Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Agent00f

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• Agent00f (talk · contribs · logs)

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Anyone is welcome to endorse any view, but do not change other people's views. Under normal circumstances, a user should not write more than one view.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct and have previously attempted and failed to resolve the dispute. Only users who certify this request should edit the "Statement of the dispute" section. Other users may present their views in the other sections below.

Cause of concern

In the 3 weeks (From April 23rd 2012) that Agent00f has started taking an interest in Mixed Martial Arts based articles, there has been a complete stagnation of the process of forming a concensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability. From personal attacks, to asserting conspiracies out to burn all coverage of MMA events to the ground, to excessively long postings designed to derail conversations, to outright disdain for community standards. After having several trips to various administrator noticeboards, they still refuse to accept community standards and consensus. Arguing on all points from WP:ITSUSEFUL/WP:ILIKEIT/WP:OTHERSTUFF and anything else to filibuster the process of developing a workable guideline for how we can include MMA event coverage that still conforms with WP standards.

Applicable policies and guidelines

1. WP:NPA
2. WP:CIVILITY
3. WP:TE
4. WP:AGF
5. WP:SOAPBOX
6. WP:NOT
7. WP:CON
8. WP:GAME
9. WP:IDHT

Desired outcome

Agent00f will:

• desist from making intentionally disruptive postings;
• cease all personal attacks;
• cease filibustering;
• come into line with generally held community guidelines in terms of conduct; and
• post in such a manner that editors without copious amounts of free time will be able to read their debating points.

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

1. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive184#User:Agent00f reported by Mtking (Result: blocked)
   1. WT:MMANOT#Moving Forward, Without the Bullshit - Thread that was the inception of the 3RR report
2. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive750#User:Hasteur and User:Mtking versus User:Agent00f
3. WP:ANI#More disruption involving MMA
4. WT:MMANOT

Demonstrations of Unhelpful commentary

1. [1]
2. [2] - Using outside comparisons to make the text more dense after original posting.
3. [3] - Response to an admin who asks Agent00f to assume good faith; claims that the "3 editors" are mentally ill.
4. [4] - Response to same admin who suggested that a Deletion nomination could be a good faith action. Response uses pejorative language to poison the viewpoint the Admin gave.
5. [5] - Response to a user in good standing who asked Agent00f to stop making tangential/Ad-Hom attacks on editors. Agent00f proceeds to launch into a long winded "Let's look at this from a logic perspective" instead of actually saying anything about the request.
6. [6] - Asserts that the change proceeding forward is "placating an idle bureaucracy"
7. [7] - After a editor points out specific phrases that are attacks, Agent00f claims that they are facts and posts a unwinable challange to contest the statements.
8. [8] - User soapboxes that a warning delivered appropriately is a threat against them after the comment very clearly states that it is not a threat.
9. [9] - Calls editors who in good faith nominate articles to AfD bureaucrats.
10. [10] Violation of WP:AGF - claims that an editor does not know anything about MMA and can have no meaningful opinion, apparently based on said editor disagreeing with Agent00f.
11. [11] - Violation of WP:AGF and WP:NPA, in claiming that the "3 editors" have a personal vendetta, are ignorant and are throwing tantrums, and further calls for the "troublemakers" to be banned.
12. [12] - Violation of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL: claims that his opponents have "questionable," "abusive" motives.
13. [13] "Since you don't seem to be in habit of giving honest or straightforward replies" being the first of several personal attacks in this diff. (NB: As of this point, the above diffs were among the first two dozen of Agent00f's non-minor edits on Wikipedia, within his first two days of regular editing. More diffs can of course be provided, but at this rate, it's evident that WP:AGF, WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL violations constitute the bulk of his editing.)

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute.

1. Hasteur (talk) 01:20, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
2. Ravensfire (talk) 01:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
3. Newmanoconnor (talk) 04:16, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Additional users endorsing this cause for concern.

1. TreyGeek (talk) 01:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
2. When I engaged Agent on my talk page, we had a great dialogue open up. It seems like when he encounters resistance, he starts with the battlefield mentality. Ishdarian 02:05, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
3. Chillllls (talk) 03:12, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
4. Ravenswing 06:03, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Questions

Any users may post questions in this section.  Answers should be reserved for those certifying the dispute.

