Talk:Ethnomethodology

Useful information: Durkheims Aphorism comes from: The Rules of Sociological Method, ed. Steven Lukes (New York, Free Press 1895), S.45): "Very often the disagreements were due to the refusal to admit at all, or to admit with reservations, our basic principle, that of the objective reality of social facts. It is therefore upon this principle that in the end everything rests, and everything comes back to." - via an ethnomethodological mailing list. --Vintagesound 10:48, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Fine description of ethnomethodolgy

As an early fan of ethnomethodology (without credentials), I found this to be a well-written description of the area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.207.7 (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

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CITATIONS NEEDED?

This article has far more citations than the Wikipedia entries for "Symbolic Interactionism", "Structural Functionalism", and/or "Social Psychology" - yet only Structural Functionalism has a red flag; that article contains no in-line citations or pagination. The latter half of the entry for "Sociology" dealing with modern versions of Sociology has only one citation. THIS ARTICLE NOW CONTAINS 46 CITATIONS. We would humbly submit that this is now the best documented site on Wikipedia dealing with the social sciences.

The above statement is quite accurate, and I have removed the 'citations missing' template. In future, when you see that an article contains an inappropriate template, you can always remove it yourself. Terraxos (talk) 05:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC).

However the citations are very confusing. What format is this? (Author:Year)? (Not Chicago, APA, or AAA) And why, when Garfinkel and Rawls is being cited, is the ref to Garflinkel:2002, which is co-authored? --Reagle (talk) 17:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

ASA (Author:Year:Page). To the best of my knowledge, the Rawls bits are authored by Rawls, as appearing in Garfinkel. The text is credited to Garfinkel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 02:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

WHY IS ETHNOMETHODOLOGY SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?

There are a number of reasons why ethnomethodology is so difficult to understand: [1] there is no unified ethnomethodological theory; [2] there is no agreed upon ethnomethodological method; [3] there are no independent criteria, other than that of authority, for the evaluation of ethnomethodological studies; [4] Garfinkel's writings are generally impenetrable for the student as they have now become so complex in terms of references that reading all of the sources referenced has becomes increasingly unrealistic; [5] Garfinkel's writings are generally impenetrable for the professional sociologist as they are counterintuitive relative to his/her training; [6] Garfinkel's writings are inconsistent in their use of terminology and formulation; [7] Garfinkel's writing style is completely idiosyncratic and convoluted to the point of being occaisionally incoherent - despite his adherents defense, there is really no excuse for this type of prose style; [8] references are made to authors who are generally outside of the general mainstream of sociology; [9] references to outside authors in philosophy are not to their systems, but to fragments of their systems, resulting in confusion as to how far ethnomethodology's use of these authors ideas extends to the rest of their theoretical systems; [10] ethnomethodologists rarely, if ever, provide critical commentary on Garfinkel's writings in fear of earning his displeasure and being deleted from the periodic lists of "approved" ethnomethodologists appearing in his texts; [11] ethnomethodology as a policy eschews discussion of theory, and hence any discussion of theoretical foundations; [12] ethnomethodology denies that it has a methodology of its own, thus avoiding having to work out a methodology of its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 14:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)````

ethno-method-o-logy

Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that the three roots are ethnos, methodos and logos? I am not really sure about this, but if this is the case, than it would make more sense the split the word into the three parts ethno-methodo-logy. Wouldn’t it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ozean (talk • contribs) 21:52, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ethno-method-ology. Trying to keep it in simple, colloquial English. If you must change it go with your second formulation. My concern is the misleading implications of the "logy" part - look it up in an English dictionary before you change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.221.218 (talk) 17:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The "Problem of Order"

What is the "Problem of Order", and exactly whose problem is it? Locate the class origins of this question and you have located the essence of traditional, mainstream sociology. Thomas Hobbes, from whom the concept emanates, was a Royalist during the English Revolution [17th cent.], fled England after Charles I was beheaded, and returned to England as a supporter of Charles II after the restoration of the monarchy.

Hobbes was by no stretch of the imagination a social democrat. His major interest, like the other social contract theorists of the time [Locke, etc.], was to provide a "secular" rationalization for maintaing the established power relationships [social order] of the time - and his place in that social order.

The problem of order in modern sociology [Parsons and his derivitives] manifests itself in the discipline's obsession with mechanism of social engineering: conformity, social control, and deviance. Even questions of social integration [racial, ethnic, class] are framed from the perspective of legitimizing the existing social order, not changing it.

