Talk:Anti-Polish sentiment/Archive 2

Discussions in Polish

I moved here the segments of discussion conducted in Polish, to make the page easier to read for users who don't know the language. This might introduce some discontinuities.

Basic problem with article title

There is a fundamental problem with this article: anti-Polonism (or antipolonism) is not an English word, it does not exist in the English language at present. Yes, there is a Polish term antypolonizm and some Poles have tried to translate it to English, but the attempts have been few so far. It is not the job of Wikipedia to coin new English words, even if we think they might be useful. The title of the article must be changed (to, for example, Prejudice against Poles), or else this issue must be somehow addressed in the article. I added a "controversial" tag until this is resolved. Balcer 18:21, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hello fellow users, Polish-speaking Wikipedians. Can I humbly request that posts here be in English if possible, for the benefit of fully allowing us Anglophones in on the discussion.--Pharos 18:51, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would, but my English is very bad, thats why i am writting in Polish - if im working on articles i use always a dictionary, but its a lot of work. Sorry for that :)--Emax 19:02, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, and don't worry about your English, it's much better than my Polish :):)--Pharos 19:14, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:)--Emax 21:04, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

OK, will do from now. Just translating above quickly. Emax points out that Naczelnik and Koniuszy, both Polish words, are in Wikipedia. To which I replied that in that case we should move this article to Antypolonizm and explain that it is a Polish term.

Then Emax shows a link to an article by Lucas which shows the term is in the use. I do not dispute that the term is used from time to time, but its use is extremely rare. Thus a search on LexisNexis of major newspapers and magazines in English shows that the word "antipolonism" has been used 0 times in the last 10 years, while the word "anti-Polonism" 2 times (in both cases in letters to the Editor written by Poles). I hope this demonstrates how rare this word is. Needless to say, the word is not listed in any online English dictionaries I could find. Balcer 19:05, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for the translation, Balcer, your arguement for Prejudice against Poles makes quite good sense to me. There is no need in Wikipedia to invent new English words.--Pharos 19:33, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

So, the article itself is not controversial, only the title is. Halibutt 19:36, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

On the second thought: while I agree with your arguments, I believe we'd have to come up with some other name, especially since it is to describe not only the purely psychological or sociological phenomenon of anxiety or prejudice against Poles, but also the effects of such phenomenon - both direct (Polish jokes) and indirect (extermination of Poles during WWII). Halibutt 19:39, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we need 2 separate articles: Genocide against Poles during WWII and Prejudice against Poles. To me it is somewhat ridiculous to lump together genocidal policies by Nazi Germany and USSR during WWII one the one hand, and today's "Polish jokes" and unfortunate newspaper references to Polish camps on the other. These are phenomena on a completely different scale. Balcer 22:37, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

All right, I took out the "controversial" template, and added a paragraph of explanation incorporating some of the material in this discussion. Much more work remains to be done on this article. I still like the idea of splitting up into:

• Genocide against Poles - discussing historical large-scale persecution of Poles
• Prejudice against Poles - discussing present, distinctly less harmful stereotypes and prejudices, and explaining why they are incorrect.

Balcer 00:58, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Zwroc uwage ze ktos kto stworzyl artykul Anti-Slavism stworzyl go glownie z przyczyny II WS.

No wiec..

Punk nr 2. Czym byla glowna przyczyna cierpienia Polakow podczas 2 wojny swiatowej - nienawisc Niemcow wobec Polakow, chcieli "lebensraumu" zamieszkalego przez Polakow. Wpierw wytepic inteligecje (by robaczki nie mialy krolowej, ktora nimi kieruje), zrobic z Polakow tania sile robocza (pracuja za friko, malo jedza), a pozniej wybic reszte jak karaluchy, ktore nieprzyjemnie szwedaja sie po domowej kuchni.

Dlaczego nie chcieli wybic Francuzow czy Dunczykow? Bo Polak w ich oczach byl tylko untermensch, kultura polska nic nie warta, zycie Polaka tyle warte co krowy (z tym ze zabita krowe mozna zjesc, a zabitego Polaka mozna jedynie (w razie czego) przerobic na mydlo).

