Talk:Eadgils

Wouldn't 'eth' - ð - be better transliterated into Modern English as 'th' than 'd' the way it is used in this article? Plynn9 18:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

d is used as a transliteration in the cases where the source texts use d, e.g. in the English translation cited and in the Latin summary of the Skjöldunga saga. His name has different forms in various sources and the different forms are used to help the reader check facts.--Berig 18:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, cheers. I can see that it's been widely used as 'd'. Pity. Plynn9 19:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

How about some proof?

User:Berig says the identification Áli = Onela is older than Wikipedia. I would like to see a decent reference for that. As it stands, there is only a reference to Ála being a genitiv form. I think this is trying to make the reader believe that the identification is supported by the evidence. The reference provided is very unspecific http://www.sofi.se/GetDoc?meta_id=1464, to a portal site completely in Swedish. I dug it up, but it does not prove anything. Waste of time. Now Berig, put up, or I will delete again. /Pieter Kuiper 00:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The article Ale in Nationalencyklopedin (1989) is one source. What about Birger Nerman 1925:149ff? You'll find the book in the list of secondary sources. Or Carl Anderson 1999:102, 110.? All the three sources are older than WP. The author of the article in Nationalencyklopedin considered the connection so factual that he does not even mention the name form Onela, but only states that the Ale of Snorri and Ynglingatal appears in Beowulf too.--Berig 00:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Both of your references to Anderson just point out how problematic that identification is. And Birger Nerman does not seem very current. /Pieter Kuiper 01:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Nationalencyklopedin has to be considered "current" and it does not "point out how problematic that identification is". Moreover, Andersson says that the battle between Aðils and Áli is echoed in the animosity between Eadgils and Onela, so please do not exaggerate. The identification is not a debated issue outside of this talkpage.--Berig 05:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You are the one who is exaggerating tenuous litterary parallels. The sagas also 'echo' the Old Testament. Andersson also says that Saxo 'echoes' Cicero. As Andersson says, Áli is not a member of the Ynglinge dynasty, which would make the identification rather problematic. /Pieter Kuiper 07:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

No primary source makes any statement about Áli's dynastic origins, so please point out something more substantial. Moreover, it is not *I* who exaggerate "tenuous literary parallels" as you can see by the sources I gave you. It is you who are trying to make up an academic debate in the issue.--Berig 07:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Andersson says: Áli not an Yngling

Look, in the reference so kindly provided by yourself, Andersson explicitly states that Áli, although appearing in Ynglingatal, is not a member of the Yngling dynasty. /Pieter Kuiper 08:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

True, what Andersson probably means is that he is not listed as a member of the Yngling dynasty in Ynglingatal, since he is only mentioned as an enemy of Aðils. However, Andersson finishes his discussion by stating (ch 4, p 110):

[...] the battle between Aðils and Áli on the ice of lake Vænir, which is echoed in Eadgils's and Onela's conflict in Beowulf. Such elements most likely represent native Scandinavian traditions.

Consequently Andersson does not take any stance against the identification between Áli and Onela, but instead he considers the connection to be so well-founded that there is "most likely" a Scandinavian origin for the legend of Onela/Áli.--Berig 13:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It is perfectly clear what Andersson means by: "Áli, although appearing in Ynglingatal, is not a member of the Yngling dynasty". The writer of Ynglingatal cannot have regarded Áli as an Yngling. /Pieter Kuiper 14:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Why? Please, explain. You appear to be making two claims here: 1) Andersson contradicts himself when he finishes his argumentation by identifying Áli with Onela, and 2) you know what the author of Ynglingatal had in mind, or not, while he composed the terse poem.--Berig 14:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

