Talk:Paul Tillich

Many Thanks to the anonymous contributor who added the excellent section on Tillich's theology on 26 February 2005. --Blainster 20:55, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are the concepts of 'essence' and 'existence' juxtaposed?

Criticism section

I moved the paragraph disputing Tillichs work to a separate section. This article is about Tillich, not his opponents, and their views should not be at the head of his article. --Blainster 21:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

That's certainly fair. KHM03 22:03, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I am not competent to make alterations. I am not sure this is right: "Following a line similar to Kierkegaard and almost identical to that of Freud, Tillich says that in our most introspective moments we face the terror of our own nothingness." As far as I know "nothingness" was not something Kierkegaard talked about, though the word of course comes up in some twentieth century thinkers who are called existentialists. Actually I remember statement by Tillich in the History of Christian thought that he considered himself a 50/50 existentialist/essentialist.

The criticisms section, like most such sections in Wikipedia articles, does seem rather out of place. If there is going to be such a section it should surely contain more criticisms, a summary of the main criticism of Tillich's thinking (constructive and negative), rather than just the views of a couple of chaps in a book which doesn't seem to be a serious academic study. What is meant by "protestant christian thought"? Theological liberalism?! The link is directed to "liberal christianity" which covers very many sorts of views. CSMR 12:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

favor?

I have just added a new section to Judaism and Christianity on "love." It is just a stub of a section, hopefully others will add more about the Jewish notion. But I know that my characterization of the Christian notion is at best wildly incomplete. Perhaps among the contributors to this page there are some who could go over it and add whatever additional material, detail, nuance, explanation they think necessary. I am very concerned about not misrepresenting, or doing justice to, the Christian point of view. I also added a long quote from Maimonides to the section on Heaven and Hell; in fact, I did a rewrite a week or two ago. I know the Jewish position is well-represented but again I am concerned that in the process the Christian view may appear misrepresented or at least underrepresented. So, I'd be grateful if someone checked and made sure the Christian view(s) are accurately and sufficiently represented. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Beyond essence

The quote from Tillich cited in the theology section says that God is "beyond essence and existence." This seems to contradict the second paragraph of the theology section which says that the ground of being is essence (and God, of course, is the ground of being). Someone, de-confuse me! And the article, while you're at it! --Rainada 04:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Well it would appear that the philosopher Sidney Hook shared in your confusion. In fact he seemed to think that this sort of confusion lied at the heart of his work as a theologian. --JimFarm 13:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Tillich's theology requires careful explication, and the current article is somewhat lacking in that regard. You are correct that many people are confused by Tillich's work, but that is often because they are relying on the descriptions by others who don't understand him, rather than reading him themselves. The reasons for the difficulties in talking about God have been discussed by countless theologians and sages over the centuries. Language is fraught with problems in attempting to express that which is utlimately unexpressable. For example when Wittgenstein addressed this issue in his 1922 Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus he was misunderstood by the logical positivists. He was not saying that mysticism did not exist, he said that it couldn't be adequately talked about. Similarly, Tillich was trying to say that God does not exist as a being, an object or category, but that God is being itself, beyond all categories or particularized conceptions. In this sense Tillich is an atheist, not because he does not accept God, but because he does not accept the traditional theistic concept of an anthropomorphized God. Those who have had the mystical experience of God can understand this, but it cannot be adequately explained to others. Christians have a similar difficulty in trying to explain their life in Christ to those who have not experienced it. And more mundanely, bicyle riders have difficulty explaining to those who have never ridden one how the rider "becomes one with the bicycle". --Blainster 17:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the reference to Wittgenstein is apt in terms of helping us to understand Tillich, and the different attitudes that people have taken to Wittgenstein's last proposition in the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" correspond, at least roughly, with the different attitudes that people have taken to Tillich. Thus, Frank Ramsey said of Wittgenstein's proposition, "If youcan't say it you can't say it, and you can't whistle it either."

And the logical empiricist, Otto Neurath, asserted:

"The conclusion of the Tractatus, 'whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent,' is at least grammatically misleading. It sounds as if there were a 'something' of which we could not speak. We should rather say, 'If one really wishes to avoid the metaphysical attitude entirely, then one will "be silent," but not "about something." (From his essay "Sociology and Physicalism". In Logical Positivism, edited by A. J. Ayer. Glencoe, IL).