Czym jest nienawisc do Polakow i polskiej kultury? Antypolonizmem :)

Mozna oczywiscie argumentowac, ze plany wyniszczenia Polakow byly celem politycznym nie rasistowskim - ale wtedy to samo mozna by bylo powiedziec o planach calkowitego wyniszczenia Zydow. (wiec ani w artykule o antypolonizmie nie mozna by bylo wstawic historii morderstw ani w artykule dotyczacego antysemityzmu)

Nienawisc do kogos prowadzi do przemocy. Ci sami ludzie ktorzy opowiadaja sobie kawaly o Polakach, skopali np. jakiegos malolata ze Zgorzelca, ktory poszedl na zakupy do Gorlitz. Ci sami ludzie ktorzy opowiadaja kawaly i nienawidza obcokrajowcow palili domy azylantow w Rostock. Ci sami ludzie ktorzy nazywaja Turkow smierdziuchami, spalili w Solingen turecka rodzine w domku jednorodzinnym - podpalajac dom koktailem molotowa (najmlodszy uczestniacy Niemiec, mial jak dobrze pamietam, 17 lat).

Holocaust Zydow w Niemczech zaczal sie od propagowania nienawisci do Zydow, pozniej bojkotowanie sklepow, Kristallnacht i na koniec komory.

Antypolonizm nie zaczal sie na 2 WS, zaczal sie juz w czasie zaborow. Kulturkampf itd. Byl czas w ktorym urzednik polski - w rosyjskim zaborze - mowiac "oficjalnie" po polsku, mogl dostac do 10 lat wiezienia. Czytalem kiedys opowiesci Skladowskiej, ktora opowiadala o kontrolach rosyjskich urzednikow w szkolach. Nauczyciele Polacy chowali wszystko co by mialo wspolnego z Polska przed taka kotrola, dzieciakom mowiono by bron boze nie odezwaly sie po Polsku.

Co do zdjec mordowanych Polakow i kawalow - masz racje. Dlatego poroponowalem by ten artykul troche jeszcze rozszerzyc, a stworzyc dwa odzielne. Jeden o kawalach itd, a drugi ktory opowie o zaborach, morderstwach itd.

Mysle ze popelniasz pewien blad w myslowy. Antypolonizm nie stoji w zadnej konkurencji z antysemityzmem. Tylko radykaly z jednej i drugiej strony probuja przyciagnac nieszczescia 2 WS dla siebie, by wykorzystac je jako argument polityczny w swoich machlojkach.

Historia antypolonizmu nie jest spopularyzowana, dlatego nawet tu na wikipedii niektorzy beszczelnie wyzywaja Polakow od nacjonalistow. Ostatnio jeden z niemieckich (Chris_73) administratorow najechal na Polakow - nie sadze by w ten sam sposob odwazyl sie najechac na Zydow. Dlaczego? Bo jest swiadomy tego co wyczynili jego ziomkowie dla Zydow, a nie jest swiadomy czego dla Polakow.

No i co do ostatniego Twojego argumentu, ze okreslenie jest uzywane przez nacjonalistow. Czy Ministerstwo spraw zagranicznych jest kierowane przez nacjonalistow? Czy Lucas David jest nacjonalista? Czy Gazeta Wyborcza lub Rzeczpospolita to gazety propagujace nacjinalizm?

Szukasz dziury w calym :)--Emax 12:32, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Neologisms

It is indeed a good principle that a new word should not be invented when an old one will do. But what alternatives are there to "anti-Polonism" or "Polonophobia"? And why should Poles be left out of a parade that already includes "Anglophobia," "Anglophilia," "Francophobia," "Francophilia," "Germanophobia," "Germanophilia," "Russophobia," "Russophilia," "Sinophobia," "Sinophilia," etc.? And if there can be an "anti-Semitism" (actually a misnomer: Arabs are Semites too!), then why not an "anti-Polonism"? Why should Poles be more modest--or less demanding of their legitimate martyrological rights? Ultimately the answer is not to ban words, but to work diligently so that in the future none of these words will any longer be necessary. Logologist 06:52, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PLEASE KEEP THE DISCUSSION ON PUBLIC TALK PAGES IN ENGLISH. I seem to lean more towards Emax POV here, but I do agree that this article would benefit from a clear sectioning into:

• Anti-Polonism pre 1918: things like germanization, russification, Polish foreign relations (impact of Dymitriads on Polish-Russian attitude, etc.)
• AP 1919-1939: Polish-Ukrainian War, Treaty of Riga and P-Ukrainian relations, first part of the Western Betrayal, P-Lithuanian conflict over Wilno, P-Czech conflict over Silesia, Nazi propaganda against Slavs
• IIWW: Nazi and Soviet attrocities, begining of Western Allies denial,
• AP after IIWW - attitude towards Polish emmigrants to US and Western Europe, merging of Anti-Semitism and Nazis with Poland image, current 'Polish concentration camps' phrase, etc. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:20, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A Polish-American view of the question

I recommend an online 1996 article, "Promoting Goodwill between Jewish and Polish People: the Obstacle of the Kielce Pogrom of July 4, 1946," by the respected Polish-American scholar Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, author of the book, Jews in Poland: the Rise of Jews as a Nation from Congressus Judaicus in Poland to the Knesset in Israel. The whole article is worth reading. A very germane remark is that:

"On the flip side of the coin bearing the image of anti-Semitism is the image of anti-Polonism. The coin of anti-Semitism cannot be melted down and destroyed without also melting down and destroying anti-Polonism."

Pogonowski observes that tendentious "students of the Holocaust [have] certainly [been taught] how anti-Semitism produced six million Jewish deaths in the Holocaust [but] apparently they [have] not also learn[ed] how anti-Polonism produced three million Polish gentile deaths during the occupation--the Polish aspect of the Holocaust."

Few things could better illustrate than this article the intimate and insidious connection between hostile propaganda and outright genocide--whether these be directed against Jews, Poles, Armenians, Gypsies, American Indians or any other people. (And yet it is only one chosen people that is deemed worthy of its own exclusive Holocaust Museum.) Logologist 08:42, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reasons

The problem with this article is its concentration on enumeration of wrongdoings. While there should be place for it I think that the reader should be also informed about reasons behind it. Of course we know of Mein Kampf that coined Lebensraum term but are there any signifaicant theories how it sprung into Hitler's mind? OK, Drang nach Osten, germanization, Bismarck's derision... but why? Similarly, I have not been able to find a consistent explanation of Polish jokes besides hints that it was a recent minority related tensions and after peak in 70s it nearly faded now. Is it if we have open laughter at You forgot Poland?

IIRC, Davies mentioned something about European peoples, that it is common to look down on eastern neighbours. Perhaps it could be a lead to broader issues. Forseti 13:13, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good point. This definetly needs to be adressed. We need why? alongside what? and who?. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:31, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reasons for move to Hostility towards Poles

Clearly this article is a work in progress and much remains to be done. As anyone can see from this discussion, there is a controversy about the article title 'anti-polonism.

I have decided to move the article to Hostility towards Poles, after discussion with User:Piotrus, an esteemed Wikipedian who agrees the term anti-polonism is inappropriate.

Here is my justification.

1. Laying aside all the controversial issues about the implications of the term anti-polonism, there remains the basic fact: The term's use in English has been extremely rare. LexisNexis shows that the word has been used only twice (!) in all prominent dailies and magazines in English in the past 10 years. Pointing to a few scattered examples of its use here and there found through Google searches does not change this basic reality.

2. As is clear from this discussion, some users would like the term anti-polonism to be more prominent. However, I think it is clear that it is not the job of Wikipedia to promote the use of new words. Instead, article titles should follow common usage and be clearly understandable, as far as possible.

3. Let's face it, the term anti-polonism has not found acceptance in the English-speaking world. One might dislike this, but it is a fact. The job of Wikipedia is to describe the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.

4. I did leave a one paragraph discussion in the article addressing the anti-polonism issue, so if someone is searching for that word, they will find it.

