Talk:Gibraltar

Territorial disputes

We now have five alternative texts. I have put them in my preferred order with a couple of comments:

1.

Spain only accepts British sovereignty within the limits of the Rock and its port, claiming that the Treaty of Utrecht does not mention any territorial cession outside those limits. The UK argues that British sovereignty in the southern half of the isthmus that connects Gibraltar to the mainland is supported by continuous possession. It also claims the territorial waters and airspace around Gibraltar, arguing that both international customary and conventional law support British control.

This seems to make all the important points and is still commendably brief. If it's confirmed that the UK government does not entirely agree with the Spanish government on the exact territory covered by the T of U, this would be my preferred text.

2.

"Spain accepts British sovereignty only within the limits of the Rock. The UK claims sovereignty of half of the isthmus that connects the Rock to the mainland and on the waters surrounding Gibraltar, arguing that continuous possession of the isthmus should be taken into account and the modern concept of territorial waters is applicable.

This leaves out the T of U entirely, which may be appropriate if in fact the governments do entirely agree on the exact territory covered by the Treaty.

3.

"Spain further interprets the Treaty of Utrecht more restrictively than Britain does. For example, Spain disputes Britain's claim to sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain and does not recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters."

This may not give enough detail for our target audience, a new reader who doesn't have any background on the dispute. It also assumes that the interpretation of the Treaty does in fact differ importantly between the two sides, which we've yet to confirm or reject with appropriate references. But it still strikes me as acceptable.

4.

Spain interprets the Treaty of Utrecht more restrictively than Britain, disputing Britain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain and refusing to recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters. The Government of Gibraltar has repeatedly requested the Spanish Government refer the matter to the International Court of Justice without a response.

This is basically 3. with the addition of a debating point. A perfectly good one, but suitable only for the overview article. If we are to document the entire wrangle we could include an awful lot more before we get to this point. We do need to know: does the interpretation of the Treaty of Utrecht about the land ceded differ importantly between the two sides? Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

And less is often more:

“ Spain disputes Britain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain or to recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters. The Government of Gibraltar has requested the Spanish Government refer the matter to the ICJ without a response ”

.

I find the reluctance to mention the ICJ issue puzzling. Justin talk 14:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Would that be support for option 4, then? Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:39, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Let me add one more option, in order to illustrate why I think that some of the above view the question a bit too much from the British POV:

5.

Britain interprets the Treaty of Utrecht more expansively than Spain, disputing Spain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain and refusing to recognise any right of Spain to territorial waters around the Rock. Spain is helping the European Commission fend off a legal challenge by Gibraltar over a decision designating most of Gibraltar’s territorial waters as one of Spain’s protected nature sites under EU law.

Some editors may think that this text is biased towards the Spanish POV. Some others might think that similar texts (replacing Spain's by Britain's position) are too British POV. That's why I support the first option which only mentions the two positions and its arguments. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that's another debating point, even lower down the list than the other, but I take your point. That's support for option 1 then? Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:16, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

It is support for option 1.

It is also a kind request to include this last text for debate alongside the other ones as yet another option. I think that it will help put each option in perspective.

One question: Pfainuk offered some allegations to option number 1 which I think are reasonable. I think that making some changes in line with Pfainuk's allegations might help make it more accurate (and, therefore, more acceptable to all sides). Would anybody mind if I made those changes in option number 1?

• Adding "and its port" to "the Rock" in the first sentence
• Adding "and airspace" to "territorial waters" in the last sentence

Thank you -- Imalbornoz (talk) 16:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I've just added them, to save you the trouble. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:39, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Point 1: I oppose on the basis of accuracy. This strongly implies that the Rock and the port are a list of bits that Spain recognises. It isn't. Spain recognises the town and castle, and the port, defences and fortifications belonging to the town and castle. I also feel that it goes into far too much detail about territorial waters.

Point 2: I oppose on the basis of accuracy. Spain recognises British sovereignty beyond the Rock: specifically, Spain recognises the town and castle, and the port, defences and fortifications belonging to the town and castle. I also feel that it goes into far too much detail about territorial waters.

Point 3: I support. It gives a proper amount of detail and accurately represents Spain's position, giving examples. If readers want more detail then they are perfectly welcome to visit the two full articles that we have on the subject of the dispute. I'm willing to discuss the first sentence if necessary, but it must be accurate. Neither point 1 or point 2 is accurate.

Point 4: I find it amusing that you say that this point is too much detail, but a rather longer and more drawn out discussion of the territorial waters dispute is "commendably brief". As it happens, I do agree with you that it's a detail too far. But I don't accept that you can consistently say that this one is too much detail without also accepting that options 1 and 2 are also too much detail.

Point 5: "Some editors may think that this text is biased towards the Spanish POV". It's not a matter of thinking it's biased. It does not require much thought to realise that a text that says that the poor, innocent EU and Spain are being persecuted through the courts by the evil British is pretty clearly biased. Pfainuk talk 19:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

1 and 2 are innacurate I would oppose those as an option. 3 I could support, 4 I support. My personal preference only for its brevity and the avoidance of any dispute about Utrecht is my proposal:

6.

“ Spain disputes Britain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain or to recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters. The Government of Gibraltar has requested the Spanish Government refer the matter to the ICJ without a response ”

.

5. is biased and the author has deliberately been so to create a strawman to rubbish other options. This is decidedly pointy behaviour, not helpful, yet another example Richard of disruptive behaviour that you do not confront and indeed appear to encourage.

