Talk:TM-Sidhi program

Hendel

It's not clear that we should be citing this lawsuit, given that the appellate court made no mention of religion. (Will Beback said at RSN that a lower court judgment is a primary source and an appellate court judgement a secondary source, and has often said that we should prefer secondary sources.) So already it's marginal. And it seems especially problematic that we state the claims, since they weren't upheld. If we're allowed to state the claims, then why wouldn't we detail the claims in the Skolnick suit? TimidGuy (talk) 10:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we should mention the case at all, unless we can find better sources for it. I suppose that it was added in order to say that a federal judge called TM-Sidhi a religious practice, which is significant. But apparently the declaration is unnoticed by any secondary sources, probably because it was dismissed. I've searched and can't find anything. Pending better sources, I agree that it should be removed.   Will Beback  talk  10:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Will. I'll remove it. TimidGuy (talk) 11:06, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe that wa precipitous. We haven't consulted with the editors who added it. Maybe I should revert your edits and say "RSN is thataway". If not, why not?   Will Beback  talk  11:42, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

No response?   Will Beback  talk  18:49, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

self-published sources

John Hagelin organized the Invincible America Assembly in Fairfield, Iowa on July 23, 2006 as a demonstration of the Maharishi Effect. Hagelin said in a press release announcing the project that "for the United States, with a population of just over 300 million, the required number of peace-creating experts is 1,730". According to the Global Good News website "on 28 November 2006, the United States achieved invincibility and are stabilizing the number of Yogic Flyers—rising from 1,600 to 1,730—assembled at the Invincible America Assembly in Fairfield, Iowa". In addition, Hagelin's Institute for Science Technology and Public Policy web site says that the Invincible America Assembly in Iowa "is rising quickly toward its target of 2,500". Daily tallies of participants in the project are maintained on the Invincible America Assembly website.

Hagelin predicted that when the number of assembly participants reached 2,500, America would have a major drop in crime, and would see the virtual elimination of all major social and political woes in the United States. He said that the Assembly was responsible for the Dow Jones Industrial Average reaching a record high of 14,022 in July 2007, and predicted that the Dow would top 17,000 within a year. On the first trading day after the Assembly began in July 2006, the Dow had closed at 11,051.05, up 182.67 from 10,868.38. In the weeks that followed the S&P 500 as well as the Domini 400 Social Equity Index rose an average of 0.7% per week in contrast to a weekly average decrease of .06% going back to 2000. The Dow failed to reach 17,000 as predicted and peaked on October 9, 2007 at 14,164.53. The Dow then declined, closed under 7,000 in March 2009 for the first time since May 1997, and did not again close above 10,868 until March 23, 2010.

It has been suggested that self-published sources should be avoided. This article makes extensive use of movement websites and press releases in the section on Demonstration Projects. Seems like the last two paragraphs in that section should be deleted. TimidGuy (talk) 10:45, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Is this the material to which you're referring? It looks like the first paragraph provides relevant material from movement sources to give context to the independent secondary sources in the second paragraph.   Will Beback  talk  11:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Is there support for this rationale in a guideline? Note that much of the second paragraph also consists of self-published sources. TimidGuy (talk) 10:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Bloomberg, Telegraph, Reuters, Wall Street Journal. Those aren't self-published sources. What exactly is the problem here?   Will Beback  talk  19:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

So then you don't mind if we delete those that are self-published? TimidGuy (talk) 10:06, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I do mind. You haven't explained your point. Which sources do you want to delete and why? What's the problem you're trying to fix?   Will Beback  talk  11:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

It has been suggested that self-published sources should be avoided. (See recent discussion on TM movement Talk.) The first paragraph above cites two press releases and the Invincible America Assembly website . These are self-published sources and should be removed. Is there a guideline that supports their use? TimidGuy (talk) 10:37, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Shermer book

The last paragraph says this: "In his book, Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time, skeptic Michael Shermer says that the Hundredth monkey effect, which he says is unsupported by evidence, is used as empirical proof of the Maharishi Effect.[109]"