My own inclinations are more to the views of Ramsey and Neurath, than they are to those of Wittgenstein, in his more mystical moods or Tillich. --JimFarm 02:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

EXPLANATION OF "BEYOND ESSENCE AND EXISTENCE"

"Beyond essence and existence" is the language of Hegelian dialectics. Tillich uses both the language and the dialectical formulations of Hegel extensively. Hegelian dialectics is different from Barthian dialectics. A Hegelian dialectic moves from (1) thesis to (2) antithesis to (3) synthesis, where the synthesis is a sort of compromise; in some forms it takes one element of a two-part thesis and combines it with one element of a two-part antithesis to create a two-part synthesis.

One of Hegel's basic dialectics goes from (1) a THESIS of potential essence [potential + essence] to (2) an ANTITHESIS of actual existence [actual + existence], also called estrangement or self-alienation, to (3) their SYNTHESIS, actual essence [actual from the antithesis + essence from the thesis]. In Hegel's philosophy, the metaphysical Spirit (the essence of everything in the physical universe) overcomes self-estrangement (failure of "subject"--the observer--to recognize itself in external "objects") when a particular subject, Hegel, finally realizes that he is looking at himself when he looks at other things and persons, because he and everything external are essentially Spirit. (The Spirit has no independent mind of its own; its only mind is the collective minds of human beings, who are part of the Spirit -- along with the stars, the moon, trees, lakes, mountains, stoves, and shirts.)

Tillich's theology simply substitutes humanity for Hegel's metaphysical Spirit as the "universe" that is the "Absolute" (highest principle). Tillich's God is humanity. "God as a living God must be described in dialectical statements" (ST-2, p. 90).

Humanity moves from (1) a THESIS, potential essence [potential + essence], wherein humanity is potentially God but not actually God because individual humans do not recognize humanity as God--a figurative God-- to (2) an antithesis of actual existence [actual + existence], wherein mankind's "existential predicament" is that humanity is "estranged" from itself because individual humans worship the wrong God, the God of theism, to (3) the dialectical SYNTHESIS of actual essence [actual + essence, or part of the thesis + part of the antithesis]. This Tillichian self-realization occurs when individual humans recognize humanity as the true God.

Tillichian self-realization is only "fragmentary," because only a few humans recognize the true God ("the God above the God of theism"). The Kingdom of God will not arrive until God (Tillich's God) is "all to all" -- all humanity to all human beings. So our "existential predicament" is that we are stuck in the antithesis, which is "estrangement." Man is estranged from himself. That is why Tillich writes, "Man as he EXISTS is not what he ESSENTIALLY is and ought to be. He is estranged from his true being" (ST-2, p. 45). That is, in the essence-EXISTENCE-essence dialectic, man is still at the "existence" stage, the antithesis; "existence" is the state of estrangement, self-estrangement, man estranged from himself. He will become "what he essentially is and ought to be" only when all men recognize all humanity as God.

Any God that is less than ALL humanity -- a nation, an ethnic group, an ideology, a religion -- is "demonic" or "idolatrous." Why? Because it is not "infinite" or "unconditioned." Tillich does not use "infinite" in the mathematical sense of infinity; he uses it to mean not less than all members (persons) of the group (humanity) that constitutes "God." "Infinite" means NOT LIMITED to a certain subset of human beings. "Unconditioned" means the same thing. It means humanity's status as the God above God is not subject to the condition that certain persons or groups are excepted from the definition of God; the God above God includes ALL of humanity. (In some contexts "unconditioned" can mean that Tillich's No to the supernatural is not subject to the condition that God is an exception to Tillich's No to supernaturalism.)

Now you can see why Tillich says the Christian Church is "demonic." Only when a "holy community of universal inclusiveness [all humanity]" replaces the Christian Church's "demonic exclusiveness [no Jews, no Muslims, no Hindus, etc.]" will the Church cease being demonic (Systematic Theology, v. 3, p. 262).

To summarize, "beyond essence and existence" means "beyond thesis and antithesis." The dialectical synthesis, as the third stage of a dialectic, is "beyond" the first two stages. God does not come into existence AS GOD ("self-realization") until a person recognizes God (either Hegel's Spirit or Tillich's humanity) as "God."