Pfainuk you know that I respect your opinion, could you perhaps elucidate why you think the mention of the ICJ is a point too far. The case I would put forward for mentioning it is that the ICJ is the only body that is capable of delivering a binding legal judgement that would settle the dispute once and for all. Do you not think it worthy of mention that one party is prepared to put its case to the test, whereas the other let us say prefers not to. Is that not significant? Justin talk 20:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it's worthy of mention, and is a significant point, but I'm not convinced that it belongs here.

(In principle, incidentally, the UN Security Council is also capable of giving a legally binding judgement - albeit one based on politics rather than international law. But given Britain's veto-wielding membership of the UNSC, there's only one side they could support - and I'd imagine the other members would rather feel that a British attempt to push that through would be a little too close to pushing national interests over international interests.)

This section, IMO, should deal only with the very basic points on each side of the dispute. That will mean leaving out points that people here consider significant. It will mean not mentioning even rather large details. The basic points I refer to are:

• The fact of the dispute, together with the basic positions of the three sides on the dispute as a whole. That means:
  • Spain: territorial integrity; British sovereignty restricted by Utrecht
  • UK: self-determination restricted by Utrecht; unrestricted British sovereignty
  • Gibraltar: unrestricted self-determination; unrestricted British sovereignty

• The independently relevant fact of the UN list, and the positions of Spain, and the UK and Gibraltar, on it. (As I've mentioned before, I don't entirely accept that this is independently relevant - but accept that removal will never get consensus.)

Everything in this section should be there to explain these points. Anything that does not explain these points should go in Disputed status of Gibraltar or Disputed status of the isthmus between Gibraltar and Spain. And if the reader wants more detail, we should and (I assume) will point them at those two articles.

The reason for this is because I think there's a significant risk of our three or four paragraphs turning into to seven or eight unless we're prepared to restrict ourselves. We already have two articles on the dispute and I think there's a significant risk of this article becoming a third. We need the basics in here, but the detail belongs on the dedicated articles. Pfainuk talk 21:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

OK I would be prepared to compromise and put that detail in Disputed status of Gibraltar or Disputed status of the isthmus between Gibraltar and Spain or possibly both. Thank you. I guess that leaves Option 3 as the basis for moving forward in my opinion. Justin talk 21:24, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

OK I would also compromise. If Justin is ready to put the detail about the GoG's wishes about the ICJ in another article, I can accept to do the same with the EC's ruling.

In that case, option 5bis would be:

5bis.

Britain interprets the Treaty of Utrecht more expansively than Spain, disputing Spain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain and refusing to recognise any right of Spain to territorial waters around the Rock.

Regarding option 3, I think it is symmetrical to number 5bis. I think that they run the risk of being biased by making a comparison between the two POVs. Would Justin and Pfainuk accept 5bis?

Options 5 and 4 have been discarded for options 5bis and 3, so I won't comment on them.

Regarding option 1:

• The long sentence in the ToU can be summarised as: "the limits expressly mentioned in the Treaty of Utrecht". That would bring us nearer to Painuk's first proposal. Looking at the map, I think that "the Rock and its port" also summarises it (but maybe I'm wrong, Pfainuk, what do you think?)
• The source from the government of Spain and other sources summarise the controversy about the territorial limits mentioning no further claims than the territorial waters, isthmus and airspace, so I think this should be enough for this overview article.

Would this solve Painuk's allegations of inaccuracy? -- Imalbornoz (talk) 00:00, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

In this case, 1 bis would be as follows:

1 bis.

Spain claims that British sovereignty is only acceptable in the areas explicitly mentioned by the Treaty of Utrecht The UK argues that British sovereignty in the southern half of the isthmus that connects Gibraltar to the mainland is supported by continuous possession. It also claims the territorial waters and airspace around Gibraltar, arguing that both international customary and conventional law support British control.

Would you find this to be more accurate and neutral? -- Imalbornoz (talk) 10:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Your version 1b still is still far too detailed as per my previous message. Richard has also argued that it is not clear what is explicitly mentioned in the Treaty of Utrecht.

On your version 5b (and noting in passing that, assuming I understand your use of the word "symmetrical" correctly, your 3 and 5b are not "symmetrical"), could you explain what your objection to Justin's original version is - i.e. your version 4 without the second sentence? I mean, since you're insisting it be changed, one assumes that you must have have an objection? Pfainuk talk 18:34, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Given your silence on this matter, perhaps we could assume that you accept the first sentence of Justin's proposal for inclusion? Pfainuk talk 18:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been very busy lately. I think I have explained my position several times, but without success (it seems). Let's see if I can be clearer this time so that we can find a consensus:

• First of all, I think that sentence is bad English (i.e. if you read it again, you'll see that it makes no sense: what is the alternative clause for "or to recognize..."?)
• Also, it mentions territorial waters and the isthmus but it does not mention airspace (I thought you said that this was not right).
• In any case, most importantly, I think that it runs the risk of being a bit biased. We should should not have to choose between saying that Spain disputes/doesn't recognize British sovereignty and the opposite (which is also true). I would not accept Justin's sentence for the same reasons that you wouldn't accept the following one:

“ Britain disputes Spain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain or to recognise any right of Spain to the territorial waters around Gibraltar. ”

• There's an alternative: let's just make the effort to agree on a neutral paragraph that explains both positions. I agree that we shouldn't make it too long (your first proposal was about 40 words long, so I would agree to make it in less than 80 words).

