Talk:Tom Clarke (Irish republican)

Name

Tom Clarke? Who in the world calls him Tom Clarke? I'm moving it to Thomas Clarke Dermo69

Unfortunately, this page was not on my Watchlist when the move was made last year. I believe the move was a mistake. The following books, most of which are listed in the bibliography of the Easter Rising article, all give the his names as “Tom Clarke” not “Thomas Clarke”:

• Max Caulfield, The Easter Rebellion, Dublin 1916
• Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: The Easter Rising
• Michael Foy and Brian Barton, The Easter Rising
• C Desmond Greaves The Life and Times of James Connolly
• Robert Kee, Ireland: A History
• Charles Townshend, Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion'
• Seán Mc Mahon, Rebel Ireland
• Annie Ryan, Witnesses: Inside the Easter Rising
• Kathleen Clarke, Revolutionary Woman
• Desmond Fitzgerald, Desmond’s Rising

The last three are especially important as they are the words of the people who actually knew and worked with this man. Kathleen Clarke was married to Tom, so she might be expected to know.
For these reasons, and because I am involved in an effort to improve the Easter Rising article, I propose to move this back to the original name. Scolaire 14:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed from Thomas Clarke (Irish republican) to Tom Clarke (Irish republican) as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 20:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Rank

Sorry, the very source cited in the footnote specifically says "he held no formal military rank." (p. 37) It goes on to say that he was "recognized by the garrison as one of its commanders", but that's with a lowercase "c" and is not a rank; he was merely a person of authority. I have seen no evidence that Clarke ever was a member of the Volunteers, or even that they had an official rank of "Commander". Ruth Dudley Edwards even notes that he "avoided taking military rank" (Patrick Pearse: Triumph of failure, p. 276). So I'm removing the rank of Commander and membership in the Volunteers (I'll add the latter back if there's any evidence he actually joined the organization). I'll leave the years as the years he was in the IRB. -R. fiend (talk) 22:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

"Though he held no formal military rank, Clarke, recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders, was active through out the week in the direction of the fight, and shared the fortunes of his comrad...The Proclamation of the republic must be regarded as the collective work of the signatories, members of the Provisional Government, all of them among the sixteen leaders later executed. Ruth Dudley Edwards even notes that he "avoided taking military rank", but dose not say he did not. In addition, he was the founding member of the military council. --Domer48 (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said "No formal military rank". So he did not hold the rank of "Commander", even though he may have "commanded" men. You're backing up my point here. He was a leader of the Rising, to be sure (no one is denying that) but he held no rank and was not an official member of the Volunteers. Show me a source that he was. -R. fiend (talk) 02:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

If you want to put him down as in the IRA, or the Army of the Irish Republic, you might have a case (with sources), but he was not a "Commander" in the Volunteers (nor the IRB, who had no "rank" of "Commander"). -R. fiend (talk) 02:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The references are there, don’t disrupt wiki to make a WP:POINT. --Domer48 (talk) 10:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

“The acronym the Irish Republican Army was first used in 1867 to describe the ill-fated group of Fenian’s who invaded Canada in 1867. It was used again in 1916 to describe the Irish Citizen Army and Irish Volunteers who seized and held the centre of Dublin in the Easter Rising. In 1919 the Irish Volunteers adopted the name, the Irish Republican Army....Commandant James Connelly was cheered when he told them from now on there was no Irish Citizen Army and no Irish Volunteers. They were the Irish Republican Army. He gave the order to charge the GPO.” (The Volunteer: Uniforms, Weapons and History of the Irish Republican Army 1913-1997, by James Durney, Gaul House, Kildare, 2004) --Domer48 (talk) 10:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Add something relevant or nothing at all. Your own sources say Clarke held no rank. You have not demonstrated that Clarke was ever even a member of the Volunteers. Now you come here with irrelevant info on the IRA, an organization which isn't even mentioned in the goddamn article. Your consistent misinterpretation of simple text is making me question everything you add to Wikipedia. Show me a source which (specifically) states that Clarke held any rank (let alone the apparently non-existent rank of "Commander") in the Volunteers or quit adding it. -R. fiend (talk) 14:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

"Though he held no formal military rank, Clarke, recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders--Domer48 (talk) 14:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Commander is not a rank. If it said "position" and you put "leader" and left him out of the Volunteers you'd probably have a point. But he was not a Volunteer and he held no rank. The text is quite clear on this. -R. fiend (talk) 14:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

He was a founding member of the military council. BigDunc (talk) 14:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I KNOW. But how does being a member of the IRB Military Council make him a "Commander" in the Volunteers? That's why these templates are dumb, they don't allow for any change. He held no rank, though he did have several positions (signatory of the Proclamation, Treasurer of the IRB, founder of the Military Council, "leader" of the Rising, member of both the Supreme Council and the Executive Committee of the IRB) that might warrant inclusion under a heading other than "rank". He did not join the Volunteers. Putting him down as a member of the IRA is probably the closest anyone will get. But he did not hold a rank. He commanded men, but that does not give him the rank "Commander" any more than I get that rank for telling people what to do. Reference it with something that says he held that rank or quit adding it.

As for Padraig's comments below, that's basically true. Put him down as IRA or Army of the Irish Republic, but not the Volunteers. Then find source that he held the military rank of Commander in that army, and not that he was just considered a leader who "commanded" men because he was perceived as being in a position of authority. -R. fiend (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

While its true Tom Clarke held no rank in the Volunteers he was a member of the leadership of the IRB, but once the Rising started he was considered a Commander of the Army of the Republic when the members of the ICA, Irish Volunteers and Irish National Rifles involved in the rising came together to form the Army of the Republic or IRA. Clarkes reason for not accepting rank in the Volunteers prior to that was so as not to alert the authorities of the IRBs intentions.--Padraig (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The title of info box is "Allegiance." That he was behind their formation means it should be reflected in the info box. --Domer48 (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Is Allegiance not a loyalty to a nation, organisation, or cause. Tell me how this does not apply to him. BigDunc (talk) 16:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Then his allegiance should be Irish Republic, as his allegiance was to that, not to the Volunteers (an organization whose official aim was Home Rule). Additionally, he was not behind the creation of the Volunteers. Members of the IRB were, but not him. In any case, he did not hold the rank of "Commander" (a rank which is generally not associated with the army anyway). Provide a reference for an actual rank he officially held, don't just say he "commanded" people. -R. fiend (talk) 17:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Dunc, your talking to a wall, don't waste anymore time on them. --Domer48 (talk) 17:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It is pathetic to see the amount of bickering over something that is otherwise so simple. Do the people claiming that Tom Clarke held the rank of "Commander" not know the difference in meaning between capitalised uncapitalised nouns? There is nothing wrong with Domer48's source; the problem is that he is misreading it. If Tom Clarke held the rank of Commander, then the first letter of that word would be in capital letters in that extract. But it isn't. While the term Commander-in-Chief was used, "Commander" was not a rank in the IRB at the time of the 1916 rising (and please don't ask me to provide a source proving that something doesn't exist!).--Damac (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Your right Damac, he was a Commander in the Volunteers. --Domer48 (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, do you even read what other people write before you respond? -R. fiend (talk) 18:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)