Nobody who is not well grounded in Hegelian-Marxian dialectics is going to understand Tillich's philosophical theology, Tillich's Hegelian terminology, or the identity of the God above the God of theism. That is why I am trying to revise the article. Whoever wrote it is thoroughly confused. Tillich does not use a "metaphysical approach"; he is not a metaphysician--not a pantheist, not a nontheistic mystic, not a fan of the Greek logos. Tillich has specifically disavowed "ALL" forms of supernaturalism. And in several places he has also specifically disavowed pantheism and mysticism, both of which are forms of supernaturalism.

Tillich is famous for saying God is "not a being." He italicizes the a. Without the italics, "a" could be interpreted as the article "a" (a, an, and the are "articles"). But when italicized, the a clearly means "one." Tillich is saying God is "not one being." That means God is many beings. But which beings constitute the God above God. Is it horses? Eagles? Salmon? The entire animal kingdom plus humanity? The only beings that make sense as a nonsupernatural God are HUMAN beings; hence, "God is [human] being itself."

In another dialectic, the thesis and antithesis are God and man. God is the source of wisdom and morality for theists; man is the source of wisdom and morality for atheists. So God and man are opposites -- thesis and antithesis. This gives us a Hegelian-style dialectic that moves from (1) God, the thesis, to (2) man, the antithesis, to (3) God = man, the synthesis.

Still another of Tillich's dialectics confirms that the God above the God of theism is nonsupernatural. What Tillich calls "the divine life" is "thinking" that "goes through 'yes' [thesis] and 'no' [antithesis] and 'yes' [synthesis, a HIGHER 'yes'] again" (ST-2, p. 234). Man starts his "divine life" as a theist. This gives us a two-part THESIS: Yes to God + Yes to the supernatural in general. Then man ceases to believe and becomes an atheist. The result is a two-part ANTITHESIS: No to God + No to the supernatural in general. Finally, man becomes a humanist (defined as a person who views humanity as God). This gives us a two-part SYNTHESIS: Yes to God (from the thesis) + No to the supernatural (from the antithesis). The result is Tillich's NONSUPERNATURAL GOD. That nonsupernatural God is humanity--the HIGHER Yes, "the God ABOVE the God of theism."

Don't be fooled by Tillich's use of "He, "His," and "Him" in reference to God. Those words are symbols. They can't be taken literally. "He" really means "it," humanity.

Saul Tillich (talk) 23:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

this is all interesting, but much of it appears to be your own synthesis and original research. the subject matter demands as much scope from reliable sources as possible, with as little editorial as possible, otherwise we're merely reproducing our own interpretations of what Tillich wrote - and that's not what an encyclopedia is for. Anastrophe (talk) 02:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

A Fatal Pedagogical Error"

"A fatal pedagogical error is to throw answers like stones at the heads of those who have not yet asked the questions"

I have seen/heard this quote many times in articles and speeches and it is usually attributed to Paul Tillich. I have not been able to find it in his work, but I believe he may have said it during one of his lectures in Chicago.

Does anybody know the source of this quotation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Merryl (talk • contribs) 14:29, July 24, 2006 (UTC)

The quote is listed at a handful of sites on Google, but none of them cites a source. It does not appear in any of the 20 or so books and articles by Tillich at religion-online.org. --Blainster 07:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Paul Tillich and Calvinism

I noticed Paul Tillich has been added to the Calvinism project. Since he was a Lutheran existentialist theologian, why was he added? --Blainster 16:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Was Tillich so much a 'Lutheran', or in actuality from the German Evangelical tradition (the union of German Lutheran and German Reformed churches in Germany)? My understanding was that he was brought to America connected with the Evangelical Synod of North America (the same denomination of the Niebuhr brothers), which subsequently became part of the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and then finally part of the United Church of Christ. Also, I suspect one could probably make the case that Tillich's influence was probably greater on moderate-to-liberal Reformed type folks (the United Church of Christ, moderate-to-liberal Presbyterians, etc.) than it has been on Lutherans. I will confess that I don't have much at hand in the way of sources/citations for any of this at the moment. Emerymat 15:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an interesting subject. According to Tillich's book My Search for Absolutes, his father was a minister in the "Prussian Territorial Church". Tillich distinguished between a Lutheran wing and a Reformed wing in the Continental Reformation. He says I was always at odds with the Ritschlian theology which establishes an infinite gap between nature and personality... When I came to America I found that Calvinism and Puritanism were natural allies of Ritschlianism in this respect. (p. 25) Over the next couple of pages he clearly identifies himself with the Lutheran, rather than the Reformed tradition: on Lutheran ground the vision of the presence of the infinite in everything finite is theologically affirmed, whereas on Calvinistic ground such an attitude is suspect of pantheism, and the divine transcendence is understood in a way which for a Lutheran is suspect of deism. I think these statements clearly separate him from the Calvinist tradition. --Blainster 16:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Tillich's faculty appointments

