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WT:NPOV

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Undue weight and description of minority views

I have had a couple of experiences where editors have used WP:WEIGHT as an excuse to distort or minimize the views of AIDS dissidents, even in articles about those views. My understanding of WP:WEIGHT is that it applies to subjects (like scientific claims) about which there are multiple points of view, and asks us to favor the most prominent viewpoint. But sometimes the subject is a person's opinion about a fact, rather than the fact itself, for instance as often occurs in a biography. As I understand it, in this case, WP:WEIGHT is not directly applicable, except as it pertains to mainstream and minority views on the opinion itself, and perhaps as it asks us to mention the existence of more mainstream opinions. In other words, if the opinion is relevant to the article, then it should be described in enough detail to convey its content and basic reasoning, and not trivialized because of any "fringe" nature.

But some people are using WP:WEIGHT to do just this. In this edit, MastCell removes the name and qualifications of Gordon Stewart and reduces his account of the Durban conference, and his reactions to the Durban Declaration, to a simple endorsement of free speech. In this edit, Keepcalmandcarryon replaces an accurate, referenced description of Henry Bauer's views with something misleading, inaccurate, and vaguely racist-sounding. In both instances, WP:WEIGHT was given as justification. My question is, are these kinds of edits justified under WP:WEIGHT? I can see why an article on the Solar system would not dwell on pre-Copernican views, or why the article on AIDS would not dwell on the views of the dissidents; what I don't really understand is how it is that Galileo affair can describe pre-Copernican views at length, while AIDS dissident views are censored even in articles about those views. A5 (talk) 20:30, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, well, you've run into one of wikipedia's bugaboos. AIDS denialism is one of the topics that is guaranteed to trigger an instant, aggressive, kneejerk opposition. I think MastCell's edit was a bit heavy (but then so was yours, in that place - you might try editing in a compromise version of maybe half the length); keepcalm's edit wasn't as iffy (try adding some of what you wrote as a footnote, rather than in main text). MastCell is very reasonable, actually, and if you discuss the matter with him calmly and succinctly you'll make some progress. However, if you're going to pursue this you should recognize that aids denialism is scientifically speculative and politically sensitive, which is a baaaaad combination on wikipedia, editorially speaking. --Ludwigs2 23:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's funny, I see this in exactly the opposite way. IMO, MastCell's edit was quite legitimate, because that article is about the Durban declaration and not about Gordon Stewart's fringe opinions about it, so these should be given approximately as much detail as MastCell gave them and not as much as A5 gave them (MastCell's edit keeps the really relevant content, afaics; 9/10 of the rest is rhetoric). In contrast, Keepcalmandcarryon's edit can't be justified by Undue Weight, because that article is about Henry H. Bauer, and Henry H. Bauer's opinions ought to be explained there in detail.--Anonymous44 (talk) 01:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

lol - well, I'll bow to your judgement. this really isn't a topic I know much about: I made my assessment because MastCell was actually changing the tone of the passage while Keepcalmandcarryon just seemed to be simplifying. Your analysis is better, and more to the point.

--Ludwigs2 22:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your replies, Anonymous44 and Ludwigs2. Note that other declarations, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, feature criticism. Why not the Durban declaration? More to the point, is citing WP:WEIGHT valid for removing such criticism? The article is not about AIDS, after all, it is about the history of science. The present article reads like one side of a telephone conversation: the declaration condemns allegations which are nowhere summarized; and Wain-Hobson and Weiss's reply to Stewart is given without the context of Stewart's response to the Declaration. Without the material I had inserted, the article gives the impression that the dissidents have unquestioned answers; but Stewart alleges they have unanswered questions. Pulling the phlogiston card, as Wain-Hobson and Weiss do, seems less suave when they could have just enumerated the questions of Mbeki and their scientific answers. But readers of Wikipedia do not get to entertain this judgment, whether it is valid or invalid, because half of the historic exchange has been hidden from them.

I didn't try making my Durban Declaration edit shorter because MastCell's application of WP:WEIGHT seemed unamenable to compromise. I think that WP:WEIGHT is being consistently misused by people who, for whatever reason, want to make AIDS dissidents sound like fools. Perhaps they are only innocently defending, through censorship, a Truth which they see as precariously fragile against dissent.

