works that have no basis in genetics here. Instead they call Moors Tamil only because of language. Ethnicity is ethnicity no matter what language they speak. It doesn't matter here what bodily features AntonO has seen, genetics is genetics here.

If we are to go by bodily features here Chinese and Japanese are the same ethnicity, and we are here all English men. Anton you here are talking rubbish. I second Floating Philosopher s edits. Ibnserendib (talk) 17:24, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

AntanO Are you not capable of reading a complete sentence? Floating Philosopher is not simply rejecting because the authors are foreign, he is rejecting it because there text calls Moors Tamils, sorry based on the fact that they speak Tamil and have some Tamil customs. We in Algeria speak French so does that mean we are ethnically French? Algerians and Morroccon's look alike to outsiders, so does that mean they are of the same ethnicity? You really need to pay attention.

Most of the sources reference someone called Ponnambalam Ramanathan, and his wiki page states he was a university drop out due to "youthful excesses". How credible are these academics.

Floating Philosopher seems to cite an official government source, which is more credible. Sweefat (talk) 18:49, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

This AntanO is clearly unable to read. He has just put a not in citation tag for an article that clearly states "There is considerable evidence that early Arabian settlers of the country intermarried with the daughters of the land" and also the article states "The mtDNA tree indicates a clustering of Sinhalese and Moors, suggesting a close affinity when compared to the Veddahas and Sri Lanka Tamils." This does indicate a genetic relation between Arabs Sinhalese and Moors.

I am going to undo his edit. AntanO please respond? Sweefat (talk) 19:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Genetics

Sinhalese and Moors are closely related with each other? If so, what is Genetic studies on Sinhalese? In the article, you could see Sinhalese language is spoken by those Moors whose maternal lineage is Sinhalese and Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil ?!--AntanO 08:04, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Intro

There are some areas to write clearly.

• What is "Arabic-influenced Tamil". Does Sri Lanka practice such language? Will it switch Arabic-influenced Sinhala too?
• intermarried with local women - Who are they? Sinhalese, Tamil, Vedda, etc?
• ancestry to Arab - But there are Indian, Malays,etc.
• Sri Lankan Muslim community is divided as Sri Lankan Moors, Indian Moors and Sri Lankan Malays. - There are Sufi, Shia and Wahabi sects too.

--AntanO 08:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Removal of X-SRT

@AntanO: Can you please give a valid reason for removing the research results of the x-SRT genetic variance? -UmdP 18:11, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

See above --AntanO 18:12, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

You have not given any reason disputing the research or the results. Thank you -UmdP 18:13, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Have you seen under "Genetics"? --AntanO 18:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

So where is the dispute of the results of the x-srt genetic variance? Do you have any other values on those x-srts that contradict those values? Thank you. - UmdP 18:17, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

It is not notable. Read also Genetic studies on Sinhalese. In the article, you could see Sinhalese language is spoken by those Moors whose maternal lineage is Sinhalese and Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil So, it is dispute and contradiction. Do not baptize an ethnic group by a small report. --AntanO 18:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

And that a existing statement in wikipedia invalidates all research data? Also it is not a contradiction because it has no data or research on x-srt that disputes the research results. No one "baptized" any ethnic group by finding the genetic variance of x-srts. - UmdP 18:25, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Moors population is 1,869,820 as per 2012. But, research data is based on 838 individuals. Isn't bias? Genetic studies on Sinhalese do not say any link with Moors. So which is right? By the way, article itself say that ... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil. This is contradiction between maternal lineage and x-srt. --AntanO 18:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

If you are going to add those x-srt, I have to tag with issues like NPOV, etc. One article cannot have contradiction itself. BTW, tell me what is X-SRT?--AntanO 18:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

The sample size is adequate and they are unrelated. Also no you have not provided any scientific research that contradicts this one. This is going in circles so its better to go for dispute resolution. Thank you -UmdP 18:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Also my bad. It was a typo from phone -UmdP 18:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

You did not answer to my questions.

• \\The sample size is adequate and they are unrelated\\ How could you say?
• \\you have not provided any scientific research\\ Genetic studies on Sinhalese
• ... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil Are you going to say no?
• what is X-SRT?

--AntanO 18:51, 22 September 2021 (UTC)