Talk:September 2022 Armenia–Azerbaijan clashes

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Ceasefire failed

@Dunutubble: The Russian broken ceasefire was broken within minutes and the clashes are continuing. These two Twitter accounts are giving updates. [1], [2]. Viewsridge (talk) 14:00, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Name

Invasion? No one is calling it an invasion. ([3] [4] [5] [6]) It should be changed back to clashes. All Azerbaijan has done (as of now) is capture some heights on the border, not invading it's neighbor. Nothing in the article as well says anything about an invasion. Yes, Azerbaijan has moved into Armenia's recognized borders but if they were launching an invasion, they would have (or at least tried to) take more Armenian land and villages. As more time passes, if it turns out to develop into an invasion or not, we will have to see, but clashes between Armenians and Azerbaijanis are not rare. (If it does develop into an invasion, remove "September" from the title and change "Invasion" to "invasion" as well.) Mtcat101 (talk) 23:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I've moved it myself back to clashes. Mtcat101 (talk) 23:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mtcat101: Shouldn’t it be titled September 2022 Armenia-Azerbaijan border clashes? Blaylockjam10 (talk) 00:50, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, I completely missed that. It's fixed now. Mtcat101 (talk) 01:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Blaylockjam10 and Mtcat101: The clashes are not necessarily limited to the border, Armenia has said that the city of Martuni was shelled by Azerbaijan. The towns of Jermuk and Goris were also shelled which are not adjacent to the border. Viewsridge (talk) 06:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

It's well known that the media report on this in a very pro-Azerbaijan way. Looking at this objectively, parts of Syunik, Vayots Dzor and Gegharkunik provinces (UNCONTESTED AREAS OF THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA) are being invaded, civilians have been killed. How the hell is that not an invasion??? If for example, the USA randomly invaded Toronto, started shelling canadian military sites etc, by your logic, you would then say that "clashes have taken place in the disputed territory of Ontario"., even though there is no international consensus that these lands are disputed, beyond the most fringe propaganda of the state of Azerbaijan. Mikeo34 (talk) 10:40, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mikeo34: This has not been described as an invasion by any third party or even first party source for that matter, including by Armenians themselves. Even in the case that it had been, such a change would require a renaming discussion first. I am reverting the article back to its old name, please discuss first before making such changes. Viewsridge (talk) 11:06, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Viewsridge: Media uses different descriptions, including “Azerbaijan has attacked Armenia” [7] or "war"[8], while human rights organisations like Lemkin institute call it a “war of aggression” [9] and Freedom House calles it "Attacks on Armenia" [10]. A number of government/parliamentary statements describe it as a "large-scale attack"[11] [12], or “aggression” [13], on the "sovereign territory of Armenia". Most US senators/congressmen refer to “(unrpovocked/unwarranted) attack/aggression/offensive/assault on/in Armenia” by Azerbaijan [14], [15] [16][17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22][23] The US state department also confirmes “significant evidence of Azerbaijani shelling inside Armenia and significant damage to Armenian infrastructure"[24] , while Armenia has reported already 4 civilians wounded and over 2500 displaced[25] and the fact that it’s been brought up in the UN Security Council also suggests more than just “border clashes”... Hence the current title seems misleading as it does not reflect the scale of the attack (if you see the maps[26] it's basically covering 30-40 percent of the entire territory of Armenia) and the fact that Azerbaijan is recognised as the instigator of the attacks and that the fighting is inside internationally recognised borders of Armenia. So I would suggest renaming it to something more appropriate, like a "large-sale military aggression/attack/offensive on Armenia by Azerbaijan" or similar. Vanezi (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

UNDUE?

@ZaniGiovanni: Please explain why AzMoD's statement is UNDUE. It is not displayed in Wikivoice and is explicitly stated to be *their* statement. There is nearly identical information in the section below the one you reverted, but from the Armenian MoD. How come you don't think that's UNDUE? — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 12:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "nearly identical" statement you’re talking about, I'm going to comment on my revert.

Saying Azerbaijan didn't enter Armenian territory is utter nonsense even if it's a MoD statement, WP:UNDUE applies here. Especially when Azerbaijan already occupies Armenian territory around Lake Sev. [27], [28] which makes such a statement even more UNDUE, WikiVoice or otherwise. Unless third party RS confirm such exceptional claims, it shouldn't be used in the article. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

You know, the one that was added just before mine. Anyway.

I really don't think you understand what UNDUE means. To omit statement from one of the two sides of the conflict is definitely not something that policy would support. But oh well. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 12:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The Az MoD version is in the section already; September_2022_Armenia–Azerbaijan_clashes#12–13_September.

What was removed were exceptional and undue claims contradicting RS and current occupation of Armenian land near Lake Sev, making such statements even more UNDUE. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Aliyev's irredentist territorial claims

A paragraph I had added regarding Aliyev's irredentist claims over Armenia's sovereign territories which are currently attacked by Azerbaijan was removed by Golden. I need further explanation on why those statements don't belong to the background section as they are concering the currently attacked provinces which he continuously held territorial claims on over the years.

Hi, please read WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Unless a reliable source has connected Aliyev's past irredentist claims to the modern clashes, your own conclusion that they're connected would be original research and not appropriate for Wikipedia. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 12:39, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Civilian casualties

Two azeri civilians were killed according to Azerbaijan, "Joint Statement of the Azerbaijan Ministry of Defense and the Prosecutor General's Office". This is given in the article, but not the information box. Please, add this to the information box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.134.57.203 (talk) 15:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Background section needs expansion

The background section needs to be improved, however, I'm unable to edit the source of the page. If any of the contributors would be interested in doing that I can provide more sources (User:Vanezi Astghik, User:ZaniGiovanni maybe?).

The first paragraph of that section should include some details about the dispute over the so called Zangezur corridor, with Aliyev's threatening statement from April 2021. Here are some analysis of the current events connecting both Zangezur corridor dispute, and Aliyev's threatening statements/territorial claims to the background of the current attacks. This can be restored as well with more details added about the corridor dispute. Yellowheawrt (talk) 18:15, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Undue weight

Eurasianet, Deseret News, Reuters, The Jerusalem Post, and Laurence Broers have acknowledged that the clashes were started by Azerbaijan, so it is WP:UNDUE to "both sides" who started it. Dallavid (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2022 (UTC)