But it would seem advisable to try to make the editing process more agenda-proof by deciding exactly how WP:WEIGHT should apply to descriptions of scientific theories found in biographies and history of science articles - and, in particular, if it can be used as an excuse to remove information which is otherwise relevant to the subject. Calling "AIDS denialism" one of "Wikipedia's bugaboos" sounds sadly fatalistic to me. A5 (talk) 00:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:WEIGHT is meant not only to prevent Wikipedia becoming yet another internet forum for fringe groups, but also to ensure coverage proportional to that in reliable sources. The Durban Declaration was published in a leading medical/scientific journal. In a short period of time, thousands of scientists at an AIDS conference, all of them with advanced degrees and most with specific HIV/AIDS expertise, had signed an affirmation of the scientific community's long-held consensus that HIV causes AIDS. The declaration was covered in many prominent news sources internationally. Criticism of the declaration was notably voiced by South Africa's Mbeki, whose administration's actions had indeed prompted concerned scientists to draft the document. This criticism is reported in detail by the Wikipedia article. Several AIDS denialists also wrote a letter to the editor of Nature. This criticism is probably not notable, given the type of publication (a letter); that most or all of the writers are notable only as AIDS denialists, if at all; and that the arguments presented by the authors are rejected by mainstream scientists with credentials in the field. The distribution of reliable sources indicates that a sentence about Mbeki's response would suffice. If the AIDS denialists' letter to the editor is mentioned at all, it shouldn't get its own paragraph, which is what A5 seems to want. Nor should the article on the Durban Declaration mention by name an unknown author of a critical letter to the editor when not a single one of the declaration's signers are mentioned. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No wonder my ears were burning. AIDS denialism is the textbook case of WP:FRINGE: a discredited viewpoint propounded by a tiny group of committed believers. It is a notable fringe view, given that its irresponsible promotion and acceptance have led to hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths in South Africa (PMID 18931626). But it is a fringe view; I'm not aware of any other respectable reference work which covers the topic. Most ignore it as complete below-the-radar lunacy. It makes Wikipedia look ridiculous to treat a widely rejected tiny-fringe view as if it were part of some nonexistent "debate"; this is exactly the sort of thing that WP:WEIGHT was intended to forestall.

Since AIDS denialism has been scientifically discredited, it is promoted largely via the Internet (Smith & Novella, 2007). This is a case in point. If AIDS denialism seems to be one of Wikipedia's "bugaboos", that may be because groups of advocates occasionally coordinate assaults on Wikipedia to attempt to slant our coverage toward their fringe view, and Wikipedia doesn't always handle such organized agenda-pushing as well as it should.

The Durban declaration generated numerous published responses in Nature. Curiously, A5 chose to excerpt only one of these at length - the one authored by an AIDS denialist. This is poor editing at best, and actively dishonest at worst; it gives the reader an incorrect impression of the actual debate, and makes the rhetoric about "censorship" seem rather hypocritical. My subsequent edit was an attempt to partially correct this oversight, by providing a somewhat fuller sample of the responses to the declaration. MastCell ^Talk 04:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

don't make my 'bugaboo' comment wrong, MC. I'm not supporting AIDS denialism (my own impression of it is that it's a valid scientific perspective that's been effectively refuted by the weight of evidence, but is still waved around for political reasons - too bad, that). and I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's any coordinated efforts to do anything on either side - or at least, the amount of coordination on both sides of the fight is probably pretty equal. my point was to you A5: the hope for a properly neutral article is unlikely to be fulfilled given the current wikipedia environment, and the bias is going to weigh against the fringe side, because the skeptics (as a rule) have a better understanding of the WP system. the more you push the point, the more they'll use the rules against you, and the more ground you'll lose. It would be nice to think that wikipedia worked correctly on contentious issues like this, but it doesn't. You had best accommodate yourself to the realities of the situation if you want to make any progress at all. --Ludwigs2 06:20, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe the science types have RS and VERIFY on their side, and they need to use those particular guidelines to keep the fringe theorists out of science articles. AIDS denialism is NOT a valid scientific perspective. Never has been. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 06:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OM, I don't think you really appreciate the difference between a valid scientific perspective that's been refuted and an un- or non-scientific perspective. At least, I've tried to explain the difference before without much luck. I'll give it one more shot, without expectations, but in the full knowledge that I've proved my point whatever the outcome. so...

any theory where the researchers involved use something resembling valid scientific thought (defined in terms of falsifiable hypotheses, proper forms of inference, and reasonable practices of experimentation that produce tangible results) is scientific
- if it can't be reproduced, or flaws are discovered in the logic or practices, then the theory is refuted, but that doesn't make it any less scientific
- if other researchers (or worse, non-researchers) revive the theory for some kind of manipulative (eg, political or economic) purpose, that doesn't make the original theory any less scientific or any less refuted; it's just sad.
any theory which is merely a statement of belief, without reasonable practices of experimentation or tangible results, is non-scientific or unscientific.
- doesn't matter if the theory is couched in scientific-like language; scientists look at practices and results, not at the language used.

AIDS denialism, so far as I can tell, was a valid theory proposed by researchers who were trying to be scientific - there just isn't really a shred of evidence that supports it. the fact that some of them continue to push the idea despite that failure means that those researchers have stepped over the line (or come close to stepping over the line - I'm not sure how far they've gone with it) into unscientific practices. it doesn't mean that the original thought was unscientific, or invalid, or bad.

so ends the lesson; do with it what you will. --Ludwigs2 07:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How many times have you been blocked for personal attacks? You have no clue what I know or don't, and I have a perfectly fine idea what has been refuted, and what is pseudoscience. Your insults are just going to get you blocked again. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 06:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(un-dent) If your car tyre gets shredded on the road, you don't pick up the pieces of rubber because they're "still part of your car" - you change to the spare and drive on. When your scientific research produces data which disprove your hypothesis, the scientific thing to do - i.e. the course of action which is in keeping with the process of science - is either drop the hypothesis altogether or refine it in some way. Hanging onto ideas which have been proven incorrect is inherently unscientific. You simply can't, with a straight face, stand up and say "this idea is still scientific". You have to leave it behind and move on.