Am I very unreasonable? -- Imalbornoz (talk) 10:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not see the words "or to recognize..." in the first sentence of the proposal I cited, which I remind you was:

Spain interprets the Treaty of Utrecht more restrictively than Britain, disputing Britain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain and refusing to recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters.

Second point, I think you ought to read my points more closely because you are entirely misinterpreting them. I have never, at any point, said that I consider airspace dispute to be significant enough for inclusion on its own merits. I have used it as an alternative example to the territorial waters dispute, which is not the same thing at all.

Third point, if you think it's biased then why on earth are you proposing in its place something that you have stated is the exact equivalent on the other side? In what way is proposing things that you consider unacceptably POV helpful in finding consensus? Pfainuk talk 18:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's another draft (omitting references for the moment), using Pfainuk's excellent headings which I repeat first, and everyone else's ideas:

           * The fact of the dispute, together with the basic positions of the three sides on the dispute as a whole. That means:
                 o Spain: territorial integrity; British sovereignty restricted by Utrecht
                 o UK: self-determination restricted by Utrecht; unrestricted British sovereignty
                 o Gibraltar: unrestricted self-determination; unrestricted British sovereignty

           * The independently relevant fact of the UN list, and the positions of Spain, and the UK and Gibraltar, on it.

“ The sovereignty of Gibraltar is agreed to be British, but Spain requests its return, citing its territorial integrity. Additionally, Spain's position is that the Treaty of Utrecht does not give Britain sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain, or over any territorial waters.

The British Government argues that Britain has full and unrestricted sovereignty over all the territory of modern Gibraltar. It supports Gibraltarian self-determination, subject to the stipulation of the Treaty of Utrecht, under which, if Britain wishes to alienate its rights in Gibraltar, they must first be offered to the crown of Spain.

The Gibraltarian government argues that Gibraltarian self-determination is not restricted by the Treaty of Utrecht or any other consideration, otherwise agreeing with the British view.

Gibraltar remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories. Both the British and Gibraltarian governments assert that Gibraltar has been effectively decolonised. Spain opposes any attempt to remove it from this list and Spanish commentators still commonly describe Gibraltar as a colony.

”

A bit longer than ideal, but still worth including if it, or some variant, can bring consensus. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I will accept this proposal as-is, but would suggest that the second sentence of the first paragraph might be better off worded in such a way as to not appear to be a definitive list? While the isthmus and territorial waters are the main points of contention, Spain's position on airspace and land Gibraltar has reclaimed from the sea - along with, I believe, other matters - is similar (on that latter point, this is linked to territorial waters: Spain believes that land reclaimed from the sea was originally in Spanish waters).

One other thing, the adjective form of "Gibraltar" is "Gibraltar". "Gibraltarian" explicitly refers to people. So, "Both the British and Gibraltar governments" and "Gibraltar self-determination" would be more appropriate. Pfainuk talk 19:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree mostly, but I suggest a couple of precisions. I think they should not be controversial:

• "Additionally, Spain's position (...) or over any territorial waters." -> "Additionally, Spain's position (...) nor over any territorial waters or airspace." That way, we cover all the significant territorial issues (why give a sample of two issues when the universe of relevant issues amounts to three?)
• "(...) over all the territory of modern Gibraltar." -> "(...) over the Rock and the southern part of the isthmus, and the right to control its territorial waters and airspace." I'm not sure what "modern" Gibraltar is according to each POV... Let's mention the objective geographical places and avoid the controversy. Besides, I'm not too sure that Britain claims sovereignty on territorial waters and airspace (I think it always talks about "control").
• "Gibraltar remains in (...)" -> "Gibraltar is in (...) since 1946." The word remains seemed (to me) a bit awkward. If we try to say that it was included long ago, I think it's better to say it this way.
• Let's solve the first (and larger) part of the text and we will discuss about the last paragraph later on. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 19:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the isthmus, water and airspace are necessarily the sum total of what Spain disputes. If they are, I don't believe that such a list is necessarily accurate in implication, given the issues with land reclamation. Better to treat territorial waters and the isthmus as examples IMO.

The territory of modern Gibraltar would be the territory on which Gibraltar exists on the ground. In the same way, we use a map of modern Gibraltar, based on the realities on the ground. Spain disputes the legality of British control of the isthmus, but does not dispute the fact of it.

You state that Britain doesn't claim to have sovereignty over territorial waters and airspace. Could you give us an exceptional source to demonstrate this exceptional claim please? We already have sources cited on this page that make the opposite point, and logic would seem to support them: it would seem distinctly strange for the British to argue that they were infringing Spanish rights by exercising control over territorial waters and airspace, as you seem to be suggesting.

Your last point I can accept, given a grammatical correction. The word "since" in English, unlike in French and Spanish, always takes the past tense. Gibraltar has been... is better. Pfainuk talk 20:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, "has been..." then, thanks.

Regarding the words "control" or "sovereignty", I was only talking about the "preference" of the UK Gvt, not its official position. Most importantly, I think this is a side issue (and I'm sorry to have got us sidetracked with it).

Regarding the term "modern Gibraltar", I don't think it is uncontroversial and neutral: it's not clear that the isthmus -the airport and everything- is Gibraltar (or "modern Gibraltar"). Most papers refer to the Rock and the isthmus, not to the territory of "modern Gibraltar". I would ask you to look for a less controversial term. Doesn't the UK Government talk about "the Rock and the isthmus"? (look here in page 58, for example).