Wszystkie Twoje argumenty padly podczas dyskusji zemna a jednak przeniosles artykul. Tak sie nie robi.--Emax 18:59, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Przeniosłem po dyskusji z User:Piotrus. Proszę pisz tutaj po angielsku, aby inni mogli brać udział w dyskusji.Balcer 19:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is no need to moving the article, the term "anti-polonism" is used by foreign writers like Lucas David, by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Poland, by Polish newspapers like Gazeta Wyborcza or Rzeczpospolita etc.--Emax 19:10, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Clearly what matters is usage in English. Usage in Polish newspapers is not relevant to this discussion. You keep mentioning the one reference to the use of the word by David Lucas. This is not enough qualify the word as being in common English usage. Let me illustrate this via a search on Google Scholar

• antipolonism, or anti-Polonism - zero hits

Now just for the sake of comparison:

• antisemitism - 1,450 hits
• anglophobia - 75 hits Balcer 19:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article explain the meaning of the term "Anti-Polonism". There is no need to explain the meaning of "Hostility towards Poles", because everyone know what that mean. Anti-polonism is used in English history books. One reference of Richard C. Lucas is enough, i dont want waste my time and search another, only because You dont like the term "Anti-Polonism".--Emax 20:41, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

And BTW if an English reader see the term "Anti-Pololonism" in Richard C. Lucas or other english writer books, and dont know what the term mean - he can find the info about it on wikipedia. Thats for are encyclopedias.--Emax 21:11, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Why do you not move Bushism to Bush says stupid thigs ? :) This term was invented just for fun - not to compare with anti-polonism which cost milions of humans lifes, and not only in the 2 WW but also during the partions of Poland, when hundred of tausends Poles were deported to Siberia and whole generations could not learning Polish in the school, because it was forbidded by the occupation powers. You could go to the prision for 10 years if you would spoke Polish as civil servant in your own (but occupied) coutry. Dont also forget the kulturkampf.--Emax 22:03, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I hate wasting time on trivial matters - and this matter is trivial. Both of you are great contributirs, and I think you should use your time on doing constructive things, not arguing about this. Anti-polonism is very rare - but it was not invented on Wiki. Descriptive name is much more common, but there are many possible variants, so we would need lots of redirects. It is quite a 50/50 case. I suggest we drop the name matter entirely now - let's say, we (well, you two :D) agree to disagree, and we leave the article here based on the fact that it was created here in the first place. Now, let's work on expanding the stub sections or doing some other cosntructive stuff instead of arguing the point I doubt any of you is going to change your mind. OK? If you both agree, let's move this to archive as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:07, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You are right, i already said that the discussion is 10 times longer than the article :)--Emax 23:15, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I am willing to go with Piotrus' suggestion for the time being. Still I would not be so hasty to dismiss this dispute as trivial because, in some cases, even single words do matter (otherwise, why would we have written so much :)). Anyway, the discussion is available for reference, so I guess anyone interested in the subject will consult it and judge the matter for themselves. Balcer 23:36, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'll vote to delete the term "anti-Polonism" (and "Polonophobia") from Wikipedia--provided we also delete "anti-Semitism." If you need more than "one" Anglophone author who has used "anti-Polonism," please see "A Polish-American view of the question," above, on this page. Anti-Polonism has been and remains a burden on the Polish psyche; whether as much as anti-Semitism on the Jewish, is a question at most of degree. One difference may be that, till recently, Poles have been less willing to advertise their own sufferings--and probably have been less aware of how unjustly they are portrayed in some quarters. Perhaps you will recall the attempts in recent years to prevent Poles bringing attention to their own losses at Auschwitz, lest it break the Semites' "monopoly" in the eyes of the world. Had World War II gone differently--which it might well have, but for the Poles' gift to the Allies of Enigma decryption--we may rest assured that the Slavs would have been next on the Nazis' agenda of total genocide. Logologist 07:23, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I note that the (relative) number of Google search engine "hits" is cited above as "evidence" of whether things such as "anti-Polonism" exist. This is not a valid measure, i.e. the number of "hits" do not necessarily have a bearing on whether something exists or is true. For example, there are many "hits" for terms such as "Polish concentration camps" and "Polish death camps", however their existence is disputed within this very Wikipedia entry! As another example, I have just looked for the exact phrase "Elvis is alive" and obtained over 30,000 "hits"... whereas, in contrast, the exact phrase "Elvis is dead" gives only just over 20,000 "hits"!

Further, as terms such as "anti-Polonism" are being discussed, one can argue that such phrases exist de facto.

Shouldn't Wikipedia be at the leading edge of dictionary definitions for words?