Garfinkel's writing style: "Ethnomethodologist's tend..."

The question is: how do you know this? Did you do a survey of all ethnomethodologists? I would suggest that in the absence of any supporting data to support this formulation, you revert to the original sentence construction.

Please do not delete the comments of others on the talk page. For talk page policy see: Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_comments. In a case like this (where the comment has been addressed and the entry seems to be not necessary anymore), you might just want to reply to the comment with a comment of your own, e.g. something like “This has been addressed in today’s revision.” This would make the history of this article easier to understand.

In addition to this comment about talk page policy in general, I would also like to reformulate the original writer’s comment and generalize it to apply it to the whole article: I think the edits made by the two/three anonymous IPs (161.185.xxx.xxx, 68.198.221.218 and the “late” ASchutz) are really enhancing the quality of this article. I am deeply impressed by the amount of work that you invest for this article. However, the style of the article often seems strange for an encyclopedia. Formulations like the above “Ethnomethodologist's tend”, or others like “We use these authors rather than Garfinkel”, “Note that…” suggest some (authoritative, insider) person lecturing/teaching those who read the article. I think it would enhance the quality of the article if these kinds of statements could be evaded/changed. If I read the entry like it is now, it sounds more like an article for a journal, written by some ominous insider figure that claims particularly close insight into the workings and relations of those who do EM. I do not want to interrupt your work on the article, therefore I did not make any edits – in particular because there seems to be a team at work here. Since this team is so productive, I don't want to break the workflow.

The article has been enriched by many helpful citations – however, on some critical statements (critical because they express judgements), no source or (that would be the alternative) reason is given. An outstanding example is “Garfinkel's writing style has been described by some as abstruse, convoluted, and obscure in terms of both meaning and reference. Others have maintained that it is adequate to the task at hand, and unavoidable given the phenomena being described. Some maintain that it has gotten better over time, others maintain that it has gotten worse. Most have given up such arguments and accepted it for what it is.” I agree with the statement and I find the conclusion quite witty and entertaining, but I also find this problematic because it differs so greatly from what is the commonly accepted style of wikipedia. (And as ethnomethodologists we all know about member’s rules…)

Finally, I want say once more that this comment is intended as sympathetic feedback for the two anonymous editors and User:ASchutz. By the way: I sometimes have a hard time keeping in mind which number/person does what kind of edits - why don’t you register an account [1] at the wikipedia and use it to submit you edits? That would make keeping track for all involved much easier! --ozean (talk) 16:24, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

>The item was removed because with the reversion to the original formulation, the "correction" no longer had a context and was thus rendered meaningless to new readers. We did leave the original, and the proposed reversion up for a while prior to it's removal, but no one commented in what we thought was a timely manner. Note that this site is often subject to the pillaging of [apparently] drunken sociology students who make incoherent "corrections" and then disappear never to be heard from again. A sort of drive-by shooting of the text, if you will.

Format: One of the inherent problems with the Wikipedia format is that articles grow organically. Once they are started they have a structural life of their own. They are necessarily a pastiche. After they reach a certain size, they are uncorrectable as to structural format. So is the case with this one. We have no intention of reorganizing it at this stage in the game.

Contributions: If you want to contibute to the article, we do need a review of some of the more recent important studies [no CA please - they have their own website]. There is continuous reference in the literature to "studies" and "findings", but most appear as merely rumors for those who do not have access to apparently scarce, or hideously expensive, publications. How about a greatest hits package detailing the top five to ten studies? This would be helpful. After section #8 would appear to be the logical place for such an entry.

The Goal: The goal of this article is to be straightforward, accessible [as possible], and transparent to the novice - we have no interest in mystifying those new to the discipline or adding to the ethno-mytholoy of the discipline. As stated previously, there is very little critical commentary appearing in this literature, we do add some where we feel it is necessary. We believe that these "editorial comments" are fact based, fair, and meet the ultimate criteria of common sense. If you have objections to anything you see, raise it as an issue.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 15:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC) 

Ethnomethodology's Interest [Social Orders]: A Certain Parallel with Heideggerian Phenomenology

Social order of [surfing] = ways of [surfing] = "ways of being".

"...we shall speak of the constitution of Dasein and always mean by it "in its way to be"." [Martin Heidegger:1992:155]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 18:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Heidegger's position [Being and Time:G1927/E1962]: "Dasein's facticity consists of the determinations of its way of being-in-the-world" [William Blattner:2006:45]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 03:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

"What is to be determined is not an outward appearance of this entity (Dasein) but from the outset and throughout solely its way to be, not the what of that of which it is composed, but the how of its being and the character of this how [Martin Heidegger:1992:154].