Publically available biographical data (see [1]) states Tillich moved from Harvard to the University of Chicago in 1962, where he remained until his death. He may have guest lectured at Duke University as he did at a number of schools, but I see no evidence he ever held a faculty appointment there, so I am removing that reference. --Blainster 21:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this citation supports it: [2]. LaszloWalrus 07:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The article you reference is quite interesting, but it does not support the claim that Tillich held a faculty position at Duke. The article lists six German emigrés hired by Duke, but Tillich is not among them. It does say that he visited Duke a number of times, but that does not mean he was on the faculty. --Blainster 03:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Lack of citations

i'm rather surprised at the amount of narrative in this article that lacks any justification from WP:RS. the last paragraph of the article takes the cake. who is saying this? the article badly needs to be either trimmed of these personal observations, or citations need to be found to back them up. i'm tempted to tag the article as needing more references, but hopefully some of those dedicated to this article will come forward with the effort.Anastrophe 16:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You arrived an hour after an anonymous editor added the paragraph you referred to. It is obviously personal opinion, and thus inappropriate. Most of the rest of the article was created by editors familiar with Tillich's life and work, but it definitely needs more specific citations. If you can help with this, please join in. --Blainster 09:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

thanks. i should have checked that (the edit history), my apologies. if i knew more about the subject i'd help out, but i don't. my mom was a student and friend of his - that's about the extent of my 'expertise' on the subject! Anastrophe 16:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The lack of citations (none at all in the foolish "Bultmann's Influence" section) is one of many reasons why I am trying to get my rewrite accepted. (But the main reason is that the article is full of errors.) My rewrite has literally dozens of citations, mostly to things written by Tillich.

Saul Tillich (talk) 23:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

generally speaking, one doesn't upload an entirely new article to replace an existing article - no matter how bad the previous article was. your edits wiped out a desireable photograph, eliminated most of the wiki formatting, introduced a ponderous bibliography (which - while well-intentioned - falls outside the scope of an encyclopedic article) and while it contained some references, few were inline-cites which are most desireable. instead of doing a wholesale replacement of the article, try working on the article a paragraph at a time. if the edits are a clear improvement, your fellow editors will be happily leave them intact, or modify them as needed. wholesale replacement discourages the cooperative nature of editing on wikipedia, and makes vetting of the material much, much harder. start with small bites. Anastrophe (talk) 02:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

re citations

the following was left on my talk page:

Anastrophe,

In the Paul Tillich article, I attempted to explain a specific quote in greater detail. :Since the original explanation that I added to is not cited either, shouldn't it also be :removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.148.241 (talk) 20:28, 10 November :2007 (UTC)

rather than gutting the article - because most of it lacks citations - my interest is in preventing the inclusion of ever more layers of unreferenced and uncited commentary. i would recommend that you either provide citations for the information you've already added, or remove it. frankly, the article should be gutted - it's in gross violation of wikipedia policies. Anastrophe 23:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't know enough about theology to fix it myself, but coming to it as a general reader (which is the target readership of Wikipedia) I can find no indication of where the information comes from, nor specific citations where I could verify that it represents Tillich's views. I'm added unreferencedsect tags. Gordonofcartoon 03:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

fair warning. the article has been tagged as in need of citation since october. most sections have been tagged as having no citations since november. there's been no positive action on improving the article in that time. per wikipedia policy, and as noted in each of these tags, "Unsourced material may be challenged and removed". if there's no significant improvement by january 1, 2008, i plan on purging all unsourced material from the article. frankly, it would be for the best. starting from 'scratch' may be just the tonic the article needs to come into compliance. finding citations for all of the WP:OR that riddles this article will be well-nigh impossible anyway. Anastrophe (talk) 06:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Tillich and sex