Perhaps a way forward may be for this "anti-Polonism" entry to remain simply giving a "dictionary" definition of the term, i.e. the first two paragraphs of the existing entry, say, with a clear comment that the phrases are disputed and/or not widely used and/or accepted. At the same time, provide a link to an entry entitled in a discripive manner, such as "Hostility towards Poles" where the main body of this existing article may be contained?

This article should be deleted

I believe that the article is mainly intended to advance a biased point of view, to victimize one nation at the expense of others and so to disrupt normal wikifunctioning. In the past, it has been a major source of revert wars. No documents have been presented to back up the allegations of deportation of thousands of Poles to Siberia by the tsarist authorities. When a couple of Poles appear in the fake trial staged by the Communist government of Poland, it is not the mark of "Soviet atrocities to the Poles". The like trials were staged by Stalin on Russians, Ukrainains, Jews, Georgians, etc, etc. No mention is made of the fact that the Soviet soldiers saved the Poles from the total extermination by the Nazis. No other nation suffered so much losses from the WWII as Russia did, and yet there is no reason to flood "Russophobia" page with horrific pages of mass murders. The background of so-called anti-Polonism (e.g., repeated attempts of the Poles to convert Russia to Roman Catholicism) hasn't been mentioned at all. There is nothing good when one nation accuses every other nation of trying to annihilate it. This would lead to appearance of "Russophobia", "Turkophobia", "Anti-Balticism", "Hostile attitude towards Armenians", and the like articles that would eventually turn Wiki into a mess. Therefore I will list this disruptive article in the "votes for deletion" page. --Pierre Aronax 09:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Mass deportation of Poles to Siberia did happen in the past, both in 19th century and in 20th century. While I agree that such articles should be as balanced as possible, I don't think that a "possible threat to wikipedia" is enough to list this article for deletion. Also, take note that you only added the rfd tag, but did not list the page itself for deletion. I'm thinking of removing the tag. Halibutt 09:24, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Of course some of what User:Pierre Aronax is writing above is historically inaccurate nonsense. Please look at Katyn Massacre before writing that "Soviet atrocities to the Poles"" consisted only of a fake show trial.

Still, I am beginning to lean towards the view that this article should be deleted. It is simply too provocative (I tried unsuccessfully to make at least the title more neutral), and indeed it will be a source of constant revert wars and POW pushing. Furthermore I worry that the article will attract rabid nationalists and antisemites who want to prove the supposed equivalency of antisemitism and antipolonism (for examples, see some comments in this discussion). I see no reason why most of the issues this article is trying to address cannot be discussed somewhere else (appropriate sections in History of Poland etc.) Balcer 09:38, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Balcer that the wording of the article is too strong and peremptory. Perhaps it would have been a better idea to discuss particular manifestations of Polonophobia and Russophobia in separate articles on Dymitriads, Katyn Massacre, Warsaw Uprising and so on. Ghirlandajo 09:55, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please, wait with all this deletion talking. This is a very young article and still unformed. Also, there is multinational forum of editors so I think that eventually more toned wording can be worked out. On the other hand I agree that present shape of article is unacceptable. Polish-speaking people, please look at [1], topmost definition. Yes, I know that polonica.net is page of anti-semites and national radicals but said definition (supposedly from Gutenberg Printhouse encyclopedia, 1997) is much more coherent and exhaustive than our effort here and it would be a shame to us if we'd be unable to produce similarly exhaustive article, hopefully more NPOV. Unless we present some historical context and reasons behind the situation we'd have only kind of whining and we really shouldn't be surprised that the article would be attacked both on grounds of its little value and as part of various edit wars such as that of Steinbach Wars series. Forseti 12:02, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article should be deleted/this article should be renamed - its looks for me, that several people are not interested telling the story about crimes againts Poles, but try to do everything to hide it. This people should be ashamed.--Emax 13:33, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