In the interest of full disclosure, my opinions on AIDS denialism and pseudoscience can be inferred from my user page. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:34, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree with Ludwigs2 in general, but AIDS denialism is not at all "a valid theory proposed by researchers who were trying to be scientific". It's more like "an unsupported recycling by a scientific outsider of once-valid theories proposed, tested and soundly rejected in the early 1980s by experts in the field". By the time the AIDS denialists got to these theories in the late 1980s, there was little or no evidence remaining for them, there was plenty against, and another theory had accumulated enough evidence to amass scientific consensus. Since then, all of the evidence continues to favour causation by HIV and to reject a hypothesis like recreational drugs. And that's to mention only the most respectable AIDS denialist hypothesis of all.

About the assertion that there are no "coordinated efforts to do anything on either side - or at least, the amount of coordination on both sides of the fight is probably pretty equal", let's be clear about the sides involved: this is not a fight about ideas, it's a fight about whether to implement Wikipedia policies and guidelines. As for co-ordination, there have been numerous clear-cut cases of off-Wiki recruiting by AIDS denialists. In at least one case, a user password was made public for disruptive purposes. I would encourage Ludwigs2 to remind me (because I honestly don't know) of when editors such as MastCell, OM, SheffieldSteel (or any of the other editors who regularly oppose fringe POV promotion) have engaged in behaviour like that. For my part, I don't know the off-Wiki identity of any of these people, and although I often bump into them while editing, I've never to my knowledge co-ordinated with them in a way that violates a Wikipedia guideline. If I have, I would like to know so that I can avoid such behaviour in future. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 18:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SheffieldSteel, Keepcalmandcarryon: you know, I agree with both of you about 93% (eh, let's just say 'a lot', and avoid the fake numbers

). I think it's absurd to keep beating a dead horse, particularly when the horse died from lack of evidence. however, I draw the line at saying it was never a horse in the first place. rejecting theories is a core element of the proper working of science; to my mind the most effective approach to this problem is to say 'yes, this was a valid scientific theory, which was rejected for these reasons; its continued use is not scientifically valid' (something I see done by science editors on a lot of more conventional articles, incidentally, but the approach seems not to be recognized much on fringe articles).

with respect to the issue of coordination: I've seen enough fringe-opposing editors show up out of the blue to cast votes on things, revert problematic edits when a different editor is close to violating 3rr, add commentary to talk pages when they've never edited the page before, and etc. to be aware that there is background communication going on. it might be something as innocent as 'common interests', might be a more-or-less unobjectionable requests for assistance, might be something more nefarious (and there are probably elements of any of those among different cliques and groups of anti-fringe editors). the fact that you phrase it as "never ... co-ordinated ... in a way that violates a Wikipedia guideline" tells me that you (and assumedly the other anti-fringe editors) are well aware of the limits imposed by WP policy, which leads me back to my opinion above that the anti-fringe editors are currently able to work the system better than fringe editors. I don't (personally) buy into the bit about it being ' a fight about whether to implement Wikipedia policies and guidelines'; if one believes that policies and guidelines are built on consensus, then the notion that one has to fight to maintain them is (to use a gentle term) paradoxical. fighting to maintain consensus is like having a war to maintain peace - might make sense in the short term, but after a while you end up destroying the very thing you're trying to maintain.

no offense, I hope: I'm the world's most pragmatic idealist (or maybe that's the world's most idealistic pragmatist), and so I can't help pointing out both the way things actually are and the way they ought to be. sometimes I give myself headaches.

--Ludwigs2 23:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV is not a matter of consensus. It's a fundamental Foundation-level principle, and is non-negotiable. Sadly, given the prominence of Wikipedia and its attractiveness as a venue to raise the profile of ideas rejected from choosier venues, it is often necessary to "fight" to defend it. The system itself is designed to present rejected minoritarian views as rejected minoritarian views, not as equally plausible alternatives to reality. That's essential to the creation of a serious, respectable reference work. You're not seeing one side "working the system" - you're seeing the system working. MastCell ^Talk 04:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ludwigs thinks that consensus rules. NPOV rules, and it's simple as that. He has been beating this horse for months, despite several increasing levels of blocks for not accepting these fine guidelines. BTW, retired? OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 06:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To go with the horse analogy, AIDS denialists found a horse that expired a few years previously, claimed it was still alive, and have been dragging the stinking carcass down the road for twenty years now, telling everyone they meet how healthy the damn thing is and how many pounds of oats it ate this morning. Ludwigs2 calls the last bits of bones a "valid" horse because the horse was once alive. That's Ludwig's opinion. Fine. More disturbing are Ludwigs2's continuing accusations of illicit (or borderline) behaviour by me and other editors who try place NPOV ahead of pseudoscience. I watch many pages related to AIDS denialism and other forms of quackery. When I see edits, I check them out. Other editors do the same thing. MastCell once informed me that I was being discussed on a notice board...after the person who brought the complaint didn't see fit to let me know about. Is that gaming the system? A conspiracy? Or independent editors who have overlapping interests, respect each other, and follow the rules? Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Remember that in general a lot more reading than writing goes on. Case in point: Look at the editors who've commented here. What are the chances of such a similar subset of registered Wikipedia users editing both AIDS denialism and Talk:NPOV? Must be some sort of collusion going on, right? Alternatively of course, it could just be thatwithout anyone writing anything, people with similar views tend to read similar pages and to respond similarly. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 16:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, never underestimate the power of The Watchlist. case in point: you won't see my name that much on these pages, but I am quite up to speed with the issues involved Baccyak4H (Yak!) 17:11, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really not sure why you guys has difficulty with this consensus issue; this is pretty straight forward. allow me to quote wp:POLICY at some length: "Policies and guidelines express standards that have community consensus. Both need to be approached with common sense: adhere to the spirit rather than the letter of the rules, and be prepared to ignore the rules on the rare occasions when they conflict with the goal of improving the encyclopedia. Those who edit in good faith, are civil, seek consensus, and work towards the goal of creating a great encyclopedia should find a welcoming environment." logically, then:

Policies express standards that have community consensus
NPOV is a policy
NPOV express standards that have community consensus

further, since most of the people in this discussion have engaged in efforts to change bits and pieces of NPOV at various points (on occasion trying to circumvent consensus to do so), the claim that NPOV is a 'non-negotiable principle' is disingenuous at best. please don't feed me lines that are that obviously inconsistent.

with respect to the other stuff, you should read what I actually wrote more carefully. if you feel insulted by it, that's something for you to reflect on, not something inherent to what I said. sorry. --Ludwigs2 22:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ludwigs2, you've placed me (and the others) in the same category with a group of fringe POV editors, including single-purpose accounts who share passwords for the stated purpose of disrupting Wikipedia. That's not something for me to reflect on, it's an outright accusation of poor behaviour, backed up with no evidence. I'm not insulted, as it turns out, just confused about why you've assumed bad faith of me and other editors. It now appears it has something to do with a personal history I don't know about, and since we've veered far off the topic of NPOV (not that this was the proper forum for A5's concerns in the first place), I'm signing off on this one. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 23:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

again, no offense, KC. I've never had the pleasure of editing with you before this, so I wouldn't presume to make comments about what you do. I do reserve the right to have a (well justified) cynicism about the motives and practices of a handful of other editors, but that's based on personal experience that (you're correct) doesn't need to be brought into this discussion. in other words, please don't leave on my account; I happen to find your input useful and relevant.

--Ludwigs2 00:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I have certainly altered NPOV in the past. One of the changes was an attempt to remove the cruft from the UNDUE section, which didn't get support, while another was a rewrite of the first sentence, which did. For convenience, here it is: Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia. Ludwigs2, I suggest you follow the link to meta:Foundation issues in order to gain some understanding of the cases when consensus alone cannot determine policy. Also I'd recommend per WP:NPA that you avoid commenting on what you believe the motivations of other editors to be. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:33, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for your suggestions. I am fully aware of the issues involved.

--Ludwigs2 22:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Ludwigs2, for your warnings, advice, and observations; and especially for the risks and criticism you endured in making them. I was myself surprised to be warned on my talk page regarding WP:FORUM by the same user who directed me here - was I supposed to make my case without citing examples? Further, I seem to be the only editor in this conversation who has not expressed a personal view on AIDS, and in light of that it is especially ironic that I am also the only one who has been warned not to use this page as a "forum". I am still not sure which of my statements broke the WP:FORUM rule.

MastCell appears to argue that Durban declaration is a scientific paper on AIDS, which seems at odds with his view that Michael Specter's emotional state and the South African phrase for "trash can" are both relevant to it (and also at odds with the fact that it has no authors, 5000 signatories, and calls for "solidarity"). Perhaps a separate article could be created for the paper's scientific claims, which occupy less than one sentence in the present article; or they could be moved to a sub-section in which different rules are applicable. As it currently stands, the article seems to be mostly about the history of science.

So far as I can tell, nobody has answered my question concerning the proper interpretation of the WP:WEIGHT rule. My understanding is that it can always be used to add information to articles, to contextualise "fringe" views by contrasting them with their mainstream counterparts. I maintain that this positive application of WP:WEIGHT is always powerful enough to confront the danger, which has been voiced by some editors, that Wikipedia might mislead readers into confusing "pseudoscience" for science.

Also, we can always delete information which is irrelevant to an article. And WP:WEIGHT can be applied negatively, to delete information about controversial views from articles discussing the subject matter of those views, e.g. to delete pseudoscience from science articles. But can WP:WEIGHT be used to delete "fringe" views from contexts where they are otherwise relevant, for instance from articles about the history of science, or biographies - which happen to discuss the views themselves? As far as I understand it, the policy's answer is "no". We cannot try to explain theories, even ones which have been discredited, without reference to their own internal consistency. To make the situation clearer for editors, I propose adding a table like the following to Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ or Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Examples. The "OK to remove?" column stands for "Is it OK to use WP:WEIGHT to remove information about the given subject from the given article?". For the Durban declaration, I have provided two rows, to address MC's concern, which would apply separately to the separate articles or sections covering each aspect of the declaration. Of course, there will always be other ways for editors to remove relevant information from articles, but it would at least be a step in the right direction to clarify the proper use of WP:WEIGHT.