This may be a very old topic long discarded, but would it not be in the interest of telling the truth about the article's subject to mention Tillich's well-attested (well, his wife attested to it anyway) fondness for pornography? [3]Lexo 16:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia isn't interested in truth, it is interested in verifiability. and, of course, relevance. is a 'fondness for pornography' relevant? Anastrophe 19:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Assuming verifiability, I think such background about his personal life is essential to this being a general biography of Tillich as a person, warts and all, as opposed to being an article about his theology and philosophy. Compare Percy Grainger.

Dwelling excessively on that detail alone would be undue weight, but not in the context of other major non-theological aspects of his life and relationships that are omitted: the divorce from his first wife following her adultery with Richard Wegener, Tillich's subsequent exploration of a Bohemian lifestyle, the death of his sister, his complicated early relationship with and later open marriage to Hannah, and so on. See the Time article, Paul Tillich, Lover. All of this should be in the Biography section. Gordonofcartoon 02:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

interesting original research

User:Saul Tillich replaced this article with what apparently was entirely his own version of the article. Had it included proper inline refs, and not begun with unsourced original research, it might have been a good start. however, it fails pretty simply on the basis of being inadequately formatted for wiki, and apparently being a personal synthesis. the user is welcome to attempt some cooperative editing with other editors here, either by posting portions on talk for vetting, or even replacing paragraphs where they seem appropriate, but as it stands it took what is currently a bad article and made it much, much worse. again, i'm happy to work cooperatively on changes, but attempting to go through an entirely new article lacking proper inline cites and formatting is not the process by which progress is made in making this a genuinely good article. Anastrophe (talk) 05:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

REBUTTAL (by Saul Tillich)

Unsourced Original [sic] Research

Anastrophe is wrong in many respects. The reference to "unsourced original material" and "entirely his own version" is demonstrably wrong. Tillich's "God above the God of theism" has been identified for 38 years--ever since the publication in 1970 of Paul Tillich's Dialectical Humanism: Unmasking the God above God (Johns Hopkins Press), by Leonard F. Wheat. Everything in the article can be found in that source. And that source is thoroughly documented in the revised article.

Tillich's being an atheist is not "unsourced original material" either. In addition to quotations from Tillich himself and from Wheat, there are references to two books by Walter Kaufmann, who also recognized Tillich as an atheist; both books were published in 1961. Alasdair MacIntyre, writing in 1963, also identified Tillich as an atheist, and MacIntyre is cited as saying so. Rabbi Bernard Martin also seemed to regard Tillich as an atheist--1963 again--and Martin is cited in reference to this interpretation.

On the subtopic of Hegelian-Marxian dialectics, I cited not only (1) Wheat but (2) Robert Tucker, who wrote a book about Marx and also commented on Hegel, and (3) Tillich, who explained the relationship between thesis-antithesis-synthesis dialectics and the Christian concept of separation and return. So where is this originality to which you refer?

Granted, the revised section on "Influences" is original, but it is pretty much a straightforward recitation of facts, which are not original, except for the index counts of Tillich citations of several German philosophers. This section does contain material that can be construed of rebuttal of the earlier article's assertion that Tillich was influenced by Bultmann, a thoroughly false (and undocumented) assertion. But if that's a problem, you could simply delete the sentences that refer to Bultmann rather than undoing the entire "Influences" section. By the way, the first sentence's reference (under "Influences") that "the author of an earlier 'Bultmann’s Influence' section in this article asserted that Tillich was influenced by his contemporary Rudolf Bultmann" is not intended as rebuttal; it is intended as documentation. I don't know who the Bultmann-influenced-Tillich author is and therefore can cite him only by referring to the original article.

Aren't you using a double standard? If originality in the "Influences" section bothers you, than why didn't you also delete (undo) the previous section titled "Bultmann's Influence"? That is just as unoriginal as my replacement section. And it has no documentation whatsoever, whereas my revised section is thoroughly documented. There is no way you can have a section on influences without some originality.

Which is worse, (1) a section that is unoriginal but accurate or (2) a section that is (a) unoriginal, (b) inaccurate, (c) incredibly incomplete, and (d) undocumented?