This is a controversial topic, but this is no reason for a deletion, especially when suggested by a user (Pierre Aronax) who is apparently fairly ignorant in that matter. Of course, causes for antipolonism should be listed. Some were caused by Poles themsevles (Dimitriads, Polish-Ukrainian War, etc.), many others were not (Nazism, stalinism). The article is incomplete. Again, not a reason for deteltion but for an expantion. And note: unless sb can provide arguments for the first-page NPOV tag, it should be removed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:36, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For me at least it is difficult to contribute to an article under such a controversial title, as any such contribution could be taken as an implicit endorsement of it. Personally I want nothing to do with the project that some people have of developing the notion of anti-Polonism as a phenomenon of the same magnitude and importance as anti-Semitism. Could we at least add some kind of a tag which would indicate that the article title is disputed? We have pages and pages of discussion on this topic by now. Balcer 20:39, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"anti-Polonism as a phenomenon of the same magnitude and importance as anti-Semitism." - This article is about anti-polonism and has nothing to do with anti-semitism (only that, that both is racism). Is there something like a race? Which nation lost more humens lifes become the first price...? Why do you start again the discussion about the title? As Piotrus said , is that so importent? And one more time... This article explain the meaning of the term "anti-polonism". So the title cant be disputed.--Emax 21:11, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

No Emax, the article as it stands is about the persecution and genocide of Poles in various periods of history, and that can be adequately described by titles other than anti-polonism. If you want to have a definition of anti-Polonism, the place for it would be an entry in the Wiktionary. Balcer 21:33, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"the article as it stands is about the persecution and genocide of Poles in various periods of history" - yes, they were murdered because of their nationality - and thats anti-polonism. And You already become the evidence, that the term is used in english history books (not in dictionaries). And BTW your statement that "antipolonism have not the same magnitude and importance as anti-Semitism" - sounding a little bit like "Polish lives were not of the same importance like Jewish"..--Emax 21:48, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Clearly I am saying nothing of the sort, and I find the implication highly offensive. Balcer 21:56, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are many forms of racism, but no one of them is more or less important. Racism is not a contest--Emax 22:14, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Idea

Since there are some people here who would like this article to be deleted because of the name, I have a proposal, I hope a decent one. How about leaving this article here, as a short explanation of what the term refers to and, perhaps, a notice that the term is more popular among historians than among linguists. At the same time we could move the rest of topics, including the examples, to some more obscure titles, similar to Organised persecution of ethnic Germans, Expulsion of Germans after World War II and so on. We'd have Expulsion of Poles in 19th century (not to divide it onto 3 or 4 different articles), Expulsion of Poles after World War II, Organised persecution of ethnic Poles and so on. We could also prepare a small tag that would link all the articles in the project together. What do you say, gentlemen? Halibutt 08:04, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. It will definitely make our job much more manageable and avoid completely unnecessary controversy over loaded terms. Most importantly, it will make the article titles transparent to non-Polish readers of Wikipedia. Balcer 08:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Support. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:33, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Poroponowalem takie rozwiazanie juz prawie na samym poczatku dyskusji [2] :), popieram--Emax 12:50, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

I support this useful and productive approach.--Pharos 14:05, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Since, there seems to be a concensus developing, let's formalise it. Here is my list of articles we could create. Most material from current anti-Polonism article could go there. Please comment, add/subtract titles etc.

• Organised persecution of Poles in the 19th century (covers the Partitions period, up to 1914)
• Organised persecution of Poles in the Soviet Union (whole 1918-1991 period, I guess)
• Organised persecution of Poles during WWII (obviously 1939-1945, with some extensions, could be split into subarticles also).
• Expulsion of Poles after World War II (self-explanatory)
• Modern prejudices against Poles ("polish death camps" slurs, "polish jokes" etc.)

We could change Poles to ethnic Poles in some of these of course, but I do not think that's necessary. Balcer 19:56, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

Chcialbym tu przedstawic wypowiedz Balcera, za kogo on uwaza uzytkownikow ktorzy brali udzial w budowaniu tego artykulu (mnie w najmniejszym stopniu bo dodalem tylko zdjecia) :) [3] "just for the record" - by wiedziec komu mozna ufac, a kto zaufania godny nie jest :)--Emax 17:33, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Here is what I actually wrote to User:172:

If you have a minute, please take a look at the article Anti-Polonism. Based on your recent involvement on the Polish-Soviet War article, I thought you might find it interesting, as it involves some of the same people and similar problems with unreasonable POV. Balcer 10:16, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As you can see, there is no insult towards anybody here, as Emax seems to maliciously imply, unless he finds the word unreasonable insulting.