Subject	Article	OK to remove?
pre-Copernican astronomy	Solar System	yes
pre-Copernican astronomy	Galileo affair	no
pre-Copernican astronomy	Ptolemy	no
Phlogiston theory	Combustion	yes
Phlogiston theory	Phlogiston	no
Phlogiston theory	Johann Joachim Becher	no
Biblical creation	Big Bang	yes
Biblical creation	1860 Oxford evolution debate	no
Biblical creation	Christianity	no
Moon landing hoax	Apollo program	yes
Moon landing hoax	Apollo Moon Landing hoax conspiracy theories	no
Moon landing hoax	Bill Kaysing	no
AIDS dissent	AIDS	yes
AIDS dissent	Durban declaration (scientific paper)	yes
AIDS dissent	Durban declaration (declaration)	no
AIDS dissent	AIDS denialism	no
AIDS dissent	Henry H. Bauer	no

Sorry for writing so much. Comments are welcome. Please let me know (with support from the policy text) if I have misinterpreted WP:WEIGHT. A5 (talk) 00:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A5 might want to consult WP:TLDR, so I'll summarise for others: it seems A5 is proposing that WP:WEIGHT should not allow removal of pseudoscientific material, only addition of mainstream material to balance it. Thus, the flat earthers should have their say at Earth and anywhere else they like, so long as additional material is put into the article for balance.

That's not my take on WEIGHT at all. The extent to which fringe material is removed or, instead, balancing material is added depends on, well, how fringe fringe is in the particular case. Flat earth is an example given by WEIGHT as so "fringe" it does not merit inclusion. AIDS denialism, to use the examples from WEIGHT, is in the flat earth, not the psychoanalysis category. Like flat earth, AIDS denialism is not (or no longer, as Ludwigs2 has stated) a valid scientific position, it is supported today only by a small number of extremists and altmed profiteers, and would probably not be notable enough for Wikipedia if it were not for its embrace by Thabo Mbeki and the many deaths it has caused, most notably in South Africa. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 20:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that WP:WEIGHT is doing what it is supposed to be doing, and that there is no problem with it (at least as far as this thread goes). Verbal chat 20:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Verbal: I wouldn't say that the undue weight clause is bad at all; but it does (in its current incarnation) lend itself to some staggering abuses. the exclusion of tiny minority opinions, in particular, is a problem. As far as I can see, the original purpose of that clause was to ensure that articles did not get side-tracked into tangential discussions of hordes of inconsequential (valid or not) viewpoints - it was meant to keep articles succinct, on point, and informative. it is still used that way, of course, but has been co-opted by people who simply want to exclude viewpoints they disapprove of (which I can't believe was ever its intent).

Keepcalm: I've said this before (so pardon me if I'm repeating myself) but there is no 1:1 relationship between 'weight' and 'fringe'. Flat earth may be a fringe theory, but the weight it gets depends on its importance to the article in question. flat earth theory gets has no weight in an article on plate tectonics, but may in fact be the dominant theory in an article about flat earth theory. Likewise, Aids Denialism (which I doubt is the term those people use for themselves - what do they call their theory?). would have no weight in an article about the microbiology of HIV (well, possibly in the history section, if there is one), but it might carry some small weight in the Durban Declaration, just as a notable counter-voice.

I'll add, just as an FYI, that the reason I keep pushing this point is mainly scientific/pedagogical. I get too many students (college students, mind you) who shy away from science/math/computers/... because (in their minds) science is something where you're either right or wrong, and they're convinced they're going to be wrong, so they don't want to try. but you know, science works by people doing things wrong. if you don't respect the earnestly screwed-up theories and theorists, you end up reinforcing the idea that wrong=bad, and you drive a few more people into scientific illiteracy. not anyone's intended result, I think. --Ludwigs2 21:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The AIDS denialism article explains the denialist beliefs and the mainstream consensus as WP:WEIGHT suggests. Fully half of Durban Declaration describes the AIDS denialist letter to the editor and the response to it, which is out of balance and much more than WP:WEIGHT would require. Henry Bauer explains the author's pseudoscientific AIDS theory, in more detail than its relative prominence (the author's own website and book) would justify. If anything, it appears we're giving fringe positions like AIDS denialism more weight than necessary for their verifiable prominence in reliable sources.