Regarding the list of issues in the dispute, let's look at the Spanish and British official positions:

• the official report by the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 2008: "La controversia sobre los límites del territorio cedido afecta al istmo, a las aguas territoriales y al espacio aéreo." ("The controversy regarding the limits of the territory affects the isthmus, the territorial waters and the air space").[3]
• a memorandum submitted by the UK FCO to the Parliament in 2008: "Sovereignty is also an ongoing issue for Gibraltar, where Spain recognises British sovereignty over the Rock, but not over the isthmus, waters surrounding the Rock (with the exception of the port), or adjoining the isthmus, or airspace over the entire Territory."[4]

According to what they officially say, these are the issues that UK and Spain consider noteworthy. Have you found any other official position regarding this issue that says otherwise? -- Imalbornoz (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, try this:

“ The sovereignty of the Rock and the port are agreed to be British, but Spain requests their return, citing its territorial integrity. Additionally, Spain's position is that the Treaty of Utrecht does not give Britain sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain, nor certain other rights including territorial waters.

The British Government argues that Britain has full and unrestricted sovereignty over the southern part of the isthmus as well as the Rock, with all attached rights. It supports Gibraltar's self-determination, subject to the stipulation of the Treaty of Utrecht, under which, if Britain wishes to alienate its rights in Gibraltar, they must first be offered to the crown of Spain.

The Gibraltar government argues that Gibraltar self-determination is not restricted by the Treaty of Utrecht or any other consideration, otherwise agreeing with the British view.

Gibraltar has been on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories since its inception. Both the British and Gibraltar governments assert that Gibraltar has been effectively decolonised. Spain opposes any attempt to remove it from this list and Spanish commentators still commonly describe Gibraltar as a colony.

”

Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the first three paragraphs. Like I said before, I think the last one needs some changes, but we can talk about it right after we reach some consensus on the larger part of the text. Thank you very much for all the good work, Richard. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed the words "if Britain wishes to alienate its rights in Gibraltar". One problem with quoting 300-year old documents is that sometimes words have changed in meaning. The word "alienate" does not work in this sentence in modern English IMO, and the entire sentence seems a touch laboured. Maybe:

It argues that Gibraltar has a right to self-determination, subject to the Treaty of Utrecht, which states that if Britain chooses to leave Gibraltar the territory must be offered to Spain.

I also notice that you mention sovereignty being "agreed to be British" without first explaining who is agreeing. I believe it would be better to introduce the fact of the dispute before going into details of people's positions on it.

The phrase "with all attached rights" also seems a touch awkward to me. If "modern Gibraltar" is a problem for Imalbornoz (and I don't accept his reasoning: there is no plausible doubt that the isthmus, including the airport, are controlled by Gibraltar), then it would be better for us to come up with a different phrase that means the same thing. I note that I cannot account for his claim that the British government uses the phrase "the rock and the isthmus".

I also still don't think I can go with the "Rock and the port". If we're listing the areas that Spain recognises as British, we should list the areas that Spain recognises as British. That means the town and castle, and their port, fortifications and defences. Pfainuk talk 19:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The trouble is that the phraseology of the T of U was never precise enough to draw a fully-agreed line on any map, or on the ground. Approximately, the present disagreements have to do with the southern part of the isthmus and so on, but if we try for precision we will be setting ourselves up to fail. I suggest that we actually need to give a correct, but approximate guide. I think it's unambiguously true that the G of S recognizes British sovereignty over the Rock and the port? It may recognize other snippets as well, but we will do well to leave them out of this article. Anyway, here's a redraft, using your other points:

“ Spain requests the return of Gibraltar to its sovereignty, citing Spanish territorial integrity, while agreeing that the Rock and the port are at present British. Additionally, Spain's position is that under the Treaty of Utrecht Britain does not have sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain, nor certain other rights including territorial waters.

The British Government argues that Britain has full and unrestricted sovereignty over the southern part of the isthmus as well as the Rock, with all attached rights, deriving both from the Treaty of Utrecht and from long-continued possession. It supports Gibraltar's self-determination, subject to the Treaty of Utrecht, which states that if Britain chooses to leave Gibraltar the territory must be offered to Spain.

The Gibraltar government argues that Gibraltar's self-determination is not restricted by the Treaty of Utrecht or any other consideration, otherwise agreeing with the British view.

Gibraltar has been on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories since its inception. Spain opposes any attempt to remove it from this list and Spanish commentators still commonly describe Gibraltar as a colony. Both the British and Gibraltar governments assert that Gibraltar has been effectively decolonised.

”

Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:02, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I have been away for a few days but rejoining the discussion I would oppose this suggestion as it omits clearly relevant facts. Gibraltar was listed as colony only because Britain chose to list it, this fact is relevant. This fact becomes relevant as a result of from function creep where the text has grown and grown and grown, so that where previously a sentence would have been more than adequate it is now giving more and more prominence to the dispute and its no longer appropriate for an overview. This could be covered in a few words instead we're stretching it into an opus again. Just like adding two words self-governing was stretched into an opus to avoid mentioning those two words. Every attempt to add text to this article, no matter how brief is turned into an excuse to add more and more text to give additional prominince to territorial claims. I also have to observe that the reasons for rejecting shorter versions don't stand up to scrutiny. Its becoming a WP:COATRACK as feared and I'd personally just give up on the whole idea if we're going down this route. Sorry but I really do have very strong feelinsg about this and I oppose this. Justin talk 13:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that Pfainuk's suggestions are reasonable, so long as we can find a text brief enough to satisfy them (I think it's possible). If we need other ideas for the wording, I think we can use some official diplomatic sources (who usually are very precise when they write official papers) -> you can take a look at the official papers from the Foreign Affairs Offices from Spain and the UK that I cited above.