In-line Documentation

Your statement that the revised article has "improper in-line refs" and "fails pretty simply on the basis of being inadequately formatted for wiki" is at best weak. Your criticism is much too abstract. But I suspect you are bothered by (1) the placement of some in-line refs at the end of the line rather than immediately after the quotation, (2) the substitution of titles for author in the citations of works by Tillich, and (3) the use of shortened titles in those same citations. Let's take these three points in order.

(1) PLACEMENT: The Chicago Manual of Style (the most widely used style manual in America), 15th ed., para. 11.79, says: "A parenthetical reference need not immediately follow the quotation as long as it is clear what it belongs to. For an example, see 11.76 [where the citation goes immediately before the period]." The MLA [Modern Language Association] Style Manual, the second most widely used style manual in America, says, "To avoid interrupting the flow of your writing, place the [parenthetical reference where a pause would naturally occur (prefereably at the end of a sentence), as near as possible material documented" (p.233). The not-necessarily-at-the-end-of-sentence style is followed in nearly all academic journals that use in-line citations rather than notes. It is common sense. Sometimes a middle-of-sentence location works for a citation, but more often than not it interrupts the flow of reasoning or explanation.

Wiki, I'll grant, uses something Harvard Referencing, but Wiki's "Citing Sources" pages provide no illustrations.

(2) AUTHOR-ONLY CITATIONS: Academic journals almost always use author [last name only] + page citations (and no p. or pp.) The reason is obvious: this style minimizes the interruption and shortens the text. Neither the author's full name nor the title of the book or article cited is necessary, because they can be found in the bibliography or "Works Cited." In other words, keep the text as clean as possible. See MLA 233 for examples.

(3) TITLE-ONLY CITATIONS: The article cites 20 works by Tillich. Therefore, author-only citations cannot be used for works by Tillich. So I instead use shortened titles in place of author; the text always makes it clear that the cited work is by Tillich. Citing the full title is unnecessary and too interruptive; interruptions should be minimized. Shortened titles are widely used in publishing, although usually with endnotes.

(4) THE ENDNOTE OPTION: Using endnotes in place of in-line citations is foolhardy in an article of this sort. Sooner or later -- probably sooner -- revisions will be introduced that add or delete notes. Then all notes following the added/deleted note have to be renumbered. And it won't be long before some reviser errs and the numbering gets all fouled up: the endnotes will no longer match the citations.

Although I think your insistence on a narrow style for in-line citations is far to doctrinaire, I am willing to revise all the notes if you will spell out with examples how you want the notes formatted. I strongly urge you to reconsider your aversion to end-of-sentence notes.

Needless to say, I think your form-is-more-important-than-substance attitude is deplorable. If you think something is wrong with the form, why not volunteer to help correct it instead of throwing the revision in the trash?

Other Formatting

Your "lacking . . . formatting" criticism is much too abstract. Does it relate strictly to in-line citations, or do you have other formatting problems? Do you object to my bold-face secondary headings? If so, I would say that you have little understanding of what it takes to help readers follow a discussion.

By the way, if the absence of links to other wiki articles is part of the formatting problem as you perceive it, that's your fault. You deleted the article before I had a chance to add the links--which is a simple task that you could have undertaken yourself if you don't trust me.

The Bibliography

Now let's look at the sections of the original article and consider why they need to be revised. I'll take them in order, starting with the bibliography.

The bibliography is too short and to undiscriminating. What was the author (you?) thinking when he/she inserted the sentence that reads, "At an early age Tillich held an appreciation for nature and the countryside into which he had been born." That information is arbitrary and undiscriminating; it leads nowhere, provides no insight into Tillich philosophical theology.

And the "Biography" has no citations. I can't for the life of me figure out why you deleted my revision, which is detailed and gives detailed citations (at the end) in favor of a sketchy, poorly written bibliography with no citations. Your actions strike me as just a bit heavy-handed. Can you explain them?

Bultmann's Influence

As I said at the outset, you undid my accurate and well documented revision of the "Influences" section in favor of a totally undocumented earlier section. Your only objection seems to be that the revision is too original ("entirely his own"). Yet you fail to delete "Bultmann's Influence," which is also original. Double standard?

As a compromise, I suggest that you simply strike or revise the few sentences that refer to Bultmann.

Tillich's Theology

The writer of the article I revised has absolutely no understanding of Tillich. Just about everything he says is either false or too abstract to explain anything.

The first problem is that his first paragraph alludes to Tillich's "method of correlation" without understanding what it is. What he does say about correlation is false. Read my section on "The Method of Correlation" for further information.

The second problem, a profound one, is the author's misconception that Tillich is a supernaturalist, specifically, a person who uses a "metaphysical approach" (2nd paragraph, 1st line). Tillich identifies “the anti-supernaturalistic attitude” as “something . . . that is fundamental to all my thinking” (Dialogue, 158, italics added). The word “all” leaves no room for any sort of supernatural God. Lest anyone doubt that “all” really means all, Tillich specifically disavowed belief in the supernatural events described in the Bible (e.g., God’s creating Adam and Eve, the virgin birth, the miracles, the resurrection of Jesus), Jesus’s being the Son of God or God incarnate, divine law, divine forgiveness, the supernatural Trinity, humans possessed by a supernatural Holy Spirit that comes down from heaven, immortal souls, the second coming of the Christ, future resurrection of the dead, and life beyond the grave (Wheat, 30-47). For example, the story of Adam and Eve is “an old myth” (Eternal, 16), and “immortality” is just “a popular superstition” (ST-3, 409-10). The all--inclusive nature of Tillich’s No to the supernatural is the basis for Tillich’s rejecting “a conditioning of the unconditional”--making the unconditional No to supernaturalism subject to the condition that God is excepted (Protestant, 82). And the all-inclusive No–the absolute No–is likewise the basis for Tillich’s saying that “facing the God who is really God means facing the absolute threat of nonbeing”–the nonbeing of everything supernatural (Courage, 39).

The author's metaphysical interpretation is specifically rejected by Tillich. Discussing metaphysics, he decried as “speculative-fantastic” the ideas of those who “attempt to establish a world behind the world” (ST-1, 20). With specific reference to pantheism, which he defines as “the doctrine that God is the substance [Spinoza] or essence [Hegel] of all things,” Tillich wrote: “I have written of the God above the God of theism. This has been misunderstood as a dogmatic statement of pantheistic or mystical character” (ST-2, 12). Tillich rejected any interpretation that “identifies God with the universe, with its essence or with special powers within it” (ST-2, 6-7). “The main argument against naturalism in whatever form is that . . . the term ‘God’ becomes interchangeable with the term ‘universe’ and therefore is semantically superfluous” (ST-2, 7). Emphasizing this point, he opposed “a theology that imagines a supra-natural world beside or above the natural one” (Protestant, 82).

A metaphysical God is endlessly extended in space, encompassing the farthest material in our vast universe. Yet Tillich asserted that God is not “endlessly extended in space” (ST-1, 276-77). (So far, humanity hasn't gotten much beyond earth.) Tillich also said the God above God “transcends both mysticism and the person-to-person encounter” (Courage, 178).

In short, the author does not know what he is talking about and does not understand Tillich. He does not understand that Tillich is using symbolic language--pouring new wine into old wineskins--that, in part, is also Hegelian metaphysical language with new substance, new meaning.

The "Theology" section's third paragraph begins: "Another name for the ground of being [God] is essence." False again. The author does not understand Hegelian dialectics and Hegelian terminology. "Essence" is really the label for the first and third stages of a Hegelian thesis-antithesis-antithesis dialectic; "existence" is the middle stage, the antithesis. I explain this in an earlier part of this "Talk" page, so I won't repeat the details here. Please read what I wrote in that earlier discussion. Suffice it to say here that potential or "unconscious" essence (thesis) is the state of the Absolute (Hegel's metaphysical Spirit, Tillich's humanity) when the essence-existence-essence dialectic begins. Realized or conscious essence (synthesis) materializes when an individual human being recognizes all external "objects" in his "universe" (the physical universe for Hegel, humanity for Tillich) as himself. "Existence," the antithesis of the original essence, is what you have when the conscious observer does NOT recognize that he is essentially the same as ("one" with) all external "objects" (things in the physical universe for Hegel, all other persons for Tillich).

The fourth paragraph says, again falsely, that "existence is that which is finite." Existence is actually two things, or two ways of looking at the same thing. First, "existence" is the middle stage (the antithesis) of a three-stage dialectic. It refers to what is actual. Second, existence is a state where the observer perceives everything external in his "universe" (either Hegel's physical universe or Tillich's humanity) as something other than himself. In Hegel's philosophy, the Spirit is estranged from itself because human minds (the only "mind" Spirit has) fail to realize that everything they see is Spirit, hence themselves (the observers are also Spirit). In Tillich's philosophy, humanity is estranged from itself because human minds fail to realize that all other humans are themselves, humanity, viewed as God. In other words, we are estranged from ourselves because we worship the wrong God, the God of theism, instead of worshiping "the God above the God of theism," humanity.

"That which is finite" is not existence but that which is PARTICULAR, contrasted with GENERAL, or in Hegel's language UNIVERSAL. Hegel's Spirit has two sides: universal (general) and particular. The universe (the physical universe for Hegel) is "infinite"; the things the universe comprises are the particulars, which are "finite." In Tillich's theology, humanity (general) is the "infinite", and individual men are "finite" (particular). Tillich also uses the words "absolute" (infinite) and "concrete" (finite) to mean the same thing. "God" is both universal and particular, one and many. Hence one of Hegel's dialectics, also used by Tillich, goes from (1) One to (2) Many to (3) One = Many (or one composed of many). This is why Tillich insists that God is both infinite and finite, absolute and concrete. (He does not use "infinite" in its mathematical sense.)

The fifth paragraph of the present article says, "According to Tillich, Christ is the 'New Being.'" But Tillich knows "Christ" is a title ("Christos" is Greek for messiah), not a surname. And New Being is what comes about when a person becomes a humanist by espousing humanity as God. Tillich carefully distinguishes between "Jesus as the Christ," who is the supernatural Jesus of mythology, and the historical Jesus. Jesus as the Christ is Tillich's symbol for New Being because he is fully God and fully man, not part God and part man. God can be fully God (by definition) and fully man only when God is defined as man. A God composed of many beings--men and horses--could be "fully God" by definition but it would be only part man, not fully man.

Moving deeper into error, the author quotes Tillich as saying "He is . . . beyond essence and existence." The author thinks this means "God cannot logically be finite." But Tillich is actually alluding to the Hegelian dialectic that takes the form essence-existence-essence. The second essence, stage 3 (synthesis), lies beyond essence and existence (beyond thesis and antithesis). God undergoes self-realization as God when (1) potential essence merges with (2) actual existence to reach (3) actual essence. It is the actual essence (stage 3) that is beyond stages 1 and 2.

The assertion that Tillich's God "cannot logically be finite" pushes the author still deeper into error. Tillich's God, like Hegel's, is both infinite and finite, universal and particular, one composed of many. Humanity is infinite (not limited to just part of humanity) when viewed in its general aspect. Humanity is finite (individual persons) when it is viewed in its particular aspect. Humanity has an infinite side and a finite side. So it CAN logically be finite.

The "Theology" section's last paragraph is a jumble of confusion. The author is totally disoriented. I cannot imagine why you prefer a basically false article to one that is coherent, accurate, and well documented.

Political Views

I have no objection to the "Political Views" section, which follows the "Theology" section, so I left it untouched.

Critical Views

I incorporated the former "Critical Views" section into the "Theology" section because the material relates to Tillich's theology. I added several additional views because the original section did not provide a broad cross-section of opinion. Among my additions were two Catholics, three more Protestants, a Jew, a Unitarian, and three atheists. And I reorganized the interpretations in theist-metaphysician-atheist sequence.

I removed the material on C.S. Lewis's opinions partly because it lacked any citation but mainly because C.S. Lewis (a professor of English and a popularizer of conservative religion [he believed in Satan]) isn't qualified to express an opinion. It isn't just that he doesn't understand Hegel or the Hegelian terminology and concepts used by Tillich. The man was badly misinformed about just about everything outside his own world of literature. He rejected Darwin's theory of evolution. He thought that Tito was the king of Greece. (ref., A. N. Wilson's biography of Lewis) With dozens of opinions to choose from, we have to be a little discriminating. C.S. Lewis? Good grief!

Saul Tillich (talk) 04:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)