Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexandros Grigoropoulos

Alexandros Grigoropoulos

Alexandros Grigoropoulos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

• Non-notable; WP:BLP1E. D.M.N. (talk) 18:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Keep:Notable, doubtlessly going to expand as the situation progresses and more information becomes available.

• Keep and improve. Notable for events after his death that were triggered supposedly by his death.Edmund Patrick – confer 19:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep notable enough. Improve --TheFEARgod (Ч) 19:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

  Merge with Greek riots. Notable only because of one event. I doubt the article will grow --TheFEARgod (Ч) 20:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

• Keep: Notable enough per Edmund Patrick and TheFEARgod, a person who's death triggered such an important event. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Person is not notable outside of the 2008 Greek riots, and that article contains the same information in the first paragraph. --Fastsince85 (talk) 19:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Person not notable outside of this article. America69 (talk) 19:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Mohammed Atta is a person not notable outside of 9/11 attacks' article. (This is not meant to compare their acts of course - see my detailed reasoning below). -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 11:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
    • good point about Mohammed Atta, although i still disagree. if you delete the atta article the 9/11 article will expand its coverage on him until you need to split him out into his own article. the Alexandros Grigoropoulos article is not yet so indepth with relevant material that deleting it would result in the 2008 greek riots article being expanded. maybe later, as events unfold and if Alexandros Grigoropoulos still plays a large part in them, his article can be branched out, but for now, it is premature, at best. Misterdiscreet (talk) 20:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Notable, doubtlessly going to expand as the situation progresses and more information becomes available. Nigholith (talk) 20:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Merge to 2008 Greek riots. Not notable outside the incident. JIP | Talk 20:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. Compare with Benno Ohnesorg and Death of Carlo Giuliani.Damac (talk) 22:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep or merge and redirect. Whatever ones inclusion criteria are, I doubt anyone would argue that the riots his death caused aren't notable. The question really is: do we write a separate articel or not. If we don't, we merge and redirect to put him in perspective. I see no valid reasons for deletion. - Mgm|^(talk) 23:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable, considering the events his death triggered. Odikuas (talk) 02:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Fastsince85. also, WP:NOTMEMORIAL, WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOT#NEWS, and WP:INHERITED. and as for Benno Ohnesorg and Death of Carlo Giuliani... see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. if this article cannot survive on its own weight and on its own merits - if the justification for its existence requires two other articles exist - it has no business being on wikipedia. and as for the "notable enough" arguments... see WP:ITSNOTABLE. Misterdiscreet (talk) 01:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. I feel sorry for the kid, but he is not notable and does not need to be memorialized here. Sufficient detail already exists at 2008 Greek riots. Aramgar (talk) 01:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep I understand concerns about notability but I think time is going to see this develop. You can compare this article to the development of the Carlo Giuliani article about the young man who was shot dead by police at 2001 G8 demonstration in Genoa. His notability is limited to the incident, yes, but that article eventually developed with details about the actual shooting death of the teen which people added on as the information came to light. For example, this entry will likely serve as an encyclopedia for information on the trial of the two police officers involved in his death, which is historically notable information, given the riots that broke out. Normally, I'd be against a one-incident notability, but this will likely have lots of important information down the line. SamuraiDiscoCat (talk) 01:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep His death was clearly notable. I'm sure many are curious about his life. Why not keep for now an reconsider the fate of the article in a year or so once it has had a chance. Why kill it now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.11.40 (talk) 02:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

by that same token why not delete it now and recreate it in a year if there's still interest? Misterdiscreet (talk) 04:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• Move to Death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos - We don't have an article on Carlo Giuliani, we have an article on Death of Carlo Giuliani. WP:BLP1E says cover the event, not the person. Event is clearly notable as evidenced by news reports and is distinct from the 2008 Greek Riots. Stu ^(aeiou) 03:02, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 04:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of News-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 04:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 04:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to 2008 Greek riots per WP:BLP1E and WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. How exactly is the event notable outside the riots? It's what caused them. Ipso facto, covering the event (as required by BLP1E) is covering the riots. GlassCobra 10:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment:By that logic, we should merge and redirect everything to Big Bang - causality isn't the issue here. The 2008 Greek riots were in response to the Death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos, but they deal with two distinct sets of events. One is about a police bullet entering a teenager's body, and what actually happened is incredibly contested. As his death is investigated, a lot of claims are emerging regarding the the specific event - who was at the scene, who at the scene did what before, during, and after he was shot, who was specifically responsible, if it was an act of murder or self-defense, and so on. In this article, we say that it sparked the riots, but we don't go too much in depth about the riots.

