Wikipedia:Deletion review/Allegations of Chinese apartheid: Difference between revisions

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Allegations of Chinese apartheid

This article and related articles has been subject to intense content disputes, replete with accusations, personal attacks, etc. It was nominated for deletion at 01:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC), and the nomination attracted at least as much controversy and discussion as the article itself.

^demon closed the nomination two days prematurely at a point where there were - by my rough count - 59 who wanted it deleted, and 45 who wanted it kept. Others counts showed slightly different results. demon justified the closure by writing he/she was most convinced by the arguments claiming that the article constituted violations of WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, etc. When questioned about this decision on his/her talk page, he/she wrote "It happens with every controversial AfD such as this, and nobody can deny it. I decided to read the debate, and close it, before any "impartial" admin could come in and pass judgment."

There was clearly no consensus one way or the other, and it also appears that the closing admin misconstrued his/her role to be that of a judge in content disputes.

I'm not even going to get into the very tired content dispute here, but it's hard to see how anyone can back this deletion. --Leifern 02:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Without any comment to the technical merits, the above nomination makes many assumptions of bad faith. I urge the nominator to re-write it without the insinuations or step back and ask someone else to write a DRV case for the article, a subject this controversial deserves better. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 02:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no opinion about the admin's motivations for closing, as the presented reasoning makes little sense. But I can go by what he/she wrote for the reasons. --Leifern 02:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I endorsed the deletion, as I would have done it myself had ^demon not beat me by a few minutes. If his reasoning isn't sufficient, use mine. --Hemlock Martinis 02:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I note that Leifern attempted to delete your endorsement/co-closure. An extraordinary thing to do, and completely inappropriate. -- ChrisO 07:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chris, I don't think it is particularly appropriate for one person to publicize their own opinion at the top of a high-traffic page which is not supposed to be edited. There were many admins opposing the deletion, and evidently none of them decided to express their disapproval. The additional "endorsement" gives extra support to a controversial action, creating the illusion that demon had widespread support of respected administrators, while dissenting editors were by custom not permitted to express their own opinions. I don't blame Hemlock Martinis as it sounds like the endorsement was made in good faith (i.e., to avoid a messy DRV), but it is borderline propaganda whether intentional or not. --xDanielx^Talk 07:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't made to avoid a messy DRV, it was made because he was simultaneously closing it and edit conflicted with the actual closer. It is unusual, but hardly a problem. Viridae ^Talk 08:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See Hemlock's explanation. -- ChrisO 08:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I understand; hence my confidence in Hemlock's good faith. Thanks for clarifying. My intent was not to discredit Hemlock, but to defend Leifern's action. (Not that I endorse the action, but I think it was permissible conduct.) --xDanielx^Talk 08:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that there was THIRTY ONE MINUTES between Demon's closing and Hemlock's additional comments on page that is not supposed to be commented on. Was this really an edit conflict? Thirty one minutes seems kind of long for an action that is simultaneous. I am not accusing bad faith, but I think that Leif was justified in removing comments made (by admin or non admin) thirty one minutes after close of AFD on a page marked "do not edit". Bigglove 13:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse; nominator doesn't explain why demon's reading of the debate is incorrect. The normal time, 5 days, does appear to have expired. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn per Leifern. There was no consensus to delete, not even close. As for the above comment about "reading of the debate", I think it's very simple, there was no consensus. There was no basis for discounting any arguments of the "keep" side, so I don't see how this complies with policy. 6SJ7 04:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse the accusation of premature closure is clearly inaccurate; accusing the closing admin of "taking curious pride in deleting rather than creating things" have crossed the line on personal attack, IMHO. The decision taken accurately summarised the mood and arguments of the debate, and the application of wiki policies that basically the article was in breach of WP:SYN. So who cares if the votes were "nearly tied"? AfD is not a vote. Ohconfucius 04:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thanks to those who created the article ;-). I'm sorry you feel sore that "your article" has been deleted, but it has given material which has allowed me to broaden and deepen the Hukou article. Ohconfucius 09:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse - it's clear there's a more general issue here, but I do not find the closure unreasonable, given the ability admins have allowed to determine what consensus is in this case. --Haemo 04:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn This is one of the easier calls I've seen. A clear majority of editors put forth cogent arguments that the article should stay. demon's reasoning for closing is--literally--incomprehensible. That a later editor added an opinion (which was merely a loosely reasoned assertion, rather than an argument) after the AfD had closed is irrelevant. If AfD's are to be decided by random admins who appear to lack experience actually writing articles (correct me if I'm wrong on that), let's have that be the policy. If not, not. IronDuke 04:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This goes for both IronDuke and Leifern: If you have a problem with ^demon's position as an administrator, please take it up with him on his talk page. DRV is NOT the place to be sniping at the closing administrator for perceived bias because they choose to be involved in closing deletion debates. Viridae ^Talk 05:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this is exactly the place, nobody has a problem with Demon choosing "to be involved in closing deletion debates", but people do have a problem when he uses powers he is not supposed to possess then takes it upon himself to judge which side he thinks is "better".