No, Andersson is not contradicting himself, just try to understand what he means. The author of Ynglingatal would never have missed the chance of describing a family conflict. Anderssons argumentum e silentio is rather strong here, because it would go against the rules of the genre to not to mention such a thing. /Pieter Kuiper 14:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Provided that Snorri quoted all stanzas of Ynglingatal or if the poet did not expected his audience to know about the family relationship already. This means that you are pleading argument from personal incredulity, which is using a logic fallacy in addition to your initial shifting of the burden of proof. Note that the discussion concerns an identification between Onela and Áli and it is an identification that Andersson subscribes to. Andersson's identification makes your claim that Andersson means that Áli cannot have been an Yngling a bit extreme as an interpretation. Note that the author of the article Ale in Nationalencyklopedin considers it to be a fact that Áli was an Yngling (described as the paternal uncle of Adils). That is a much better indication of what is generally agreed upon than your personal interpretation of a line in a dissertation.--Berig 14:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

If Áli was an Yngling, Snorri did not know about this. That is Anderson's position, I do not think it is possible that he meant anything else. /Pieter Kuiper 15:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

True, but don't expect Old Norse poetry to convey all the information that was around at the time of its composition. Old Norse poetry was intended to be somewhat of a challenge for the listener with ample use of kennings, and do not expect Snorri to have had understood all the relevant references at the time he wrote it down. There's a reason why the scholars involved in the presentation of the article Ale in Nationalencyklopedin considered the connection between Áli and Onela to be factual.--Berig 18:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

PS, you seem to be in the habit of using logic fallacies when you argue (argument from personal incredulity and argumentum e silentio).--Berig 18:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

If that master of nordic lore Snorri did not know about Áli being an Yngling, Áli in the Edda can not be equated with Onela. Whatever Áli's origins, in Snorri's writings he has become a distinct literary figure. Analogous to the characters in Tolkien's epic novels - one would not equate say Galadriel with his possible origins in nordic literature. /Pieter Kuiper 19:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You appear to forget that most scholars hold Ynglingatal to have been preserved orally for four centuries before Snorri wrote it down. You entered this discussion without knowing anything about this character and suddently, this obscure POV is extremely important to you. What you are engaging in is called disruptive behaviour on WP.--Berig 05:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Moreoever, if you edited honestly, you would add that Anderson subscribes to the identification.--Berig 06:26, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, in that case, please modify. But do not just revert to your version. /Pieter Kuiper 08:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Misunderstanding of WP:3RR policy

User:Berig has deleted three times in a row a scholarly reference to the PhD thesis of Carl Elund Anderson, for reasons that are difficult to understand. Berig himself has adduced this thesis as an authority (see edit history, talk page). Berig regards this as 'his' article, it seems, to be read as gospel, not to be edited by anybody else. Well, in that case he can have his own website, but this is not acceptable behaviour on Wikipedia. I will report this as a violation of WP:3RR. /Pieter Kuiper 07:47, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:3RR concerns more than three reverts of the same article, within a 24h period. For information about the dispute, please see discussion above this subsection.--Berig 07:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I thought that 3 times was the limit. In any case, your behaviour is disruptive. The blocking policy does not mean that you have the right to three reverts. And please read WP:OWN. "If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." /Pieter Kuiper 08:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope that you understand that "If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it" also applies to your own edits.--Berig 08:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

please try to find a compromise solution. It seems it is undisputed that the Ynglingatal does explicitly state Áli was a member of the Ynglings. In this case, why refer to Anderson? Merely state "the roughly contemporary Norwegian Ynglingatal (which does not explicitly count Áli among the Ynglings)" or something. dab (𒁳) 10:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

wait, I don't follow -- why does this even matter? Where do we suggest Onela was one of the Ynglings? It's a complete non-sequitur to state "btw., nobody ever said Onela was an Yngling". If this is at all relevant, take it to the Onela article. dab (𒁳) 10:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the issue is the total identification of Ale=Onela made here. But I agree that this is more relevant in the Onela-article, and I tried putting this in, but User:Berig reverted me also there (and that is how he got up to more than 3RR). /Pieter Kuiper 10:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)