For those who wish to use wacky theories like AIDS denialism or racial superiority or the Loch Ness Monster as counterpoints in the classroom, the detailed claims of fringe theorists are present all over the internet. Wikipedia may describe the more notable fringe theories in their proper context but ultimately is an encyclopaedia, not a random collection of poorly-sourced speculation or a promotional site for adherents of these ideas. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong again. We don't have to "balance" fringe theories. The reason that they're fringe is because they're only accepted by fringe POV pushers. You are attempting to allow anti-science belief sets into well written articles. And AIDS denialists don't get to name themselves...those with a strictly scientific interpretation of what causes AIDS get to call the AIDS denialists whatever we want. I was going for murderous nutjobs, but I was voted down. Now, despite your continued long winded and unreadable diatribes, what makes you think that fringe POV ideas should be anywhere but in an article about fringe ideas. You're right, the flat earth article should talk about the history and current belief in flat earth, but it should state, in one clear and unambiguous statement--this fails all science and is a fringe, nutjob, theory. There we go. I've simplified your life. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 21:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The resolution to these discussions have been decided. Ludwigs, find something else to do. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 02:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keepcalm: couldn't agree with you more. I'm maybe a little more tolerant of them than you are (just because I have an appreciation for the fact that someone(s) once said and believed these things to be true, and I think that should be reported; plus I'm a bit too kind-hearted

), but there are distinct limits to the silliness I'll allow to be propagated. --Ludwigs2 02:48, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To get back on topic, I think that the answer to A5's question, as I understand it, must be 'no'. WP:WEIGHT is essentially the portion of WP:NPOV that deals with quantity rather than quality of material. Depending on the circumstances, then, it might be appropriate to invoke WEIGHT when adding or removing material, depending on the situation. In other words, I don't think you could rule out its being used in either case. Hope this helps. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 00:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd tend to agree with you, except for the part about that summing up to 'no'. but this has all gotten ridiculously out of hand, so... --Ludwigs2 03:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

KCCO's attempt to summarize my (long) suggestion without reading it says, "Thus, the flat earthers should have their say at Earth and anywhere else they like, so long as additional material is put into the article for balance.", which is quite incorrect. Perhaps a look at the table will clear this up. Articles such as Earth are exactly where I'm suggesting it is OK to remove material on "flat earth". But if it's OK to remove fringe views wherever they appear, such as "flat earth" from Flat earth, then I worry about the consequences for Wikipedia. For instance, will an article on biblical creation eventually describe it as "the discredited theory that the Big Bang happened 6,000 years ago" as anything more detailed would give undue weight to "fringe" views? How exactly does Wikipedia plan to avoid such a fate, if removing otherwise relevant "fringe" views from articles under WP:WEIGHT is always acceptable? And if that is a valid interpretation of WP:WEIGHT, then shouldn't the policy guidelines say so explicitly? A5 (talk) 13:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think WEIGHT says that removing fringe views is always acceptable. It says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints [...] in proportion to the prominence of each. This is qualified by the context of the article in which it appears.

Of course, if there is a problem with the proportion of material covering a particular view in a particular article, that problem should be corrected. So much is implicit in all policy. But it is not going to be productive, I don't think, to try to frame additional policy text containing specific rules about exactly when it is necessary to add (or remove) mainstream (or fringe) material. That just invites wikilawyering from POV pushers. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sheff, granting what you say here as true, many, many problems arise from application. I mean, you know... I've seen editors calmly and coldly suggest that the majority of fringe articles (like Homeopathy) should be devoted to criticisms of homeopathy, since criticisms represent the majority (if not the entirety) of the scientific publications on the matter. that attitude strikes me as completely lacking in common sense - the article is on Homeopathy, so the majority of the article should discuss and describe homeopathy, with a relatively small but prominent section on critiques - but the attitude is technically supported by a literal, pedantic reading of the policy. undue weight was never intended to be used as a tool to reduce articles on fringe topics to articles on the criticisms of fringe topics, but there is a pronounced tendency to use it that way. clarity on that issue written into policy would be helpful.--Ludwigs2 01:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The one thing that should be clear, though, is that the mainstream opinion (WP:YESPOV) is that Homeopathy has been discredited and flies in the face of everything we know about science. We can document it in full, but the reader should be left with no ambiguity. Our focus on the topic should not lend any credence to the topic when the topic is WP:FRINGE, and we should not drown the reader with details which leave them confused as to what the mainstream view is. Structurally, the article should open with "homeopathy doesn't work" and each subsection should include at least one phrase like "this theory, which has been discredited, stated that..." The entire article shouldn't be criticism, but like any fringe topic it should be clear that the only opinions worth reporting are those of homeopathy's detractors. SDY (talk) 16:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

you know, this is a great example of what makes it difficult to discuss these things. I really don't have a problem with the basic idea of what you're saying (sure, we need to clarify that modern scientific theory and research don't support homeopathy), but the aggressive 'we must debunk it' attitude inappropriate for an encyclopedia. literally, if the chief editor of a commercial encyclopedia heard one of his writers voicing an attitude like that, that writer would find his final paycheck sitting on his desk. wikipedia is openly editable, but that doesn't mean we should lower our standard on encyclopedic content. homeopathy may not work, but it's no more dangerous than (say) astrology or New Age philosophy (meaning that it will only hurt people to the extent that people allow themselves to be deluded by it; which is pretty much true of most things in life). the obligation an encyclopedia has is to clearly and effectively describe what a topic is and what reliable sources say about it. If we find ourselves trying to argue that it's true or false, then we're engaged in advocacy, not encyclopedic writing. granting that 'science advocacy' is marginally preferable to 'fringe advocacy', I still believe that we shouldn't have advocacy at all, of any sort. --Ludwigs2 16:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We aren't debunking it, we're just reporting that it has been debunked. Homeopathy is debunked, and reliable sources say it is debunked. What is so wrong about reporting that? We're not advocating anything, we're simply reporting the consensus that exists in a clear and straightforward fashion. You're advocating that we have no point of view, which is not what the policy says. SDY (talk) 17:03, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