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this is not the place. DRV has no power over user conduct beyond the deletion debate in question. If you feel there's a larger problem at work here, an RfC is the best way to handle it. --Hemlock Martinis 07:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody said it does, but it should be fairly obvious that the conduct goes to why the deletion should be overturned. Nobody is attempting to use DR to get demon sanctioned.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"^demon (who takes curious pride in deleting rather than creating things on Wikipedia)" - Leifern and "If AfD's are to be decided by random admins who appear to lack experience actually writing articles" - IronDuke. Both of those people took shots at ^demoon's overall position as an administrator, which is immaterial to this deletion unless there are allegations of gross administrative misconduct. Viridae ^Talk 07:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, nobody here has given any indication that they are confusing this forum with arbcom, and no one believes that sanctions will be levied upon demon simply by writing here. So I fail to see the purpose of your complaining, people can write what they want as long as they are not breaking policy.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the place to start questioning the validity of a ^demon's position as an admin. Full stop. This is regardless of wether any sanctions or de-sysopping are intended from the complaints or not. Including attacks on his general position as an admin that are only vaguely related to the subject in question and totally unrelated to the validity of this specific deletion is exremly bad form. As I said, the place for that kind of material is NOT in a DRV, it is on hsi talk page. Viridae ^Talk 10:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I have changed the nomination wording, some of this may be moot, but I happen to think that ^demon - regardless of his/her intention - was in serious violation of policy and practice in closing the AFD. I tend to avoid lodging formal complaints about individual editors, but I don't think this kind of bad behavior should go unnoticed. I can't even imagine the outcry if another admin had reached the conclusion that the consensus favored keeping the article. --Leifern 11:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am assuming you mean "deleting" the article. IN which case, another admin DID reach the same conclusion, totally independantly of ^demon, at the same time. I know you are aware of that because you removed their comments. Viridae ^Talk 12:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse That was a good thoughtful close of a tough afd. ^demon used his administrative discretion to determine the consensus on the issues of policy rather than counting the votes. Viridae ^Talk 06:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Close was explicitly reasoned, and unlike the American apartheid article, there is no credible claim of a conflict of interest. Cool Hand Luke 07:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn, I really don't have any problem with the vast majority of administrators, but this situation is just one more example of an admin that has either forgotten or just never knew that they are not supposed to have any more power that any other run-of-the-mill wikipedia editor, they just possess a couple more tools to help wikipedia maintain order. Demon seems to believe that he is supposed to be some kind of judge.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per Viridae. I closed the AfD for Allegations of American apartheid on virtually identical grounds, and I agree with Viridae's comments above. Admins are not robots; we're supposed to close AfDs on the basis of policy arguments, not headcounts, and policy trumps consensus. I should also note that Hemlock Martinis effectively co-closed the AfD with the same reasoning (he and ^demon closed simultaneously and got into an edit conflict in doing so). This accidental but fortuitous circumstance makes it clear that ^demon's decision wasn't an arbitrary personal choice but a policy-based decision which two admins simultaneously and independently reached. As for Moshe's comment: yes, admins are "some kind of judge" - judges of policy. That's why we close AfDs. -- ChrisO 07:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this "policy" you are so fond of quoting states just what I wrote, administrators do not have any more power than other wikipedia editors. Maybe if you understood that you would stop making inappropriate "judgements" which you have no power to make. In fact this whole situation can be thrown in with many of your own recent actions to show exactly why admins should not be "judges".