I am still puzzled by Emax's hostility towards user User:172. I really just don't understand it. His involvement with Polish-Soviet War did, after all, contribute usefully to that article and helped in achieving a reasonable compromise and lead to its general improvement. I thought his point of view would have been useful here.

For your information, Emax, that is the whole idea of Wikipedia: combining different points of view to achieve NPOV. Instead, your aim seems to be to turn some articles on Wikipedia into restricted areas, where only people who can be "trusted" (your words) should be allowed to contribute (and others mercilessly reverted and insulted).

Anyway, after what you wrote here [4] we have nothing more to talk about. Paradoxically, after some reflection, I realised that coming from you, the accusation that I am not a Pole is not an insult, rather a badge of pride. Balcer 18:41, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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Historia w skrocie

• 1)Balcer staje na glowie by storpetowac artykul, wymysla co chwile nowe argumenty.
• 2)Balcer stara sie "przekabacic" Piotrusia na priv, by przeniesc artykul.
• 3)Balcer poczul pewne wsparcie ze strony Piotrusia, i poprostu sobie przeniosl artykul
• 4)Balcer lapie sie ostatniej deski ratunku i haniebnie porownuje artykul z proba zrownania cierpien Polakow z Zydami
• 5)Balcer calkowicie rozpaczony leci do rosyjskiego admina, ktory lubi mieszac w polskich artykulach, wspomina tam o uzytkownikach z ktorymi owy admin mial wojenke na Polish-Soviet war, w nadziei ze wzbudzi jego zainteresowanie w torpedowaniu tego artykulu.

• Targowica, wstyd i hanba :)

"I am not a Pole is not an insult, rather a badge of pride" wiec prosze nie uzywaj polskiego jezyka, - w kontekscie ze brudzisz wlasne gniazdo, jest mi wstyd, bo ktos moze Cie wziasc za Polaka...--Emax 19:07, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

This article and related articles

In fact I dont see the necessecity of this article. You can create an article about a "...phobia" or "anti-...-ism" for every nationality you want. There are jokes about a lot of nations and also a lot of crimes that have been done against these or other nations. So, if you create an article about a phobia against one of these nations - and especially if this phobia is not widely seen or discussed - it's mainly a political and by that POV article - if you create such "phobia" articles. In my opinion this article is not necessary at all, since crimes against Poles should be mentioned in the article about Poland.

(No wikipedia-Account, sorry)

for benefit of others, I note comment made by user:129.13.186.1 --Pharos 21:46, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

To see such opinion from an user who add just after that this: "Anti-German is a hostile attitude against Germany and/or the Germans. There is also a political movement which calls itseld "Anti-German" and is described below." to the Anti-German article is very interesting :)--Emax 22:45, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)

Well, you may think that's 'interesting', but "anti-german" means at first to be against Germany or Germans. So, if there is a article with that name, that should be mentioned. I don't know what you think is 'interesting' about that. What do you think "anti-German" means, huh? In fact, an article about anti-Germanism in the way this article about "anti-Polonism" is would be possible, too. You could mention crimes like the expulsion and mass murder of millions of ethnic Germans after WWII the theft of German territory after WWI and WWII and the prejudices which occur today and so on. BUT: I would oppose an article about "Anti-Germanism" because of the same reasons I oppose the existence of this article. Still: user:129.13.186.1

So, now I created a wikipedia account, those two comments of 129.13.186.1 are made by me Deutschger (my user name may seem interesting to some :))

Evidently malicious changes

The changes made to lines 4 and 43 on February 23, 2005, are evidently malicious: in line 4, not only deleting an idea but completely reversing the meaning of the sentence; and in line 43, deleting information on a phenomenon admittedly from three decades ago, but certainly a "more recent" one than the prewar and wartime ones described earlier — and an important and pernicious historic episode. I suggest these (vandalistic?) changes be reversed. Logologist 04:19, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