Q. Help me understand here. I saw a deletion review of UFC 27 (link will be live for a little while yet). It looked no different from UFC 26 and UFC 28 except in external links. There are zero sources anywhere except external links, which are all promoters of the event one way or another. What policy or guideline (not essay) tells us that we shouldn't delete and merge 80%-90% of these articles? JJB 03:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A.

• Based solely upon the current state of UFC 26 and UFC 28, there is nothing to suggest why these articles should not be deleted. I have not done any search for truly independent sources for these events. It is possible that such sources could be found. With the inclusion of such sources, they might possibly pass Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to be kept. --TreyGeek (talk) 05:05, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse TreyGeek's Answer The real reason is that as a "Gentlemen's Agreement" most of the editors involved in the negotiations to establish a MMA centric set of guidelines have (for the most part) refrained from nominating for deletion any of the articles. That other processes are being used by MMA Advocates (Like the above mentioned deletion review) to get a second round of AfD to try and argue their article back to life. The Gentleman's Agreement does not cover such cases, and from what I have observed, those of us who did comment commented on the validity of the procedure being executed (which is the purpose of deletion review. Hasteur (talk) 06:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Q. It would seem this should be an open-and-shut case to those of us unfamiliar with MMA (but who think highly of Chuck Norris and Jesse Ventura). Who (plural) is advocating in favor of keeping every single article and what are their means of advocating for that? JJB 03:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A.

• Jessie Ventura is the man politically and wrestle-ically(?). Seriously, a large portion of the MMA fan community (which may not be the same as the Wikipedia editor community) feels that all UFC event articles should remain on Wikipedia. There is a smaller group of the MMA fan community who feel that even articles for lesser known MMA promotions should also remain. When looking at AfD discussions, rarely is there a valid attempt at advocating keep for event articles using Wikipedia policies and guidelines. While, this isn't quite what you were asking, there is a, possibly, small portion of the MMA fan community (such as myself) who feel that MMA event articles (UFC or from other promotions) should have an article if they meet Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, including WP:ROUTINE, WP:SPORTSEVENT, WP:DIVERSE. --TreyGeek (talk) 05:05, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
• There have been various advocates that have lobbied for keeping every single MMA article. User:BigzMMA was one of the loudest previous advocates of this position, however their deliberate incivility/homophobic attacks/sockpuppetry caused them to be blocked indefinitely. Hasteur (talk) 06:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Q. Now I've at least glanced at every paragraph on this page and I still have no idea what the dispute is about. Aside from the "delete most" view, what other view would there be to get in such an argument with the "keep all" view that there is such confusing battling over one ambiguous notability rule versus a longer ambiguous notability rule? What two views is the dispute between? JJB 03:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A.

• An ongoing attempt has been made to construct a set of guidelines specifically related to MMA event notability (to modify WP:MMAEVENT). These notability guidelines could stand on their own, be added to WP:MMANOT, or potentially to WP:NSPORTS to specify how MMA events should be treated in terms of Wikipedia's notability requirements. User:Agent00f, whom this RfC is about, often posts in this discussion long responses to comments that, to some, don't address the issue at hand. The user has claimed they have offered their own proposal for WP:MMAEVENT, however, if such a proposal was made it is difficult to tell in the walls of text that often accompany the user's comments. However, to several users (myself included) it appears that User:Agent00f is simply attempting to derail constructive discussion of the issue with their seemingly long-winded comments. In addition, User:Agent00f often complains of warnings to their talk page, mentions at WP:ANI (and I would expect this RfC) to be harassment and a personal attack against them. Personally, this is a weak argument considering the truly personal attacks and harassment some members of the Wikipedia community have had to endure as the result of enforcing Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --TreyGeek (talk) 05:05, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse TreyGeek's statement In addition, good faith requests to strike offensive commentary and pejorative labeling has been met with continued and enlarged personal attacks. Hasteur (talk) 06:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Q.

A.

Response

{This section is reserved for the opinions and views of the user whose conduct is disputed. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but only the person named in the dispute should change or edit the view in this section.}

Response to concerns

"In the 3 weeks (From April 23rd 2012) that Agent00f has started taking an interest in Mixed Martial Arts based articles, there has been a complete stagnation of the process of forming a concensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability"

This is a topic which had been stagnant for many many months prior. For the entire duration before I joined, practically nothing's gotten done, despite the active participation of many editors. Most of those editors have left in the interim (from I can gather from the logs) due to frustration and disgust. Since I've joined, there's been at least an attempt at a two-sentence rule clarification, a great leap fwd for the process no doubt. Hasteur's attribution of causality here has no factual basis.