But Shermer doesn't specifically say that the TM proponents use the hundredth monkey effect as empirical support. And in fact they never have. Not a single study mentions hundredth monkey. This should be removed. TimidGuy (talk) 10:43, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I believe he was saying that it's the same concept, related to a shared consciousness field. Like any passage, I'm sure we can improve it. I'll go dig up the source and recheck it.   Will Beback  talk  19:37, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I found it on the GB. [1] I've rewritten the text to shorten it and focus it on the main point of the comparison which is saying that the shared trait is collective consciousness.   Will Beback  talk  11:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Another article on Chissano

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/10/world/beatles-guru-offers-nirvana-to-mozambique.html

I would like to add to the article where Mozambique is discussed..."Mr. Chissano has credited meditation with ending Mozambique's 16-year civil war and the century's worst drought." as well as...a quote from him..."Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects."

--Uncreated (talk) 22:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's the current text:

• In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation. Two years later he ordered all military and police recruits to meditate twice a day. Over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM-Sidhi techniques. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped. Chissano also attributed the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO in part to the practice of TM in his country.

I suppose the we could say, "Chissano also attributed the ending of a drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'" How's that?   Will Beback  talk  23:10, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

That sounds pretty good Will...Maybe though we could say something more about the drought...? These two articles below describe it as a "40 year drought...and "the worst drought in living memory". Describing it as a drought I don't think does justice to it. The source article itself describes it as the "century's worst drought".

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-03-02/local/me-1630_1_mozambique-drought http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/15/world/new-mozambique-ordeal-drought-comes-atop-war.html --Uncreated (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The problem with expanding this is that it is just one person's view. The rains that ended the drought led to devastating floods and cholera. The practice of TM-Sidhi continued to 2001, but the natural disasters didn't end in 1992. It's fine to give Chissano's claim brielfy, but let's not belabor an unbalanced, partisan view.   Will Beback  talk  00:06, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

We should accurately reflect reliable sources.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:58, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Chissano's statements are a reliable source for his own views, but not for anything else. We already summarize his views - we don't need to go overboard.   Will Beback  talk  20:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

For myself I don't see mentioning the size of the drought to be going overboard. The New York Times mentioned it...I dont see why we cant. Also Tobias Dai the Minister of Defence in Mozambique also credited the group meditation with averting the drought. --Uncreated (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Did TM-Sidhi cause the flood too? The problem is that Chissano is a partisan source. We're only giving one view of the issue. There are no independent views of this issue. Let's keep it short.   Will Beback  talk  01:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I am unaware that floods took place at the end of the drought. Did the TM-Sidhi cause the floods? I don't know the source doesnt say if it did or not...Is Chissano a Partisan source? Does thinking the Maharishi effect works make you Partisan? From what I understand Chissano is a highly respected politician in Africa. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10471626. Like I said, if its good enough for the New York Times...However if we wanted to give a different view we could add the view of the deputy defence minister who didnt believe meditation stopped the war or the drought. "The new deputy defence minister, Henrique Banze, confirms that TM is no longer compulsory in the army, although the practice continues in some units. "My personal opinion is that transcendental meditation and yogic flying did not end the war," he said. "But then I never tried it." Though we would want to mention that his superior did believe it worked if we were to add his comments.--Uncreated (talk) 06:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Despite what the president said, TM-Sidhi didn't end the drought. Rain did. The same rain also caused a flood, and the flood caused cholera. Cause and effect. TM-Sidhi may have caused the rain, but if so it can't escape responsibility for the rain's other effects. It's apparent that this is a complicated issue and so I suggest we just leave the existing text as it is.   Will Beback  talk  07:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

(undent) Complicated or not, we must use the text from RS. --BweeB (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

We already do. The existing text is adequate.   Will Beback  talk  08:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The Source says "century's worst drought"...to describe it simply as a drought does not accurately summarize the source in my opinion. I think what you originally suggested was excellent, lets just add "40 year" to it... "Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'"--Uncreated (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

We have many sources which say many things. We have some sources that say a little but which we use a lot. Like this one. We have other sources which say a lot but that we use only a little. Nancy de Herrera Cooke's Beyond Gurus has a chapter or two on TM-Sidhi and its origins, for example. If editors here really believe that "We should accurately reflect reliable sources" and "Complicated or not, we must use the text from RS" then I welcome that approach and look forward to adding much more such text in the future.   Will Beback  talk  09:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I must admit I am confused by your post...? I am not familiar with the book you are referring to. If it conforms to the requirements of Wikipedia go for it...--Uncreated (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Not that I can see that the floods have anything to do with this particular point regarding how we summarize the source text...but didnt the floods occur in 2000? I dont think the Maharishi effect was even in effect anymore...the army which had been practising the TM Sidhi had been broken up due to the mandate by the UN in 94-95...--Uncreated (talk) 08:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. We think it's important to tell readers that an otherwise respected former president of an African nation, and an avid TM practitioner, has said publicly that this meditation program changed the weather in his country? It's an exceptional claim but the NYT is a highly reliable source. The Mozambique experiment was the biggest in the history of TM-Sidhi. It deserves considerable space, even of the TM movement never wrote about it. I don't see any reason for censoring it. Let's add it, and all other sourced claims.   Will Beback  talk  09:28, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I think adding these comments by Chissano are notable. If you feel like other material should be in the article...why wouldnt you add it? For the record I understand the movement has printed materials concerning Mozambique and the instruction of the army. I just didnt think it would be considered a reliable source since it was published by the movement...For the record the news papers have not accurately reported how many people were taught the TM sidhies and taught TM. According to the movement documentation only 3000 were taught the TM sidhies and about 15000 were taught Transcendental Meditation. This took place in 1993. By the end of 1994 the UN resolution called for the disbandment of the army which 3000 of had been trained...so in effect the "greater" maharishi effect ended in 1994. Small groups continued practising but no where near the 3000 that had been taught.--Uncreated (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

We need to use reliable secondary sources, where possible. --BweeB (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Am I right in concluding that we have consensus for the following? "Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'"--Uncreated (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but no. If he is talking about the TM technique, instead of the TM-Sidhi program, then this isn't the right article for it. We need to make clear that he says it was "Yogic Flying", not just TM, that led to the changes.   Will Beback  talk  23:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay. The guardian article describes yogic flying as an advanced form of TM. The NYT article just uses the generic term "meditation". How about this?

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation. Two years later he ordered all military and police recruits to meditate twice a day. Over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped." Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM Sidhi's in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'--Uncreated (talk) 00:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

The dates don't make sense. Chissano personally learned TM in 1992, and in 1994 he ordered the army, etc, to learned and practice it and TM-Sidhi. But in 1993, a year earlier, he said that crime was down. Was that simply because he alone was practicing? If we're going to spend so much space on this, let's get it right. Let's make it clear what happened when.   Will Beback  talk  04:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

You're right will. Unfortunate the Guardian article is not clear, it initially says:

The president discovered TM, the teaching of the Beatles' guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, in 1992, shortly before the end of Mozambique's 16-year guerrilla war. It was no coincidence. "First I started the practice of transcendental meditation myself, then introduced the practice to my close family, my cabinet of ministers, my government officers and my military," Mr Chissano, a former Marxist bush-fighter, is on record as saying in literature published by Maharishi devotees. "The result has been political peace and balance in nature in my country." But then goes on to say: The attractions of this to Mr Chissano and his generals seemed clear. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. More than 16,000 soldiers were taught yogic flying and TM, according to Mozambique's defence minister. So were 30,000 Mozambicans, according to the Maharishi movement. In October, 1994, the deputy defence minister of the day, Antonio Hama Thay, wrote to the national military school ordering that, "transcendental meditation must be an integral part of the curriculum of the cadets in the school, as a requirement for them to become officers".

The NYT article(Feb 1994) says: The Maharishi's advance on Mozambique began about two years ago with a team from Europe and India that instructed 1,500 Mozambicans in meditation training. The Government has allocated the instructors a house near the presidential villa where they conduct classes for military and civil service officials and their families.

So I guess the NYT article is referring to the first paragraph of the Guardian article. However I think the newspapers are confused in regards to the numbers learning. I have a copy of a speech given by Tobias Dai, the minister of defence at the time that was given at the end of 1994 and he describes that in total 15000 people were taught TM (i understand in the military and Government) but only 3000 of them were trained in yogic flying. Its a hard copy, published in a 23 page brochure by Maharishi University of Management Holland. So I don't think we would be able to use it.

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.' During the next two years over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped." Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM Sidhi's in his country. How is this?--Uncreated (talk) 08:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's put it into chronological order. I guess that would be something more like this (using the same basic text).

• In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families. Chissano attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM-Sidhi. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.' During the next two years over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped."

Can we add the citations? That'll make it easier to double check that we're summarizing them correctly.

This version from Will seems acceptable. --BweeB (talk) 08:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Good...how do the citations work? I can try putting them in...but is it easier to put them in when we put it in the article?...or does it not make a difference?--Uncreated (talk) 10:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

We can put them in the same way as we do in the article. Just add {{reflist|close=1}} at the end to make the references appear.   Will Beback  talk  10:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families . Chissano attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO , which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM-Sidhi . In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.' During the next two years over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped."

--Uncreated (talk) 12:11, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that helps pin down what we're saying. The Salon source doesn't look that useful - it just repeats what the other sources say, and may be copied from them, unless we want to add the part about Chissano doing yoga. OTOH, the plan to turn over acreage to MAHEDCO is relevant and should be mentioned briefly. We can also add the dates of the RENAMO treaty and the end of the drought. I'll post a draft shortly.   Will Beback  talk  21:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Cool.--Uncreated (talk) 22:23, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry it's taking so long. I found many additional sources on Chissano, etc., and am working through them. I'll post something this weekend.   Will Beback  talk  22:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I just discovered that one or more of Chissano's children, plus some children of his associates, attended MUM in Fairfield in the mid-1990s. If any editors here knew them, or Chissano himself, they should either disclose that fact or refrain from participating in the editing or discussions related to Chissano.   Will Beback  talk  19:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Reliable Source

Would this site be considered a reliable source? http://www.beirut-online.net/portal/index.php?id=1 --Uncreated (talk) 22:38, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

We already discussed it. Talk:Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Press_release. No. it isn't reliable. It's mostly just a portal, reprinting material published elsewhere. The original sources may be reliable.   Will Beback  talk  23:19, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I was unaware it had come up on another talk page. The Article I was thinking to use was this one...but the author doesn't look reputable. http://www.beirut-online.net/portal/article.php?id=5050. I thought to use it since he quotes a number of independent academics on their thoughts about the Maharishi effect. I did find a useful article that we could use in relation to the Merseyside research though. https://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui/bitstream/2134/936/1/1998_Zero_Tolerance_Policing.pdf--Uncreated (talk) 00:21, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

That's the same article we discussed on the other page. It's just press releases.

I assume that the Police Foundation is a journal. If so the article would qualify as a reliable source. It looks like it has usable assertions about the response to the Merseyside study.   Will Beback  talk  00:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction? (scientific views)

Should the phrase "generally considered" be replaced by something else like "assumed to be generally considered"? The sentence seems like a contradiction and intellectually shallow.

Or, "for reason's not identified in reliable sources, scientists have not widely confirmed or denied..."

_*_*_*_* Quote:

These assertions are generally considered unproven by the scientific and skeptic community[citation needed], though empirical studies have been published in peer-reviewed academic journals.

--Ihaveabutt (talk) 13:20, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Since the sentence has been tagged for a while without any source provided, the whole thing should probably just be deleted. TimidGuy (talk) 14:59, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

There are sources in the "Critiques and responses" section. We can add one or two of those. I'd object to removing it, which would violate NPOV.   Will Beback  talk  18:14, 11 June 2011 (UTC)