I think that Richard's text is a very good effort to satisfy Pfainuk's (and my) suggestions. Thank you.

Regarding Justin's comment, if what he means is that he will agree with the text if we mention the UK's role in including Gibraltar in the UN list, I am ready to agree for the sake of consensus. Anyway, I have not yet given my opinion about the last paragraph (I prefer to reach consensus on the larger part of the text). Thank you. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 14:04, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

No I am saying I am not prepared to accept it because it has become way too big for an overview article. We need to go back to the brief comments that were originally proposed and actually address what was wrong with those. I waited patiently for you to explain your objection to them and you didn't. Instead we have more and more devoted to the issue and I'm saying its too much. So no I won't accept it going into the article. Justin talk 15:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget that the text above would allow us to dispense with the present paragraph:

"More recently, the Spanish Government has started to claim Gibraltar's territorial waters insisting that the territory has none. Spain has reverted to tactics such as listing Gibraltar's waters as Spanish under European Union mechanisms, despite the UK previously having registered the said territorial waters using the same mechanism. Although international law recognises Gibraltar's waters (and its right to claim a greater area) Spain is loath to agree. The European Union is presently reviewing the matter but traditionally does not take the views of Gibraltar into account, preferring to consider the dispute as bilateral so as not to offend the sovereignty sentiments of its more influential member states." which seems clearly pointy, POV, and verbose, making far fewer points than our present proposal in over half the amount of space. And I too would be prepared to include the UK's role in putting Gibraltar on the UN list if this would bring agreement by all editors, but I really don't see it as required for this overview. Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

None of which addresses the point that the proposed text is of itself needlessly verbose, requiring more points to address neutrality issues, which in turn will require more points to address neutrality issues. Sorry but I oppose this for that reason, it will simply get worse and grow from here. Imalbornoz is already talking about addressing another paragraph, which from experience always mean even more verbose coverage. Please address the issue, what was wrong with the earlier briefer text? Its been rejected for no good reason to reach the state where more and more unnecessary detail is added. Detail goes into the Disputed article, not here. Justin talk 17:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps if we stay with the developing consensus text above, which is about the same length as the text it will be replacing, rather than expand further? Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Here's a wording of mine:

While recognising British sovereignty in Gibraltar, Spain requests that the territory be returned to its rule, citing the principle of territorial integrity. Spain also argues that the extent of British sovereignty is limited by the Treaty of Utrecht, and disputes the location of the border.

Britain rejects this request, arguing that Gibraltar has the right to self-determination, subject only to a provision of the Treaty of Utrecht that states that, should Britain withdraw, the territory must be offered to Spain. Britain further argues that, under international law, unrestricted British sovereignty extends to the whole of the territory within its existing borders.

Gibraltar, for its part, argues that its people have an unrestricted right to self-determination, otherwise agreeing with Britain.

Britain added Gibraltar to the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories in 1946, but now argues, alongside Gibraltar, that the territory has been effectively decolonised and thus should be removed. Spain opposes removal, describing Gibraltar as a "colonial situation".

Significant points:

• This does not mention "modern Gibraltar", but makes it clear what Britain's position is.
• It does not attempt to detail either side's arguments, putting them both in general terms only. Notably, it does not attempt to define Spain's position on where the border is.
• It notes the origin of Gibraltar's inclusion on the UN list.
• It removes the sentence about Spanish commentators, and replaces it with a more appropriate Spanish government position sourced from the commonly cited Spanish government document (page 17).
• It is significantly shorter than previous proposals, while effectively putting across the points that need to be put across. Pfainuk talk 19:04, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Richard Keatinge (talk) 19:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but again no. We have suggestions above for brief coverage which are appropriate for an overview. The expanded text I oppose, there is more to Gibraltar than territorial disputes. Too verbose. I also question why you insist on persisting with a text I have indicated a problem with. This to my mind demonstrates a lack of respect to me, in that you're brushing aside any views that I have. Richard, when Imalbornoz was the sole voice of dissent you defended his position making allegations I was being uncivil, allegations you repeated at AN/I.

I suggest returning to the point where there was general agreement and proceed from there, you're significantly divergent from a point I'd support and now propose moving further in that direction. My opposition to that move will only harden. Justin talk 20:59, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Would you care to suggest a text? Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I already have look above you, it really doesn't help to suggest I haven't. I suggest coverage needs to be brief, at most a few sentences. Justin talk 22:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

We have seven sentences at present (awaiting comments on the last paragraph in particular), replacing about the same amount of text.

Warning, parody alert:

Your suggestion above is, I think, "Spain disputes Britain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain or to recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters." Or, possibly, "The UK disputes Spain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting the Rock with the rest of Spain or to recognise any right of Spain to its territorial rights". I hope that the symmetry of these two expressions may be sufficient to indicate their unsuitability. Richard Keatinge (talk) 08:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Regarding your "parody", unhelpful Richard, the two sentences are rather obviously not in the least symmetric. The first is reasonable, the second is not and serves only as a strawman to paint the first as unreasonable. If you're reduced to that sort of petty tactic then obviously you lack confidence in your content suggestion. Parody Alert: So Richard, when did you stop beating your wife?

