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Anittas (talk | contribs)
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# [[User:Jkelly|Jkelly]] 00:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
# [[User:Jkelly|Jkelly]] 00:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
# [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
# [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

==Outside view by Anittas==

Bad things have been said by me, intentionally - things I '''don't regret''' saying. However, people here seem to have been missed two things:

1. Winnermario and OmegaWikipedia tried to compromise with Mel; they tried to reason with him; they tried to meet him in the middle - all to no avail. Mel doesn't have a problem with just the MoS, but also with table viewing and additional information which he deemed unnecessary to the specific articles.

2. I expressed the will to go back to status quo with Mel. I didn't ask to be his best friend. I asked for a what I believe, was a reasonble thing: to burry the hatchet. Mel gave me the cold shoulder. He only addressed me in third-person. This indicated, at least to me, that he's not interested in ending our conflict.

Furthermore, I will say that some the people here argued different things for wrong reasons. My conflict with Mel has little to do with him violating the 3RR and with his refusal to actually listen to the other party. This conflict started before I got to the scene. People who tried to excuse Mel's behaviour by mentioning my agressive temper which was used against him, are wrong. Those problems don't relate to each other.

It's true that I reverted some of the articles in question, mainly because I don't see the harm in having those extra tables; but again, this has nothing to do with me organizing people to criticize Mel, or insulting him. He didn't revert the articles because I insulted him on my talk-page! If we are to include those seperate problems, then let us also discuss the subject that caused them. --[[User:Anittas|Anittas]] 04:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>):


==Discussion==
==Discussion==

Revision as of 04:52, 8 October 2005

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 3:25 UTC, 7 October 2005, the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 01:53, 7 September 2024 (UTC).

Users should only edit one summary or view, other then to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Description

Mel Etitis (talk · contribs) has been involved in disputes in several articles, including music related articles. These disputes have lasted for quite some time. There have been some attempts to resolve the dispute, however, many of these negotiations have fallen apart. Mel Etitis and several other editors have resorted to reverting each other for quite some time.

In several instances, Mel Etitis has claimed that contrary to Manual of Style reversions count as simple vandalism. In one instance, he admitted to violating 3RR himself arguing that is was justified because the other user was committing "simple vandalism" [1] (which would allegedly permit Mel to make such reversions).

Mel Etitis states on his user page that admins are entrusted by the community, therefore they should be held to even a higher standard then other editors. While he should not be expected to sit idly by while articles are changed in a adverse fashion, he should work to resolve these disputes instead of reverting changes. Having a "revert first, ask questions later" attitude hampers progress, adds to the frustration in a dispute, and sets a bad example for other users.

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.) Below is a list of some of the articles that contain reversions/disputes:






















Applicable policies

  1. Three revert rule
  2. Wikipedia:Revert - "Edit wars considered harmful"

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

  1. Request by Bmicomp to stop reverting - 03:57, 5 October 2005
    Response from Mel Etitis - 07:12, 5 October 2005
    Response from Bmcomp - 14:09, 5 October 2005
    Response from Mel Etitis - 15:38, 5 October 2005
  2. Request by Phroziac to stop reverting - 20:08, 5 October 2005
    No response by Mel Etitis.

Evidence of continued behavior after attemps to resolve dispute

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

(sign with ~~~~)

  1. BMIComp (talk, HOWS MY DRIVING) 03:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Phroziac(talk) 03:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Other users who endorse this summary

(sign with ~~~~)

  1. Ral315 WS 16:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. It's an increasing problem on wikipedia that admins are some of the most active and frequent participants in revert wars. That it takes two to revert war is not an excuse either, as admins in general should be working to foster consensus. Rangerdude 18:08, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Anittas 21:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

The "evidence" shows me trying to maintain articles in the face of stubborn and aggressive resistenace by a small group of editors who openly admitted that they didn't care about Wikipedia policies, guidelines, or accepted style. The supposed evidence for trying to resolve the issue consists of two messages on my Talk page two days ago. There's no acknowledgement of the fact that I've stopped reverting, have placed a number of the affected articles at RfC, in order to get outside comment (see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Media, art and literature), have been discussing the possibility of setting up a discussion page concerning some of the issues (see Talk:The Trouble with Love Is), and have myself spent a great deal of time in (genuine) attempts to resolve the problems at the Talk pages of the editors concerned (see the histories of User talk:OmegaWikipedia, User talk:Ultimate Star Wars Freak, and User talk:Winnermario for examples). My attempts to bring Wikipedia style and standards to a large group of articles has been met by a refusal to discuss the issues and hysterical insults, and the small posse of editors named above (recently joined by Anittas (talk · contribs), and some new accounts and IP addresses making exactly the same edits with the same style of edit summary [or none]) has been engaging in a sort of concerted campaign aimed at me personally. BMIComp and Phroziac have come to this very recently, and faced with a situation in which some six or seven genuine editors, plus various likely sock-puppets & mock-puppets, have been reverting, have decided to focus on me. I don't know what their motivation is, but it seems clearly to be neither a sense of fairness nor a genuine concern for the quality of Wikipedia. (In the case of Phroziac (talk · contribs), I may be wrong, but I think that his only connection with this is that he left one message on my Talk page a couple of days ago, which makes his position as certifying the basis of the RfC shaky I'd have thought.)