The other event is a group of people getting angry and doing a lot of different things in a lot of different cities. What actually happened (or is happening) in that event is not that contested, although there are a lot of facts to sort out. As these riots progress, a lot of claims are emerging regarding the specific event - what got damaged, domestic and international responses, total cost, political fallout, and so on. In this article, we say that the riots were sparked by his death, but we don't go in depth about the events of that night, the investigation, trial, etc. Stu ^(aeiou) 17:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Notability limited to WP:ONEEVENT. WWGB (talk) 12:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Cover the event per WP:BIO1E. Merge and redirect to 2008 Greek riots. No notability independent of the event shown. • Gene93k (talk) 12:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete: Sadly the person is not notable outside of the riots. No matter how much the article is improved the vast majority of the contents will be about the riots and what happened afterward, (court cases, responses, other injuries, and so forth), it might turn into an article biased toward the rioters in general. FFMG (talk) 14:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Person is not notable outside of the 2008 Greek riots, ' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkonandreas (talk • contribs) 15:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep:I think that a person murdered by a police special guard is quite notable, for human rights violations which caused his death. What follows his death includes Greek riots, but also a controversial court procedure, where the murderer didn't apologize etc.--Lady 6thofAu (talk) 16:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Whatever social changes are made, as a result of his death, make him notable. NorthernThunder (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Subject is sufficiently covered in the 2008 Greece Riots article. --Tocino 17:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep: Article will expand and will be a notable topic distinct from the riots. I would also support a move to Death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos, but we should begin treating the person/triggering incident and the riots as related matters. The riot article does not need to detail what will certainly be a long legal proceeding or detail facts about the young person who died. Jokestress (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• Keep, absolutely. This person, as part of street culture phenomenon, was notable enough for another person to shoot, and to shoot not in the air. You can not get ricochet from the air. Grigoropoulos represented certain social group. Thus context (background of the killing), which is directly related to matter who the killed one was as person, is complicated in itself and has standalone essence beyond riots. DenisRS (talk) 21:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: "two warning shots in the air and a third aimed on the ground", says the article about riots. Seriously, "warning shots" are not done by aiming on the ground; there was reason for that. DenisRS (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - Notable. Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 22:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - For now. Until the full extent of the situation can be determined. --➨Candlewicke  ^{:) Sign/Talk} 22:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: In relation to and as a possible reason for my above statement the talk page does mention Jean Charles de Menezes. Perhaps in time this has the potential to be like that case. --➨Candlewicke  ^{:) Sign/Talk} 22:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. Historically significant for Greece.MiltonP Ottawa (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. He is already notable and will remain so. The article will propably grow by time in the aftermath. hydrox (talk) 07:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Hesitant Keep as it stands now* The story has huge notability, the state of unrest in Greece as a result of his shooting is making huge international headlines. One of the top stories in Seattle, Washington tonight on the news. I am just wondering if this young man himself, who was actually the catalyst to newsworthy event should be focus of article or perhaps on on the fallout instead.OneHappyHusky (talk) 08:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Readers have the right to know who was the person whose death prompted nationwide riots covered in the media worldwide. The Greek modern historians will at least refer to him as others still refer to Gavrilo Princip (this is of course not meant to compare the two persons but to show what prompting a large-scale event means). -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 11:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep per FayssalF. --KaragouniS :  Chat  13:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep At least on par with Jean Charles de Menezes, Crispus Attucks, John Tunstall, and any other number of articles whose sole notability is based on the circumstances of the person's death and its political / historical consequences. 168.39.166.127 (talk) 15:42, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Delete: Unlike Jean Charles de Menezes, Grigoropoulos is not the event itself -- the 2008 Greek riots are -- and there is little more that can be written about Grigoropoulos that would not also appear in the article on the riots. ⇒Bayerischermann ^- 18:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Delete per WP:BLP1E Terrakyte (talk) 20:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Notable enough per Edmund Patrick and TheFEARgod, a person who's death triggered such an important event. Lenerd (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: it really says a lot about the strength of your position (or lack thereof) when you find yourself quoting, verbatim, other users. In this case, User:Otolemur crassicaudatus, per [1] and [2]. see WP:JUSTAVOTE while you're at it Misterdiscreet (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)