Still oppose, implacably so now. Justin talk 09:30, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Sadly we may need to proceed with a consensus that doesn't include Justin. We await further comment, but for the moment the proposal is to remove the present comments:

More recently, the Spanish Government has started to claim Gibraltar's territorial waters insisting that the territory has none. Spain has reverted to tactics such as listing Gibraltar's waters as Spanish under European Union mechanisms, despite the UK previously having registered the said territorial waters using the same mechanism. Although international law recognises Gibraltar's waters (and its right to claim a greater area) Spain is loath to agree. The European Union is presently reviewing the matter but traditionally does not take the views of Gibraltar into account, preferring to consider the dispute as bilateral so as not to offend the sovereignty sentiments of its more influential member states. Both the British and Gibraltar governments assert that Gibraltar has been effectively decolonised. On the other hand, Gibraltar remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories. Spain opposes any attempt to remove it from this list and Spanish commentators still commonly describe Gibraltar as a colony.

And replace with:

While recognising British sovereignty in Gibraltar, Spain requests that the territory be returned to its rule, citing the principle of territorial integrity. Spain also argues that the extent of British sovereignty is limited by the Treaty of Utrecht, and disputes the location of the border.

Britain rejects this request, arguing that Gibraltar has the right to self-determination, subject only to a provision of the Treaty of Utrecht that states that, should Britain withdraw, the territory must be offered to Spain. Britain further argues that, under international law, unrestricted British sovereignty extends to the whole of the territory within its existing borders.

Gibraltar, for its part, argues that its people have an unrestricted right to self-determination, otherwise agreeing with Britain.

Britain added Gibraltar to the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories in 1946, but now argues, alongside Gibraltar, that the territory has been effectively decolonised and thus should be removed. Spain opposes removal, describing Gibraltar as a "colonial situation".

As you'll see, these are almost exactly the same length, and the second seems very clearly better on all criteria relevant to an encyclopedia. I propose to make a bold edit soon, unless anyone can come up with any relevant comments. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• OpposeAh, we see an obvious double standard here. I make a reasonable content suggestion and my comments are ignored time and time again. Richard is already talking of imposing his solution again. This is not acceptable, nor is it consensus. To achieve consensus requires addressing my comments.

I oppose this text as too verbose and unsuitable to an overview. I have proposed a more compact alternative, which has been ignored, for no good reason whatsoever. So I remain implacably opposed to this suggestion. The only way you can then impose it is by tag team edit warring as you did previously but don't pretend this is "consensus". Are you announcing this as your intention? Justin talk 13:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Minor query, the text says that Britain states the Gibraltarians should have self detirmination, then the text says that the gibraltarians believe they have self detirmination but otherwise agree with the British - implying the British /don't/ agree with self detirmination. I do agree that the old text is far too casual and open to bias, I remain convinced that a less verbose solution is preferable. --Narson ~ Talk • 14:10, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, I suppose there is a possible ambiguity. What about

While recognising British sovereignty in Gibraltar, Spain requests that the territory be returned to its rule, citing the principle of territorial integrity. Spain also argues that the extent of British sovereignty is limited by the Treaty of Utrecht, and disputes the location of the border.

Britain rejects this request, arguing that Gibraltar has the right to self-determination, subject only to a provision of the Treaty of Utrecht that states that, should Britain withdraw, the territory must be offered to Spain. Britain further argues that, under international law, unrestricted British sovereignty extends to the whole of the territory within its present de facto limits.

Gibraltar argues that its right to self-determination is unrestricted, otherwise agreeing with Britain.

Britain added Gibraltar to the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories in 1946, but now argues, alongside Gibraltar, that the territory has been effectively decolonised and thus should be removed. Spain opposes removal, describing Gibraltar as a "colonial situation".

Alternative texts would be welcome, of course, and if they're shorter and still fulfil all other criteria for a major issue in Gibraltar's current politics, that would be great. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:51, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I oppose this suggestion as too verbose and request again an explanation for ignoring suggestions for much briefer texts that cover only the pertinent issues appropriate for an overview. Justin talk 20:19, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggested texts would naturally be welcome. Or an alternative list of the pertinent issues might move matters forward. Pfainuk's list seems to have achieved a good measure of acceptance.

I suppose we could abbreviate the present proposal slightly by removing the remark on the way that Gibraltar appeared on the NSGT list.

I have made a couple of minor changes to the last version above - de facto limits rather than borders, in case anyone either nitpicks about airspace and waters not having conventional borders, or gets upset about any hint that there is an international land border with Spain. Richard Keatinge (talk) 22:53, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Both sides do agree that there is an international land border with Spain. They don't agree on where it is, but no significant viewpoint disputes the fact that it exists.

More to the point, Spain does not dispute the fact of British control of the isthmus. Or are you seriously suggesting that the Spanish government think there's a whole line of border controls at the southern end of the isthmus that no-one has noticed? This notion makes no sense at all and has no basis whatsoever in sources. So, I oppose this change. Pfainuk talk 11:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Again Richard, I have proposed a text, which you're studiously ignoring providing a criticism relevant to wikipedia's policies and your only response has been a rather poor attempt to construct a rather pathetic strawman to criticise by comparison with a clear partisan text. That is not relevant and so I reject it. The more you ask for a proposal to be provided, when one already has, the clearer it appears to me that you're not seriously engaged in trying to build a consensus.