VfD

This article is an admitted neologism, as well as an apparent attempt to incorporate Nazi attrocities against Poles, the Prussian (later, German), Austro-Hungarian and Russian (later, Soviet) occupation of Poland, ethnocentric denigration of Poles, and perhaps a few other gripes, together into a single article. What's here can mostly be incorporated into Polish September Campaign, Holocaust, History of Poland, and Ethnic slurs. Even after the cleanup by Jayjg, it remains absurdly POV. The rest of it needs to go, as it's little more than uncited WP:NOR and a magnet for POV-pushers. Tomer ^TALK July 4, 2005 21:31 (UTC)

Replied at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Anti-Polonism, where most of the discussion will likely take place. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 4 July 2005 22:02 (UTC)

More objections to "Anti-Polonism" at Category vfd

See Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Anti-Polonism for vote and the following opening reasoning IZAK 6 July 2005 05:28 (UTC) :

"See related present vote to delete the Anti-Polonism article at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Anti-Polonism for full reasoning why this redundant category should not have been created in the first place. IZAK 5 July 2005 09:08 (UTC) Additional information why this should be deleted: This category seems to assume, for example, that Poland was different to other countries invaded by Nazi Germany. The fact is, Germany invaded and occupied most countries in Europe (and North Africa) yet it was not because of "Anti-Frenchism", or "Anti-Danishism" or "Anti-Greekism" etc etc etc, rather, these were all acts of war, and Poland was no different as far as the Poles were concerned. In the case of the Jews it's a different story since Hitler wanted to carry out his "final solution" against them as Jews and not as Poles, or Frenchmen, Danes, or Greeks etc etc etc, thus to have Category:Holocaust as a sub-category of a pseudo-category such as this is both a fallacy of logic and revisionism and distortion of history. Furthermore a close look at the articles in this category reveals that basically 50% of them are Nazi-related articles and 50% are Communist-era related making it very clear that whoever placed them into this category wants to make the Poles appear as poor "victims" and to whitewash Polish co-operation with both its German and Russian occupiers, no different to countries such as Hungary, Romania, Italy, Vichy France, Norway, and others that basically accepted the German occupation and have historically never classed themselves as "victims" of "Anti-Polinism", or "Anti-Hungarianism", or "Anti-Frenchism" etc etc etc. Similarly, when Poland once ruled Lithuania and large chunks of Russia and Ukraine it was also not guilty of "Anti-Russianism" or "Anti-Lithuanism" because all this was considered part of the normal ebb and tide of history with its usual wars and subsequent times of peace. This category should be deleted because it is an insult to human intelligence. IZAK 6 July 2005 04:58 (UTC)"

This is untrue.Poles were classified as subhumans and were to be exterminated, furthermore the absurd accusation of Polish "cooperation" with Germany is totally false.Operations such Operation Tannenberg, Deporatations in Zamojszczyzna, or murder of Lwow profesors were part of anti-polish policy of German Reich. "All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." Heinrich Himmler In this link you have several points of program against Poles, Germanisation of children, deporations, murder, denial of education, destruction of elites etc: http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm And example:

The category of sub-human (Untermensch)  included Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, Serbs, etc.)  Gypsies and Jews.   TOP

"To avoid mistakes which might subsequently occur in the selection of subjects suitable for 'Germanization,' the RuSHA [The Race and Settlement Head Office] in 1942 distributed a pamphlet, The Sub-Human, to those responsible for that selection. 3,860,995 copies were printed in German alone and it was translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. It stated: The sub-human, that biologically seemingly complete similar creation of nature with hands, feet and a kind of brain, with eyes and a mouth, is nevertheless a completely different, dreadful creature. He is only a rough copy of a human being, with human-like facial traits but nonetheless morally and mentally lower than any animal. Within this creature there is a fearful chaos of wild, uninhibited passions, nameless destructiveness, the most primitive desires, the nakedest vulgarity. Sub-human, otherwise nothing. For all that bear a human face are not equal. Woe to him who forgets it." 1

Empty sections

Removed empty section titles: Anti-Polonism in America, Germany, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Anti-Polonism and Jews. Doesn't make sense to have them without content.--Ttyre 8 July 2005 13:19 (UTC)

I had already removed them once, but POV-pusher extraordinaire, Witkacy, put them back in. I decided to leave it alone at that point, because it makes the article look even more idiotic. Tomer ^TALK July 8, 2005 16:34 (UTC)