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please go and read Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus. I'd like to draw your attention to this line in particular (emphasis added): "Note also that the three key policies, which warrant that articles and information be verifiable, avoid being original research, and be written from a neutral point of view are held to be non-negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closing admin must determine whether any article violates these policies, and where it is very unlikely that an article on the topic can exist without breaching these three policies, these policies must be respected above other opinions.". ^demon and Hemlock (and myself, in that earlier AfD) have quite properly followed this rule. -- ChrisO 07:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I might also add that I think the hostility being shown by Leifern, IronDuke and Moshe is inappropriate and unhelpful. Like it or not, the community has delegated responsibility to admins to close difficult AfDs. By all means disagree with our decisions and tell us if you think we get things wrong, but please don't cast aspersions on our integrity. -- ChrisO 08:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ChrisO, since you abused admin powers in a recent AFD, you would be the last person to teach others about "integrity". ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Care to back up those accusations with some evidence? I am assuming you are talking about the american version of the apartheid articles, in which case I see no great outcry and no deletion review overturning his decision. Viridae ^Talk 08:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact there it was not overturned cannot be considered proof that ChrisO did nothing wrong as any editor with the least amount of experience well knows. Also Chris, your hostility permeates your dialogue at least just as much as the users (besides me, I probably do sound pretty angry) who you have just criticized, so you really are not one to point fingers.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see no great outcry ~~and no DRV~~ about that article ~~- if you believe his close was wrong, bring it here or hold your tongue.~~ And please stop accusing him of being hostile - I see nothing hostile in anything he has said, in fact he has been quite coivil given you are questioning the validity of his opinion - an opinion any qikipediais encouraged to express if they wish. Viridae ^Talk 10:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC) Edit: Found the DRV in which the community upheald the deletion despite the percieved COI. Viridae ^Talk 11:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse closure, the title of the article itself was not NPOV. I find no fault with the closing admin's reasoning. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 08:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn per Leifern, 6SJ7, IronDuke, Moshe. The process is seriously broken if such creative accounting is allowed. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn - A consensus doesn't have to be perfect, but this is far too rough in my opinion. I counted 45/46 keeps and 52 deletes, not including merges. Demon attempted to justify the decision as policy-based. My problem with his closure is that demon's own interpretation of policy should not be given a trump card over 40-50 dissenting interpretations with similar merit. To say the least, deleting the article on the grounds of WP:N and/or WP:NOR utilizes a highly contentious interpretation and application of policy. WP:VOTE aside, I think demon's actions cross the line of permissible administrator intervention. --xDanielx^Talk 08:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong endorse deletion, well-reasoned closure of a difficult to interpret AFD. Sufficient time had passed, and especially note ChrisO's citation of Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus. As far as I can tell, those arguing to overturn are spending more time attacking closing admins in AFDs like these because they didn't get their way than looking for an actual policy/guideline-based reason for overturning. Needless to say, the article was an originally researched synthesis, and very few keep arguments actually addressed that issue. --Coredesat 08:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Coredesat, do you really think WP:SYN has an uncontentious application to the article in question? Frankly, I think the ambiguity of the policy makes it near-useless in its present form. If I make a list of Bridges Longer than X Feet based on a series of reports on the length of individual bridges, does that constitute unacceptable synthesis of information? What about collecting a bunch of quotes comparing certain events to apartheid, and calling them "allegations of Chinese apartheid"? My own interpretation is (in a very small nutshell) that no original research is very distinct from no original thought, and original analysis is acceptable (and absolutely necessary) if it is not a factually contentious issue. I don't say that this interpretation is necessarily the correct one (as I think the heavy ambiguity prevents there from being a correct interpretation), but can we at least agree that the policy-based reasons for deletion were contentious? --xDanielx^Talk 09:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. I would have closed it as delete, as well. The article was a synthesis, advancing a certain position, and this claim was not satisfactorily refuted, once, within the entire deletion discussion. Saying "no it's not!" doesn't really cut it outside of the playground. Neil ╦ 08:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse The AfD closed with an unusually detailed comment. AfD is not a vote, if consensus is to allow violation of WP:SYN then the closer should disregard that consensus and enforce policy. Far too often that doesn't happen, fortunately this AfD was an exception to that. MartinDK 09:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, reasonable close, and any DRV that starts with personal attacks against the closer obviously doesn't have much of an argument. >Radiant< 09:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Considering the arguments, and not merely the raw number of comments, this seems to be a quite reasonable close as noted by Neil, MartinDK, &c. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn good-faith but erroneous closure. WP:DGFA#Deciding whether to delete includes four criteria, of which three are questionable in this case. Firstly, 'Whether consensus has been achieved by determining a "rough consensus"'. As 6SJ7 and xDanielX have noted, there is little evidence of consensus to delete. Secondly, 'Use common sense and respect the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants.' Yet the judgment and feelings of numerous participants were completely overlooked. Thirdly, 'When in doubt, don't delete.' There was doubt, as evidenced by the lengthy debates over the interpretation of policy that was eventually used to close. Pages should obviously be deleted on grounds of policy when there is no serious dispute about the application of that policy, but was this such a situation? I'm not convinced. Jakew 11:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can tell, all those who endorse the closure do so because they agree with one interpretation of the article. The implication of this can only be that we do away with ADF altogether and simply find an admin who will listen to the arguments and accusations and make a ruling. What's the point of collecting views if a clearly controversial issue can be characterized as a no-brainer by the first admin who jumps in to end the discussion? (And the second one who "endorses" it on the page after it's been closed?) Leifern
Endorse. This is about as frivolous a call for review as can be imagined. The closing admin waited the appropriate time, closely read the debate, carefully measured opinions and passions against the weight of policy, and made a judicious call, dotting every i and crossing every t. His closure was then immediately endorsed by another admin who was trying to do exactly the same thing and ran into an edit conflict with him. DRVs are not supposed to be forums for a second chance at the dice with the rhetorical stakes doubled. Move on, folks.--G-Dett 12:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Closure as the same ol' gang is trying to get their same ol' POV way yet again. The article was a synthesized WP:OR pile of bunk, a point that the keepers were unable to satisfactorily counter-argue against, instead preferring the strawman WP:ALLORNOTHING responses. The strength of argument clearly lay with the delete votes. Tarc 13:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn It is clear that there was absolutely no consensus before closing. If the admin who closed is one who identifies himself/herself as someone who is generally in favor of deletion of things on Wikipedia, as noted above, then probably this rather complex case wasn't the best for him/her to put his/her stamp on. We need a more thoughtful approach to this AFD. The article should be restored and given more of a chance. Bigglove 13:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion - per general principle: all "allegations of" articles are crap. Also, good closure in this particular case. ^demon used his brain. Moreschi ^Talk 13:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion - You're only ever doing something right on Wikipedia when half a dozen people make more noise than a defective set of bagpipes. What do I see above, that's right, more noise than a defective set of bagpipes, and comically, people trying to rewrite the role of an administrator on Wikipedia to suit their own agendas. Funny, but tragic. Nick 13:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment/Question The closure was clearly that WP:NOR was violated by being a synthesis to make a point. To get that overturned at deletion review, clear and convincing evidence that that statement is false is needed. I look at the nomination, and no such claim is made. I also was looking at the AFD as an admin and considering closing at the very time that ^demon closed it. I had decided to wait until yesterday evening when I would have time to read the discussion one more time to see if there was any real evidence that secondary sources had discussed allegations of apartheid in China (that had been made elsewhere), as opposed merely somebody finding various places where activists had used the word "apartheid". Unless someone can point out a source that was 1) actually used in the article, 2) mentioned in the AFD, or 3) is being raised here and now for the first time and that is a reliable secondary source describing the allegations, there really is no choice other than endorsing the deletion. So, is there such a source? GRBerry 13:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 61: / Line 61: @@
 *'''Endorse deletion''' - per general principle: all "allegations of" articles are crap. Also, good closure in this particular case. ^demon used his brain. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[User talk:Moreschi|Talk]]</sup> 13:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 *'''Endorse deletion''' - You're only ever doing something right on Wikipedia when half a dozen people make more noise than a defective set of bagpipes. What do I see above, that's right, more noise than a defective set of bagpipes, and comically, people trying to rewrite the role of an administrator on Wikipedia to suit their own agendas. Funny, but tragic. [[User:Nick|Nick]] 13:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Comment/Question''' The closure was clearly that [[WP:NOR]] was violated by being a synthesis to make a point.  To get that overturned at deletion review, clear and convincing evidence that that statement is false is needed.  I look at the nomination, and no such claim is made.  I also was looking at the AFD as an admin and considering closing at the very time that ^demon closed it.  I had decided to wait until yesterday evening when I would have time to read the discussion one more time to see if there was any real evidence that secondary sources had discussed allegations of apartheid in China (that had been made elsewhere), as opposed merely somebody finding various places where activists had used the word "apartheid".  Unless someone can point out a source that was 1) actually used in the article, 2) mentioned in the AFD, or 3) is being raised here and now for the first time and that is a reliable secondary source describing the allegations, there really is no choice other than endorsing the deletion.  So, is there such a source?  [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 13:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)