Worse to my mind is continuing to push your own text, which being more verbose introduces further problems by requiring additional text to counterpoint its tendency to favour a particular position. Its been criticised as too verbose but rather than addressing the point you continue pushing it. My preference is to focus on and discuss a content proposal but a) pushing a text I've already indicated my opposition to and b) pretending that my proposal doesn't exist doesn't leave much room for discussion. And again I oppose this change. Justin talk 14:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I note what you've written, Justin. An alternative text with some credibility would really help. So far you haven't given us one, and I'm sorry that you can't see the rather obvious flaws in your suggestion. Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:06, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Pfainuk for constructive comments. I see your point and no, I wasn't trying to rewrite reality. What about this version?

While recognising British sovereignty in Gibraltar, Spain requests that the territory be returned to its rule, citing the principle of territorial integrity. Spain also claims the isthmus northwards from the Rock, and territorial waters and other adjuncts, arguing that these were not ceded by the Treaty of Utrecht.

Britain rejects this request, arguing that Gibraltar has the right to self-determination, subject only to a provision of the Treaty of Utrecht that states that, should Britain withdraw, the territory must be offered to Spain. Britain further argues that, under international law, unrestricted British sovereignty extends to the whole of the territory within its present de facto limits.

Gibraltar argues that its right to self-determination is unrestricted, otherwise agreeing with Britain.

Britain added Gibraltar to the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories in 1946, but now argues, alongside Gibraltar, that the territory has been effectively decolonised and thus should be removed. Spain opposes removal, describing Gibraltar as a "colonial situation".

Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:06, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Too verbose, and I note the editor responsible doesn't appear to be listening, a somewhat vital part of the consensus building process. Again you have not given a reasonable reason to reject my less verbose suggestion; I give you my reasons for rejecting this and you simply persist with more of the same. Not helpful Richard, not helpful at all. Justin talk 21:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Good Work All

It seems you are coming to a conclusion on these issues. It's nice to see people working together to achieve a good result. I apologize for my absence here (family illnesses and a death) but I am pleased to see the work. Thanks for the reordering things Richard, I think that was the necessary move. JodyB _talk 12:15, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to disturb you, but I wonder if you feel able at this stage to give substantive advice on our present problem? Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Listening to all opinions would be a good start and not threatening to impose your solution as you have done previously - I observe that there is some support for my position now. Justin talk 15:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

More territorial disputes

We have been working on Pfainuk's suggestion, which seemed to attain widespread support:

This section, IMO, should deal only with the very basic points on each side of the dispute. That will mean leaving out points that people here consider significant. It will mean not mentioning even rather large details. The basic points I refer to are:

• The fact of the dispute, together with the basic positions of the three sides on the dispute as a whole. That means:
  • Spain: territorial integrity; British sovereignty restricted by Utrecht
  • UK: self-determination restricted by Utrecht; unrestricted British sovereignty
  • Gibraltar: unrestricted self-determination; unrestricted British sovereignty

• The independently relevant fact of the UN list, and the positions of Spain, and the UK and Gibraltar, on it.

Attempts to put this into grammatical English, with one point added at Justin's insistence, have so far led us to:

While recognising British sovereignty in Gibraltar, Spain requests that the territory be returned to its rule, citing the principle of territorial integrity. Spain also claims the isthmus northwards from the Rock, and territorial waters and other adjuncts, arguing that these were not ceded by the Treaty of Utrecht.

Britain rejects this request, arguing that Gibraltar has the right to self-determination, subject only to a prov,ision of the Treaty of Utrecht that states that, should Britain withdraw, the territory must be offered to Spain. Britain further argues that, under international law, unrestricted British sovereignty extends to the whole of the territory within its present de facto limits.

Gibraltar argues that its right to self-determination is unrestricted, otherwise agreeing with Britain.

Britain added Gibraltar to the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories in 1946, but now argues, alongside Gibraltar, that the territory has been effectively decolonised and thus should be removed. Spain opposes removal, describing Gibraltar as a "colonial situation".

This would replace the present text:

More recently, the Spanish Government has started to claim Gibraltar's territorial waters insisting that the territory has none. Spain has reverted to tactics such as listing Gibraltar's waters as Spanish under European Union mechanisms, despite the UK previously having registered the said territorial waters using the same mechanism. Although international law recognises Gibraltar's waters (and its right to claim a greater area) Spain is loath to agree. The European Union is presently reviewing the matter but traditionally does not take the views of Gibraltar into account, preferring to consider the dispute as bilateral so as not to offend the sovereignty sentiments of its more influential member states. Both the British and Gibraltar governments assert that Gibraltar has been effectively decolonised. On the other hand, Gibraltar remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories. Spain opposes any attempt to remove it from this list and Spanish commentators still commonly describe Gibraltar as a colony.

We have a less verbose counter-suggestion from Justin:

Spain disputes Britain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain or to recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters.

This is clearly unsatisfactory, as can be seen from its mirror image from the other side of the dispute:

The UK disputes Spain's sovereignty over the isthmus connecting the Rock with the rest of Spain or to recognise any right of Spain to its territorial rights.

Both prejudge the relevant claims.