actually, no... Homeopathy hasn't been 'debunked' by science, because scientists don't 'debunk'. the most a scientist (when speaking as a professional) can say about homeopathy is that there is no evidence (to date) that homeopathic preparations have any physiological effect on the body, and that there is no basis in chemical and physical theories for thinking that homeopathic preparations should have an effect (which is damaging enough, to my mind). 'debunking' is a social/political act, where a 'debunker' goes well beyond the limits of scientific analysis in order to destroy an idea outright. that's what makes it a kind of advocacy. and while I understand why debunkers do what they do (they usually see themselves as defending poor, hapless, ignorant people from the influences of charlatans and delusional fanatics), they are not at all neutral in their efforts, and often sacrifice scientific rigor in order to push their debunking harder.

my favorite example is from orgone: Reich has this odd little fringe theory, and actually gets Albert Einstein to come take a look at it. Einstein arrives, looks at Reich's experiments, and then basically shrugs his shoulders and says 'I don't see what you're talking about' and leaves. No debunking, just a simple observation that there's no tangible evidence. debunkers come later, trying to insist that Reich's theory is wrong (rather than merely useless), and that Reich is a charlatan and criminal (rather than some guy stuck in a failed corner of research). the scientist dismisses the work, while the debunkers attack the man and the idea.

"reporting that it has been debunked" is fine, if you attribute the 'report' to the people who did the debunking. but that's not what happens, usually; many editors here want to report debunking as some kind of scientific consensus, which is (a) an incorrect assessment of the scientific position, and (b) debunking (advocacy) in its own right. that's not at all encyclopedic. --Ludwigs2 19:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The scientific consensus is that homeopathy has no measurable therapeutic effect, and that and no more is what I mean by "debunk." From what I am reading of what you are saying, you are not contesting that point, simply that the word used is poorly chosen since it implies some intent. I concede that the word is poorly chosen. The article by any measure would never use the word "debunk." "There is no evidence" in the context of something that has been adequately tested or investigated is essentially scientific jargon for "we think it's false but we reserve the right to change our minds" and I don't see a problem with calling a spade a spade when there's a possibility that the reader will not understand the jargon. Alternatively we could explain what is meant by "no evidence." This is one of wikipedia's problems: we don't define a target reader. If the expected reader is someone who is savvy about science, saying "there is no evidence" is plenty because they will know what that means (i.e. 97.5% certainty). If the expected reader is a middle school student, "there is no evidence" can very easily be read to mean "it might be true and it might be false, no one knows." (i.e. 50% certainty) The article should lead the savvy and the naive to the same conclusion about the topic. SDY (talk) 19:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The difficulty with trying to second-guess the reader in this way is that readers are often very aware of it. I'd be tempted to to say that middle-graders are particularly aware of it: there's no surer way I can think of to get a thirteen year old interested in something like homeopathy than to tell him it's wrong, with just a liiittle too much emphasis. that's why I like keeping things very detached and scientific. sure, a kid might not be able to evaluate what 'there is no evidence' means in the precise way a knowledgeable adult can, but the phrase is so non-confrontational that the kid can't make an emotional decision about it either. that leaves a kind of vacuum where the kid will either mark it off as a boring fact and forget about it, or (if curious) the kid will seek out more information (from elsewhere on the web, or by asking around). the problem with a lot of fringe science articles on wikipedia is that some editors get tied up in these strident efforts to make sure that no one can possibly take the topic seriously, and that's just counter-productive anyway you look at it. --Ludwigs2 20:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) It can be taken too far, I wholeheartedly agree. The problem is that advocates of pseudoscience try to abuse the language of science (q.v. "only a theory"), so keeping the articles jargon-free and plain spoken avoids that problem. There's no need to be judgmental (i.e. accusations of fraud), but there is a specific and active reason to go beyond the language of science and into common English. As the old yarn has it, "do not write to be understood, write so that you cannot be misunderstood." SDY (talk) 20:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That I'd agree with completely. I just wish it were easier to negotiate in practice. between the people being adamant on one side and the people being adamant on the other, the only consensus that ever gets developed is an agreement that we all have headaches.

--Ludwigs2 21:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral?