When I made the observation that the common denominator of the string of past failures was only 3 editors who dominate the conservation to the exclusion of other voices, this led them to start a continued assault and pattern of harassment, open threats, and many attempts at frivolous ANI's. Note on the contrary that I've not engaged in these deplorable acts. If there's been some kind of battle going, it's been targeted at me. I've done what I can to defend myself. Which leads us to:

"From personal attacks, to asserting conspiracies out to burn all coverage of MMA events to the ground, to excessively long postings designed to derail conversations...."

The afflicted parties feel the previous statement is a personal attack even though their long-standing participation is a plain fact. That they've been setting the agenda is also empirical fact borne by a simple read at the talk page. I've never claimed it's any kind of "conspiracy" but rather attributed the main problem to systemic issues which allowed a concerted few to effectively block the views of less concerted stakeholder in this matter. (Though it's worth pointing out the oddity of 3 folks who're consistent on one side of an AfD's campaign on a subject guiding the reconciliation process.) The frustration and helplessness this causes on the part of other previous participant is what's poisoned the process. Instead of a casual environment of serious work mixed in with some humor necessary to motivate volunteer orgs, everything has turned caustic for anyone not readily onboard with their prolonged "leadership". 95% of the time is forced on politics, which is why nothing substantive related to the sport ever gets done.

As an aside, their other accusations of "personal attacks" might include my claim that actively AfDing while the pages in question are under review is an act of poor faith, and some other obvious statements, but frankly I don't see how these claims are controversial.

"Arguing on all points from WP:ITSUSEFUL/WP:ILIKEIT/WP:OTHERSTUFF and anything else to filibuster the process of developing a workable guideline for how we can include MMA event coverage that still conforms with WP standards"

The reality is that I'm the only person left in the discussion with much of any domain expertise. This is not an exaggeration. Literally every one of the perhaps dozen or more regular subject contributors are gone, which should give great pause for thought/concern. Given how many times this has happened before (though most vote with their feet), the problem common to them all is clearly not me. In any case, I've analyzed the weaknesses in the previous plans which made them unworkable and laid out clear and concise sport-relevant corrections. The posts on the current RfC are but a sample. However, these have all been ignored/dismissed if not worse. By worse I mean accusations of filibustering (with attendant AN threats), claims they're not understandable despite no requests for clarification, etc. I've been more than happy to spend time explaining to reasonable editors who don't engage in the same disingenuous behavior.

In summary, as I've explain numerous times before the problems with this process are somewhat onerous and non-trivial. This superficial attempt to scapegoat me, just as many others have been scapegoated and driven off before, is not going to fix what's been plaguing this extended and tumultuous affair. Instead, I'm willing to work towards a lasting solution which starts with mitigating these ridiculous attempts on me, and focuses on the meat of the matter.

Other Notes:

1. Hasteur's been up to the same old habits of canvasing mostly for sympathetic views (eg previous ANI's). Note sport-interested parties are not notified, instead focusing on those who relate to one side of a wiki-insider vs subject-enthusiast divide, even editors who've only been participating for a day (only joined due to link from a hostile AN) and have little knowledge of the background. It's quite ironic to accuse me of a battlefield mentality given this behavior.
2. I have no idea why Ravensfire is in the list of users who've tried resolve the dispute. I've only seen him on the talk page once. Agent00f (talk) 04:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Response to Links Above

I can reply to any of the links above, but in the interest of time, I'll just do so if anyone has specific concerns. Feel free to ask, as always. Agent00f (talk) 08:55, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Example picked at random:

1. [14] Violation of WP:AGF - claims that an editor does not know anything about MMA and can have no meaningful opinion, apparently based on said editor disagreeing with Agent00f.

I'm not sure why any assumption of faith or anything for that matter is necessary here. First, Mtking admittedly knows nothing about MMA as a subject from comments prior to this. Just as for example I don't know anything about fashion modeling. Both are plain factual statements so I'm not sure what the problem is here. Second, when someone lacks any knowledge of a subject, it's difficult if not impossible for them to write good domain-specific guidelines for it. For example, I would be terrible at writing rules to govern fashion entries. Again, not sure what this has to do with faith. Also note I've explained this before, but in another case of IDHT, Ravenswing is repeating this here despite ignoring my previous (same) explanation. Agent00f (talk) 08:55, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Other Relevant Facts

This is an extensive list of simple observable facts concerning the case. The errors (generally minor) TreyGeek graciously pointed out in the discussion below that have been corrected in the original so it should be fairly accurate. Far as I can tell, no one has challenged the accuracy of the statements presented in the list, only complained that they show some editors in a poor light. Facts often do this; such is life. Agent00f (talk) 08:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Applicable policies and guidelines

List the policies and guidelines that apply to the response.