We are not in a hurry, but this change has now received a lot of attention. It's about time to make the edit. Richard Keatinge (talk) 08:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Too verbose, and your attempt to rubbish my suggestion with a deliberately POV text is not helpful; this isn't grounds that are relevant to wikipedia nor a reasonable means of discussing content on wikipedia. Nor does my content suggestion prejudge claims in any manner. Again I ask is it your intention to tag team edit war your content into the article. You're refusing to discuss this in a reasonable manner or to take criticism on board, you keep talking about imposing this edit and you have a track record of doing so. I will oppose any attempt to do so and will seek admin intervention. Justin talk 09:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
• Oh lord. False equals. I may agree on many points but you lost me on the 'We can just switch it around and it is all the same'. NPOV is not viewing both situations as equal, because they are not. The claims we should not prejudge, correct, but the situation itself is not the same. Both Spain and the UK claim Sovereignty over the disputed area. The difference is that the UK exercises sovereignty over it while Spain does not. My issue with the reverse is it implies the opposite. That Spain has the land over which it claims sovereignty and Britain does not have it. --Narson ~ Talk • 18:54, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

My point exactly, worse still is the deliberate use of POV terms to make the second sentence deliberately POV and claiming the two are equivalent. This is simply obstructive. Justin talk 20:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, given the situation on the ground the two comments aren't quite precisely symmetrical. The point is that in a disputed area we need to write for the opponent. By this criterion, sorry, both of these fail badly. I've recently read through the entire talk archives of this page and I'd really like to avoid the wounded feelings that have resulted from good-faith, but ill-judged, attempts to make this a better encyclopedia. I'd really, really like to obtain a consensus on a clear, NPOV text that outlines all the major issues. I think we're very close. Kudos again to Pfainuk for his outline of the main points. Richard Keatinge (talk) 23:11, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

That is nonsense, the two texts aren't remotely symmetrical. Your argument boils down to this: compare apple with orange and claim that apple is biased. No, those aren't grounds for deciding content on wikipedia. It doesn't fail and lets get down to it, its not the text, its the editor who wrote it. You've personally vetoed each and every content suggestion I've made. This is not about NPOV its about ownership.

We're not even remotely close whilst you continue to ignore reasonable objections and continue to push the same text, which editors have already indicated clearly and concisely what is wrong with it. Justin talk 08:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's see if we can agree on a few facts and then we'll try to agree on a text as neutral as possible:

• Isthmus: Britain holds de facto control over the southern part of the isthmus since the mid 19th century. Britain claims its sovereignty based on its continuous occupation. Spain claims its sovereignty arguing that the ToU didn't include the cession of the isthmus and, although it has allowed the UK its temporary use (to treat some epidemy in the mid 19th century), it has never ceded its sovereignty and has periodically asked Britain to leave that territory.
• Territorial waters: Britain holds some de facto control over the waters nearer (I'm not sure at all that up to 3 NM, does anybody have some info?) Gibraltar (periodically interrupted by Spanish fishermen, Security forces...) Britain claims the sovereignty of the waters up to the 3 NM limit, arguing that both conventional (the UN convention) and customary international law support this position. Spain (I'm not sure that it doesn't hold some de facto control over some of the waters inside the 3 NM limit, anybody? ) claims the sovereignty of all the waters around Gibraltar (except inside the port) arguing that the ToU didn't allow Britain to gain control outside Gibraltar.
• Airspace: I don't know who holds de facto control (any reliable source?). Both the UK and Spain claim sovereignty with the same arguments as with the territorial waters.

Do we all agree on these facts before we start summarising them? (if someone has some additional info to share, it will be welcome) -- Imalbornoz (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Repeat the same position, thats always a good consensus building ploy.

Why mention Utrecht at all? A 300 year old treaty? The dispute is over the isthmus and territorial waters, thats pretty much all that needs mentioning. Everything else is details that go into the Dispute article. A few sentences at most is needed. Justin talk 20:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

There is of course a rational argument that nothing else matters enough to be worth including here. Personally I'd go with Pfainuk's list, the one that we've been working on. Does anyone else agree with Justin's suggestion - though we don't yet have a text - that we can leave out the T of U and several other points? Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:37, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

BTW if you're going to revert to restore a text that is in violation of wikipedia's policies, it would be better to do a complete revert and restore the NPOV tag. Justin talk 21:50, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

San Roque and reasons to leave Gibraltar yet again

Yet again the mention of San Roque as the main destination (with current implications for at least one national narrative) of the Spanish inhabitants of Gibraltar has been removed. So has the main reason for the evacuation, namely fear after riotous invasion and atrocities committed under guarantees of safety. A passing allusion and a minor speculation replaces this. I appreciate that these facts do not sit well with the other national narrative, but they are multiply-referenced and have achieved a consensus.

I have therefore reverted from: "During the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar on 4 August 1704. Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack led most of the townspeople to leave."

to

"On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided certain,assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain."

Those coming new to this issue may wish to check the quotations currently available at User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar. Those who wish to reprise the arguments so far may wish to trawl the archives. The specific issue here is a major theme from October 2009.

Justin, you suggest administrative involvement as the best course to solve this issue. I find it quite refreshing to agree with you. It's very nearly a year since I joined this discussion, responding to one of the requests for comments. I came in at Talk:Gibraltar/Archive 16, and from well before then the archives record acrimonious and ultimately vain attempts to include you in the consensus. As I have previously argued, I do not feel that you have sufficient competence to contribute usefully to this page. We have had many months of filibustering and disruption, with good editors and wellmeaning mediators being driven away and those who stay the course wasting huge amounts of time. Short of decisive intervention, I see no reason to anticipate improvement. Richard Keatinge (talk) 22:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)