Oh, I should add that, because my view that persistent reverting of edits that brought an article in line with MoS, naming policies, etc., is vandalism, I didn't deliberately or knowingly break 3RR; I broke it once (I think) inadvertently, and was more careful thereafter. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. SqueakBox 16:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC). Mel looks to be doing a good job in good faith and this rfc should not be here.[reply]
  3. Extraordinary Machine 21:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC). While Mel's violation of 3RR may be cause for concern, I think the real problem here is how a small but seemingly omnipresent group of editors are automatically reverting genuinely useful edits made to "their" articles, despite justifications made by several other users (see Talk:The Trouble with Love Is, as well as an old discussion at the Village Pump) on why those edits should stay.[reply]
  4. Sean Jelly Baby? 00:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)-Also agree with Extraordinary Machine above.[reply]
  5. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC) Mel is trying to maintain the style laid out in the MoS, and at least one of the editors he's up against, User:OmegaWikipedia, has been reverting not only Mel's style changes, but also the grammar and spelling mistakes that Mel had corrected. I'm also not sure that I see the diffs offered above as evidence of an attempt to resolve the dispute.[reply]

Outside views

These are summaries written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" sections, except to endorse an outside view.

Outisde view by Angr

Clearly, edit warring is bad. And I don't think the changes Mel Etitis was reverting count as "simple vandalism"; therefore he should not have exceeded the 3RR. Nevertheless, from reading the comments at Talk:The Trouble with Love Is#Reasons For Changes, it does seem that he was trying to maintain NPOV and reduce the U.S.-centeredness (or in the case of Avril Lavigne, Canada-centeredness) of the pages in question. A request for comment on the layout of the pages would have been more appropriate than a request for comment on Mel Etitis's behavior.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Angr/tɔk tə mi 06:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --fvw* 01:10, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by McClenon

Mel Etitis has posted a previous question about whether repeated reverts of his MoS edits should be considered vandalism-like. In looking at what I think the problem really is, it appears that there are several loyal editors of the music articles who have a disregard of the Manual of Style, and who want the usage in the articles to resemble the usage in the fanzines and the music press. It appears to me that what they actually think is that the Manual of Style should be revised with respect to music to reflect the usage of the music press. What we really have is a difference of opinion as to what the stylistic standards should be.

There is (as far as I can tell) a consensus that reverting of MoS edits to replace them with non-standard style is not vandalism. As a result, the 3RR rule should apply. Mel should not revert the same article more than three times in 24 hours.

There should be a discussion of whether to change the MoS standards for music, rather than revert wars and edit wars and claims of vandalism. What is needed is not a user conduct RfC (although there has been a minor violation by Mel in going over 3RR), but a standards RfC. Robert McClenon 11:46, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Robert McClenon 11:46, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum

I should add that if the persistent non-standard editors refuse to propose changes to the Manual of Style, then they are being disruptive. If they are persistently reverting MoS edits, then Mel would have a right to go to dispute resolution against them.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Robert McClenon 00:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Pjacobi

Cleaning up after contributors who don't share the goal of writing an encyclopedia and who think International is the antonym of U.S. is a tough job. Mel Etitis should get more support in doing so. --Pjacobi 17:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Pjacobi 18:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Carnildo 21:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  3. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  4. CSTAR 04:27, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Gamaliel

It takes at least two parties to conduct an edit war. This RfC makes no mention of who ME is reverting or why he is doing it. This isn't to say that edit warring is justified by the actions of others, just that the context of this dispute is missing, and given the absence of any context presented by the filers of this RfC, I see no reason not to take ME at his word. Two requests for a single party in an edit war to stop reverting is not an attempt to resolve anything, it is merely scolding which avoids the root problem here, as does this RfC.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Gamaliel 17:20, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Ann Heneghan (talk) 21:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Carnildo 21:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Jkelly 00:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  5. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Jkelly

I would like to put forward my strong conviction that this RfC shows poor judgement. While I am sure that BMIComp and Phroziac are only holding Mel Etitis to the high standard that he has asked them to, this RfC, coming at this point in time does not help Wp. It instead reinforces the idea held by some other parties at the heart of this dispute that the way in which one can avoid having one's contributions copyedited to conform to Wp policy is to complain about being harrassed (see this edit ), attack the copyeditor's character (see this edit), round up a number of potential allies (see this edit) and then make the other user feel unwelcome in various places throughout Wp (see this edit). This is behaviour that the community needs to discourage, not give a gift of legitimacy to.

Furthermore, although this is less of a direct connection, I suggest that this RfC discourages editors from imposing standards upon an article in the face of belligerance. In summary, while I generally support holding admins to a higher standard than regular editors, there is also a larger context that needs thoughtful examination before going forward with third-party dispute resolution processes.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Jkelly 00:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Anittas

Bad things have been said by me, intentionally - things I don't regret saying. However, people here seem to have been missed two things:

1. Winnermario and OmegaWikipedia tried to compromise with Mel; they tried to reason with him; they tried to meet him in the middle - all to no avail. Mel doesn't have a problem with just the MoS, but also with table viewing and additional information which he deemed unnecessary to the specific articles.

2. I expressed the will to go back to status quo with Mel. I didn't ask to be his best friend. I asked for a what I believe, was a reasonble thing: to burry the hatchet. Mel gave me the cold shoulder. He only addressed me in third-person. This indicated, at least to me, that he's not interested in ending our conflict.

Furthermore, I will say that some the people here argued different things for wrong reasons. My conflict with Mel has little to do with him violating the 3RR and with his refusal to actually listen to the other party. This conflict started before I got to the scene. People who tried to excuse Mel's behaviour by mentioning my agressive temper which was used against him, are wrong. Those problems don't relate to each other.

It's true that I reverted some of the articles in question, mainly because I don't see the harm in having those extra tables; but again, this has nothing to do with me organizing people to criticize Mel, or insulting him. He didn't revert the articles because I insulted him on my talk-page! If we are to include those seperate problems, then let us also discuss the subject that caused them. --Anittas 04:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.

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