Users endorsing this response

1. Agent00f (talk) 02:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Questions

Any users may post questions in this section.  Answers should be reserved for the user named in the dispute.

Q. Help me understand here. I saw a deletion review of UFC 27 (link will be live for a little while yet). It looked no different from UFC 26 and UFC 28 except in external links. There are zero sources anywhere except external links, which are all promoters of the event one way or another. What policy or guideline (not essay) tells us that we shouldn't delete and merge 80%-90% of these articles? JJB 03:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A. The events, along with with promotion information and fighter history, constitute a cohesive set of resources for many users on wiki. For example, someone interested in either a previous or future contest between two fighters can research their previous histories against similar opponents (in style, size, age), details like dates/venue/pay/etc, each cross-referencing to the other. Taking intrinsic elements away from this coherent and orthogonal set of resources subtracts more from the whole more than the value of each item. This a collection which has been built up into its existing synergistic form over many years, usually garnering top hits on search engines, and was not an area of problem for anyone until the recent indiscriminate AfD campaigns against the subject as a whole. An important point to note is that only a small portion of the AfD's (which cost nothing themselves) need to be successful for the useful of the resource to be destroyed, and this can be used as leverage.

Q. It would seem this should be an open-and-shut case to those of us unfamiliar with MMA (but who think highly of Chuck Norris and Jesse Ventura). Who (plural) is advocating in favor of keeping every single article and what are their means of advocating for that? JJB 03:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A. None of the tens of thousand of users and quite a few editors (2k+ pages) want this resource to be destroyed for the cause of "just following the rules". Of course this doesn't mean that they desire to avoid rules altogether, only that those rules be sane and amiable to a stable future. The problem is that solutions offered to us (by the AfD clan, yes all of them support deletion) are all simplistic, ambiguously open to future AfD's, and terrible in design. The affair has been at an impasse because a very small group which dominate the agenda disallow any alternative plan to be discussed, and prefer to silence critics by playing politics over concentrating on the nuts and bolts (though to be fair, they lack the domain knowledge to work on any relevant details). What you see here is typical of the "work" they generally engage in and are best at.

Q. Now I've at least glanced at every paragraph on this page and I still have no idea what the dispute is about. Aside from the "delete most" view, what other view would there be to get in such an argument with the "keep all" view that there is such confusing battling over one ambiguous notability rule versus a longer ambiguous notability rule? What two views is the dispute between? JJB 03:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A. The basic dispute is that the current RfC plan is essentially useless to any lasting solution since it doesn't address any of the fundamental problems in AfD or otherwise. This doesn't mean the previous rules are better, just that people are fed up with terrible plans being forced from up on high onto the actual stakeholders. This has been the situation for many months. I've tried to feed new ideas into the process but have been rejected like all those before me.

• Also, I don't pretend to speak for the entire userbase, though I suppose many users seem to commend my efforts on this and consider me as somewhat of a spokesperson because they themselves often fear speaking out due to threats/harassment and real possibility of retribution (afd,etc) against their work.

Q. What do you think forms the basis of the assertions by several editors that you demonstrate WP:IDHT behavior? Your comments in the AN/I threads indicate that such an assertion should not apply to you. Do you think that this is a failure of your "opponents" to properly understand your viewpoint? Chillllls (talk) 04:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A. I feel I understand those others' POV perfectly fine since it's rarely complicated. I reply to anything addressed to me in earnest and you'll find a near perfect track record of this in the history. OTOH, those others sometimes claim that I'm impossible to understand, generally after the fact with no expressed desire for clarification or otherwise. If you're looking for selective replying and similar DISRUPT behavior, I'm certainly not the source of it. As to why they think my words or ideas are obtuse, maybe it's because some idea are intrinsically non-trivial? I can guess, but I don't really know what's going on their heads.

Additional views

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Proposed solutions

This section is for all users to propose solutions to resolve this dispute.  This section is not a vote and resolutions are not binding except as agreed to by involved parties.  

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