I am interested, especially in light of the article on abortion, why the neutral point of view policy does not extend to the unborn child. --T.M.M. Dowd (talk) 20:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AFAICS that area is covered neutrally, and is covered in as much depth it needs to be covered in that particular article, in the second paragraph of the Abortion#Abortion debate section and in the Abortion#Fetal pain debate subsection. Summary-style wikilinks are provided there to other articles which cover those topics in greater depth. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New template related to POV proposed

Please see here for my proposal of a new template, that would be put on articles that need to have their sources globalized - i.e. on articles that rely on a very similar set of sources likely representing one and the same POV.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Abusing POV

POV is a nice shield for people to hide behind. "YOUR EDIT BLA BLA IS POV BLA BLA" and "I DELETE THIS BECAUSE OF POV BLA BLA" is the two most popular lines on Wikipedia. I also see that some people dont even want to talk about this... too sad.--hnnvansier (talk) 14:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

believe me, that does suck. it only happens on certain pages, though; most of wikipedia is POV-warrior free. if you're having trouble like that on some page, let me know and I'll take a look. of course, you might be at fault, but if not, well... let's just say I dislike that kind of behavior.

--Ludwigs2 03:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant proposal at WP:NOR

I have introduced a policy proposal at WP:NOR that has some bearing on the NPOV and the treatment of fringe theories. Please join the discussion. --Phenylalanine (talk) 11:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism sections and articles

Template:RFCpolicy Can we get a consensus on them? NPOV as it stands should/does discourage them because they are solely devoted to one view point (in violation of the concept of neutrality, let alone the policy). However, people keep pointing to the "no consensus" line in WP:CFORK to justify their existence. So, discuss away. Sceptre ^(talk) 13:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

as far as I can tell, criticism sections are primarily used on wikipedia as a 'flame' tactic (though I've seen some artful people who've created criticism sections in order to hide criticism away to give the rest of the article that special angelic glow). I'm suspicious the instant I see one. there are useful places for criticism sections, I think (mainly on articles about academic topics, where the scholarly world presents explicit statements and criticisms), but otherwise they're just a sign that someone's not editing cooperatively. --Ludwigs2 03:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notable, verifiable viewpoints are as often critical of a topic as not. But since NPOV calls for all notable, verifiable views to be included they are necessary for a complete and balanced article. The only question here is whether they are broken out into their own section or rolled into the article. I prefer the latter and so does the MOS. Using the clause of NPOV that discourages criticism sections to claim policy demands removing critical viewpoints is silly. Odd nature (talk) 22:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. No one appears to be endorsing removing all criticism, it is simply a question of how it is presented. I agree that dedicated sections are either lazy or tendentious, and I have yet to see a dedicated article that doesn't look like a whinefest for people that dislike the subject. SDY (talk) 01:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a complete noobie around here, just starting to read what feels like 10,000 pages of wikipedia guidelines, rules, regulations, and edicts (that might be an over-exaggeration), but some articles just need to have a strong criticism section to remain neutral on the surface. Right now, I've just been reading medical articles--criticism seems to be supported by citations. But if I'm going to read an article on Flat Earth, which appears to be the gold standard of an article that needs criticism, I want a solid section telling me how it's bunk. Wouldn't a fork article that just has criticism be more POV than a balanced article that has both pro and con? SciMedKnowledge (talk) 16:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just to reply to one of your other concerns, you may want to read WP:YESPOV. We wouldn't include a "pro" side for flatearthism, since it's a WP:FRINGE topic. Like most things in Wikipedia, there may be a lot of rules, but they make a fair amount of intuitive sense and they exist primarily so that "right makes might" and the trolls don't take over by sheer numbers. SDY (talk) 02:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

of course it would, but (for a number of reasons) an article in which pro and con attitudes are integrated in the text is better than an article where pro and con arguments are separated into separate sections. just a short list:

pro sections/con sections can over estimate support or criticism (people click to one section, read all these pro or con statements, and come off with a very wrong impression)
pro sections/con sections are troll magnets: easy for someone to start edit warring to promote, remove, minimize or etc an entire section. not so easy when they have to work with integrated text
pro sections/con sections are bad from a writing perspective: it tends to read as choppy and dissociated
pro sections/con sections are bad from a logic perspective; the ideas presented in isolation makes it harder for readers to understand how they interrelate in real scholarly discussions --Ludwigs2 17:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.s. Sorry about the last edit summary - damned Safari autofill...

--Ludwigs2 17:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 238: / Line 238: @@
 == Criticism sections and articles ==
+{{RFCpolicy| section=Criticism sections and articles !! reason=A discussion to get a definitive consensus towards criticism articles, and whether they are neutral per NPOV. !! time= 15:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC) }}
-{{discussion top|[[WP:FORUMSHOP|Forum shopping]]. The discussion is at [[WT:CFORK#"Criticism(s) of ..."]], now with an RfC at [[WT:CFORK#Prior history]] --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 15:41, 21 March 2009 (UTC)}}
 Can we get a consensus on them? NPOV as it stands should/does discourage them because they are solely devoted to one view point (in violation of the concept of neutrality, let alone the policy). However, people keep pointing to the "no consensus" line in [[WP:CFORK]] to justify their existence. So, discuss away. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 13:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 259: / Line 258: @@
 :::::P.s. Sorry about the last edit summary - damned Safari autofill... {{=)}} --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 17:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
-{{discussion bottom}}