In Being and Time, "Heidegger...claims to be doing a sort of hermeneutic (interpretation) that lays the basis for all other hermeneutics (interpretations) by showing that human beings are a set of meaningful social practices, and how these practices give rise to intelligibility, and themselves can be made intelligible" [Hubert Dreyfus:1991:34].

For Heidegger, "...Dasein is its praxis" [Theodore Kisiel:1993:304].

"To determine the worldhood ("character of the being of Dasein") of the world is to lay open in its structure, the how of the encounter" [Martin Heidegger:1992:169). —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 18:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

All Heidegger citations are from, "The History of the Concept of Time" [G1979/E1992]. This text is considered to be a rough/draft version of, "Being and Time" [G1927/E1962], covering many of the same topics, and more accessible to the non-specialist [its easier to read]. It was developed out of Heidegger's lecture notes: Summer Course 1925. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.185.150.187 (talk) 16:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"Coulon reversion"

I reverted this to the original as this sentence deals with the definition of the discipline- not someones belief regarding its historical function. The assertion that ethnomethodology replaces sociology would be disputed by a very large number of sociologiists at a very large number of universities accross the planet. It is empirically indefensible. Also, Garfinkel has nerver made such an assertion and has, in fact, stated as a matter of doctrine, that ethnomethodology specifically does not seek to replace traditional sociology, or offer remedies for any of its practices. If you would like to offer an actual proof for your assertion, I am all ears. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 04:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

If you want proof buy the book as I did. You can't call something which challenges the fundamental principles of sociology, sociological. I provided a citation for a statement taken from the book of the same name as this article. You can't provide a citation for your claim. --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 12:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

What a totally fatuous response [buy a book, the citation itself trumps the truth value of the claim].

The objection is to the statement as a summary definition, or descriptor, of Ethnomethodoloogy in this particular location. The first part of the statement is false and easily disproven by a little empirical investigation; the second part is a purely rhetorical assertion that cannot be substantiated. It is hard to earn readers when the opening statement to an article is both false and incapable of being substantiated. Unless, of course, your intent is to sabotage the article. You do sabotage the paragraph.

Tell me Jonathan: is the fact that the first part of the statement cited is untrue - by any standard of basic common sense - trumped by the fact that this untrue statement appears in a citation? The statement that Ethnomethodology is the successor of, and/or has replaced, American sociology is patently absurd. It is not justified by the reality on the ground.

A "radical breach" of the principles of traditional modes of sociological reasoning would require some generally agreed upon statement of these principles, and a definition of what a breach would consist of - let alone what a "radical breach" would consist of. This type of statement is rhetorically empty.

I have noticed in your bio that you have no expertise in this area, ether by training or actual experience. I would suggest that you show some good faith by reverting to the original yourself. How would you feel if we [there are three of us] went to your Wikipedia site and started mucking around.

If you can't make a substantive contribution to the article, you should leave it alone. Go play somewhere else.

My shelves are filled.

Actually I am a professional researcher who has been trained in research methods to doctoral level. I am currently using ethnomethodology in practice and have used the sociological model of classifying things based on the worldview of the researcher in a previous published study. The reason I chose ethnomethodology for my current study is that it is an inductive method that draws the classifications from the groups being investigated rather than imposing them on the group as sociologists do. You are attempting to misrepresent ethnomethodology beyond its actuality as an inductive data analysis method that replaces the deductive sociological one. --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 13:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

So you claim. The issue is that the statement (Coulon) that you have entered on the page is clearly false. I repeat for the third time: ethnomethodology is not the successor to American sociology. It has not replaced American sociology. What verification criteria would you use to approve or disprove the statement that Coulon has made? Clearly the statement must be testable as to its truth value?

We will discuss the above after we have resolved the issue of the Coulon citation. This is a disputational argument: you have made a claim, back it up or eliminate the citation. We can get to your objection with my interpretation of ethnomethodology after we resolve this one.````By the way, ethnomethodology is not an "inductive data analysis method", and there is nowhere in the article, or on this discussion page, where I use the words inductive or deductive to characterize ethnomethodology. You are making stuff up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.185.150.188 (talk) 14:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I have amended the article to descibe it as an alternative to the sociological approach as opposed to something which surpasses sociology. Hopefully you will accept this, as Enthnomethodology seeks to provide an alternative way of looking at the same data based on the ways the groups studied do things as opposed to the way the researcher sees that they do things as in sociology. --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 15:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

This is no good. Ethnomethodology is not an alternative approach to "data analysis" - you state this [literally]. It is not a form of "data analysis" at all - alternative or not.

