User talk:Jimbo Wales

Not sure if you have answered this.....

But what is YOUR view on minors becoming admins here on Wikipedia? I'm just curious as to what your opinion is. Other editors, please allow Jimbo answer himself. Thanks and happy editing!! Dusti^SPEAK!! 15:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no very strong opinion about it. There are people who behave in petulant, ill-mannered, and immature ways. They should not be admins. Whether there is a strong correlation between bad behavior of that kind, and age, I don't know. I do think that, in general, most of our admins should be college students or graduates. Some gifted and profoundly gifted young people would be equally qualified.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:22, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. Out of curiosity, what are your "requirements" per se for an Administrator here on Wikipedia. I understand that you don't !vote much in an RFA, but I would like to know your thoughts and views on this. If you wish, I do have email enabled on my account. Dusti^SPEAK!! 20:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this correspondence should be conducted through e-mails; I don't think this will help the situation surrounding RFA. —Animum (talk) 20:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

That's why I offered that above Animum, the first I think should be here publicly with the conversation going on at RFA, the second is just for my general curiosity. Dusti^SPEAK!! 20:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Careful, young man; us mature and experiences grouches are also able to contribute with the sysop bit. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Ummm.....not too sure what you mean by that...Dusti^SPEAK!! 00:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Based on my long experience, the best admins tend to be: smart, thoughtful, kind, slow to judge, slow to anger, understanding, always sure not to overestimate their own knowledge of a topic or a situation, firm about quality, serious about the project. Some of those qualities tend, I believe, to come with age. But there are a great many exceptionally gifted young people who possess them as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I think older people also make the best long term non-admins. Many people think to be an effective contributor you need to be an admin whereas I personally think I can be a more effective contributor without the tools. At my prep school some were given leadership responsibilities at 11, and that is great, and I think the same should be the case here. Most admins are young enough to be my children adn that is great. Keeping under 18s anonymous is more of a concern though actually wikipedia does an excellent job here too. Thanks, SqueakBox 04:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Jimbo, and have a great weekend!!! Dusti^SPEAK!! 04:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

This is awesome. Someone who doesn't oppose preteens and teens as admins! Shapiros10 ^{contact me}_{My work} 11:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

<-- That, I believe, is part of the greatness of Wikipedia in that it's not what or who you are, it's how you behave. Jimbo is largely correct and I might argue with a preference for college students or graduates; that's not necessarily an indicator of wisdom, in my experience. Actually, my experience is that college graduates can easily cause massive amounts of disruption here, to the detriment of the mission; the reason being that they "know" how things should be and don't fully understand the parameters in which we work here. Yet I have been pleasantly surprised, and heartened on several occasions, to discover that some respected admins are in their teens. I repeat, it's not age; it's attitude. I would be wary of supporting a pre-teen as an admin because it can be a rough ride; OTOH, if they can get through the roller-coaster of an RfA, I would guess that they're pretty much clued up. Fair play to them, I say. --Rodhullandemu 00:51, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin

Hello Jimbo, I would like to direct your attention to the above case and the following WP:AN threads: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Orangemarlin and other matters. This has the makings of getting out of hand very quickly, and it seems that there is a lot of confusion on how the Arbitration Committee acted, and whether the above linked case is actually sanctioned by the Committee. If you have any details on this matter I am sure your opinion would go a long way in finding a remedy to this situation. Thank you for your time. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 22:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

At the request of retiring Lawrence Cohen I have moved a draft from his user space and brought it live. Please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee. A statement from you would be a very welcome and stabilizing influence. With respect, Durova^Charge! 01:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I am talking to the ArbCom about it, and encourage calm. We'll figure it out.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

As you probably know, Jimbo, this has been in draft since March. Although I would have preferred to wait a bit longer than this in the hope that it might be avoided or at least to present it with all the formality it deserves, this was a departing Wikipedian's final request. I cannot call this hasty; he had delayed this long at least partly because of my request and I managed to delay it a couple more hours. The concerns about the security of the Committee's mailing list are not trivial, and there are procedural issues that deserve open discussion. What is the scope of ArbCom's authority? What is the scope of their mandate to hear cases privately? Or to deny established editors who come under scrutiny fair opportunity of defending their actions? The arbitration committee may take action in matters where the community has been unable to form a consensus, but can or should that extend to matters in which the community was not consulted? What method or means is appropriate to announce Committee decisions? When the Foundation Board restructured without consulting the communities for input I opened a petition. Now the Arbitration Committee apparently redefines its role without input from the community, and two arbitrators send very mixed messages about what is happening. Durova^Charge! 02:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The Arbitration Committee has not redefined its role at all. Indeed, my own view, is that the Arbitration Committee itself has done absolutely nothing here. It is absolutely unacceptable that anyone would ever be sanctioned by the ArbCom without the opportunity to defend themselves. If the ArbCom ever did such a thing, I would very much consider that to be the sort of thing that my reserved powers for people to appeal to me to encompass. However, in the current case, this seems to be much more a case of a miscommunication that is getting sorted out rapidly, so there is no need to panic. I see no support in general from the ArbCom for any alternative view than that people sanctioned by the ArbCom of course must be given the chance to defend themselves.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking with my journalist hat on (sorry, Jimbo), can I suggest as this unfolds that someone provide an ongoing attempted-NPOV summary of the players and the issues? As in, pretend you were writing a Wikipedia article on "The ArbCom Controversy of June 2008". That would be beneficial for everyone. As it is, I find myself having to go read A Site Which Shall Not Be Named in order to find out what it's all about, and I suspect I'm not the only observer in that position. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 01:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a reliable source, and effectively a party to the action. . dave souza, talk 20:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Like Wikipedia, it can be helpful in finding reliable sources. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't mean article literally, rather like "capsule summary of relevant facts" -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 07:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Seth, it is online politics in an anarchy arena. The anti-creationist group (aka ID group) which is a subset of the pro-science group is fighting with a coalition of the pro-fringe-science and pro-free-sex group (LGBT etc). Both sides are mostly made up of people trying to help wikipedia in a reasonable fashion. A minority of both sides uses whatever means will work to make wikipedia better in their estimation. There might be one or two of those not trying to make wikipedia better, but I doubt it; I think they are all sincere. Our rules include "Ignore all rules" so they are not breaking our rules. Drama is a product of how we do things here. Arbcom just the other day had a ruling about WP:BLP that included extremest absolutist language. Thoughtfulness is in very short supply - everywhere. WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, that's a start. N.b., let me stress that here I was merely making what I hoped was helpful suggestion in generating better coverage. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 07:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

At the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Intelligent Design which is still in progress, there has been general agreement that labelling people by groups is uncivil, and a significant cause of these problems. Please don't do it. This case is more complex than you suggest. . . dave souza, talk 20:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I never suggested it was that simple. No introduction introduces all the complexities, else it would not be an introduction. And that no group labeling thing is old. "Don't label me a "female"!" etc. Please. What nonsense. Please don't use the concept of civility as an excuse to censor ideas. And the idea that wikipedia has groups is an idea you are trying to censor with your claims of incivility. Stop it. Perhaps I should accuse you of incivility for a bogus charge of incivility? Then we could get more popcorn. :) WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Er, I've been paying attention to this more or less from the get-go and haven't noticed any claims or evidence prior to this of their being a "pro-free-sex group" involved. Do you have specific difs or evidence of this? JoshuaZ (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

WAS, have a look at [[View by User:Rocksanddirt. It made sense to me, if you prefer drama ok, but some people seem very touchy about such things. My experience is that it helps to avoid prejudging people. As you say, people who share common interests differ considerably from each other. . . . dave souza, talk 22:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Real journalists don't involve themselves in stories they are writing about.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Gonzo journalists do. MessedRocker (talk) 02:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

[1] so seth's secret identify is out. :P Seddσn ^{talk Editor Review} 02:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Think of me as akin to an embedded reporter :-) -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 02:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your post Jimbo. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 02:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. Durova^Charge! 02:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for weighing in. Guettarda (talk) 03:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment

Sir, I'd be honored to receive your quick comment, if poss...here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Can a proposal be made by an opponent to gauge the sense of the community? :^) — Justmeherenow (   ) 02:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be incredible if you offered insight into WP:NOTE and WP:FICT.

Absolutely incredible. I realize you get requested for comment on a lot of things here, but this is pretty important to a large portion of the project and involves the core fundamentals of Wikipedia. There've been discussions going on about the subject of what should or shouldn;t be included int he encyclopedia for months, possibly years now and they haven't really gone anywhere. As the owner and creator of this site I think it's your duty to do something here. - Norse Am Legend (talk) 03:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Page that's likely of interest to you

WP:JIMBO. Cheers, Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Another page of interest to you

See Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Arbitration_Committee. Please allow me to be a messenger from said discussion who invites you, per the community, to voluntarily announce a relinquishment of all your right to personally intercede in community workings and policy creation. JeanLatore (talk) 01:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Rich Latimer

Hi. I was chatting (via email) with an old friend from Bell Labs, Rich Latimer, and he said he knew you from NIF out in Illinois. Rich and I have chatted a lot over the years re: Ayn Rand and epistemology. I have ended up inventing a new language, mKR, based on Rand's work. Even closer to home, I am currently working on putting it up on Wikipedia:mKR (programming language).

I used to see Rich occasionally when I visited my kids in Glen Ellyn area. But Rich & Lynn finally took the plunge and moved to Wisconsin.

Rich tells me you're still an Ayn Rand fan. Maybe we could chat about it sometime. Rhmccullough (talk) 03:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

For your further information, Rhmccullough's article can be found here mKR (programming language). ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)