There is no "American approach" to data analysis, there are various sociological approaches to data analysis depending on the methodology that one is using. The fact that some of these approaches are derived from American sociology does not mean that they are "American approaches", they are scientific approaches to the study of social phenomenon, which happen to have been formulatd by American sociologists.

Also, you made a statement citing Coulon, now you are modifying this statement to something else. This indicates that the original statement is not from Coulon, or that this is your - quite flexible - interpretation of something you read in Coulon.

Your use of English is very imprecise. You appear to interpret everything from a fractured formal Analytic perspective. Ethnomethodology cannot be accurately characterized from a formal Analytic perspective. You do this again with your, "In essence", tag on. Ethnomethodology is specifically not interested in developing formal Analytic categories of specific types of social activities. It is interested in the description of social orders. The fact that you are interested in this activity, and you mis-understand ethnomethodology to share your interests, does not make it so.

ASchutz (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I am reverting to the original. It is not incumbent upon any of us to have to defend a perfectly useful characterization of ethnomethodology written in perfectly coherent, grammatcally correct English, from someone who does not appear to have any expertise in the area and has problematic English language, and/or conceptual skills.

As previously stated, I have reviewed your bio - I stand by the statement appearing above. Based on your "contributions", I do not think that you have any expertise in this area. You haven't demonstrated any understanding of the area. Your statements indicate that you are having trouble conceptualizing the area, let alone commenting on it.

original research

Also, your "contributions" so far have consisted of latching on to other proples writings and inserting, or appending, single sentence tag lines [all conceptually incorrect, two of the three gramatically incorrect]. What you are actually doing is attempting to make other peoples work your own. You have been specifically accused of this on the Wiki page that you have linked to in your "bio". This is not noble stuff.

In the linked article appearing in Wiki. In the "history section" there is no indication that you had anything to do with the article. There are however a number of negative characterization of the unoriginality of your work, and your attempts at self-promotion as an "expert" in the "discussion" section. These statements resonate on this page.

Again, you need to disappear. Stick to IT. You don't need ethnomethdology to justify your work, and ethnomethodology does not need you - certainly this page doesn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 14:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

You say this Also, your "contributions" so far have consisted of latching on to other proples writings and inserting, or appending, single sentence tag lines. What you are actually doing is attempting to make other peoples work your own. You have been specifically accused of this on the Wiki page that you have linked to in your "bio". This is not noble stuff..

I simply refer you to WP:Verify and WP:OR and say that I am following the rules of Wikipedia by not producing original research as you are doing. I will be restoring my citation, which complies with WP:Verify and removing yours which falls within AP:OR. --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 19:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I wrote both of those original entries, and the revisions. Now you are back to defending a statement that I have told you is false, is provable as false, and you modified in order to make acceptable - but failed.

You are a very disturbed individual whose goal is appearently to sabotage this site. You are an intellectual fraud, and lacking in common sense. You cannot just go to sites and make entries about things which you know no nothing about [you list yourself as a wannabe "business major"]. Just because you can quote Coulon (out of context) and place the quote in an article (out of context) does not mean that you are competent in this area.

Have you no shame: why would you want to be called out on two sites as a fraud with your name attached to your entries, which are clearly both erroneous and do not even represent an original contribution.

If this is not reverted by Monday, I will contact a referee. If you want to be the laughing stock of both the social science and IT communities who use these sites, be my guest. Developing this type of reputation will not contribute to your "career" - except as a possible mental patient (A reference to Goffman, he was a sociologist - you are not). ASchutz (talk) 21:15, 24 April 2009 (UTC).

I have noted the statements of Jonathan Bishop appearing in the article in bold, and within brackets. Jonathan, you need to recognize your limitations - perhaps you are destined to merely sell stuff for a living, or perhaps you already understand that this is the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASchutz (talk • contribs) 03:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I obey the policies of the site. It is you that is attempting to sabotage it with your original research and unverified claims. With your statments above you are breaking WP:Civility and WP:AGF. That's four policies you have broken with one article. I suggest you use WP:Sandbox if you want to experiment. --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 11:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I have now re-organised the article and changed the references into Wikipedia's format. I have found references for some claims you made, but not all. I have also added other references. Like I said I am a professional researcher, I use many books to find answers to questions - you appear only to use one or two! --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC)